Metagame np: Stage 3 - Grace (Carracosta and Barbaracle Have Been Banned!)

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Twix

jicama
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Bibarel @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Waterfall
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Look, it's a Shell Smash Check that can also set up rocks!
252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bibarel: 153-180 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 



Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Impish Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis

Look, it's a Shell Smash Check that fits on most standard teams

+2 4 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 294-348 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (switches in on it shell smashing after rocks and lives at full)

4 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 148-177 (39.6 - 47.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 266-316 (71.3 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 286-339 (76.6 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (switches in on it shell smashing after rocks and lives at full)
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
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Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Impish Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis

Look, it's a Shell Smash Check that fits on most standard teams

+2 4 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 294-348 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (switches in on it shell smashing after rocks and lives at full)

4 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 148-177 (39.6 - 47.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 266-316 (71.3 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 286-339 (76.6 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (switches in on it shell smashing after rocks and lives at full)
Neat, but I would rather just run Yache Berry.

+2 4 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Gourgeist-Super: 183-216 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
 

termi

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Neat, but I would rather just run Yache Berry.

+2 4 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Gourgeist-Super: 183-216 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
Investing in sdef is no big deal though, seeing how geist's defense stat already os massive as it is and it probably doesn't suffer in any way from going mixed as a result. In any case, giving up your item slot in order to check something a little bit better when the same can be achieved by adjusting yr EVs is not a great idea,especially considering geist's a defensive mon and resist berries are usually not recommended on those (generally speaking they work best on setup sweepers and offensive lures)
 

MZ

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Ok so rn I think it's pretty clear that setup sweepers are godly. Pawn, Torterra, and Wrath were great checks to plenty of setup sweepers that just left, and offensive teams basically prey on Kadabra to stop people from bopping them, which can get overloaded by teams that just run two of them (Fraxure and Barb, Costa and Golduck, DUAL CHOP FRAXURE). It'll get easier to check stuff after smashers are sorted (I think costa is bork :v) but even then, setup sweepers and offensive waters in general (Golduck, Simipour, Floatzel, Politoed, Costa/Baracle if no ban, swanna, basculin) are all good because few checks and so many. Idk just a few rambling thoughts.

The other thing I came here to say is that all the people theorymonning that rose won't be S anymore are just dumb and this is ridiculous .-. Rose got better with the shift, and even if I think it was S more for effect on the tier rather than how it actually performed before, it's really good now, with the main drawback simply being not running Geist/Tangela as smash checks. Defensive is better rn because it checks most offensive waters other than Swanna and Basculin which are more rare and have more exploitable flaws but offensive is still amazing and everyone should use Anty's Leaf Storm set. Also toxic spikes + LO kill costa fast and Tspikes/Spikes help wear down barb which is nice.

Puts in work vs Anty the 26.5k legend and creator of the set
Puts in work vs Magnemite
Puts in work vs a bad team but Rose is amazing and I don't have more replays
and ready2go202 sucks

Also setup sweeper spam is good and linoone is actually godly

edit: idk what happened to the text at the bottom
 
Ok, I think almost everybody at this point in this current meta thinks this and I speak for a lot of people here: we need a suspect test of Barbaracle and Carracosta. Since the departure of Poliwrath and Torterra, the meta has been dominated by set up sweepers and Water-types, but most prominately these two. While Poliwrath wasn't the strongest check to Barbaracle, it definitely discouraged setup at low health due to its ability to pick it off with Vacuum Wave. As for Carracosta, Poliwrath completely walled this unless it ran Zen Headbutt, and even at that point, it could easily revenge kill it. Tank Torterra was a strong check to both Shell Smash Barbaracle and Carracosta, as it could live any hit from either of the two after a Shell Smash (discluding Ice Beam Carracosta), and KO in return. Because the two are no longer here to help keep Barbaracle and Carracosta in check, Barbaracle is able to run a stronger attack over Aerial Ace, which while it becomes more threatening, it is extremely concerning but nothing compared to Carracosta. With Poliwrath gone, Carracosta has little to no reason not to run Ice Beam, meaning common defensive checks such as Tangela and Gourgeist-XL are really no longer reliable checks. Because of this, we have been forced to resort to offensive checks, including Scarfed Sawsbuck, Scarfed Simipour, Scarfed Floatzel, and especially Kadabra.

The main reason I think Carracosta (and arguably Barbaracle) are now banworthy is because they have completely shaped the meta and almost forced it to become offensive. It has made defensive teams somewhat unviable, as with the help of entry hazard support, there's almost no way of stopping a +2 +2 +2 Life Orb Carracosta. Certain checks are a must for all teams at the moment, and most of them aren't even completely reliable. Overall, the meta would be so much healthier without Carracosta and Barbaracle, which is why I am strongly suggesting and supporting a suspect of the two.
 
grgr costa ._. totally down for this suspect, costa can literally just run its standard set and truck everything or tech for like tangela etc. and lose v little overall sweeping capability. barba is broken in a similar fashion. this new meta seems interesting for sure, those two defos need to go lol. without poliwrath there's little offensively to check that and smashers have more flexibility in movesets!
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ya can agree on a Costa suspect, but not to sold on Barbaracle, Cara has access to a better water STAB in Waterfall, and has access to moves like Ice Beam to hit checks in Tangela and Gourgeist-S, while Barba has to rely on moves like Aerial Ace to deal with these threats. Idk honestly, but I am sure that both smashers need a looking into...
 

MZ

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Ya can agree on a Costa suspect, but not to sold on Barbaracle, Cara has access to a better water STAB in Waterfall, and has access to moves like Ice Beam to hit checks in Tangela and Gourgeist-S, while Barba has to rely on moves like Aerial Ace to deal with these threats. Idk honestly, but I am sure that both smashers need a looking into...
Actually, aerial ace was just so it could still hit wrath. Now you can run Poison Jab which OHKOs offensive tangela and standard gogoat after rocks as well as being a good 100% accurate option versus not bulky things like mime and rap or whatever

edit: almost OHKO offensive tang, not quite, thanks anty
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Tangela: 258-304 (77.2 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
I would say yes to suspecting Costa, it is so good against defensive teams that they literally just faint upon it's stare. It has an answer to the multitude of physically defensive Grass types in the form of Ice Beam, which also checks Roselia, the most threatening Pokemon in the tier behind Carracosta itself. This is something Barbaracle lacks, not to mention it is strictly a physical attacker, and walled more easily. It is also crippled effectively by its walls such as Roselia and Gourgeist-S. I think Carracosta should get a suspect but Barbaracle should not.

EDIT: Like Magnemite said, I think now that Barbaracle is more unhealthy than broken, but my thoughts may change again.

EDIT2: What I meant about Barbaracle is that now that Wrath is gone Poison Jab is the preferred coverage move now, which does not guarantee the OHKO on defensive Roselia:
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Then Roselia can OHKO back with a Giga Drain.
 
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I would say yes to suspecting Costa, it is so good against defensive teams that they literally just faint upon it's stare. It has an answer to the multitude of physically defensive Grass types in the form of Ice Beam, which also checks Roselia, the most threatening Pokemon in the tier behind Carracosta itself. This is something Barbaracle lacks, not to mention it is strictly a physical attacker, and walled more easily. It is also crippled effectively by its walls such as Roselia and Gourgeist-S. I think Carracosta should get a suspect but Barbaracle should not.
However, Barbaracle still can deal enough damage to most of its checks with Aerial Ace or X-Scissor...
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 146-172 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Which should be the bulkiest thing that could be stopping Barbaracle...
And some others like Defensive Gourgeist Super:
Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 190-224 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, something like Roselia shouldn't exactly be considered a counter since:
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Roselia: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Which means that Barbaracle has a decent chance to kick out Roselia at +2, just with one turn of setup and considering the use of White Herb... And u know what? It can even be evd to handle some super effective attacks like Scarf Raichu Thunderbolt...
252 SpA Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 68 SpD Barbaracle: 240-284 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Those Evs can be taken from speed, since even without those is faster than Jolly Carracosta (with just 192 speed evs, reaches 220 speed, one pont faster than fully invested base 60 and 440 speed at +2, being then faster than the whole unboosted tier...)
That kind of things let Barbaracle be as tough as Costa even without being mixed... Don't think that I'm dismissing Costa, since that thing even being slow as heck, its also powerful, bulky and has STAB priority but I personally think that Barbaracle is just as broken as Costa!
 
Roselia has never been a Barb check, especially since fully pdef Roselia is really mediocre, even more now than it was before because you likely need to rely on it as your only Floatzel / Simipour check since it's one of the only ones that exists.

Really the thing that puts Barbaracle over the edge for me is that outside of the very mediocre Scarf Raichu every scarfer loses to Jolly Barbaracle, meaning that the only checks that can't be worn down easily due to lack of recovery are Kadabra, defensive Tangela, Scarf Raichu, and Gourgeist-XL. That's an awfully limited amount of checks for such a dangerous setup sweeper. If you don't have a check to Barbaracle you have no way of hoping to beat a well played Jumpluff + Barbaracle team, since it sets up so easily with Memento support it's not even funny. There are a few other random mons that aren't OHKOed by +2 Barbaracle like pdef Metang and Gabite, but the problem is that hazards are stupidly easy to set up and keep up when the best mon in the tier (outside of arguably Carracosta and Barbaracle themselves) can easily set them up on a ton of common threats, and there are only four hazard removers that I'd even consider using right now (these are Swanna, Pelipper, Vullaby, and Vibrava, before you mention spinners Armaldo is pretty bad as it gets worn down way too easily and is taken advantage of by too much to do its job effectively, and Avalugg and Torkoal are straight up horrible for the same reasons), none of which are particularly easy to fit on a team.

Really Barbaracle is much more unhealthy than broken, especially when you consider that every single Barbaracle check bar Kadabra loses to Carracosta, and every single Carracosta check besides Kadabra loses to Jolly Barbaracle, meaning that without using Kadabra you basically have to dedicate two teamslots to two Pokemon which can basically be used interchangeably.

Also pls stop using Aerial Ace and X Scissor, Poison Jab is 100% better
 
Im pretty sure everyone is down for a suspect/ban on Barbaracle and Carracosta.

With Poliwrath gone there is almost nothing stopping these two as everyone has said there are limited checks/counters for them. Both have taken Poliwraths place as the mons to shape the entire meta. Forced to have something concrete to stop both of them the best example being Kadabra and while Carracosta is definitely the better of the two Barbaracle isnt far behind and equally hinders teambuilding.

the (hopefully) eventual ban should make the tier much healthier and could open up for a lot more innovation.
 
Just read the rules for the thread. Apparently I can offer up predictions on what will rise next month. Galbia, this means you have no reason to delete this since I'm not shitposting and the rules say I can do this. Anyway, onto my prediction:
Carracosta: Some people say Costa is broken (myself included). Even with the Baton Pass nerf, it's a deadly set-up sweeper with Shell Smash in its arsenal. It's also very bulky and has the Solid Rock ability, which cuts the damage dealt by super effective moves.Even if it doesn't get banned, it'll definitely rise to NU next month.
Carracosta can't learn Baton Pass anyway. Please include on your posts informations thast can't be simply glanced from reading the dex. That's also implicit in rules
 

fish anemometer

I ❤️HOLE
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I'm actually up for a ban of caracosta without a suspect test. I haven't seen anybody that thinks it should stay in the tier and a suspect test will just be a waste of time. A barbaracle test is fine, costa should just leave asap.
 
Announcement

The PU council has decided that there will be a suspect test for Carracosta and Barbaracle! This test will last until September 1st.

Unlike in past suspect tests, this time we will have a COIL requirement of 2400. For those of you unfamiliar with the way PU does suspect tests, in order to get on the rotating council, and by extension be able to vote, you must fulfill the subjective requirement as well. The subjective requirement is making good, thought-out posts in this thread, as well as having at least some presence in the PU community. You don't necessarily have to be a well-known community member, but at least having some experience in PU outside of this suspect test is important.

Finally, here are sample sets for each of the two Pokemon being suspected:

Carracosta @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Naughty / Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Beam / Waterfall

Barbaracle @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Razor Shell
- Stone Edge
- Poison Jab
 
suspect tour on friday 21/8 and friday 28/8 at 3pm EST

finalists should get reqs unless there is a high number of ppl then also semifinalists will

first tour will have the suspect tests allowed second will have them banned to shaken things up :)

have fun and dont post about banning shell smash thats not happening

should have suspected clefairy stoutland sr etc etc also wont work :(
20222_933257070071445_6320612899983624807_n.jpg
 
Welp.


These two mons are easily one of the most threatening mons in the tier, and with the tier shift and Victreebel's ban they got a lot better. Their abilities are extremely good and if they set up, if you don't have a counter or check, it's basically GG. Costa is especially broken with it's access to priority Aqua Jet and having decent bulk and solid rock to boot, but Barbaracle's added speed and ability Tough Claws is also appreciated. I probably won't be voting, but lemme just say they don't have many checks.
 
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I feel Carracosta is easier to check than Barbaracle, because it's very low speed means it is outspeed by a decent number of scarfers, even at +2. Nevertheless if one or the other sets up, most of the time it's gg unless you have a lot of priority/scarfed mons. They are especially deadly because of their Water/Rock typing, which means virtually nothing in PU resist its dual STABs and common defensive mons like Pelipper and Avalugg are hit super-effectively by them. The only reliable checks are bulky grass types like Leafeon and Gourgeist, but both are suspectable to entry hazards.
 

CyclicCompound

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Although I probably won't be voting in this suspect test, I'm going to comment on one aspect of Carracosta and Barbaracle that I think really heightens its brokenness.

Anyone who's played PU by this point knows that Jumpluff + Barbaracle/Carracosta makes it incredibly easy to guarantee a sweep, and I agree that it's pretty overwhelming on its own. But another aspect of the metagame that's super helpful to Barb/Costa besides Jumpluff is the fact that PU has a lot of other offensive sweepers that synergize ridiculously well with them and do a great job carving up teams that are "prepared" for them. My favorite example is Rock Polish Regice: it absolutely shits on the scarfers trying to check Barb/Costa (for example, Scarf Simipour does ~30% max with Hydro Pump), and tears through every Grass-type in the tier with its Ice-type STAB. It can be walled by dedicated special walls, but most of them are in turn utter setup fodder for Barb/Costa themselves. Fraxure is another very able sweeper that easily takes advantage of the plethora of Pokemon frequently locked into moves that might prevent Barb/Costa from setting up, such as Simipour, Raichu, and Floatzel, and it can put enough pressure on defensive Grass-types with Poison Jab that it can be difficult for them to come back in afterwards and stop Barb/Costa from sweeping. It's also got Dual Chop to mess with Kadabra if it really wants to. But where it gets really suckish for the opponent is that even if Fraxure's running Outrage instead, Kadabra still has to "choose" between RKing Fraxure or Barb/Costa. Once its Focus Sash is used up, Kadabra just becomes dead weight against a boosted Barb/Costa.

These are just two of the best examples, but PU's got a few other viable set-up sweepers that can function in a similar way and provide valuable support to Barb/Costa, so it's not at all hard to incorporate this kind of strategy into a team.

The real kicker is that ALL of these Pokemon can set up really easily with Jumpluff's support, not just Barb/Costa. Say Barb/Costa is forced out early somehow and you lose them? No worries, your backup sweeper will have an easy time setting up, and likely an easy time sweeping if Barb/Costa already got in a hit or two before going down. Get off an early-game Sleep Powder? Take advantage of it with your secondary sweeper while keeping Jumpluff and Barb/Costa alive and well in the reserve. The basic point is, Barbaracle and Carracosta have a lot of options for helpful offensive teammates, and many of them fare quite well against the few things that can actually pressure or stop Barb/Costa. And this isn't even taking into account the fact that Roselia/Piloswine are godly at both guaranteeing hazards and fulfilling their other important roles, and that powerful wallbreakers like Dodrio, Ursaring, and Stoutland are plentiful and very easy to fit on a team.

It's probably pretty obvious to anyone reading this that I am leaning towards pro-ban right now. And while there hasn't been much pro/anti-ban debate yet, I guess another thing I'm trying to say is that for anyone who might disagree that Barbaracle and Carracosta are powerful enough on their own to warrant a ban, their individual power is only half of the story. Looking at them from the context of the metagame as a whole, they're in what is likely the most optimal metagame for them ever right now, with a solid support partner in Jumpluff, a dynamic between hazard-layers and hazard-removers that strongly favors the presence of hazards, very capable wallbreakers, and offensive partners that can easily take advantage of each others' shortcomings. In other words, I'm seeing that the metagame is enabling Barbaracle and Carracosta to be extremely effective at what they do to the point that it's hard to justify running anything else because it's just so damn effective.
 

MZ

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Ok for a suspect thread this is really dead, so I guess I'll post now to try to get this some activity. I have done some of my council laddering, but so far I've been haxed out by 1. attract 2. smash ice fang huntail flinches 3. general annoyance's joke team 4. guy who leaves piloswine in on roselia a lot 5. thrash tangled feet dodrio so yeah, the ladder both tells you just about nothing about the suspect and also manages to get wins literally no matter how well you play or what you try to do. I think the tours are a far better step in the right direction and people should post here more if they want to get their stuff across because at this point reaching COIL is more a matter of RNG than skill.

I think a ban needs to happen, that's pretty much obvious by now. They're really strong, make you run kadabra and other assorted checks all the time, both require different checks for the most part... it's not fun. The meta has come down to trying to set up twice / take out kadabra and set up before your opponent does first, and the balanced/bulkier teams are really hard pressed to deal with the massive amount of threats in the tier when they're already forced to run kadabra/two individual smash checks. To me it's more a question of "if one left would the other be broken"? That's the main anti-ban both reasoning I've heard and if anybody can prove that one would be ok without the other then that'd be cool but I don't think there's a good way to tell. For now I cant find any reason to not just ban both and potentially retest one or the other later. I guess this wasn't too long, but ppl should really post here more.

edit: the suspect still isn't in the room intro and we still don't have coil, so at least extend the time imo
 

Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Alright I got my Reqs the other day I so I'll voice my thoughts on Barbaracle and Carracosta. I'll start with the more potent threat:

Carracosta: The thing that makes Carracosta so broken is not only the lethality of the Life orb set with Priority to boot, but the ease at which it can find these setup opportunities. With access to Solid rock and huge defences, Costa can setup on nearly all Physical attackers lacking a very strong SE move (Rapidash's Wild Charge only does 43-51%). Don't even get me started on things like choice locked Stoutland or Purugly as those are very easy to setup on. Unlike Barbaracle Costa rarely really needs memento or screen support and scarf revenge killers have to be able to eat a +2 LO Aqua Jet, something Raichu and Zebstrika Struggle doing.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 242-285 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 218-257 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The other thing Costa offers over Barbaracle is the potency of it's mixed Ice beam set which destroys all checks previously thought to stop it, such as Tangela and Physical Defensive Gourgiest Super. With all these walls seemingly unable to stop Costa, I sometimes find myself saying GG to myself after I get rocks up or do a tiny bit of chip damage to Zebstrika or Kadabra and finding the opportunity to shell smash (which isn't hard).
Carracosta is an obvious ban in my opinion.

Barbaracle:
So the Barnacle isn't quite as potent as broke turtle, but don't let that fool you as a jolly Barbaracle Shell Smashes it outspeeds the entire unboosted tier and most Scarfers barring Raichu, Zebstrika, and Electrode. Barbaracle often needs support in order to Shell Smash, but a choice locked Stoutland can often be enough, and once it Smashes it has very few checks namely:

Full health Defensive Tangela
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 174-206 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gourgiest Large
+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

...as well as a few bulky mons such as Eviolite Machoke
The remaining checks are fast scarfed revenge killers like Raichu.

The only issue with these checks is that they must maintain very high HP the entire battle, which can be difficult in this hazard stacking tier and poor options of hazard removal. Because of these issues I also believe Barbaracle should be banned.
 
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Shadestep

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i think the outcome of this suspect test will really affect teambuilding, if they get banned ofcourse. PU already lost a good amount of mons in the latest shift, and Carracosta + Barbaracle are huge threats to almost all teams, hugely affecting teambuilding.

Barb + Carra possibly leaving the tier will open up doors for new team constructions, not being limited so much by these 2 monsters. i think that if they get banned, it will be good for the tier as it will be a refreshing blow and inspirations for new creative teams + cores.

im still getting reqs ATM (ladder is dead smh) but have noticed that most teams outside of all the sample teams are definitely well prepared for Barb + Carra, making it easy to 'counter-team' those people.

anyway, I'm very interested in what the outcome of this will be, I'm personally going for ban
 

Grim

The Ghost
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Carracosta is broken. Your team need at least two Pokemon to cover both the Waterfall and Ice Beam variants (unless you're using Palpitoad which is terrible) and even then you have to find out which move it carries. Offensively Carracosta is easier to check because any faster Pokemon that resists Aqua Jet and hits it decently hard can do it, but there are very few Pokemon that fulfil these criteria and they are all Choice Scarf users or screwed over if the Carracosta user is using the superior nature, Jolly. Barbaracle is often seen as a worse Carracosta for some reason but it is actually the smasher I prefer most of the times because of its better matchup against the best playstyle in PU, offense. Unlike Carracosta, Barbaracle is walled by Tangela and Gourgeist-Super, but in return it outspeeds all the Choice Scarf users that are able to revenge kill Carracosta, with the superior Jolly nature of course. Like Megazard said, many PU matches, especially offense against offense, revolve around who manages to damage the Kadabra first and then using Memento with Jumpluff. Carracosta and Barbaracle are huge teambuilding constraints that cause people to use Kadabra or even Ditto to revenge kill both Barbaracle and Carracosta. And while it is completely possible to make a good team without one of the two big smashers, it is very hard to not use standard Hazards / Smasher / Jumpluff / Kadabra / Second sweeper / Zebstrika check teams because they are just that effective. Both are an easy ban for me, looking forward to a fresh PU.

Also Machoke does not check Barbaracle lol
 
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Costa, unlike Barbaracle, also has Solid Rock as an ability so as I found out the hard way it is sure to live Zebstrika's Volt Switch and other moderate super-effective attacks. Plus given the relative lack of priority in PU makes Costa and Barbaracle extremely dangerous, which is why reliable hazard setters are important, another thing which PU lacks compared to other tiers. Also I don't see why Carracosta isn't also walled by Tangela, Ice Beam can ohko it but that would sacrifice some coverage or priority.

I find Lickilicky to be a good match against the above type of offense, as it checks nearly all special attackers, can 2hko/possibly paralyze Kadabra and can tank a hit from Barbaracle if carrying Poison Jab over Cross Chop and phaze it out with Dragon Tail.
 
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