NP: UU - Dragonfly

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

At d2m:

Your arguments were almost ALL irrelevant, except for one which proves my point further.

Electrode is the only Pokemon you listed that has a niche in the lead slot of a team. All of the other Pokemon you listed DON'T function well as leads. The "overall (all of the reasons it was banned add up to this)" reason Froslass was suspected and banned was because it forced you to use a Scarfed Sleeper or Crobat to stop spikes from getting up first turn. This fulfilled the support characteristic in every way, because either it fills the support characteristic from setting up Spikes, or it fills it by forcing you to use a Scarf Sleep move first turn, which is easily avoidable with Chansey everywhere, meaning it could just set up spikes later while you have no chance of doing anything at all.

On top of this, it can spin block for itself so Donphan being able to spin is a pretty argument, especially when it gets Rocked by Ice Beam. Otherwise it has to come in after spikes are set up and take a ton of damage while trying to spin...Good Luck with that. That's the sprinkles on the icing I guess, considering I already said Snow Cloak was the icing :)

EDIT:

I also think Rhyperior is being 'underhyped' again. I don't want to list the calcs (I did a lot last night) so you can just believe me or do them yourself, but with the right EVs in the Sand, Rhyperior 2HKOes Milotic (252/252+) 47% (I think, it might be more...) of the time with an unboosted EQ, while also not being OHKOed by Surf (even after a Sub). So Rhyperior can come in on one of the millions of Pokemon it can come in on, set up a Substitute, let Milotic come in, and spam Earthquake on it, and possibly even 2HKO it. This opens up a hole for a shit ton of Pokemon.

Taking Rhyperior down in the Sand is going to be next to impossible without Milotic as well.

So Ambipom functions badly as a lead then? Good luck trying to argue that one.

I agree that d2m's argument is pretty irrelevant, but what is even more irrelevant IMO is MS trying to argue Taunt / Ice Beam mindgames in Froslass' favor. That shit goes both ways, and almost always serves to go against Froslass because it makes Froslass' main job (Spikes setup) more uncertain.

As for your Rhyperior in the sand argument, don't forget that Sand requires a specific strategy and set of Pokemon to work well, especially in UU. And if you were arguing for Rhyperior having suspect-worthy power under Sand (though I don't think you are, and you shouldn't IMO) then that says more about Hippopotas being Suspect worthy rather than Rhyperior.

 

[A.P.]

The best Moltres can muster (Modest Specs HP Grass/Water) isn't even a 2HKO against 4/0/Adamant Rhyperior. And most Moltres run HP Fighting/Ice instead, which does half as much.

What the hell? If this thing can 2HKO things like Slowbro, Feraligatr, and Azumarill with stuff like FB/AS + HP Grass, how can it not beat Rhyperior?

I have never seen any Moltres run either one of those. What the hell does Ice cover? Dragon? The only one of those it has to worry about is Altaria. Fire Blast + Air Slash + Grass is neutral on everything, with the last spot usually being Roost.

It's still not a Rhyperior counter, but it never runs those 2 HPs.

I never said it was a counter, Lemmiwinks pointed out that Rhyperior would be a useful check to Flyers, and I agreed, but said that Moltres would pwn it.

Only if Moltres is already in. A predicted switch + Stone Edge = bad times for Moltres.

See above.

Moltres is usually choiced, so rhyperior just has to come in on the air slash or fire blast. to force a switch (and set up SR, to stop moltres from coming back for a while). That being said it's still much better against physical fliers, as it takes next to nothing from Honchkrow (tank set is never 3HKOd by superpower due to leftovers)

Moltres is almost never Choiced, except as a lead, and even then, the majority run LO.

---

How is Moltres not beastly in UU? It can easily OHKO almost half the tier, and can counter many Pokémon too, with the right support. This thing can 2HKO Slowbro and Feraligatr with FB + HP Grass easily, and even Azumarill falls to the combo. Only Milotic can hold up against its wrath, and even it, if it takes any prior damage (e.g. switching into a Fire Blast, then getting scared out by a Grasser [NOTE: With SR down]), HP Grass is an easy 2HKO.

Point is, you guys are all underestimating Moltres. The only two Pokémon in the tier that can reliably stand up to it are Milotic and Chansey (and maybe a rare bulky fire, but that's very uncommon). I'm not saying that it can counter a bunch of Pokémon and beat half the tier, but it has the defensive abilities to beat many one-on-one, and the speed and attack to just outright sweep as well.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Point is, you guys are all underestimating Moltres. The only two Pokémon in the tier that can reliably stand up to it are Milotic and Chansey (and maybe a rare bulky fire, but that's very uncommon

Altaria? Miltank? Regirock? You are perhaps overselling the lack of counters point just a little. More to the point is the fact that 90 base speed isn't super quick even in UU, and plenty can outpace and threaten an OHKO, or carries a strong Aqua Jet. Needless to say that switching in and out throughout a battle is far from straightforward for Moltres.

This is not to say that Moltres isn't a good Pokemon, no far from it, everyone knows that it is an extremely good Pokemon. But my point is that all the good players know how to deal with Moltres by now, and if it was truly a Pokemon worthy of suspect status, methinks that that fact would have been widely recognized by now.

 

[Heysup]

So Ambipom functions badly as a lead then? Good luck trying to argue that one.

I forgot to address ambipom, but I meant to say its 2HKOable from Ice Beam if it's forced to Taunt anyway.

I agree that d2m's argument is pretty irrelevant, but what is even more irrelevant IMO is MS trying to argue Taunt / Ice Beam mindgames in Froslass' favor. That shit goes both ways, and almost always serves to go against Froslass because it makes Froslass' main job (Spikes setup) more uncertain.

Agreed, but its definitely not on its way to become a real solid argument against Froslass' BL status. Generally speaking, against most leads / pokemon in general, Froslass can set up two layers of Spikes at WORST.

As for your Rhyperior in the sand argument, don't forget that Sand requires a specific strategy and set of Pokemon to work well, especially in UU. And if you were arguing for Rhyperior having suspect-worthy power under Sand (though I don't think you are, and you shouldn't IMO) then that says more about Hippopotas being Suspect worthy rather than Rhyperior.

I wasn't really arguing that its broken or even close, I was just saying that it was a definite threat, not to be taken lightly just cause of its similarity in BST with Rhydon (Solid Rock is a huge deal).

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Agreed, but its definitely not on its way to become a real solid argument against Froslass' BL status. Generally speaking, against most leads / pokemon in general, Froslass can set up two layers of Spikes at WORST.

Okay I can see what you're saying, but I do wish you could approach the debate with more of an open mind. I was part of the Froslass = BL opinion back then too, but I'm definitely willing to give her a second chance to see if I made a mistake before, or if circumstances have changed to nerf it somewhat.

And like I said before, I never actually rated Froslass much as a lead. Apart from the obvious Ambipom and others, I used to relish the predictable nature of these overabused leads with creative and interesting anti-leads of my own. I remember fondly of using an anti-lead Guts Hariyama that one way or the other could give me the upper hand against pretty much every common lead going, as well as a mixed Sash Cloyster (yet another awesome and always criminally undervalued anti-lead, that would probably be even better now with Rock Blast). Main point though is that lead suicide Spikes were rarely if ever a big deal, particularly as Foresight Hitmontop was always an option. In fact I used to laugh at and pity anyone who wanted to waste Froslass like that, but that was just me apparently.

 

[d2m]

At d2m:
Your arguments were almost ALL irrelevant, except for one which proves my point further.

Electrode is the only Pokemon you listed that has a niche in the lead slot of a team. All of the other Pokemon you listed DON'T function well as leads. The "overall (all of the reasons it was banned add up to this)" reason Froslass was suspected and banned was because it forced you to use a Scarfed Sleeper or Crobat to stop spikes from getting up first turn. This fulfilled the support characteristic in every way, because either it fills the support characteristic from setting up Spikes, or it fills it by forcing you to use a Scarf Sleep move first turn, which is easily avoidable with Chansey everywhere, meaning it could just set up spikes later while you have no chance of doing anything at all.

On top of this, it can spin block for itself so Donphan being able to spin is a pretty argument, especially when it gets Rocked by Ice Beam. Otherwise it has to come in after spikes are set up and take a ton of damage while trying to spin...Good Luck with that. That's the sprinkles on the icing I guess, considering I already said Snow Cloak was the icing :)

1: Espeon, Swellow, Alakazam, Electrode, and Ambipom all make good leads. I have personally used over half of them on teams with great success.

2: If it's setting up spikes against near any other lead, that other lead will kill it, sure you're getting 2 layers, then Donphan spins them away. He easily OHKO's Froslass with Stone Edge or Assurance on the switch in if she tries to come back in and by then her sash is ruined. I'd also argue that if the point is "OMFG SHE ALWAYS GETS 1 SET OF SPIKES!!one1" then a sashed Roserade with Sleep Powder + Spikes is even worse, yet NO ONE was arguing for her to be banned, least of all you.

3: Snow Cloak requires Snover, which as everyone and their mom has pointed out is a bad idea (but I still use him anyway for shiz sometimes). If you're using her as a lead, it's impossible for hail to already be up unless she uses it instead of Taunt/Spikes.

4: The largest point I'm trying to make is this: getting up 1 layer of spikes regardless does NOT a BL pokemon make, you're hyper-exaggerating and I've utterly defeated that limited argument. If you want to bring up other BL characteristics we can talk about those, but calling my arguments "irrelevant" because they pertain to YOURS rather than ALL POSSIBLE arguments involving Froslass is asinine.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'd also argue that if the point is "OMFG SHE ALWAYS GETS 1 SET OF SPIKES!!one1" then a sashed Roserade with Sleep Powder + Spikes is even worse, yet NO ONE was arguing for her to be banned, least of all you.

Lol. Seriously d2m, most of your arguments have good intentions, but you're consistently discrediting yourself by continuously displaying your flawed knowledge of the metagame. That is all I will say.

 

[d2m]

Lol. Seriously d2m, most of your arguments have good intentions, but you're consistently discrediting yourself by continuously displaying your flawed knowledge of the metagame. That is all I will say.

How so? I'll fully admit I wasn't around when Froslass was banned, but from what I've seen and from what I can tell, there is no reason not to retest her with the metagame shifts and HGSS coming out.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

How so? I'll fully admit I wasn't around when Froslass was banned, but from what I've seen and from what I can tell, there is no reason not to retest her with the metagame shifts and HGSS coming out.

Okay, two words: illegal movesets.

And I'm with you on retesting Froslass, isn't that obvious by now?

 

[Thund91]

How so? I'll fully admit I wasn't around when Froslass was banned, but from what I've seen and from what I can tell, there is no reason not to retest her with the metagame shifts and HGSS coming out.

Sleep Powder + Spikes is illegal on Roserade. Otherwise people would've totally abused it. =/

 

[Heysup]

Retesting for all suspects eventually would be fine, but too be quite honest, Froslass is probably the last we should test. Froslass is just a flat out stupid concept on top of being broken. I know this isn't an actual argument, but WHY would we test this Pokemon again when we can test Pokemon who's function isn't 'Put up spikes fast then kills self or the opponent while spinblocking if they try to RS and Taunting if they try to set up'. That concept is flat out BS and I'm sure most of you agree. It kills the metagame.

Keep in mind this is on top of Froslass actually being BROKEN. To keep this sort of on topic, I'm also going to bring up the fact that the metagame game changes made Froslass BETTER. Having Donphan as the most common spinner = great news for Froslass. Crobat being removed = great news for Froslass. Roserade being removed = great news for Froslass. Nothing that has hindered its ability to get spikes up ridiculously easy and such.

 

[Thund91]

How does Roserade threaten Froslass at all?

 

[Heysup]

How does Roserade threaten Froslass at all?

You know, that whole Sleep status thing preventing a Pokemon from attacking....

If you were around for when Froslass was around, you were basically limited to these 3 leads: Froslass, Crobat, Scarf Sleeper (Roserade was the best choice). No Ambipom because of Crobat, so I guess that's one thing that has helped Froslass since it was banned...but Crobat is also gone so it evens right back out.

 

[Thund91]

You know, that whole Sleep status thing preventing a Pokemon from attacking....

If you were around for when Froslass was around, you were basically limited to these 3 leads: Froslass, Crobat, Scarf Sleeper (Roserade was the best choice). No Ambipom because of Crobat, so I guess that's one thing that has helped Froslass since it was banned...but Crobat is also gone so it evens right back out.

Um, I was playing even before the "big 6" got banned.

And there's, you know, the whole Taunt thing preventing a pokemon from using a status move.

 

[itsbigfoot]

^ that's why he said choiced sleeper

scarfs > taunt

 

[Thund91]

Ahh yeah I missed that, my bad. Even then, if pretty much every lead Roserade was scarfed then it would be so easy to abuse that and go to a pokemon that is immune to it. It's not like Froslass is that hard to switch in with 2 immunities and an Ice Beam resist.

 

[zorbees]

I don't see why you would say "Ambipom can't lead because of Crobat" when you can turn around and say "Froslass can't lead because of Ambipom."

 

[MagicMaster87]

If you were around for when Froslass was around, you were basically limited to these 3 leads: Froslass, Crobat, Scarf Sleeper (Roserade was the best choice). No Ambipom because of Crobat, so I guess that's one thing that has helped Froslass since it was banned...but Crobat is also gone so it evens right back out.

However, we also have a lot more Rapid Spinning going on now than back then, which means Froslass' use as a suicide lead (which is what she mainly was when not on a Hail team) is a lot less potent if she'll only be putting up Spikes once, maybe twice if she's lucky.

 

[Heysup]

Ahh yeah I missed that, my bad. Even then, if pretty much every lead Roserade was scarfed then it would be so easy to abuse that and go to a pokemon that is immune to it. It's not like Froslass is that hard to switch in with 2 immunities and an Ice Beam resist.

I don't really follow this statement exactly. Are you trying to support my point now? It seems like your saying 'Froslass is good and easy to switch in and Scarf Sleepers are easy to abuse'. Which is of my points word for word. People were forced to use Pokemon like Scarfed Roserade (they used it over Venusaur because it could actually sweep with a scarf later) in order to stop Spikes.

I don't see why you would say "Ambipom can't lead because of Crobat" when you can turn around and say "Froslass can't lead because of Ambipom."

If you're directing this at me then let me explain this highly complex situation. I said "Ambipom wasn't a good lead because of Crobat", and then I said (since Crobat is now banned) "Ambipom can Taunt Froslass, and now it can actually be used without fear of facing Crobat, but Crobat being gone balances that out."

However, we also have a lot more Rapid Spinning going on now than back then, which means Froslass' use as a suicide lead (which is what she mainly was when not on a Hail team) is a lot less potent if she'll only be putting up Spikes once, maybe twice if she's lucky.

But this Rapid Spinner is weak to Froslass' STAB Ice Beam. This means Froslass can block its Rapid Spin AND KO it with Ice Beam. Froslass doesn't automatically die when its a lead first turn, in fact, most good Froslass users don't sacrifice it until the time is right. It's still a suicide lead, but that doesn't mean it just suicides right away. Not to mention Donphan still has a ton of trouble spinning with NP Missy around. It isn't like Spike-based teams will be hit by Rapid Spin with three awesome Ghosts in the metagame.

 

[zorbees]

That isn't what I meant Heysup. What I meant was, how can you call Ambipom a bad lead, but call Froslass a good lead, when they both lose to other common leads (Ambipom to Crobat and Froslass to Ambipom)? I'm sure there was a reason that Ambipom was the 2nd and 3rd most common lead in January and February respectively, other than experimentation.

 

[Thund91]

I think you're overestimating Spikes just a little bit.

 

[MagicMaster87]

But this Rapid Spinner is weak to Froslass' STAB Ice Beam. This means Froslass can block its Rapid Spin AND KO it with Ice Beam. Froslass doesn't automatically die when its a lead first turn, in fact, most good Froslass users don't sacrifice it until the time is right. It's still a suicide lead, but that doesn't mean it just suicides right away. Not to mention Donphan still has a ton of trouble spinning with NP Missy around. It isn't like Spike-based teams will be hit by Rapid Spin with three awesome Ghosts in the metagame.

Donphan may be one of the most common spinners, but it's not the only one. Also, just like with Mismagius and the others, if the Donphan user predicts the switch-in, an Assurance or Earthquake (in the case of Froslass) will deal massive damage to Froslass, and it's likely to KO since Froslass will rarely set up multiple layers of Spikes unscathed. Hitmontop is also quite popular, and has decent special bulk to take Ice Beams. Blastoise, Kabutops, and Cloyster all learn Rapid Spin as well as resisting Ice Beam (Cloyster 4x resists), and the prior two have access to priority to avoid being finished off by Destiny Bond.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

You know, that whole Sleep status thing preventing a Pokemon from attacking....

Sure, but then you could say that Scarfed sleep is much riskier in this metagame now because of Dugtrio, if we want to continue down that road. Not to mention that Scarfed sleep is already risky enough as it is. Just don't try turning that into another instance where Froslass has potentially improved, because that is completely missing the point.

If you were around for when Froslass was around, you were basically limited to these 3 leads: Froslass, Crobat, Scarf Sleeper (Roserade was the best choice). No Ambipom because of Crobat, so I guess that's one thing that has helped Froslass since it was banned...but Crobat is also gone so it evens right back out.

Total bullshit. Ambipom was still a good lead even back then, and matching up badly against Crobat turn one did not mean instant loss, or even necessarily a disadvantage. I used an Ambipom lead back then for a good while and it was very useful because its utility against most other leads (especially Froslass) far outweighed its disadvantage against Crobat leads, which could be comfortably played around. I often just used Ambipom as a lure for an attack that Ampharos could switch into. Now obviously not everybody did that, but as zorbees mentioned, the statistics show that Ambipom was very high up in the lead stakes for much of the time that Crobat was around, so people must have been happy to keep on using it for the purpose of winning matches.

There's also the fact that me and many others had lots of success with numerous other leads in that period. I frequented the top 10 on the ladder for months using a variety of different leads, Hariyama and Cloyster just being two of them, so no I'm not having this blatant lie of yours that you were restricted to just three lead setups in order to be competitive. It seems to me that you're just twisting the facts to suit your argument, then simply repeating your argument over and over again whilst ignoring everyone else's refutations. That's childish of you tbh, though it isn't the first time.

 

[A.P.]

Lol, Lemmiwinks, no need to be modest. We all know you were #1 for a long time.

I myself used a variety of leads at that time, and never even touched Crobat or Froslass. Things like Ambipom, Uxie, Spiritomb, and Feraligatr all worked fine.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

My point wasn't to boast, but to refute Heysup's claim that competitive players were all forced to use the same few leads. Ladder ranking isn't important, or even accurate as a measure of skill, but the subset of people that represent the leaderboard and what they use does give at least a fair indication of what works in the metagame and what doesn't.