As much as you may think Ditto is unviable and is nothing to be scared of, it's like a magic preventer of your opponent setting up. And if they do, then you just sweep with their sweeper because yours has a scarf. Ditto is not so useful as a Pokemon to play, but instead as a thing in the back that people are to be fearful of.Okay aside from the obvious need to unrank Mega Banette and Deoxys-N, is there any actual good reason why Espeon, Xatu and Ditto are ranked, or at the very least why are they as high as the B ranks? Magic Bouncing is outclassed by Sableye-M and Espeon/Xatu can't even do anything aside from that because their offensive and defensive presence is literal shit. Ditto is incredibly predictable and easy to play around; no competent player is fearing this thing.
The same could be said of anything that prevents you from 6-0ing a team. All you stated was that Ditto is another target to remove before your set-up sweeper can... well, set-up. In OU, you can't just take your D-Dance/Roost/Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw Mega Charizard X and start sweeping straight away. You have to remove threats such as Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Altaria etc. before even thinking of doing it. And that's the same principle with Ditto. You remove it before you can set-up - that is not a special quality.As much as you may think Ditto is unviable and is nothing to be scared of, it's like a magic preventer of your opponent setting up. And if they do, then you just sweep with they're sweeper because yours has a scarf. Ditto is not so useful as a Pokemon to play, but instead as a thing in the back that people are to be fearful of.
I think Ditto is used in SwagPlay Teams to sweep with the boost of the opposing mon's Swagger Boost. At least it was that way before Swagger was banned in OU, people were running SwagPlay + Ditto Teams.The same could be said of anything that prevents you from 6-0ing a team. All you stated was that Ditto is another target to remove before your set-up sweeper can... well, set-up. In OU, you can't just take your D-Dance/Roost/Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw Mega Charizard X and start sweeping straight away. You have to remove threats such as Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Altaria etc. before even thinking of doing it. And that's the same principle with Ditto. You remove it before you can set-up - that is not a special quality.
man, i am just finding these baaaad arguments late-nightThe same could be said of anything that prevents you from 6-0ing a team. All you stated was that Ditto is another target to remove before your set-up sweeper can... well, set-up. In OU, you can't just take your D-Dance/Roost/Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw Mega Charizard X and start sweeping straight away. You have to remove threats such as Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Altaria etc. before even thinking of doing it. And that's the same principle with Ditto. You remove it before you can set-up - that is not a special quality.
Uh, dude.... By S-Tier, I think they only mean Arceus-Normal itself. Most of the Arceus formes are shitty and unviable, with the exception of the more prominent ones like Fairyceus, Darkceus and Ghostceus. By your same logic, you are also implying that normal Groudon is as good as Primal (which it definitely isn't.)I don't think Primal Groudon is worth of S+ tier, while it is very good, it hasn't the same power and variety of roles as Arceus. Since AG allows to use as much Arceus formes as you want, using a support Arceus forme has no opportunity cost. Primal Groudon support set is inferior to an Arceus one, because Arceus has Will-O-Wisp, Magic Coat, Recover, Defog, Perish Song, Extreme Speed...
Lack of recovery hurts it a lot. So Primal Groudon better suit for offensive use. But the fact it is slow and can't hold an item makes it easy setup for Darkrai. It wants Swords Dance and Rock Polish to sweep effectively, but getting these two boost is easier said than done.
The reason it's nothing special is because in a realistic scenario, that's all it does. Let's take our Charx example - you're no more scared of it than say Slowbro. If you come up against it it's still a target to take out before you can sweep. In fact no; that that back - you're less scared of it than Slowbro because against a competent player, sitting there and dissuading a sweep is literally all it does. I just can't imagine a scenario where a competent player walks right into a scarf ditto trap and gets into a bad position from it.man, i am just finding these baaaad arguments late-night
where to begin : those mons are good in part because they must be removed for zard to sweep, because that means they stop it from sweeping. if you didn't have any of them, then the opponent would simply set up and win. since you do, they have to play a more complex game and remove those, which leaves you free to try and remove their stops to your sweeper, set up your own sweeper, or generally wear down their team. in short, can we agree that stopping a sweeper from setting up (and thus sweeping) is a good quality?
ditto possesses this quality.
arguably, it possesses it more than any other Pokemon, which is arguably its niche and what makes it special. i don't know how well that translates into AG and its efficacy at this task is definitely something you can argue about, but don't dismiss this as 'nothing special' lol
the only sense in which he mentioned that ditto countersweeps is in the sense of a mechanism of preventing you from sweeping; i.e. that no competent player walks into a scarf ditto trap, because they will be in a bad position from it.The reason it's nothing special is because in a realistic scenario, that's all it does. Let's take our Charx example - you're no more scared of it than say Slowbro. If you come up against it it's still a target to take out before you can sweep. In fact no; that that back - you're less scared of it than Slowbro because against a competent player, sitting there and dissuading a sweep is literally all it does. I just can't imagine a scenario where a competent player walks right into a scarf ditto trap and gets into a bad position from it.
Except the problem is you're taking up a teamslot for something that's unreliable and has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of your team. In addition as it only ever carries scarf and it copies the opponent's moveset, the opponent knows everything it can do and hence it is very easy to play around, and as it copies the opponent it's very unreliable and in many matches may not ever come into play; becoming a redundant team member hence making it's function as a check difficult to justify. I've just never seen a good ditto in practise and outside the lower ladder and you'd need some good replay to show it off; but there's a reason other tiers have dropped it off their VR.the only sense in which he mentioned that ditto countersweeps is in the sense of a mechanism of preventing you from sweeping; i.e. that no competent player walks into a scarf ditto trap, because they will be in a bad position from it.
i agree that ditto countersweeping is a bad argument you will see noobs make, but you should look more carefully for its actual presence; he only mentioned it to make it clear that Ditto prevents setup via heavy punishing of it
in a realistic scenario, yes, that is all it does (or not, but more on that in a mo'). But it does it for EVERY Pokemon, whereas slowbro, for example, is unable or hard-pressed to stop SD Weavile, SD bisharp, DD M-gyarados, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Dragon Dance Crunch Mega Tyranitar, Tail Glow Rain Dance Manaphy, Offensive Swords Dance Scizor, Refresh Dragon Dance Mega Altaria, Specially offensive Agility Mega Altaria, Calm Mind Landorus-I, Calm Mind Mega Diancie, Calm Mind Latios, Calm Mind Mega Gardevoir, Nasty Plot Celebi, Serperior, Quiver Dance Volcarona, SD Mega Pinsir, Belly Drum Chesnaught, SD Megachomp in Sand, Swords Dance Crawdaunt, Work Up Mega Pidgeot, Calm Mind Raikou...think that's all of them?
Also, it can be a scarf mega rayquaza, scarf xerneas, scarf primal groudon, all of which would be fairly potent if they could wield scarves (as proof, xerneas can and it's fairly potent).
so in short, you can't say that it doesn't do anything special, unless you can name other things that check more, threats that ditto can't stop, etc, what we would call an actual argument. you might win that argument, i bet Klefki and GeoXern are good examples of the former and latter, but you have to actually make that argument, yeah?
let me illustrate what has happened so far, to all those reading:Except the problem is you're taking up a teamslot for something that's unreliable and has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of your team. In addition as it only ever carries scarf and it copies the opponent's moveset, the opponent knows everything it can do and hence it is very easy to play around, and as it copies the opponent it's very unreliable and in many matches may not ever come into play; becoming a redundant team member hence making it's function as a check difficult to justify. I've just never seen a good ditto in practise and outside the lower ladder and you'd need some good replay to show it off; but there's a reason other tiers have dropped it off their VR.
(bold for emphasis)tehy said:so in short, you can't say that it doesn't do anything special, unless you can name other things that check more, threats that ditto can't stop, etc, what we would call an actual argument. you might win that argument, i bet Klefki and GeoXern are good examples of the former and latter, but you have to actually make that argument, yeah?
Look, if you're going to disagree with me I really don't care at all; but would it be alright if you could actually tell me why I'm wrong instead of assuming I'm incredibly salty off of one word and then making an entire post which is incredibly aggressive for no apparent reason? I'm really tired of seeing this sort of attitude; at least fleggumfl had the maturity to actually refute my post instead of... whatever this is supposed to be. Maybe I'm being horribly wrong about ditto but there was really no need for this.let me illustrate what has happened so far, to all those reading:
Kurona : dumb argument
Me : that's a dumb argument, and you need to actually make an argument for ditto's viability
Kurona : oh yeah???!!! well you're wrong, because ditto is unviable for x y and z reasons! GOT YOU HAHA
Me : if by 'i got you' you mean 'you did exactly what I said' then sure...?
(bold for emphasis)
i mean, maybe you aren't doing EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO as an aggressive response to my argument...but if you aren't, why are you being so aggressive? starting your sentence off with except? any post that does that is typically angry / salty, and I've only used it when I am, in fact, pissed as hell.
in short feel free to keep discussing how good ditto is at its niche, but don't try to dismiss its niche with some terrible logic
as for spin da (pig), if Kurona uses OU examples i'll have to OU-refute them, same goes for any tier, but i take your point
do you really not get itLook, if you're going to disagree with me I really don't care at all; but would it be alright if you could actually tell me why I'm wrong
i assumed you were salty or angry. notice that i didn't say the word incredibly, so now you're exaggerating. why would you be doing that? well perhaps to set up a strawman, or to misrepresent me? more on this in a momentkurona said:instead of assuming I'm incredibly salty off of one word
haha there it iskurona said:and then making an entire post which is incredibly aggressive for no apparent reason?
yes, fleggumfl made a counter-argument as it relates to viability, which is perfectly fine. i'm not interested in that. what I am interested in is shitty logic, which is why I made my original post, and the subsequent post when you failed to understand this.kurona said:I'm really tired of seeing this sort of attitude; at least fleggumfl had the maturity to actually refute my post instead of... whatever this is supposed to be. Maybe I'm being horribly wrong about ditto but there was really no need for this.
It's more than that. I would call it and Mega Gengar the best partners to Swagger Klefki in the game. Between the two of them, there is very little that can stop SwagPlay teams.I think Ditto is used in SwagPlay Teams to sweep with the boost of the opposing mon's Swagger Boost. At least it was that way before Swagger was banned in OU, people were running SwagPlay + Ditto Teams.
I didn't really have time to respond to this, I was going to let others dispute it but it didn't do much good so I'll try and make a productive counter-argument. Adding to fleggumfl's excellent argument, some Pokemon are just too bulky to kill without setting up. E.g. Bulky Arceus, Lugia whereas others require setting up to actually function properly, e.g. Serperior (bad example).The same could be said of anything that prevents you from 6-0ing a team. All you stated was that Ditto is another target to remove before your set-up sweeper can... well, set-up. In OU, you can't just take your D-Dance/Roost/Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw Mega Charizard X and start sweeping straight away. You have to remove threats such as Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Altaria etc. before even thinking of doing it. And that's the same principle with Ditto. You remove it before you can set-up - that is not a special quality.
Yes, again your post was long ago, but since no one pointed out anything, I'll do it. (I really have a tendency to do this lol)I agree that Mega-Ray may not be the perfect mon, but I feel uncomfortable placing it along with Xerneas, P-Don and others like that
I understand the whole Arceus argument, but I personally feel that Mega-Ray has an easier way setting up due to the fact that it can hold Lum, and has other powerful moves such as DA besides non-stab Espeed.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 214-253 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 211-250 (50.7 - 60%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I feel Klefki is too overcentralizing to be placed under S. Literally every team has to be prepared for it to not get sweeped. He does truly define the metagame. I could see S- though
The Latis are excellent wallbreakers with Soul Dew, and can provide team support with Defog and Healing Wish
Agree with everything else
I agree with everything said except the Reshiram. I use a team which features a heat rock Groudon, Sticky Web setting Shuckle and Choice Specs Blue Flare Reshiram. The way I have it set up Reshiram can OHKO EKiller. Although it's not the best strategy (see Terrakion for a much better one), it is actually very efficient if you can pull it off. It OHKOs nearly anything not made for bulk in the meta. IMO Reshiram deserves to be at its rank due to the necessity to build a team around to make viable, although still providing a very high SpA stat + STAB. IIRC It hits its fire special attacks at the highest power in the meta (tied with Primal Groudon).The main reason why Arceus-Normal is deserving its rank is its unpredictability because being able to run multiple ones in a team eliminates its "4-move syndrome" making it possible to fit into your team Sword Dance, Refresh, E-Speed, EQ, Overheat, Shadow Claw, Substitute, Recover for instants with just 2 Arceus already and also it can run a good selection of items like Lefties, Lum Berry or Life Orb.
Also your opponent has to keep track which move which Arceus-N used putting more pressure onto your opponent
While you can do that pretty much with Rayquaza as well, however, you can only evolte one and normal Rayquaza does not really work as well, does it?
Anyways, what are your thoughts on Articuno?
Sheer Cold seems nice, but is the Ground Immunity really that handy that you would use it over Kyogre/PrimalOgre who is faster and bulkier also does not rely on the OHKO-move to actually take down something? I think we don't need to even consider STAB Ice Type moves, since Sheer Cold limits switching anyways and that is already done by Kyogre (who already has better coverage including powerful non-OHKO Ice Type moves.
And the other 'mon I think should considered to go down a rank or maybe even unranked is Reshiram.
Damage output alone seems pointless and it is pretty much outclassed by pretty much any Fire Type and Kyurem-W who are faster, bulkier or hit at least as hart as Reshiram does. And while you can only run one Kyurem-W, why would anyone run more than one Reshiram/Kyurem-W anyways in this meta?
I regret posting that post, I understood that I was wrong, and I already updated the rankings accordinglyYes, again your post was long ago, but since no one pointed out anything, I'll do it. (I really have a tendency to do this lol)
1) He means Normalceus which can hold an item. If I'm right, Arceus holds Lum like 90% of the time, and the 10% of Arceus that don't probably belong to low-ladder players. (most other arceus formes are shit please don't lump them together with the good ones)
2) Admittedly, yes, Ray has some really nice resistances, but Arceus still has much better bulk and can setup more consistently, for one.
3) Yes, Ray hits harder than Arceus Normal. Transcendent God Champion already admitted that. Besides, Arceus-Normal hits hard enough in the long run and doesn't need to worry about scarfers and stuff.
4) Lugia beats both of them regardless of how hard it gets hit and can Roost on whatever comes in unless it phazes into something like Darkrai.
That's pretty much it, but I feel that Memento (on Latios) and maybe Dual Screens deserve a mention.
Agree and stuff, but Arceus-Fire is actually at D rank now in the Uber Viability rankings for being almost completely outclassed by P-don. Granted, it is marginally better due to the absence of Species Clause, but it still is outclassed in almost every other aspect.TBH, Reshiram is two or three times worse here than it is in ubers (where it is inviable). If that alone isn't enough reason to unrank it, it is outclassed by any viable Fire-type or special Dragon-type in the metagame due to either a: not creating mindgames on team preview like Arceus-Fire, not having useful STAB for its coverage unlike Kyurem-W (who also gets Fire-type coverage anyway as well as STAB Ice-type attacks) and just generally being outclassed in a roll by another Pokemon. Reshiram is never worth using on any serious team in AG, so it shouldn't be ranked.
Agreed. I was literally just listing its main niche over other Fire-types XD It is better here than in ubers tho :]Agree and stuff, but Arceus-Fire is actually at D rank now in the Uber Viability rankings for being almost completely outclassed by P-don. Granted, it is marginally better due to the absence of Species Clause, but it still is outclassed in almost every other aspect.