Metagame np: Stage 3 - Grace (Carracosta and Barbaracle Have Been Banned!)

[Akir]

I'm a little confused by this post. You're saying to not ban barb because all teams have a way around it. What ways do you suggest that aren't stressful on teambuilding? Sure Gourgeist is a counter, defensive Tangela if healthy, metang although it lacks recovery. Yes I can run scarf Raichu a lot. Other than that, what ways to deal with it are you talking about? You've basically said "it's manageable" with no examples. I can't really think of anything else outside of kadabra, and even that loses to dual chop. There's also a lot of stress on it being outsped by offense, but only scarfchu beats jolly barb which is far more threatening rn imo because it can beat scarf buck/simi which are getting far more common. Can you give any serious examples of how teams actually deal with barb in a way that doesn't make it totally overcentralizing?

Edit: Anty's response to this was that we have more checks than these, but they all have to be at high health. So you could probably mention Dusknoir or phys def missy, it's just much harder to keep them healthy than these checks

Well, I never said it wasn't broken nor did I say not to ban. All I said is that it wasn't unstoppable. You are right that all of the checks need to be high health, and therefore the opponent has to play extremely conservatively. My comparison to OU was not meant to be flattering: I hate that meta for being so mega-centric. Entire games come down to how you handle the opposing mega...if you even can. Then you just lose turn 1 if you can't.

As you said, Gourgeist is a pretty good counter. So is defensive Tangela, which if played well should always be near full health. I had a long conversation where someone stated that Tangela would always beat Barbaracle so long as there is death fodder available to heal it if needed...which is possible with defensive play but the fact that you have to do that is a problem. For offense, Scarfchu is definitely an option that also makes for a fast scarfer and switch priority, with Kadabra being a secondary option that is also good minus Dual Chop variants that are stopped by Grass. Offense is also starting to use Misdreavus a lot, which can also work as a one-shot check. Band Dusknoir can also work for revenge killer or just tank a single hit if at full. Tank Dusknoir can also take a hit better and burn. Machoke can also work if you invest enough bulk. There are also more obscure checks like Palpitoed, but then you are starting to reach. Generalized offensive pressure from the heavy hitters in the tier like Simipour or Machoke or Zebstrika can also keep Barbaracle from ever getting a good turn to smash. Sticky Web is also a more obscure answer that can inhibit Barbaracle. My main point was that Barb is more manageable than Carracosta and that there are options that deal with Barb that aren't entirely out of the way.

But seriously, I'm heavily on the fence on whether or not it is centralizing. My gut says yes, but there are arguments against it. I will say that Barbaracle reminds me a lot of Sneasel in the sense that everyone needs an answer to it. Everyone is saying to ban, so I wanted to play the opposite side some to flesh out the argument more to help decide. But seriously, the fact that you have to play SO conservatively from turn 1 JUST to only check Barb is crazy.

Calculations w/ assumed White Herb

Gourgeist

+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 304-364 (106.2 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tangela

+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 123-145 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 174-206 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 372-436 (130 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Raichu

252 SpA Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 260-308 (90.9 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Raichu Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 204-240 (71.3 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Kadabra

252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 159-187 (55.5 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Kadabra Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 424-500 (148.2 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes, I have seen that so I figured it was worth mention.

Misdreavus

+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 216 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 211-249 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 85-102 (29.7 - 35.6%) -- 25.4% chance to 3HKO
At least you can burn...or maybe Memento.

Dusknoir

+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusknoir: 217-256 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 165-195 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 266-314 (93 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 81-96 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 128-152 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Machoke

+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 160 HP / 24 Def Eviolite Machoke: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 320-378 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Palpitoad (to be thorough)

+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 97-114 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Palpitoad Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 156-186 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

General Offensive Pressure

252 SpA Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 169-199 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 315-374 (110.1 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 116-137 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 266-314 (93 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Rapidash Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 130-154 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 139-165 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And the list for this goes on similarly to that. These final calcs are just to show that Barbaracle can have difficulty getting a free turn to set up without a lot of support.

 

[White Hair Killer]

so first time making a post on PS, exciting stuff hopefully I can become more active soon :) But I've been playing a lot of PU ladder, and I have to say that Baarbaracle is a definite ban for me, since its really only dealt with by kadabra or bulky grass types, or machoke which works very well if its at full hp. Imo that is centralizing, plus if any of these mons have been damaged its all over.

Carra on the other hand is a bit of an issue for me, for two reasons. One is that as I'm sure many have mentioned, it is a great physical wall, and seeing it banned because of one set is pretty sad. Stoutland checks are pretty hard to come by these days, and if barb gets banned which it will, stout can just click return even easier. The birds like dodrio and such also get a lot better with barb gone and carra is a again a great option for this. with a load of nice options like knock off, aqua jet, scald, stone edge, sr, etc, it really is a diverse mon in a tier that appreciates some great variety.

The thing about Carra, too, is that it suffers a bit from 4MSS, since it has to pick between waterfall or ice beam, typically. ice beam obviously lets it beat bulky grasses, which is a niche over barb, but not running waterfall makes it lose out on kills from water coverage, probo, solrock, stunfisk, and a flinch chance from waterfall on kadabra etc, and often causes it to rely on stone edge to kill neautral mons. another thing is that even after ss its slow, needing prior damage on zeb to get the kill with aqua jet, and floatzel outspeeding and getting the kill, as well as jumpluff if its running naughty or adamant. again, machoke also beats it handily if its not running waterfall, which even then needs teh flinch chance

 

[DreamScream]

NOTE: I did not include calcs because there are so many great calcs on page 3 of this thread, I felt it was unnecessary to repeat them.

Carracosta:

Where do I even begin to talk about how good this thing is right now. First of all, shell smashers are very dangerous no matter what tier they are in and a lot of them get very redundant and are very predictable in team builder, so it is easy to work around them. Carracosta is the opposite of that notion. It can set up easily on a stupidly large portion of the game (granted, it can't set up on everything and there are plenty of good teams that have ways to work around this, but the evidence is uncanny) and the coverage moves are relatively unpredictable. It can go all physical or mixed with ice beam, has access to priority, and can run a plethora of items. The struggle with most shell smashers is that they have to run a focus sash or white herb to have any effect. Carracosta can pair shell smash with a life orb to great effect, thanks to Solid Rock. It can live weaker super effective hits and set up on things that normally deal a lot of damage to the turtle. Given how good Roselia and Piloswine are at stacking hazards and how good Jumpluff is at supporting shell smashers, it is easier than ever to build a team around Carracosta that can and will destroy everything. I won't include calcs because a lot of earlier posts have included plenty of great ones and I don't want to be redundant. Overall, this thing is really good and, once it sets up, has no counters (albeit a hand full of checks, but that doesn't matter after a certain point).
BAN

Barbaracle:

This thing is not as broken as his shell smash brother. What made Carracosta so dangerous was the unpredictability and sheer power. What makes this dangerous is just speed. Barbaracle only runs one set (SS, RS, SE, random coverage to hit grass types harder) and has no access to priority or any items other than white herb or focus sash. While Barbaracle can set up on that same large majority of the tier that Carracosta can, it is easier to kill due to priority. All good teams have a way to bring Barbaracle's health down to a point where a mach punch or aqua jet or sucker punch or shadow sneak or bullet punch can revenge it. Dominatio mentioned that PU doen't have a lot of priority users that can use these 5 priority moves, but I'm gonna run down a short list of mons that do get one of those moves that I find using to great effect, whether or not the other team is running a Barbaracle:

Monferno, Mightyena, Arbok, Gourgeist, Golem, Dusknoir, Basculin, Metang, Armaldo, Floatzel, Machoke, etc.

Those are just the ones that I use a lot and get a lot of mileage out of. While some of them might not be the best in the tier, they can put in a lot of work and do a great job at checking Barbaracle. In addition to this, hazard stack is as viable as ever in the PU tier thanks to Roselia and Piloswine setting up hazards with ease. Hazards can break a sash and make this mon a lot easier to kill before set up or with priority. I think I am in the minority on this one, but I am also against bans unless the mon is too disgustingly centralizing and broken and Barbaracle is an amazing mon and somewhat centralizing, but if I have to think more about killing Piloswine during team building than stopping this thing, it is not broken enough to warrant a ban.
NOT BAN

 

[Dundies]

Ever since the beginning of the suspect, I've pretty much been decided on what I think should happen to Carracosta, and that's to ban it. I posted earlier on this, but Carracosta puts pretty big restraints on teambuilding and finds setup opportunities pretty often; however, my mind has changed about Barbaracle a good bit at this point.

In my last post, I definitely overestimated both Barbaracle and Carracosta a lot, but I honestly think the meta would remain healthy with Carracosta gone and Barbaracle staying. To begin with, Barbaracle and Carracosta find many opportunities to set up, as they're both pretty damn bulky in general. I honestly think Carracosta is the main problem here, as it can take on almost any defensive check to the two smashers, basically discluding some really niche Pokemon such as Palpitoad and some sets that you usually wouldn't run, but are forced to run because of Carracosta to take care of it, such as specially defensive Tangela and mixed defensive Gourgeist-XL (honestly, mixed def Gourgeist-XL isn't bad at all, since you're only sacrificing 80 Defense EVs, which still leaves it extremely bulky, the problem with it is that Gourgeist-XL is honestly a bad fit for almost any offensive team). Jolly Barbaracle, though, can take on most of Carracosta's offensive checks at +2, such as scarfed Simipour, scarfed Sawsbuck, etc. But, with Carracosta booted from the tier, Barbaracle honestly pretty limited and it gains checks such as scarfed Raichu, defensive Tangela, and fully defensive Gourgeist-XL (that checked it even with SpD investment, but w/e) that were used much less because of the threat of Carracosta. Because teams won't have to account for priority Aqua Jet from a +2 Carracosta, other Pokemon become decent revenge killers to Barbaracle, such as Mach Punch Monferno. I would also argue Sir Kay's point that keeping Barbaracle makes it easier to keep Pokemon such as Stoutland and Dodrio in check (which it does a pretty good job of), but that's not in the best interest of the suspect. In conclusion, I've changed my mind on Barbaracle and it's a no ban for me. Sadly, based on the general consensus of this thread and the fact that a ton of people are bandwagoning other posts, I don't think it will stay.

 

[g]

Ok folks time is up and the qualifying phase for this PU suspect is now officially ended.

The tier leaders (galbia and Magnemite) have selected the people who will vote alongside the council among you applicants with the criteria of having a subjective part in addiction to the ladder requirements to find the most qualified people to take this important decision. Congratulations then to the members of The rotating council:
Deej Dy
cityfolk
Al'Akir
blalib
HJAD

However for everybody that hasn't met our set subjective requirement (don't hold grudges since we picked the best posters making sure the arguments were not banal or reproposed at all and we appreciated particularly who thought more "outside of the box" and approached the suspect test from different perspective) will also have a place in this vote as a part of the Ladder Representative Group™ which will be able to cast a collective vote (based on the percentual the members votes) that will count in total for 2/16 of the seats.
Congratulations to
The Ladder Representative Group™:
DnB
Taskr
GeneralAnnoyance
iChatot
DreamScream
ShuckleDeath

In the end the proportions will be 9 voters from the permanent council, 5 votes from the rotating council and 2 votes from the Ladder Representative Group™, for a total of 16 votes. A majority of 60% will be needed to ban either one of the suspect tested pokemon (10/16 votes by rounding up).

SUBMIT YOUR VOTE IN A FORUM PM TO ME AND MAGNEMITE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
the format to be followed is, with the example in case being a preference for the not ban option on Carracosta and the ban option on Barbaracle

Carracosta: Do Not Ban
Barbaracle: Ban

Thank you for your attention

mag edit: please excuse galbia's bold and bright red spelling mistake, he is italian :(

 

[termi]

Ok folks time is up and the qualifying phase for this PU suspect is now officially ended.

The tier leaders (galbia and Magnemite) have selected the people who will vote alongside the council among you applicants with the criteria of having a subjective part in addiction to the ladder requirements to find the most qualified people to take this important decision. Congratulations then to the members of The rotating council:
Deej Dy
cityfolk
Al'Akir
blalib
HJAD

However for everybody that hasn't met our set subjective requirement (don't hold grudges since we picked the best posters making sure the arguments were not banal or reproposed at all and we appreciated particularly who thought more "outside of the box" and approached the suspect test from different perspective) will also have a place in this vote as a part of the Ladder Representative Group™ which will be able to cast a collective vote (based on the percentual the members votes) that will count in total for 2/16 of the seats.
Congratulations to
The Ladder Representative Group™:
DnB
Taskr
GeneralAnnoyance
iChatot
DreamScream
ShuckleDeath

In the end the proportions will be 9 voters from the permanent council, 5 votes from the rotating council and 2 votes from the Ladder Representative Group™, for a total of 16 votes. A majority of 60% will be needed to ban either one of the suspect tested pokemon (10/16 votes by rounding up).

SUBMIT YOUR VOTE IN A FORUM PM TO ME AND MAGNEMITE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
the format to be followed is, with the example in case being a preference for the not ban option on Carracosta and the ban option on Barbaracle

Carracosta: Do Not Ban
Barbaracle: Ban

Thank you for your attention

mag edit: please excuse galbia's bold and bright red spelling mistake, he is italian :(

Hey from what I understood I was supposed to get reqs from that suspect tour, any word on that?

 

[g]

we decided that a second place in a 16 men tour when the set requisite for reqs would be winning a 32 men tour would be too little. we would also have had to let Kingler12345 vote soo...

 

[Anty]

Apparently we lost Piloswine and Raichu, but gained Pawniard and Gorebyess. I'm not too sure on the legitimacy but I do know that pawniard should be broken considering it was when it still had its two best counters, but pls don't start posting 'ban it' and stuff. Goreb looks interesting as its really strong, but is stopped by mons like rose/politoed and scarfers. Losing raichu isn't too much but pilo is huge, and I imagine jumpluff/zebstrika will shoot up in usage.

e: to clarify nothing is confirmed

 

[Magnemite]

Carracosta and Barbaracle have officially been banned to BL4 by a supermajority!

I'll post the votes and reasoning in a bit. Tagging The Immortal to remove them (and the coil) from the ladder. Thanks to all who participated!

 

[Funbot28]

I know nothing is official yet, but when the usage stats where leaked before, it showed that Gorebyss has a potential dropping. Would it be a great SS sweeper as Costa and Barbaracle?

 

[Anty]

I know nothing is official yet, but when the usage stats where leaked before, it showed that Gorebyss has a potential dropping. Would it be a great SS sweeper as Costa and Barbaracle?

It is hard to tell, but personally I don't think it will be quite as good (ie suspect worthy). Like costa/baracle, gorebyess is really strong however it lacks the ability to stop revenge killers unlike those two. Even with a timid nature at +2 it gets outsped by scarf mime and onwards (which even includes things like adamant scarf dodrio), so can be easily revenge killed by choice scarfers (priority too, but to a less extent). Despite this, gorebyess is really hard to wall due to its strength, for example:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 348-411 (82 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 320-377 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Gorebyss Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Politoed: 247-291 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (keep in mind toed cant do much other than try to toxic stall)
I guess it might not be able to run life orb if it needs white herb to set up, but it seems too early to say if it can/can't.

Interestingly enough, huntail and gorebyss might be similar to costa and barb as the two don't really share too many checks (i guess bulky waters if huntail doesn't run return) as huntail's sucker punch can stop most RKers.

Overall its a bit early to say much, but I can imagine that it would take the place of the smashers along side huntail.

 

[mael]

so yea, i was trying to build a team around life orb kadabra, cause it's so damn strong and i was thinking about ways to get kadabra in, and then i came across this leafeon set:

pathfinder (Leafeon) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Baton Pass
- Synthesis
- Yawn
- Leaf Blade

i found this stunningly useful at gaining momentum and walling certain mons. it's very similar to tangela in it's defensive role, the bulk isn't too different. i mean sure, tangela has regen, but in my opinion the defensive sets are equally viable, and i'd even prefer this in the current meta for one simple reason: it gets so many things in safely. in a metagame where lo kadabra, dodrio, simipour and many other frail offensive powerhouse form what's going on, getting them in at full health is an ability that one shouldn't underestimate. for example roselia is such a popular switch in for defensive leafeon and whenever i click baton pass it gives free switches to strong mons, gaining kills.

i really recommend you all to use this more. if you use spikes on your team you can even go with roar > yawn, you can use heal bell, knock off and really whatever you want. it's got great bulk, decent speed and an ok defensive typing.

 

[ManOfMany]

Master innovater ManOfMany here with a bunch of innovative sets you can use to spam the ladder and Official Tours! Some of these sets are my innovation; others are just weird things I've seen on ladder that actually work and should be used more. Some of these ideas seem a little "out there" but they do work usually, so give it a try :)

Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Defog

Before you say "Lolol Defog Articuno is ass", Defog Cuno isn't meant to Defog against every stealth rock user ever. Just two in particular: Articuno reliably switches in and Defogs on both Pilo and Roselia, supporting both itself and its team. Since Pilo is on so many teams, this can come in useful a lot. The 252 HP are to provide a reliable counter to Special Waters, however, speed EVs can still be run of course.

Relicanth @ Rocky Helmet/Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spe
Impish Nature
- Yawn
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Waterfall

Yawn is a very underused move that can cause your opponent to make risky sacrifices. The idea is that you switch in defensive Canth on something it counters, and use Yawn as the opponent switches to Gourgeist/Tangela. To avoid falling asleep, the opponent may switch out there pokemon, which forces their switch-in to have to tank a powerful Head Smash if you predict right. Yawn is also neat for checking a few set-up sweepers like Fraxure and Duosion.

Duosion @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Signal Beam/HP Fighting
- Recover

This is really cool because it counters so many Special Attackers. What is nice about SpD Duosion is Regenerator (although I'm sure Magic Guard works as well), which allows it to switch-in, fire an attack or T-wave, and switch out without any net health loss.

Golduck @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Encore
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Golduck is a dangerous sweeper but struggles to find set-up opportunities. Encore helps with that. You can Encore on a recovery move, a hazard, protect, a resisted move (like Machoke Bullet Punch), although you have to be a good player to use it properly :p. You lose coverage but Hydro Pump in the rain can already muscle through a lot of resists.

More to come, hopefully Detect Marowak hasn't already made all of these ;_;

 

[MZ]

I'll get in on this set sharing stuff

Relicanth @ Lum Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Earthquake / Rest
I think standard RP is EQ max speed with LO or wacan or something? This spread beats out zebstrika at +2 and only loses to already boosted things only, so I don't see why I'd run max speed. Lum is great because Twave spam is literally everywhere, and while I'd say Earthquake is the better option overall because you hit klang and can OHKO probopass, rest is just nice for keeping yourself healthy and not getting chipped. Like if relicanth needs to take a hit from stoutland early game, you can still boost later, just nice in general. Overall RP relicanth is far easier to deal with than the smashers were but I think it's pretty solid and anything that you can run that checks dodrio is probably worth having.

Rotom-Frost @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute / Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard
I assume most people have seen this since I've been advocating it a lot, but I'd consider it the best set for Rotom right now. Scarf is still underrated, but this set capitalizes on the high use of Piloswine and Stunfisk to beat Electrics, and even things like Clefairy to an extent by wisping, subbing, and being really hard to switch into. Volt switch is also nice because you can beat every immunity with this set so a lot of times you can just volt with no consequences at all. It's also a lot of fun, like it's probably the best but I'd just say use this because it's enjoyable to just troll teams with this. You get this in and set up and you're normally getting one kill minimum, and volt switch sets can just get out of the few switch-ins it might have like Spdef Grumpig and CM Clefairy.

 

[trc]

I have to agree with Megazard, Rotom-F is a Pokemon I hadn't seen used in a very long time, so I've been trying the Substitute set recently and it's amazing, Ice STAB, Will-O-Wisp, and Levitate give it an amazing niche over other Electric-types. Originally Rotom-F's most popular set was the Scarf set, which was very common in XY PU as a revenge killer and pivot, but recently it's been overshadowed by other Electric-types which are faster without a Choice item, aren't SR weak (which is bad for a Scarfer), and have individual advantages such as Zebstrika's ability to switch into Jumpluff with little repercussion and Raichu's ability to destroy balanced teams at +2. However, Substitute Rotom-F is the perfect set to take advantage of Rotom-F's niches, because its typing gives it more opportunities to setup Substitutes against defensive teams. I have been using a slight variation to Megazard's set though:

Rotom-F @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Blizzard
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp

SubLO Pain Split Rotom-F was used on a team galbia made in XY, but I think in the current meta, this is the best Life Orb set. Obviously Leftovers have benefit, but Life Orb's extra power is very relevant in this meta. Rotom-F gets plenty of opportunities to Substitute: Stunfisk is a really easy target, Piloswine lacking Roar, which you can Will-O-Wisp on the switch-in, Tangela, Roselia (which can sometimes stay in so be careful) and even in some situations things like Jumpluff and Vigoroth which you can scare out with the threat of Scarf Blizzard / HP [Ice] or Trick. Once Rotom-F gets its Substitute up, you're not really having an easy time defeating it, especially with a slow team. You can try to play around it, wearing it down with Life Orb, but this isn't the most reliable strategy. What about special walls though? Well, this is where Life Orb comes in real handy:

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 191-226 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Clefairy the 'counter' needs its specially defensive SR set to beat Rotom-F (or dodge Blizzards), and SR Clefairy is much easier to take advantage of with Pokemon like CB Stoutland which pretty much comes in for free (bonus for Facade if hit with Thunder Wave).

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-F Thunderbolt vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery - a lot of Grumpig run more Speed than this now, though some also are Calm variants.

Things like offensive Roselia are straight up OHKOed.

Relicanth, Protect Politoed, and Metang are all also really good right now, I think Metang is really underrated as it provides a Normal-resist, is difficult to switch into for a Stealth Rock Pokemon, and Pursuits Grumpig, Mr. Mime, and Kadabra really easily, which can be a godsend.

 

[Crimzig]

so i have been trying to build some hyper offense lately and this thing is a absolute pain for tea mbuilding

Linoone is the most threatening sweeper in this hyper offensive meta being able to sweep teams after a belly drum. With memento support or screens it is able to setup on almost any mon thats not hitting you super effectively.

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone through Reflect: 170-201 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone: 169-201 (49.7 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

It forces you to keep your pokenmon that can live a hit from linoone pretty much full health (hyper offense usually only has 1 pokemon that can live a linoone hit at +6) the entire match or you are likely to get swept if it sets up. There was a situation when i was playing Grim where he had a probopass and he pretty much had to not use it the entire match because linoone would otherwise sweep him with screens up, so it forced him to keep his grumpig in on my stoutland to keep his probopass as healthy as possible.

I would like to bring up the idea of a suspect for this little monster as it is degenerate and can win games with absolutely no skill and forces you to not use mons the entire match that checks it.

Linoone @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Seed Bomb
- Shadow Claw
- Belly Drum

Common partner for linoone

Jumpluff
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
- Sleep Powder
- Memento

Another partner to linoone but not as good imo as jumpluff/missy's memento.

Meowstic @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Yawn
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Light Screen

 

[MZ]

Not gonna post suspect opinions but any linoone really should be outspeeding offensive misdreavus. I believe GeneralAnnoyance posted the same spread on viability and it just irks me

 

[kay]

just me thoughts on Linoone.

1) It's easily walled or revenge killed by things like Probopass or Kababra, so it's not a huge pressure on team building.
2) It needs a lot of support to work, with either memento or screens to be effective. Some teams even use both.
3) If you're using it, not only are you spending a lot of your team to support it, you're also playing 4v5 until you click Belly Drum. Until that moment Linoone is completely useless. It offers no defensive use nor any large offensive one. It's dead weight until it sets up.
4) It doesn't set up safely on a lot of tier. It can't set up on anything with twave, taunt, or encore, it can't set up on anything it can't kill right away after setting up, and it can't set up on things that can phaze it out.

In short I don't think it has anything suspect worthy about it. It's just a good mon.

 

[Crimzig]

just me thoughts on Linoone.

1) It's easily walled or revenge killed by things like Probopass or Kababra, so it's not a huge pressure on team building.
2) It needs a lot of support to work, with either memento or screens to be effective. Some teams even use both.
3) If you're using it, not only are you spending a lot of your team to support it, you're also playing 4v5 until you click Belly Drum. Until that moment Linoone is completely useless. It offers no defensive use nor any large offensive one. It's dead weight until it sets up.
4) It doesn't set up safely on a lot of tier. It can't set up on anything with twave, taunt, or encore, it can't set up on anything it can't kill right away after setting up, and it can't set up on things that can phaze it out.

In short I don't think it has anything suspect worthy about it. It's just a good mon.

1) 252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 172 HP / 40 SpD Linoone through Light Screen: 97-115 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 172 HP / 40 SpD Linoone through Light Screen: 70-83 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Not so easy to revenge kill with support.
2)Having a memento jumpluff isn't really a lot of support as its decent on any team.
3)linoone is not dead weight, it can revenge fast frail threats like specs/scarf chatot, dodrio, random scarfers...things like that(50-50s too cuz of BD).
4)It can indeed setup on twave mons because of extreme-speed, taunt and encore aren't too too common and if they do have it, its usually pretty obvious and can be played around.

 

[mael]

yea but come on man, given screens and memento any sweeper is hard to revenge kill. it's still doable without huge drawbacks. i mean sure it's great, but how broken can a pokemon be that basically needs a whole team dedicated to it? you can give belly drum politoed a decent shot at sweeping with all that support too.

i think, what makes linoone appear so broken to you might be, that it can easily pull off sweeps against less prepared player or people who simply don't know how to play around. it's probably the easiest way to farm wins on the ladder, but it's not even close to being consistent vs good players.

don't get fooled 'cause something can pull off easy wins against unprepared teams.

 

[MaroGod]

Not to be a bother but shouldn't all that set sharing shiz of gone to Effective/Underrated sets thread?

 

[kay]

No, we post here about meta things, such as if something should be suspected or not, pointing out something thats really strong in the meta, or something like that. The Effective/Underrated sets thread is used to discuss new or interesting sets.

 

[Crimzig]

yea but come on man, given screens and memento any sweeper is hard to revenge kill. it's still doable without huge drawbacks. i mean sure it's great, but how broken can a pokemon be that basically needs a whole team dedicated to it? you can give belly drum politoed a decent shot at sweeping with all that support too.

i think, what makes linoone appear so broken to you might be, that it can easily pull off sweeps against less prepared player or people who simply don't know how to play around. it's probably the easiest way to farm wins on the ladder, but it's not even close to being consistent vs good players.

don't get fooled 'cause something can pull off easy wins against unprepared teams.

Most fast sweepers don't have the luxury to run bulk investment like linoone does. It does not require a "whole team" to support it as you usually just run it with a jumpluff or even no support like white hair killer. The argument that linoone is deadweight until it sets up is also pretty bogus, it can actually pick off scarfers and frail mons while not setup.

The fact that most good players run hyper offense or bulky offense and not stall makes it easier to run them over with linoone. Good players can play around with a obvious jumpluff memento in a attempt to setup on a mon that you can safely belly drum on, but what if i just click u-turn and gain free momentum?(or sleep powder if nothings asleep). Its obviously easier to pull off a linoone sweep if there a bad player because there not familiar with memento.

"Its not even close to being consistent vs good players" pssshh you cant be serious right, its a legit threat in the current meta that can sweep an entire team with 1 turn.

 

[Dundies]

Most fast sweepers don't have the luxury to run bulk investment like linoone does. It does not require a "whole team" to support it as you usually just run it with a jumpluff or even no support like white hair killer. The argument that linoone is deadweight until it sets up is also pretty bogus, it can actually pick off scarfers and frail mons while not setup.

The fact that most good players run hyper offense or bulky offense and not stall makes it easier to run them over with linoone. Good players can play around with a obvious jumpluff memento in a attempt to setup on a mon that you can safely belly drum on, but what if i just click u-turn and gain free momentum?(or sleep powder if nothings asleep). Its obviously easier to pull off a linoone sweep if there a bad player because there not familiar with memento.

"Its not even close to being consistent vs good players" pssshh you cant be serious right, its a legit threat in the current meta that can sweep an entire team with 1 turn.

Yes, Linoone is an obvious threat to most offensive teams and yes, Linoone can sweep through a lot of unprepared teams, but I don't understand how this warrants a suspect. I'd argue that Fraxure is much more threatening than Linoone and if your argument is that it's hard to kill with screens and Memento support, then why don't we suspect Vigoroth, Fraxure, Huntail or anything that can set up. Linoone is definitely an underrated threat in the meta, but it's definitely not suspect worthy.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Yes, Linoone is an obvious threat to most offensive teams and yes, Linoone can sweep through a lot of unprepared teams, but I don't understand how this warrants a suspect. I'd argue that Fraxure is much more threatening than Linoone and if your argument is that it's hard to kill with screens and Memento support, then why don't we suspect Vigoroth, Fraxure, Huntail or anything that can set up. Linoone is definitely an underrated threat in the meta, but it's definitely not suspect worthy.

I suppose a counterargument to your fraxure and company statement is that we have common stops being (piloswine; encore, machoke, misdreavus; Politoed, any bulky attacker that can take a +2 waterfall) to your previously mentioned mons. In addition, linoone sweeps with a +2 priority move, something that only fake out users (essentially purugly) and sashed kadabras stop. Having such a move allows it to outclass your sweepers by bypassing potential priority revenge killers. Lastly, after one turn of setup, your mentioned mons don't threaten to OHKO most of the entire tier from full.

Yes, screen support on any set up mon will make it more difficult to kill. However, screen support on your mentioned mons still allows for using more powerful non-priority moves on the setup to weaken them while surviving a hit and following up with a priority move. All the meantime, screens are burning out and because no other set up mon has +2 priority, you can revenge kill with a priority user or scarfer (Ex. Fracture setting up on piloswine).