My point, as it stands, is that Donphan is the (arguably) most effective and undeniably common spinner. That's good news for Froslass.Donphan may be one of the most common spinners, but it's not the only one. Also, just like with Mismagius and the others, if the Donphan user predicts the switch-in, an Assurance or Earthquake (in the case of Froslass) will deal massive damage to Froslass, and it's likely to KO since Froslass will rarely set up multiple layers of Spikes unscathed. Hitmontop is also quite popular, and has decent special bulk to take Ice Beams. Blastoise, Kabutops, and Cloyster all learn Rapid Spin as well as resisting Ice Beam (Cloyster 4x resists), and the prior two have access to priority to avoid being finished off by Destiny Bond.
How is that even remotely missing the point? The point IS that Froslass improved. In fact you seem to be doing what you accuse me of later in your post, 'twisting the facts to suit your argument'. Scarf Sleep was a pretty effective way (I did pretty well on the ladder myself with that Roserade lead if you recall) of shutting down Froslass without having to use Ambipom or Crobat, which obviously doesn't suit everyone's team, and Ambipom is also meh vs Froslass (50/50, its a prediction game).Sure, but then you could say that Scarfed sleep is much riskier in this metagame now because of Dugtrio, if we want to continue down that road. Not to mention that Scarfed sleep is already risky enough as it is. Just don't try turning that into another instance where Froslass has potentially improved, because that is completely missing the point.
Where did I say that Ambipom was a bad lead? My mistake was not including Ambipom, but I never once said it was a bad lead when Crobat was around. Ambipom was sort of being shrugged off as an argument because honestly its not remotely reliable at stopping Froslass when it's 2HKOed AND lured out Pokemon like Regirock/Registeel/Steelix for an easy, free Stealth Rock. Additionally, it was stopped by Crobat, which was a common lead at the time. My point was that Ambipom isn't really a reason to retest Froslass.Lemmiwinks said:Total bullshit. Ambipom was still a good lead even back then, and matching up badly against Crobat turn one did not mean instant loss, or even necessarily a disadvantage. I used an Ambipom lead back then for a good while and it was very useful because its utility against most other leads (especially Froslass) far outweighed its disadvantage against Crobat leads, which could be comfortably played around. I often just used Ambipom as a lure for an attack that Ampharos could switch into. Now obviously not everybody did that, but as zorbees mentioned, the statistics show that Ambipom was very high up in the lead stakes for much of the time that Crobat was around, so people must have been happy to keep on using it for the purpose of winning matches.
I know you did, I'd just rather rely on stats then you being able to get to the top 10 leader board with your 'different leads'. In this argument I never doubted your ability to ladder well (which you do very well, who am I kidding). This is ironically an example you of ignoring my argument.There's also the fact that me and many others had lots of success with numerous other leads in that period. I frequented the top 10 on the ladder for months using a variety of different leads, Hariyama and Cloyster just being two of them, so no I'm not having this blatant lie of yours that you were restricted to just three lead setups in order to be competitive. It seems to me that you're just twisting the facts to suit your argument, then simply repeating your argument over and over again whilst ignoring everyone else's refutations. That's childish of you tbh, though it isn't the first time.
Where in your post did you once refute my original point (which was "Why would we test Froslass when things have just gotten easier for it rather then 'harder' with this new metagame.")? You didn't. Of course I childishly responded to these irrelevant arguments involving Ambipom and other Rapid Spinners, but these Pokemon were there when Froslass was banned. All of them. Your arguments should really be about how there is a reason for a test because X and Y make it harder for Froslass to set up now etc. I can help you with an example if you like: Alakhazam. Alakazam is a great addition to the UU tier, and it has a fast Taunt + Dual Screen strategy to stop Slass from doing anything to bad. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
Can we get back onto the topic of my original point?
EDIT: Lemmi this isn't how you usually act :(