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I think just about everyone has come to the consensus that both Carracosta and Barbaracle need to be banned, and I honestly look forward to it, as they've turned the current PU into a stale, boring meta.
Both of the two are completely limiting teambuilding, as almost all teams are forced to have a scarfer like Sawsbuck or Raichu along with a Kadabra not to absolutely just lose to the smashers, and even those two can be beaten after a Shell Smash, since Jolly Barbaracle can outspeed and OHKO Sawsbuck while Carracosta can OHKO Raichu with Aqua Jet. Kadabra has so much pressure placed upon it to beat setup sweepers that simply adding another setup sweeper makes it almost impossible to check, especially with Memento support.
Both Carracosta and Barbaracle both find many opportunities to set up, as Barbaracle is just naturally bulky all around, while Carracosta sports a base 133 Defense stat along with Solid Rock that allows almost effortless setup. Defensive teams have become unviable at this point, as they are often too passive and with the ever-so-common Spikes support, there are little to no checks to Barbaracle and especially Carracosta (except like Palpitoad i guess, but if you're using that, that's when you know your meta is bad). Now most teams are forced to be offensive basically to keep up pressure and limit setup opportunities for the two, but it's often not enough.
The meta has basically become "get rid of Kadabra and set up with your Carracosta first and you win". It's honestly pretty disgusting, and I think the banning of the two will be really refreshing for the meta.
Carracosta: Can run life orb with stab priority not to mention solid rock that can tank non stab moves with ease. With aqua jet you are able to take out the faster threats such as Zebstrika and Raichu. If you are able to set up rocks than Zebstrika and Raichu are most likely not going to live a aqua jet at +2.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 239-282 (82.1 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Carracosta can also take out psychical walls in the tier such as Tangela and Gourgeist-Super. That are able to stop most psychical sweeper, but not carracosta. If Gourgeist-Super is a special wall than stone edge will be able to take it out.
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 390-460 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 367-432 (98.1 - 115.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Def.)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 344-407 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (SpD)
A few counters to stop Carracosta is sash Kadabra who can return the hit with an energy ball. As well as, scarf Sawsbuck, who has no trouble taking a aqua jet and can follow up with a horn leech that is guaranteed OHKO. Machoke is a good counter because most Carracosta's are running ice beam, stone edge and aqua jet will not be doing that much to Machoke. Those are the some counters to Carracosta, if you are able to get rocks up and Carracosta in against a pokemon that you can set up on there are few checks to stop it. It is especially hard because of possible memento step up. Even if you have a check to Carracosta memento can allow Carracosta a free shell smash that can lead to gg.
Barbaracle: Unlike Carrcosta Barbaracle doesnt have any priority but with a shell smash it can out speed every pokemon in the PU tier (unless scarfed). Also unlike Carrcosta Barbaracle doesnt run ice beam which means psychical walls are able to stop it. Such as Tangela, Gourgeist-Super, Gabite, Machoke, as well as a few scarfed pokemon.
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 261-307 (69.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gabite: 195-229 (57.3 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Barbaracle cant OHKO as many pokemon as Carracosta but can deal damage. Other than a few pokemon Barbaracle is able to almost take out the PU tier (other than pokemon with sash or sturdy, when no rocks are up) Barbaracle's tough claws can dish out massive damage and because its faster than most pokemon priority isn't a huge problem. Given the right time and you are able to weaken the few walls of Barbaracle you can set up and sweep. Both of these pokemon force every team to have a counter either of these pokemon. People look at the team and their first thought is... What do I need to take out to sweep with Barbaracle or Carracosta. I think Barbaracle and Carracosta have too much power for the PU tier and they would fit better in the NU tier. Hope they both get banned.
Im not exactly anti-ban but I'm going to respond to some of these arguments to spark discussion (also bc some of what people said is just incorrect or overstated af).
Costa, unlike Barbaracle, also has Solid Rock as an ability so as I found out the hard way it is sure to live Zebstrika's Volt Switch and other moderate super-effective attacks. Plus given the relative lack of priority in PU makes Costa and Barbaracle extremely dangerous, which is why reliable hazard setters are important, another thing which PU lacks compared to other tiers. Also I don't see why Carracosta isn't also walled by Tangela, Ice Beam can ohko it but that would sacrifice some coverage or priority.
I find Lickilicky to be a good match against the above type of offense, as it checks nearly all special attackers, can 2hko/possibly paralyze Kadabra and can tank a hit from Barbaracle if carrying Poison Jab over Cross Chop and phaze it out with Dragon Tail.
You are overestimating Solid Rocks ability to take on hits. Vs Zebstrika, even if it over predicts and goes for volt switch, you have a 40% chance to be KOd by rocks and will then be KOd by life orb recoil if you weren't (auto KO with -sdef nature). In fact the only super effective attack that carracosta can set up on due to solid rock is Fraxure's unboosted low kick, which isn't going to be a common situation. Actually the only Pokemon in the s/a ranks that costa can comfortably set up on are dodrio, choice locked stoutland (or -1 superpower), non-willo rapidash, non-boosted fraxure, and mightyena. Even if it can live a hit from other pokes, it is still warn down by things like hazards, life orb (which it really needs for power), and even other priorities. I would not say that PU lacks priority at all, even though both smashers resist quick attack, they still take a decent amount from others (for example opposing costa ajet does 25-30% to both, which can be severe after hazards and setting up). Im not sure what you mean when you are talking about entry hazards, but our entry hazard removal is pretty terrible so it is fairly easy getting stealth rock up, and with roselia being one of the best pokes in the tier, spikes are too hard either (though there arent many other setters). Ice beam costa is standard as it doesnt really need any other move, waterfall does let it KO stunfisk and pilo, while doing more to machoke, but those three mons are easily warn down and still take a lot from other attacks.
Lickilicky isn't a very reliable barbaracle check:
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 322-381 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That doesn't need to much chip damage (rocks + a bit more) to KO.
I think just about everyone has come to the consensus that both Carracosta and Barbaracle need to be banned, and I honestly look forward to it, as they've turned the current PU into a stale, boring meta.
Both of the two are completely limiting teambuilding, as almost all teams are forced to have a scarfer like Sawsbuck or Raichu along with a Kadabra not to absolutely just lose to the smashers, and even those two can be beaten after a Shell Smash, since Jolly Barbaracle can outspeed and OHKO Sawsbuck while Carracosta can OHKO Raichu with Aqua Jet. Kadabra has so much pressure placed upon it to beat setup sweepers that simply adding another setup sweeper makes it almost impossible to check, especially with Memento support.
Both Carracosta and Barbaracle both find many opportunities to set up, as Barbaracle is just naturally bulky all around, while Carracosta sports a base 133 Defense stat along with Solid Rock that allows almost effortless setup. Defensive teams have become unviable at this point, as they are often too passive and with the ever-so-common Spikes support, there are little to no checks to Barbaracle and especially Carracosta (except like Palpitoad i guess, but if you're using that, that's when you know your meta is bad). Now most teams are forced to be offensive basically to keep up pressure and limit setup opportunities for the two, but it's often not enough.
The meta has basically become "get rid of Kadabra and set up with your Carracosta first and you win". It's honestly pretty disgusting, and I think the banning of the two will be really refreshing for the meta.
I understand your points, and they are the legit ones, but you are not conveying them too well and are really overstating their brokeness. Firstly, not every team is forced to have a scarfer, though there are only 3 faster pokes (two being scarfers) that can reliably beat jolly costa, and those three aren't exactly hard to fit on a team (this doesn't mean you cannot run the other scarfers either - offense can run physically bulky pokes). Running scarfers on offense is still important for other set up sweepers like regice, along with other pokes like zebby. Floatzel is also a borderline s-rank mon which works amazingly on offense. If kadabra is your only check to most set up sweepers then your team is badly built. Yes the addition of running linoone/fraxure/etc can pressure kadabra, but people shouldn't be needing kadabra to be taking all these things. Even if both mons are banned, dual set up sweepers will still be a thing. Your last paragraph doesn't really add anything, its just a huge overstatement. I think I understand what you mean by this, the metagame is being ruled by set up sweepers and that isn't fun, but it really doesn't come through. Your prior point could have also been made clearer, like when you are talking about teams being limited, you could have mentioned more about defensive balance teams having to run niche like metang to check them both, as offensive teams definitely have the tools to stop them (i'm not denying that those mons centralising - but imo its not to a very unhealthy extent).
Carracosta: Can run life orb with stab priority not to mention solid rock that can tank non stab moves with ease. With aqua jet you are able to take out the faster threats such as Zebstrika and Raichu. If you are able to set up rocks than Zebstrika and Raichu are most likely not going to live a aqua jet at +2.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 239-282 (82.1 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Carracosta can also take out psychical walls in the tier such as Tangela and Gourgeist-Super. If Gourgeist-Super is a special wall than stone edge will be able to take it out.
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 390-460 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 367-432 (98.1 - 115.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Def.)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 344-407 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (SpD)
One counter to stop Carracosta is sash Kadabra who can return the hit with an energy ball. Another counter is scarf Sawsbuck, who has no trouble taking a aqua jet and can follow up with a horn leech that is guaranteed OHKO. Those are the main counters to Carracosta, if you are able to get rocks up and Carracosta in against a pokemon that you can set up on there are few checks to stop it.
I think Carracosta SHOULD BE BANNED.
Barbaracle: Unlike Carrcosta Barbaracle doesnt have any priority but with a shell smash it can out speed every pokemon in the PU tier (unless scarfed). Also unlike Carrcosta Barbaracle doesnt run ice beam which means psychical walls are able to stop it. Such as Tangela and Gourgeist-Super.
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgeist-Super: 261-307 (69.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Other than a few pokemon Barbaracle is able to almost take out the PU tier (other than pokemon with sash or sturdy, when no rocks are up) Barbaracle's tough claws can dish out massive damage and because its faster than most pokemon priority isn't a huge problem. Given the right time and you are able to weaken the few walls of Barbaracle you can set up and sweep. Both of these pokemon force every team to have a counter to both of these pokemon are too good for the PU tier.
Your post doesn't really say much non-obvious things about these Pokemon. Calcs vs frail mons and mons that costa is running a specific move to hit doesn't really say much, and then you only really mention two mons that check it. There are a lot more; offensive scarf simipour, floatzel and defensively pokes like metang, defensive costa, etc. This is similar to your points on barbaracle.
What I have noticed (this isnt just directed at you, blalib), but people have only really been saying 'not too many counters banban', when although this is true to an extent, there is much more; mainly their effects on the metagame (Dundies mentioned this a bit but not in great detail). This metagame is horrible to play in, and its not because I am forced to run a costa/barb check, its because set up sweeper spam is way too easy to use and win. Our set up sweepers are pretty great right now, and although teams are able to beat them all (even soft checks are enough for some, as in battle you keep them healthy), but along with the offensive pressure these teams provide, it is hard to gain momentum and stop them. Memento is a big part of this as it can completely shift the momentum in a battle, especcially due to it being hard to counter play.
So yes they do not have too many checks and counters, but making a post just saying this and listing them doesn't show that 1. that they are broken, or 2. that you have a good enough knowledge of the PU metagame to vote
Roselia might be one of the best Spikes setters, but it's bulk is nothing to be proud of imo. Toxic Orb Ursaring will OHKO after Stealth Rock, and Piloswine can beat Roselia 1v1 most of the time.
Also I didn't say PU doesn't have a lot of priority in itself, but relative to the other tiers, and so far I haven't seen a single form of priority in PU that is super effective against either Barbaracle or Carracosta since Poliwrath got banned. Carracosta especially, as it takes zero from Ice Shard, Quick Attack, and non-stab neutral moves such as Bullet Punch.
As for Licklicky, it depends on the situation, but at least some of the time it will be at enough health to take a hit because it's main purpose is wishpassing in any case. Hazard removal seems okay to me; Pelipper can beat defensive Roselia 1v1 and so can Armaldo much of the time, and both are fairly bulky, although Armaldo does lack reliable recovery and is beaten by Piloswine one on one.
252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 285-336 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
I could be wrong about Roselia's EV spread, the one on the dex gives more defense EVs but in most of my games the damage seems about right for a NU spread
In conclusion I guess, at least in my experience, there isn't enough priority to reliably check barb or Costa compared to the number of mons they can straight up OHKO.
Roselia might be one of the best Spikes setters, but it's bulk is nothing to be proud of imo. Toxic Orb Ursaring will OHKO after Stealth Rock, and Piloswine can beat Roselia 1v1 most of the time.
Also I didn't say PU doesn't have a lot of priority in itself, but relative to the other tiers, and so far I haven't seen a single form of priority in PU that is super effective against either Barbaracle or Carracosta since Poliwrath got banned. Carracosta especially, as it takes zero from Ice Shard, Quick Attack, and non-stab neutral moves such as Bullet Punch.
As for Licklicky, it depends on the situation, but at least some of the time it will be at enough health to take a hit because it's main purpose is wishpassing in any case. Hazard removal seems okay to me; Pelipper can beat defensive Roselia 1v1 and so can Armaldo much of the time, and both are fairly bulky, although Armaldo does lack reliable recovery and is beaten by Piloswine one on one.
252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 285-336 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
I could be wrong about Roselia's EV spread, the one on the dex gives more defense EVs but in most of my games the damage seems about right for a NU spread
In conclusion I guess, at least in my experience, there isn't enough priority to reliably check barb or Costa compared to the number of mons they can straight up OHKO.
that is cool and all but roselia runs 120 defense evs for a reason, and with minimal loss in speciale defense you become able to handily live all these hits even after hazards and beat some of those 1v1
Alright, but it's just from my experience. I'm not sure if I'm getting rolls, I might, but it's happened multiple times. It might just be something used in low ladder
After achieving the required COIL, I have to say that I think I'm going for ban on both.
Carracosta
IMO, Carracosta is more broken than Barbaracle. It's slower than Barbaracle but has the option to run Aqua Jet for priority against mons that outspeed it even at +2 (Zebstrika, Raichu, Ninjask -- although it can't hit Floatzel very well). It typically runs life orb and can run some combo of Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Stone Edge/Ice Beam/Zen Headbutt, although I've found Shell Smash + Aqua Jet + Stone Edge + Ice Beam to be the most effective and threatening set. The ability to go mixed lets it break through Tangela and Gourgeist (although a gourgeist with heavy Special Defense investment can take a +2 life orb ice beam), which barbaracle cannot do. Carracosta's superior bulk allows it to have more set up opportunities against a wide variety of mons like Dodrio, Stoutland (if it isn't locked into Superpower), Rapidash (without Will-o-Wisp even though that's not great/common), Armaldo, Lickilicky (without Dragon Tail), Ninjask, and Purugly.
Once it's boosted to +2 it's pretty hard to stop and can take out even the bulkiest of walls in PU. (and mons that just have high defense in general)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 429-504 (101.1 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Roselia: 407-481 (133.8 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 367-432 (98.1 - 115.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon: 298-351 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 273-321 (84.2 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This thing evidently has a vast amount of opportunities to set-up, and doesn't really require Memento/Screens/whatever due to it's ridiculous bulk/somehwat helpful ability in Solid Rock. It's power is pretty overwhelming and OHKO's a lot at +2, the only thing that can survive any of Aqua Jet/Stone Edge/Ice Beam and hurt it back is Machoke, which is worn down pretty easily/eviolite reliant/wrecked by Zen Headbutt.
It also has the option to not run a Shell Smash set - it can run a defensive set giving it a bit of versatility (although just looking at a team can sometimes tell you which it'll be), which Barbaracle doesn't really have (Lead/Scarf exist but are really not good alternatives to SS, whereas defensive costa is great).
I'm going for Ban.
Barbaracle
Barbaracle, while not quite on the same level as Carracosta, is broken. With Tough Claws boosting it's main STAB (Razor Shell) along with it's coverage options (Poison Jab [the best], Cross Chop) it basically is given the boost of a life orb without the recoil. Barbaracle, with it's decent defensive typing and good bulk, finds plenty of set-up opportunities on basically all the same mons as Carracosta.
While it can't OHKO everything quite like Carracosta can (I have yet to see a life orb barbaracle so I didn't calc with one) it still dents everything except for Gourgeist and Tangela (tangela takes a lot from poison jab but not even the offensive set is ohko'd).
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 294-346 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Roselia: 283-334 (93 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 205-243 (63.2 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 252-297 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see it doesn't reach many OHKO's, but when paired with hazard stacking (which is really easy due to the lack of reliablie/non-weak-to-rocks hazard removers) it's basically unstoppable.
One thing that pushes this over the edge is it's speed tier. Once it's at +2, it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame - the only things that can outspeed it are Choice Scarf Raichu and Floatzel (scarf Zebstrika is bad, and don't even mention Ninjask). Like Carracosta it doesn't take much from priority, especially since it recovers it's defense drop after White Herb.
If Carracosta wasn't in PU I'm not sure if Barbaracle would be as ridiculous, but the combination of the two put a crazy amount of pressure on teambuilding, so I'm going for Ban.
I don't even know if both these Pokemon are broken in a vacuum considering that looking at all the S, A, to B+ ranks the poll of Pokemon that they can set up on is basically limited to 3: Rapidash (which tbh is not really fodder since teams swept by either won't run a non Wisp Rapidash which stops non lum variants in their track and can still hit Barbaracle fairly hard), Dodrio (removes item which is cool for Sucker Punch Mightyena VS Barbaracle I guess and stops Aqua Jet from OHKOing Raichu and Zebstrika from Carracosta), and Duosion (which kinda eats a +2 hit anyway and can like psyshock twice). There is also stoutland which isnt fodder all the time but can't afford being locked into Return. The problem however is when Memento is factored in which makes everything harder and basically trades one Pokemon for an opportunity to set up outside of like switching into Pokemon such as Regice and Servine and Taunt/Thunder Wave. This basically can put every team against the threat of a +2/+2/+2 behemoth (also stuff like Linoone but that's for another post) basically forcing the opposing team to find a different way to deal with it outside of active "pressing" (nice football term ik) on the Mon itself to not let it set up. We all know now how limited the options are considering how Barbaracle is a terrifying sweeper and Carracosta an even scarier wallbreaker in addition to sweeper and the best solution is always revenge killing for both. For this task we have access to a couple of solid mons being Scarf Sawsbuck and Simipour that revenge kill both, Scarf Raichu that beats Barbaracle, Jumpluff that beats Carracosta and Kadabra which beats both (bar godly Dual Chop Barbaracle). Defensive answers are limited to bulky Grass types in barbaracle's case (unless like Lo Pjab to deal with OFFENSIVE) tangela and either those or Pokemon such as Machoke, Stunfisk, or most Rock resists really for Carracosta, depending on the moveset + random defensive mons like max Defense Twave Clef and Misdreavus as well as a Twave Furfrou (not advocating but it works lol). I'm still not sure and I might just abstain or vote ban on one and not the other or both since I don't really feel this meta as overly bad since it at least punishes the use of mindless breakers such as Stoutland and Dodrio (you guys underestimate how boring they are lol) and they aren't impossible to deal with really with some teambuilding.
Guess its time to post my opinions about the suspect mons; Barbaracle and Carracosta. I'm just gonna straight up, the fact that I had to run Palpitoad as my "counter" to these mons is absolutely disgusting. I'll go more into detail individually but, after a shell smash, the only thing I found capable of "countering" both those mons is the little frog in question. That's absolutely ridiculous considering its E / D Rank at the minute, and its the only Mon that can manhandle both / one at the time, and even then, its under so much pressure to take 0 damage from elsewhere AND take on shell smashing barbs / costa, its just not gonna happen. My main problem with the pair of them is for the pure fact that their are no solid answers. I've found the best way of dealing with them is via a very fast scarfer (e.g. Raichu, Zebstrika) that can outspeed either at +2 or (less effectively) build a team that gives no opportunities for either Mon to settup. So that means no non-will-o rapidash, no choiced mons that give either a chance to settup, and this fact in itself is a just the tip of the iceberg about how centralising they can be for teambuilding. Make no mistake, if you don't have kadabra, palpitoad, Scarf raichu / zebra, a random focus sash intact or a full team which can't be used as fodder they will sweep you.
Barbaracle
Let's start with Barbaracle, in my opinion, the least broken out of the two. The main reason for this is its lack of priority, meaning for stuff like Scarf Raichu / Zebstrika its actually easier to deal with than Carracosta. However, where Carracosta is forced into running Life Orb to ensure certain KO'es, this can run the better item white herb, and live many more priority moves despite its lack of bulk in comparison to Costa. It also gets a vast Physical Movepool, which means you can target what you want to hit most of all, or how you want it to perform. Poison Jab for Tangela, Frustration for Sweeping Efficiency, Sub even to fuck over Kadabras, and these coverage options (for better or worse) make Barbaracle a scary proposition. It's also got raw speed, unlike Costa which equally relies on priority to disguise that fact. One thing that it doesn't have however, is a reliable STAB so that it can confirm KO'es. More often than you'd think, my barb / someone else's barb would miss razor shell on Piloswine and die to the following EQ, its just not reliable, but when it hits, goddamit its hard to stop. With Poliwrath gone, it can now afford to ditch AA for Poison Jab, and suddenly the bulky grasses that previously countered it (Tangela is the main perpetrator) are under extreme threat by this monster.
To conclude, Barbaracles excellent speed tier + power after a shell smash and ability to take priority moves midsweep mean its one of the scariest sweepers PU has to handle right now, even if you have a "counter" it has the devices in its movepool to beat it (shoutouts to random ladder kid who ran gknot barb :/) and as a result I think that it should be Banned.
Carracosta
Now this is the real elephant in the room. Carracosta is legit, the most scary Pokémon to face in the PU metagame at the minute, purely because the best way to counter it is focus sash. Whether it be Focus Sash Kadabra or Meganium, this this thing has a way around it. Fast Scarfer? Eat +2 LO STAB Priority. Bulky Grass? Eat Mixed LO Ice Beam. Bulky [Mon]? Probably can't eat a +2 LO STAB Stone Edge or one of its other options. This Mon is the pure definition of broken, where previously it would run Zen Headbutt, to hit Poliwrath meaning bulky grasses would beat it 1v1, it can now run Ice Beam with 0 opportunity cost, meaning its counters are well maintained raichus or well maintained focus sashes. It's Physical Bulk even at -1 is good enough to take assorted priority hits and obviously it's huge physical defense at +0 AND Solid Rock to boot mean its got SO many opportunities to settup, its ridiculous. If its at high enough health, and if Palpitoad has the slightest residual damage, it can beat it since palp can't OHKO it with EP, and 2hko back with Ice Beam, now that is truely scary thought.
In conclusion, Carracosta is a threat that if not accounted for at team builder and even in the game, you will be swept by it, it will find an opportunity and it will sweep you. Thereby, forcing you to carry a counter, and maintain it flawlessly for turn 1 to turn 100 so that you can answer Carracosta reliably. Even if you do have a focus sash kadabra, you can't switch it in as it smashes since it gets 2hkoed by AJ, so your gonna have to sack something before you can actually bring it in and "Check" Costa. I have been pairing it with Pursuit Dusknoir, Scarf Mime and Screens Meowstic. I swear it could sweep peoples teams 10 times over if it really wanted. This thing is ridiculous, ban it.
A lot of my post has been me just complaining about how borked these threats can be, which I genuinely believe that they are, but I haven't provided you guys with much solutions to these mons, and after a bit of experimenting I've found an OK counter (not called Palpitoad you'll be pleased to hear)
Defensive Restalk Machoke
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard / Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dynamic Punch / Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This set, introduced to me by based God DnB is actually an amazing Smash Costa / Smash Barbaracle check, not only because its super effective at just bulking hits like +2 LO Ice Beam, and +2 Tough Claws Razor Shell, but its a Machoke. It can do so much more than counter Smashers since its a fighting type that can remove Eviolite, and with how NFE heavy PU is, Knock Off is certainly a massive advantage to have. However, what makes the set really nice is the ability to Restalk. People don't commonly carry ways of OHKO'ing Machoke, so they will often try through residual damage and defensive switches. If they don't have a mechanic of OHKO'ing Machoke that wants to switch into a dpunch / Knock Off (DnB showed me how hard it is to switch into that combination of moves), it literally becomes unkillable. Pair it with some kind of Aromatherapy / Heal Bell, and you have a reliable way of taking on SmashCosta and SmashBarb. if your an ass player and don't want to subject ladder scrubs / frens to dpunch pain you can also use Restalk to get Guts boosted CCs which is also cool but I don't like defense drops :s + I'm a douchebag
anyway, tldr, fuck costa and barb, I would emplore you to vote ban on both.
To be honest I am not even 100% sure if I even like this metagame anymore...it reminds me a lot of the OU metagame. It is juggernaut vs. juggernaut, with teams consisting of loose checks to your opponent's juggernaut, and matches consisting of clearing your opponent's loose checks so your juggernaut can sweep. It's extremely offensive with stall being sparse at BEST...if not dead completely.
I'm not surprised though. Smashing has always been very good, but with Poliwrath gone Smashing is now even better. Carracosta no longer has to run Zen Headbutt so it can just carry Ice Beam. Barbaracle can now upgrade Aerial Ace to Poison Jab and kill offensive Tangela. The metagame has shifted almost entirely to dealing with Shell Smashers and now everything is gross. But with so many losses in the recent tier shift, that might just be the flavor of PU now. If we ban Carracosta and Barbaracle, I'll just run Fraxure...which has similar effects.
That being said, I do think these 2 smashers are bad for the tier. They are extremely overcentralizing and restrict teambuilding to the point where serious teams have no choice but to have multiple checks (there aren't even enough reliable counters) to these two or lose. This tier is no longer able to deal with these two and are both unhealthy.
Also, as a final note/critique: would it be possible next time to have variation on the times for the suspect tournaments? I love the idea, but both fell into my work shift and I can't come to any because of it. If you can't make the one time then you can't play in the tournaments at all and that is a shame.
Just got my reqs so I'll make a post giving my opinion (This is my first time, go easy lol). First up is Carracosta.
I think everybody can pretty much agree that Carracosta makes for an unhealthy metagame and limits teambuilding due to the lack of checks and counters. Fast special attackers like Raichu who can outspeed even at +2 get OHKO'd by Life Orb Aqua Jet. Pokemon like Tangela and Gourgeist who would normally check it get OHKO'd by the Ice Beam set. It's not just the power that makes this thing broken, Solid Rock and its sheer bulk allow it to set up on a lot of the metagame, combine this with the fact that the most common types of priority are physical and hit Carracosta either neutral or are resisted (the rare Vacuum Wave is an exception) makes Carracosta way too hard to deal with in PU. Due to these reasons i'm voting for BAN.
Next up is Barbaracle. I think that Barbaracle is the lesser of the two threats but it is still really deadly. Like Carracosta, Barbaracle has a very limited amount of counters, the aforementioned checks like Tangela or Machoke take a decent amount of damage from Barbaracle at +2 with Poison Jab and Aerial Ace respectively and due to Tough Claws boosting most of Barbaracles attacks muscling through physical walls can be sometimes too easy. Although it lacks priority Barbaracle has a higher speed tier than Carracosta allowing it to naturally outspeed most of the metagame and forcing people to run things like Scarf Raichu, Scarf Simipour to check it. Again I am going to go with BAN.
Thanks for reading, I've enjoyed laddering to get reqs for the first time and wanted to give my opinion :]
What's there to say? It's really scary. It's got some strong priority with jet to kill scarfers and Stone edge is ridiculously strong after a shell smash. Ice beam kills the things that would normally handle it too (Tangela and Gourgeist). It's got bulk for days with solid rock for sponging super effective attacks. Essentially, you need to run sashed kadabra to stop it and that isn't healthy for teambuilding. Floatzel could handle after a SS, but jet does around 50% to it with life orb, so if you're weakened, then you lose anyway. It's all pretty much been said higher up the thread, so I won't take up anymore of your time. So, I'll be voting to BAN TURTLE.
Barbaracle
Babaracle is a little less of a problem, as it doesnt get priority and at +2 and adamant it can't kill Gourgeist-Super or defensive Tangela with aerial ace or poison jab, but that doesn't make it any less of a threat. The main thing with barbaracle is that if you're not running one of the aforementioned pokemon, you need to be running kadabra (dual chop variants kill sashed kadabra), or a scarfed electric type (not rotom-F) that is less viable when scarfed. Otherwise, Barbaracle has essentially a free sweep on your team. All in all, Barb's broke so I'll be voting to BAN BARBARACLE.
So I'm not going to go too in depth on this as I feel like whats been said on it has a been accurate so far. With amazing bulk and an ability to mitigate super effective damage, Carracosta finds many opportunities to set up and sweep. Added with it's mixed coverage and priority it's very hard to wall or even revenge kill for most teams. This mon has single handledly run the meta since Poliwrath has left. For me this is an easy ban.
So this guy. Now contrary to what other people think, I do not think it should be banned.
Now my reasoning for this is simple, it's easier to both wall and revenge kill. We have options to stop it. But because of Carracostas ability to break through them, we can't reliably run all of them. An example would be Gourgiest or offensive/tank Tangela. Both of these mons get blown back by Carracosta so you can't reliably run them as your main SS stopper. Barb can't pressure scarfer like Carracosta can because of its lack of priority, meaning it's less pressuring for offensive team to deal with. I just don't see Barb being on the same level on Carracosta. The issue is they're both in the same tier at the same time.
Also if we were to ban both of them at the same time, things like Soutland and Dodrio can take over the meta because of the good flying/ normal resists we're losing. I think keeping Barb in PU would actually keep it healthy as it challenges some of the better normal and flying types in the tier.
So I'm not going to go too in depth on this as I feel like whats been said on it has a been accurate so far. With amazing bulk and an ability to mitigate super effective damage, Carracosta finds many opportunities to set up and sweep. Added with it's mixed coverage and priority it's very hard to wall or even revenge kill for most teams. This mon has single handledly run the meta since Poliwrath has left. For me this is an easy ban.
So this guy. Now contrary to what other people think, I do not think it should be banned.
Now my reasoning for this is simple, it's easier to both wall and revenge kill. We have options to stop it. But because of Carracostas ability to break through them, we can't reliably run all of them. An example would be Gourgiest or offensive/tank Tangela. Both of these mons get blown back by Carracosta so you can't reliably run them as your main SS stopper. Barb can't pressure scarfer like Carracosta can because of its lack of priority, meaning it's less pressuring for offensive team to deal with. I just don't see Barb being on the same level on Carracosta. The issue is they're both in the same tier at the same time.
Also if we were to ban both of them at the same time, things like Soutland and Dodrio can take over the meta because of the good flying/ normal resists we're losing. I think keeping Barb in PU would actually keep it healthy as it challenges some of the better normal and flying types in the tier.
I like your reasoning that both are in the tier at the same time so it's easy to dismiss both as too powerful. I think it would be interesting to see a meta with only one or the other to discern the capabilities of sweeping each has. One point in your argument that I'd like to address is, what of the teams that don't want to run scarfed raichu or the like for jolly barbaracle? What of the teams that don't want to run tangela or gourgeist? I'd presume they'd just get blown back. Another point is that roselia handle all of these Barb stopping mons very well. With one fairly common mon, you're handling all the stops to your barbaracle sweep. In regards to your last point, their are plenty of other viable rock types and defensive walls in the tier that can handle dodrio and stoutland. Yes, both will become more viable upon barbaracle leaving, but we still have tangela and gourgeist for stoutland (not to mention plenty of viable rock types for frustrations) and probo and to a lesser extent stunfisk for dodrio. My final point is, we should not keep something in the tier, simply because other things will become more viable.
On the contrary, banning based on what is best for the metagame is exactly what you are supposed to do. This is why we never even entertained the idea of a Poliwrath suspect: wrath was undeniably good, but it was holding the tier together. I never would have banned wrath on the grounds that the ban would make Pawniard and the smashers and Water Spam waaaaaaay too good in the tier. The health of the metagame is one of the most important things to consider. We need to think about the metagame AFTER a ban too.
But Barbaracle is not Poliwrath. Sir Kay makes a good point, and I personally will consider that point for when I hit COIL.
On the contrary, banning based on what is best for the metagame is exactly what you are supposed to do. This is why we never even entertained the idea of a Poliwrath suspect: wrath was undeniably good, but it was holding the tier together. I never would have banned wrath on the grounds that the ban would make Pawniard and the smashers and Water Spam waaaaaaay too good in the tier. The health of the metagame is one of the most important things to consider. We need to think about the metagame AFTER a ban too.
But Barbaracle is not Poliwrath. Sir Kay makes a good point, and I personally will consider that point for when I hit COIL.
Actually he is correct. We shouldn't chose our views on what a future metagame should look like, as even if banning barbaracle and carracosta does make dodrio/whatever broken (which we cannot tell now), we can just ban whatever that broken mon is. Broken checks broken is a flawed argument since firstly you don't know what the future metagame will be like, and secondly you are just leaving an unhealthy threat in the metagame, thus making it worse than it has to be. Poliwrath wasn't suspected simply because it wasn't broken/unhealthy nor centralising enough (high usage =/=centralising).
Actually he is correct. We shouldn't chose our views on what a future metagame should look like, as even if banning barbaracle and carracosta does make dodrio/whatever broken (which we cannot tell now), we can just ban whatever that broken mon is. Broken checks broken is a flawed argument since firstly you don't know what the future metagame will be like, and secondly you are just leaving an unhealthy threat in the metagame, thus making it worse than it has to be. Poliwrath wasn't suspected simply because it wasn't broken/unhealthy nor centralising enough (high usage =/=centralising).
Fair enough. My point was more that keeping the metagame in mind was important, instead of just banning things in a blank slate scenario. Also yes, Poliwrath was never broken; it was just a good example for saying that imo the health of the metagame is more important than anything else. I don't agree with Kay's assertion, but it was something interesting to consider
Fair enough. My point was more that keeping the metagame in mind was important, instead of just banning things in a blank slate scenario. Also yes, Poliwrath was never broken; it was just a good example for saying that imo the health of the metagame is more important than anything else. I don't agree with Kay's assertion, but it was something interesting to consider
I can see why my prior post didn't totally respond to what you were saying, as it was mainly related to your poliwrath example. My response to kinglers post should clarify why I don't think that argument is very valid. Also Poliwrath is not at all a good example, as again, it wasn't at all broken. That and barbaracle are two completely separate situations. The poliwrath comparison is like saying 'we aren't suspecting piloswine as it checks multiple mons like dodrio and zebstrika that could be broken otherwise', when we aren't suspecting it because it isn't at all unhealthy for the metagame.
The only actual comparable example I could think of is garbodor. After garb got banned tauros, sneasel, kecleon, and throh all got banned. Definitely the latter three were less threatening in the garb meta (though this doesn't mean they weren't broken), however although we knew that they would be harder to deal with, we still banned garbodor because it was unhealthy for the metagame. This is still different as barbaracle is much more subjectively broken, whereas garbodor was stupidly centralising and made the metagame unplayable. This is the closest comparison you can make, but it still isn't very good.
I mean 'broken checks broken' is bad and all but I think what Sir Kay was saying is that Barb is healthy for the meta in a way; I kinda agree that suspecting more than one mon does potentially hamper tiering as one of Barb/Costa being gone might make the other not broken and they DO have positive impacts for the metagame. Just chiming in cus everytime someone makes a small note of stuff like that it's kinda annoying to see the 'broken doesn't check broken!!!!' cherrypick.
Although I sorta agree with what you are saying, I don't think you aren't actually responding to what has been said. The posts had drifted away from sir kay's point, I wasn't at all implying that sir kay meant broken checks broken (I apologise if I did misunderstand al'akir's post).
Many subjectively broken pokemon could be healthy in a way, like garb checking several top tier threats. I don't think unhealthiness and healthiness should be 'weighed up' in a suspect, as that could leave a metagame centralised around an otherwise broken threat (like I said earlier, garbodor kept a ton of good pokes in check). If we are using this logic, then you would have to think about defensive carracosta and how that keeps stoutland and dodrio in check, which would just be stupid as that doesn't stop ss carracosta from being (arguably) overpowered.
Regarding posts specifically about the two suspects, most of these are just saying similar things (i'm not blaming you for this as there isn't too much to say) and misleading. These are all quotes about carracosta from different posts:
it's huge physical defense at +0 AND Solid Rock to boot mean its got SO many opportunities to settup, its ridiculous.
I don't even know if both these Pokemon are broken in a vacuum considering that looking at all the S, A, to B+ ranks the poll of Pokemon that they can set up on is basically limited to 3
Idk if three is the exact number, but what galbia said is a lot closer to the truth than what everyone else said. I could go through this and point out mistakes and huge overstatements (ngl some of them made me laugh), but I'm just going to give some advice to posters. Firstly, is what you are saying actually true? Before you say these mons have next to zero checks and counters, look at the viability lists and do some calcs. Secondly are you stretching the truth? If you are using words like 'very' just to make your argument sound more convincing then it is likely that you are. When making a post, try to write it from a neutral perspective, just like a for and against essay.
I can see why my prior post didn't totally respond to what you were saying, as it was mainly related to your poliwrath example. My response to kinglers post should clarify why I don't think that argument is very valid. Also Poliwrath is not at all a good example, as again, it wasn't at all broken. That and barbaracle are two completely separate situations. The poliwrath comparison is like saying 'we aren't suspecting piloswine as it checks multiple mons like dodrio and zebstrika that could be broken otherwise', when we aren't suspecting it because it isn't at all unhealthy for the metagame.
The only actual comparable example I could think of is garbodor. After garb got banned tauros, sneasel, kecleon, and throh all got banned. Definitely the latter three were less threatening in the garb meta (though this doesn't mean they weren't broken), however although we knew that they would be harder to deal with, we still banned garbodor because it was unhealthy for the metagame. This is still different as barbaracle is much more subjectively broken, whereas garbodor was stupidly centralising and made the metagame unplayable. This is the closest comparison you can make, but it still isn't very good.
To add to your garbodor statement (and correct me if I'm wrong), even if Barbaracle is "healthy" for this meta, which I don't think it is, banning him will simply show more threats that have gone overlooked similarly to tauros, sneasel, kecleon, and throh. From there we will be able to decide whether these threats were centralizing in regards to team building to begin with. From there anything could happen in terms of suspects and bans, but the end result is a meta that will stabilize eventually, allowing for more mons to become viable and a more diverse tier.
Also, I don't think Poliwrath was broken by any means, its departure has led to us see that many threats that poliwrath handled were essentially being stopped by one all-purpose mon. I rarely ran poliwrath in the previous meta and had to have separate stops to pawniard/smashers (mainly being sashed kadabra). So, in a sense, I feel as though Poliwrath leaving has diversified our meta to be less dependent on this one mon. Although Barbaracle isn't at all like poliwrath was, maybe its ban will show that we have been overlooking some threats that would otherwise be overpowered. Maybe not too ;)
With the right team support you can actually just spam return on both barbaracle and costa as after 2 returns costa will be really low and die to 1 round of lo recoil and a machoke bullet punch, barbaracle can die to 2 returns and a bullet punch pretty reliably too after rocks. Dodrio does the same thing with cb brave bird although i don't think dodrio is a big as a threat as stoutland is.
This post isn't implying i don't want them banned but just showing that you can just spam returns on the smashers if there weakened or you have a machoke with bullet punch or something similar (usually a good partner for cb doge).
Oh no...no, I am not a 'broken checks check broken so its ok' person and those arguments are terrible imo. Also I regret bringing up Poliwrath. It was a poor example, and now people are talking about a poke that left a month ago...
That being said, my main point was more of: 'is this poke unhealthy in the current meta' is a more important question than 'is this poke broken in a perfect-storm vacuum'. I objected to the final sentence only because I disagreed with the inherent philosophy. Yes, Barbaracle is difficult to stop AFTER the smash, but as galbia said barb can have a rather difficult time getting there alone. Things will always become more viable with bans, as things are more viable without. This vacuum philosophy is the trap of many suspects, and I didn't want an interesting point to die on the grounds of 'vacuum barb should be banned regardless of the impact on the current and future meta'. Perhaps I took that statement in particular wrong, but I see those kind of statements a lot.
Also, screw Carracosta. Idc if the defensive set checks normal, the smash set pushed the tier's definition of naturally fast enough from 'faster than ninetales (more than base 100)' to 'faster than +2 Carracosta (more than base 113)' and that is a massive difference. If your attacker isn't fast enough to avoid the stone edge or bulky enough to take the aqua jet, then it's a less viable fast attacker because of that alone. The list of attackers that fit this bill is very small, so this new speed definition makes a lot of pokes less viable who would have been fine otherwise simply cuz the new speed tier is extremely difficult to hit. It forces the meta to become faster and more offensive because of it, which would be marginally ok if costa wasn't also a great wallbreaker who can smash stall open and make stall go from dying to almost dead...which would have been a good option to deal with the scarfers and weaker fast attackers that arise and make for a healthy metagame cycle. Carracosta is unhealthy for the meta because the impact on the meta that it has is large by restricting teambuilding and even playstyle to a degree. This is what I want to see more tbh...discussion about the poke's impact on the actual metagame and its characteristics itself.
My opinion was just that the meta at this time can be considered quite in a state of imperfect balance which to be honest is quite a common and good state to be in a lot of the time in which pretty much some overly powerful mons are not really a big problem just because the metagame changes in a way that makes them not as effective for extreme preparation that in a cycle becomes non preparation and so on with new trends emerging as the time passes.
For example there was a state in the meta a few months ago in which Poliwrath dropped in popularity fsr and ppl were calling smashers broken since they could set up easily on stuff that enjoyed Poliwrath gone such as Pawniard and Rapidash while hating Poliwrath themselves then being counteracted by an increase in Poliwrath's and Scarf Sawsbuck/Simipour popularity and a rise in Stoutland to capitalize on lack of smashers again.
Now that Poliwrath is gone and probably for good the metagame kinda needs to settle in a different way to take into account for these Shell Smash users (which you might say is hard but they could also get past Poliwrath in previous metas just fine with some support) and while there is definitely one less way than in the past (sorry if I refrain from calling Torterra a great check to either one) they are still as hard as they were before to handle and they still have quite a reliable number of ways to be dealt with: for Barbaracle there is Scarf Simipour Sawsbuck and Raichu as well as Kadabra offensively + Mach Punch / Sucker Punch to follow up the hit it takes while setting up which is quite hard in itself just offensively which is way more answers than Pokemon not considered broken in their tier such as Feraligatr or Megazard X have + there is also a decent number of defensive ways which mainly translate to Tangela and Gourgeist which can definitely fit well in defensive and balanced teams especially with countermeasures to setting up which are, again, possible. Carracosta is probably the more broken of the two and the only one what im considering banning just because of its superior bulk and access to priority which make it quite hard to check even with speed (if you don't know if its Adamant or Jolly you are basically forced to have Kadabra or Scarf Sawsbuck/Simipour/Simisage/Floatzel to get away with it easily as well as a healthy Rotom-F I guess) and the ability to beat Tangela and Gourgeist finely while saccing the ability to beat a healthy Machoke or Stunfisk for example and Metang (anty;-;).
So basically my main point is that the trend these mons have set in limiting the spam of powerful normal types is actually healthy (and no crimzig you set up after foddering you dont switch them in risking Superpower) for the metagame independently from the fact if they are broken or not (only Carracosta imo).
There's not much left to say for me, honestly, but basically I strongly feel that Carracosta is broken and should be banned by virtue of the fact that it has next to no viable bulky responses, and its checks are limited to Scarfers that resist Aqua Jet. Basically, unless I am really confident that Costa won't find the opportunity to set up vs my team (but considering Costa's bulk + Solid Rock it probably will get the chance to set up), I feel pressured to use one of a very select few of Costa checks, checks that are usually not optimal choices for my team otherwise. It feels very restrictive, and even using one of these checks doesn't mean that Costa won't be able to sweep eventually or maim my team at least. Inbetween Stone Edge, Ice Beam, and Aqua Jet, it covers so much ground that it is almost guaranteed to put in work every battle and as a result, it is an overcentralizing and more or less broken threat that I feel needs to be banned. Having played for the suspect tour without Smashers just now I already noticed during teambuilding just how much better the meta gets without Costa in the tier; no longer do I have to run a Scarfer of a certain type in order to not get potentially 6-0d by Costa, no longer do I have to be afraid of using mons like Dodrio because they are Costa setup fodder and, as a result, way more risky to use than they should be.
I don't feel as strongly about Barbaracle, although I suppose we are better off without it. At least it is checked by one or two more Scarfers than Costa, as well as mons with powerful priority (although admittedly, we don't have a whole lot of that atm), and the fact that it struggles more with bulky Grass types than Costa is something else that makes it easier to deal with. Nonetheless, many of the things that apply to Costa still apply to Barb to an extent and make it what I consider to be an unhealthy presence in the tier. I'm not sure if I would vote ban or not, though; I don't think it is broken, but I do think it is unhealthy for the metagame and that we would benefit from its ban. Whether this is good enough of a reason for me to vote ban is something I am still unsure of, for I don't think I can simply vote ban on Barbaracle because I want to ban it rather than because I feel like it ought to be banned.
So I got the reqs and already mentioned my feelings on Carracosta, so I will post about my thoughts on Barbaracle. It certainly deserves to be suspected and is a force to keep in mind during teambuilding, but there are ways around it. Stall has options to beat Barb, Balance has options to beat it, and so does Offense to a degree. Barbaracle is just not as scary as Carracosta.
Barbaracle might not be as scary, but it does affect the metagame to a huge degree. Barbaracle matches remind me a lot of OU matches with offensive megas. The Barb team sits down and figures out what hurdles it will overcome to make Barbaracle sweep, while the opposing side figures out what they need to keep in order to stop the mentioned Barb sweep. All poke matches should be like this, but Barb is so...obviously the pivotal point of the match. But that is the main difference between Carracosta and Barbaracle: Barb can be stopped more easily than Carracosta.
Stall can carry enough bulk to stop Barb, and offense can still revenge kill the thing after a smash. The lack of priority and the lack of solid bulk really weighs down Barbaracle in contrast to Carracosta (not to say Carracosta is all THAT bulky). Barb is faster, but it can still be outsped. Barb might have a more powerful Water STAB, but PU is filled with physically bulky Grass types that don't care. Barb has Poison Jab, but that sometimes is not even enough to push through...it kills offensive Tangela but gives Barb an almost-autoloss to Gourgeist. Barb is simply not as good of a wallbreaker as Carracosta, and the speed is only really pivotal against unprepared offense anyway. Offense can even arguably run the underrated Sticky Web to beat Barbaracle's speed...at +1, Barb only outspeeds base 107 or lower, and that is doable for offense. The lack of bulk even makes it so that simple offensive pressure can keep Barb from smashing. With all of the pokes that are currently highly viable in PU, Barb can only set up on a fraction.
Don't get me wrong: Barbaracle is VERY good. It can sweep entire teams with ease if you play it right. It is definitely a dominating presence, but it is not entirely unstoppable. Its healthiness is debatable either way, with some saying that it keeps Normal and Flying Spam in check with the others saying that Barb can easily win with proper support. Maybe it will be broken later...but then we can just suspect it again with whatever rises to the top with Carracosta almost certainly leaving. I am still not 100% on which way I would vote if given the chance, but I still have some time to really think this through and be sure.
So I got the reqs and already mentioned my feelings on Carracosta, so I will post about my thoughts on Barbaracle. It certainly deserves to be suspected and is a force to keep in mind during teambuilding, but there are ways around it. Stall has options to beat Barb, Balance has options to beat it, and so does Offense to a degree. Barbaracle is just not as scary as Carracosta.
Barbaracle might not be as scary, but it does affect the metagame to a huge degree. Barbaracle matches remind me a lot of OU matches with offensive megas. The Barb team sits down and figures out what hurdles it will overcome to make Barbaracle sweep, while the opposing side figures out what they need to keep in order to stop the mentioned Barb sweep. All poke matches should be like this, but Barb is so...obviously the pivotal point of the match. But that is the main difference between Carracosta and Barbaracle: Barb can be stopped more easily than Carracosta.
Stall can carry enough bulk to stop Barb, and offense can still revenge kill the thing after a smash. The lack of priority and the lack of solid bulk really weighs down Barbaracle in contrast to Carracosta (not to say Carracosta is all THAT bulky). Barb is faster, but it can still be outsped. Barb might have a more powerful Water STAB, but PU is filled with physically bulky Grass types that don't care. Barb has Poison Jab, but that sometimes is not even enough to push through...it kills offensive Tangela but gives Barb an almost-autoloss to Gourgeist. Barb is simply not as good of a wallbreaker as Carracosta, and the speed is only really pivotal against unprepared offense anyway. Offense can even arguably run the underrated Sticky Web to beat Barbaracle's speed...at +1, Barb only outspeeds base 107 or lower, and that is doable for offense. The lack of bulk even makes it so that simple offensive pressure can keep Barb from smashing. With all of the pokes that are currently highly viable in PU, Barb can only set up on a fraction.
Don't get me wrong: Barbaracle is VERY good. It can sweep entire teams with ease if you play it right. It is definitely a dominating presence, but it is not entirely unstoppable. Its healthiness is debatable either way, with some saying that it keeps Normal and Flying Spam in check with the others saying that Barb can easily win with proper support. Maybe it will be broken later...but then we can just suspect it again with whatever rises to the top with Carracosta almost certainly leaving. I am still not 100% on which way I would vote if given the chance, but I still have some time to really think this through and be sure.
I'm a little confused by this post. You're saying to not ban barb because all teams have a way around it. What ways do you suggest that aren't stressful on teambuilding? Sure Gourgeist is a counter, defensive Tangela if healthy, metang although it lacks recovery. Yes I can run scarf Raichu a lot. Other than that, what ways to deal with it are you talking about? You've basically said "it's manageable" with no examples. I can't really think of anything else outside of kadabra, and even that loses to dual chop. There's also a lot of stress on it being outsped by offense, but only scarfchu beats jolly barb which is far more threatening rn imo because it can beat scarf buck/simi which are getting far more common. Can you give any serious examples of how teams actually deal with barb in a way that doesn't make it totally overcentralizing?
Edit: Anty's response to this was that we have more checks than these, but they all have to be at high health. So you could probably mention Dusknoir or phys def missy, it's just much harder to keep them healthy than these checks
