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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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I was just listing stuff off the top of my head, but the point is many other physical attackers can smack her around. Ground-types in particular destroy her with their immunity to Thunder Wave, and Steelix and the Nidos can take Toxic as well.
Though most Hariyamas dont (or Shouldnt), pack Attack EVs, or Close Combat. The hardest hitting move it will carry is Cross Chop, but the Force-Palmers dont even 2HKO Chansey.
Standard Impish 252/252 Hariyama's Force Palm vs 252 Def/0 HP Bold Chansey:
276 Atk vs 119 Def & 641 HP (60 Base Power): 300 - 354 (46.80% - 55.23%)
" ", with Cross Chop:
276 Atk vs 119 Def & 641 HP (100 Base Power): 498 - 588 (77.69% - 91.73%)
Hariyama isnt exactly the strongest attacker due to the need of Defensive EVs to stop Blaziken/Whatever. Cross Chop doesnt even OHKO ^^. Chansey is harder to take down than most people think.
As for Hariyama, its main (and imo ONLY) selling point is its Ability to be the best Blaziken Counter in the game, as the only set that takes it out is the not-so-common Choice Specs set (which i wrote an analysis for ^^). As well as it is a good shuffler.
You won't see plenty of Hariyama with Crobat around, although I agree that it is one of the most powerful physical attackers.
Guts Hariyama is the best exploiter of Chansey I have ever used in UU, hands down. Toxic / T-Wave boosts its attack to sky-high levels whilst Seismic Toss does very little against its humongous HP stat. Even with Adamant and lots of Attack EVs, there are still enough EVs left to make it reasonably bulky on both sides, even able to take two STAB Psychics from most Uxie. I've actually been using it as a lead, with great success. Froslass will only ever get up one layer of Spikes against it, before dying to Payback + Bullet Punch, leaving Hariyama at full health. As for Crobat, I simply pair it up with Ampharos (seriously, that shit really works!).
I don't understand the appeal of it as a Blaziken counter though. Without the Fighting resistance you die to Choice Band and Swords Dance variants with Superpower. Sure you take Fire attacks well with Thick Fat, but that doesn't make it a good counter by any means.
I don't understand the appeal of it as a Blaziken counter though. Without the Fighting resistance you die to Choice Band and Swords Dance variants with Superpower. Sure you take Fire attacks well with Thick Fat, but that doesn't make it a good counter by any means.
Standard Hariyama is 80 HP / 176 Atk / 252 (insert defensive stat here), I don't know where you got "Hariyama shouldn't run attack EVs" from because it's simply not true. When you have base 144 HP, you really don't need all that much HP.
vs. 0/252 Calm
320 Atk vs 109 Def & 641 HP (60 Base Power): 378 - 446 (58.97% - 69.58%)
vs. 0/252 Bold
320 Atk vs 119 Def & 641 HP (60 Base Power): 348 - 410 (54.29% - 63.96%)
Anyway, this is kinda irrelevant for the most part, as Chansey's never going to stay in on Hariyama anyway.
vs. 0/252 Calm
320 Atk vs 109 Def & 641 HP (60 Base Power): 378 - 446 (58.97% - 69.58%)
vs. 0/252 Bold
320 Atk vs 119 Def & 641 HP (60 Base Power): 348 - 410 (54.29% - 63.96%)
Anyway, this is kinda irrelevant for the most part, as Chansey's never going to stay in on Hariyama anyway.
For the record Hariyama does way more than "counter Specs Blaziken". He checks all versions of Blaziken, counters Rampardos, counters Arcanine, serves as a stall team answer to Clefable and Registeel, beats SD Pinsir, and a ton of other random shit thanks to Thick Fat, Fighitng typing, and great defenses. Hariyama has never been dead weight for me in any battle.
How does he beat stall? Sure, he can switch in on Steelix/Registeel or Regice or Chansey, but he is still walled by Spiritomb and Weezing, and fliers if it lacks Stone Edge.
Oh, and HeYsUp said that Hariyama countered every version of Blaziken except Specs Blaziken, not the other way around.
I've also never understood why it's considered such a great Blaziken counter. Choice Banded Superpower does a minimum of 67%, then 44% at -1. Swords Dance Life Orb Superpower OHKOs. Specs Focus Blast does a minimum of 96%. I guess it can check the Agility or Scarfed sets, but "checking" the Agility set means it's taking a minimum of 42% from Fire Blast, and 48% from Superpower.
Oh, and HeYsUp said that Hariyama countered every version of Blaziken except Specs Blaziken, not the other way around.
I've also never understood why it's considered such a great Blaziken counter. Choice Banded Superpower does a minimum of 67%, then 44% at -1. Swords Dance Life Orb Superpower OHKOs. Specs Focus Blast does a minimum of 96%. I guess it can check the Agility or Scarfed sets, but "checking" the Agility set means it's taking a minimum of 42% from Fire Blast, and 48% from Superpower.
He meant that Hariyama is usefull at a stall team, not against one.
But just because I use Sub Bulk Up CC Ice Punch Hariyama I'll tell you can sub on Spiritomb as Dark Pulse 3HKO's the sub and easily set up. Weezing Thunderbolt/Sludge Bomb 2HKO's your sub so you can also set up (no one uses Haze honestly so don't even fucking mention it).
Honestly, Hariyama offensive potential is so underrated/overlooked it's not even funny.
What if the Hariyama carried Thick Fat, would it then act as a couter? Renember, Flare Blitz = Blaziken's death because of Haryiama's high HP.
Also, Hariyama's attack is very high, so it's unlikely that Blaziken would survive the oncoming move, so it would have to 1HKO.
I'm curious what you all think of Regigigas. When I first started using it a few weeks ago, people were like "oh Regigigas, this should be interesting". Lately I've been getting more and more comments like "omfg Regigigas you're such a (BAN ME PLEASE), any noob can use him fuck you." Just wondering if anyone would like say something here about him.
So far I've managed to get to 6 on the leaderboard (Mawile) with a team that uses him in a prominent role, so if you say he sucks, I beg to differ. However... do you all think he's cheap?
So far I've managed to get to 6 on the leaderboard (Mawile) with a team that uses him in a prominent role, so if you say he sucks, I beg to differ. However... do you all think he's cheap?
I would like to say that Regiggiggas is an awsome pokemon that people should be more prepared for, just because people don't use him commonly doesn't mean they should call you a n00b. In fact, I was planning to run a team with him, but never got around to it.
It is kind of to far in advance to determine if he's "cheap" as he hasn't had very much effect on the enviroment yet. But if Staraptor and Gallade go, I think we may come to realize his full potential.
It is kind of to far in advance to determine if he's "cheap" as he hasn't had very much effect on the enviroment yet. But if Staraptor and Gallade go, I think we may come to realize his full potential.
Speaking of which, has anything happened with the Suspect testing yet? I haven't done any battling on the UU ladder as of late (due to lousy computer).
You did not look at all the options.
1. Confuse Ray - Obvious, you only want them hitting you 50% of the time. Anything that tries to setup is totally ruined in this manner.
2. Poison or Paralyisis from another pokemon - Paralyisis further lowers the chance of them hitting you, Poison make sit so they have to swtich.
3. Drain Punch - The biggie. Nobody runs Regigiggas with this yet as far as I know, but it provides you with HP. And when you start sweeping, the slight damage you get from their revenge killers can be gained back.
4. Perfect Coverage - Normal, Fighting, Fire. Enough said.
5. High defenses and HP - really, you are not bringing this thing down any time soon.
6. Stomp - Flinch chance, you lose the power of Return in exchange for survivablibity. Regigiggas will still outspeed some things, even with Slow Start. And once Slow Start ends, watch out.
7. Substitute - I would not really run it, but it could stop you from getting poisoned
8. Regigiggas looks cool - Can't deny the advantage in that.
I personally don't see the merits of force palm > Brick Break on Hariyama. Having a screen breaker around can be useful, and the extra 15 base power does not hurt.
I've been using Regigagas with DS Uxie very well. People forget the times ticking and just let Regigagas get his act together. Screens do make it 10 times easier for those 5 turns to get by. I run a jolly 252atk 252 sp boltbeam punch, frustration and eq set. nothing special, but has been destructive.
I personally use Brick Break on my stall team as paralysis is pretty useless there, but Force Palm is in general better as status > screen breaking.
Regigigas @ leftovers
252 HP / 252 Atk Adamant
Frustration
Earthquake
Thunder Wave
Substitute
I usually try to give it a screen from Uxie, two if possible. With the proper screen, very few things can break the sub in one hit. I use t-wave or sub depending what I think the enemy will do. From there it's usually easy to stall a few turns to get rolling. The change in speed and power can often leave you with a sub after getting your first kill. Floating/Flying ghosts, Steelix (with roar), and curses all bork this set, though.
It can open up a hole in the early game if the opponent lacks proper counters, or clean up the late game when your opponent has fewer hard hitting attacks to sacrifice to it. It can also act as a "get out of sweep free" card. With it's bulk, very few things will 2HKO it, so frail sweepers can be t-waved or (in Raikou's case) damaged to the point of a priority revenge kill.
The best setup fodder I've seen for it are Claydol, Spiritomb, Slowbro, and Slowking, in that order, as Gigas can get the sub up first against the status, then paralyze, stall, and usually win.
I also used it with DS Uxie, a mixed sweeper build with Substitute, I think it was Return/Sub/Earth Power/Thunderbolt. His "other options" are decent like EQ, Focus Punch, and elemental punches. It could 2HKO Steelix with Earth Power and usually got its act together for some fun with Returns. But I think there are definitely better options out there, for any set you choose. If only he had like six moveslots, for confuse ray/thunderwave/sub and some attacks, then he would be awesome.
I've always felt kind of annoyed with GF that not only is Force Palm 20 points weaker than Discharge, but they had the nerve to not give it to ANY technician pokemon. >____> Force Palm Hitmontop would have been rad. Drain Punch would have been even cooler. How the hell did Vileplume and Blissey get Drain Punch when Scizor and Hitmontop didn't!?
Meh, I just can't see myself sacrificing 15 base points AND screen breaking just for a 30% paralysis. Also, 120 base attack stat is great, but it doesn't hit all THAT hard when you're not usually running LO or CB. After running BB Hariyama, while I love him to death, I just can't imagine using it with an even weaker attack. :S
I think the metagame needs a wake-up slap in the form of CB Close Combat Hariyama >:D (no, I won't run Wake-Up Slap on it).
Without Staraptor and Crobat, look for Fighting types to surge in popularity. I doubt CB Close Combat Hariyama would be very good, as the defense drops are pretty horrible on a Pokemon whose bulk is counted as an asset, and with abysmal speed, though the SR resist might help him switch a few times. Instead, I think the subpuncher will find favor.
I think you miss the point that Hariyama has great defensive stats (statistically similar to Azumarril, another slow CB user), great resistances (or still decent resistances + status immunity with guts), and the fact that he's slow means that it will be harder for the opponent to take advantage of defense drops. It's not like you're planning to stay in with a CB user.
Furthermore, Stone Edge or Ice Punch or Payback give it terrific neutral coverage, enough so that it can fit things like Bullet Punch or Toxic into its set if it wanted to screw with opponents even more.
So maybe it's not a Scizor or TTar, or even Starapter or Gallade, but I've always thought a full-force offensive hariyama had a place in UU-- think I'll be giving it a shot.
Furthermore, Stone Edge or Ice Punch or Payback give it terrific neutral coverage, enough so that it can fit things like Bullet Punch or Toxic into its set if it wanted to screw with opponents even more.
So maybe it's not a Scizor or TTar, or even Starapter or Gallade, but I've always thought a full-force offensive hariyama had a place in UU-- think I'll be giving it a shot.
Thats the OU standard. The most common UU "wall" spread is Purely defensive, unless its some Gimmicky Guts CB set of some sort (which are just not good/outclassed by everything).
The reason for this, is that it NEEDS those EVs to counter Blaziken (All, minus Swords Dance, Brave Bird, and Specs Variants). Most people (EUM for example) have confirmed that they use that (max/max) Hariyama on their Stall teams to counter Blaziken, who runs rampant through most stall teams. Hariyama is still a decent tank, however it is just has terrible defensive typing compared to Registeel, Chansey, Steelix etc.
Its only/main selling point is its ability to counter Blaziken.
My point with Hariyama, is that its not the "best" way to take out a Chansey Quickly, as it can still outstall with wish, or Pass wish through a Bulky Hariyamas attack.
The CB variant is hesitant to Spam Superpower, because that leaves it vulnerable to many free Ghost Switch ins. If the user happens to take a Superpower, it can easily switch out to a fighting Immune.
I do agree, its not a good "counter" for the CB variant, or the Specs. But it does counter the more popular growing set, Mix LO, which is the only set that really tears apart Stall teams (well easier anyway).
Thats because its offensively outclassed by Hitmonlee/Gallade/Medicham/Anything, Due to its Poor speed.
Its Bulk is the main aspect, so Bulky Offensive sets arent uncommon. The issue is, that Hariyama has to take a Sweepers Slot, because it isnt Bulky enough to be a "Wall" while having offensive EVs.
Edit: This is not to say, CB/Offensive Hariyamas are bad, its just they need to take advantage of the Bulk. Attack EVs make it lose its versatility.
Azumaril is a bad Comparison for many reasons. Firstly, Azumaril has a STAB priority attack, to make up for the speed. Secondly, Azumarill has MUCH better defensive typing. As well, Azumaril has a quite a bit higher attack stat.
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