Xurkitree Discussion

[Pushinguplilacs]

The problem with running Scarf is that you miss out on Tail Glow, and Xurkitree would rather keep Tail Glow in order for it to have no switch-ins.

You run the big risk of being revenge killed by outspeeding pursuit trappers and dugtrio tho. This thing really seems like a switch in nuke with a voltswitch and switch out kinda thing

 

[Nokocchi]

I can see this thing being quite the griefer on random wifi battles when teamed up with a speed-passer like Scoliopede. Might try it myself at least once just to see how stupid the combo could be.

 

[Orga777]

Another broken Ultra Beast. This thing will last a bit longer than Pheromosa, but, don't expect this thing to last TOO much longer. Beast Boost is such a broken ability for these guys.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

Another broken Ultra Beast. This thing will last a bit longer than Pheromosa, but, don't expect this thing to last TOO much longer. Beast Boost is such a broken ability for these guys.

I feel like everyone wanting to throw this in ubers aren't taking into account that the meta is changing as a whole because we are in a new gen. You can't use XY/ Oras tier knowledge to place Pokémon that aren't functioning under that meta.

This thing seems scary and great on paper but so did stuff like pangoro and goodra. Give it time before ya yell ubers or ou even.

 

[Orga777]

I feel like everyone wanting to throw this in ubers aren't taking into account that the meta is changing as a whole because we are in a new gen. You can't use XY/ Oras tier knowledge to place Pokémon that aren't functioning under that meta.

This thing seems scary and great on paper but so did stuff like pangoro and goodra. Give it time before ya yell ubers or ou even.

See, Pangoro is slower, significantly weaker, and has a glaringly bad typing with the introduction of Fairies. Same deal with Goodra. It has nice SpD, but that is all it really has. THIS thing? Even with uninvested SpA it hits a disgusting 382. 252 SpA it goes all the way up to 445, and if Modest? Hits 489! Seriously, what switches in on this thing? Not a whole lot outside Chansey, even with its rather weak movepool. Add in the fact every time this thing kills something, its dumb ability will just continue to boost its SpA, and it will just sweep everything. Nice Volt-Turn core with this thing, and it comes in and finishes off the game late rather easily. Ultra Beasts like this alone will need to result in banning Baton Pass/Speed Boost as well.

Also, with how horrendously slow most Gen 7 mons are, I think it is pretty safe to assume that outside the Tapu's, UBs, some bulky mons like Toxapex, and a handful of speedy hitters like Salazzle, the meta isn't gonna change a whole lot.

 

[Valiant Scizor]

See, Pangoro is slower, significantly weaker, and has a glaringly bad typing with the introduction of Fairies. Same deal with Goodra. It has nice SpD, but that is all it really has. THIS thing? Even with uninvested SpA it hits a disgusting 382. 252 SpA it goes all the way up to 445, and if Modest? Hits 489! Seriously, what switches in on this thing? Not a whole lot outside Chansey, even with its rather weak movepool. Add in the fact every time this thing kills something, its dumb ability will just continue to boost its SpA, and it will just sweep everything. Nice Volt-Turn core with this thing, and it comes in and finishes off the game late rather easily.

Also, with how horrendously slow most Gen 7 mons are, I think it is pretty safe to assume that outside the Tapu's, UBs, some bulky mons like Toxapex, and a handful of speedy hitters like Salazzle, the meta isn't gonna change a whole lot.

I think that the Talonflame nerf alone will change the meta, but additionally there is Rain Sun and perhaps Hail to consider, as well as a myriad of things that COULD come down from Ubers (I suspect that most will remain, but who knows). I think the simple fact that there is less new 'Mons and more things geared towards doubles, supports the theory of having a relatively unchanged meta, but I think there will be ample shifts as things come down, and go up, to Ubers over the course of the first few months :)

 

[Orga777]

I think that the Talonflame nerf alone will change the meta, but additionally there is Rain Sun and perhaps Hail to consider, as well as a myriad of things that COULD come down from Ubers (I suspect that most will remain, but who knows). I think the simple fact that there is less new 'Mons and more things geared towards doubles, supports the theory of having a relatively unchanged meta, but I think there will be ample shifts as things come down, and go up, to Ubers over the course of the first few months :)

Oh, Talonflame being nerfed is HUGE for sure. Of course there will be meta shifts, however, it doesn't mean this thing isn't broken beyond belief in OU.

 

[Valiant Scizor]

Oh, Talonflame being nerfed is HUGE for sure. Of course there will be meta shifts, however, it doesn't mean this thing isn't broken beyond belief in OU.

I would be willing to wager that this thing will, initially, be worse than you make it out to be. And also that, if it becomes banned, it will be because the Meta slowed down and that it crowds out Stall or Defensive strats. I could definitely see it being banned, but I also forsee it being handled better than you forsee.

To explain further and not just give opinions without context, here are a couple scenarios. This will either run Scarf or TailGlow set, more likely (ignoring the likely less reliable, yet equally attractive, SubSalac set). Scarf sets are gonna be stopped by defensive 'Mons and some decent predicting. Sure, it will force some 50/50's with things like Lando and Gliscor, but if it loses the 50/50, then that is so much momentum lost, especially versus Lando. Hippo, Mega-Venu, some Tangrowth sets, and even things like Amoonguss and Tapu Koko aren't 2HKO's.

Talk Glow sets destroy slower teams, but will never have an opportunity to be used against offense because it always gets outsped and what team isn't running EQ, and/or multiple EQ users. If it manages to get itself a Tail Glow, or a Beast Boost, it should be easily revenged as long as, like stated above, one of the many things on the opposing team that runs EQ is alive.

I admit, I made a bit of a miscalculation when I started this post (I will explain below), and Xurkitree seems more thretening now due to it, but I think my point remains relevant still.

I thought that on Scarf sets, the Spd stat would surpass the SpAtk, therefore resulting in a Speed Boost, which would be useless on a Scarf Set becuase they would switch into a resist regardless. Getting a SpAtk boost is far, far better than getting a Spd Boost, so I submit to you there, that does seems scary. However, Amoonguss is still not even 3HKO by +1 T-Bolt, and ScarfTar takes just over half (bulkier/band sets obviously take less), which is something to think about, at least. On non-Scarf sets, Beast Boost will be a drop in the ocean after a Tail Glow, and still suffers from being revenged, and beaten by prediction (or luck), and faster 'Mons, so Beast Boost will be partially irrelevant.

TL;DR: Xurkitree has definitely come across as more threatening by the end of this post than when I started it. My miscalculation with regards to Scarf and Speed Boost definitely makes it a far scarier scarfer, but I think that it's movepool and mostly the fact that it's only STAB move is useless vs. Ground-types is holding it back ever so slightly. I think it is safe to assume that it will be a 'Mon who's effectiveness fluctuates with the Metagame. I tried to be as subjective as possible when judging this thing. I could turn out to be completely wrong, I can always admit to getting things wrong :P

PS: This thing reminds me somewhat of Mega-Mawile. A slow hitter that started out as an SD+Sucker Punch mon that was effective vs Offence, and as the Meta slowed, because a SubPunch user that crowded out stall. Mawile notably, however, had a much higher attack stat, and spammable STAB's the best typing, and priority though, which is this thing's drawbacks.

Also, some calc's that I ran into (Thundurus used as Xurkitree):

(Xurkitree hits almost identically to LO Thundy, for quick reference) (Calc's are based on ScarfXurkitree, before and after Beast Boosts)

Hide

• +1 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +1 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 544-644 (134.9 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
•252 SpA Thundurus Energy Ball vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-194 (44.8 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
• 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 184-218 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Thundurus Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 276-326 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 318-374 (106.3 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +1 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 226-266 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 176-208 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
• 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 266-314 (82.3 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 151-178 (44 - 51.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
• 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 133-157 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 296-352 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

(Modest LO)
• 252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 191-226 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm sure a lot of calc's are irrelevant, I just wanted to present a wide variety of things to give a clearer idea on this thing's damage.

 

[Orga777]

SNIP

See, that isn't the problem here, really. The problem is that it has Volt Switch AND a dumb as hell SpA stat. 50/50s are a part of the game. However, that didn't stop Hoopa-U from being broken beyond belief in standard OU. This thing can just volt-turn around and massacre whatever is left at the end of the game. Everyone mentions partners and combos for the opponent against this thing without ever accounting for THIS things potential partners that will easily abuse its sets. What do some of those guys even do when you can end up trapping them with Dutrio, with its nice and boosted ATK stat? Or mixing this with other wall-breakers like Lati? Or pivots like Rotom and Tangrowth that smack Hippo and Lando? Don't get me started on potential double electric Volt Switch Spam with Tapu Koko and its Electric Terrain boosts. This doesn't even use up a Mega slot.

It doesn't need to kill everything on its own. Not one pokemon outside Mega Ray can do that effectively. However, all of its brain dead utility will be a serious issue, and I don't see how it won't be.

 

[Valiant Scizor]

See, that isn't the problem here, really. The problem is that it has Volt Switch AND a dumb as hell SpA stat. 50/50s are a part of the game. However, that didn't stop Hoopa-U from being broken beyond belief, either, in standard OU. This thing can just volt-turn around and massacre whatever is left at the end of the game. Everyone mentions partners and combos for the opponent against this thing without ever accounting for THIS things potential partners that will easily abuse its sets. What do some of those guys even do when you can end up trapping them with Dutrio, with its nice and boosted ATK stat? Or mixing this with other wall-breakers like Lati? Or pivots like Rotom and Tangrowth that smack Hippo and Lando? Don't get me started on potential double electric Volt Switch Spam with Tapu Koko and its Electric Terrain boosts. This doesn't even use up a Mega slot.

It doesn't need to kill everything on its own. Not one pokemon outside Mega Ray can do that effectively. However, all of its brain dead utility will be a serious issue, and I don't see how it won't be.

Very fair. Solid points. I think that, like I said, there is a ton of potential for me to be wrong, I just don't see it being as effective (at least for the first couple months, where there will be faster 'Mons and HO littering the Metagame). Once the Meta settles (and potentially once Duggy gets looked at), I can see it being very scary, like you stated. The more I ponder it, the more I think it will be a very strong 'Mon in SuMo. However I also believe it is important to bring up the downsides to certain 'Mons, just to give a fair, whole idea of what it will look like :)

I will admit, I was sure that Scarf would prevent it from getting a SpAtk boost (maybe I was thinking Modest), and knowing that it can run Scarf and get SpAtk Moxie definitely worries me. I think it would be really interesting to see how it would fare if it's SpAtk dropped to a level where Scarf tipped it's speed over the edge, so you had to decide between Modest for Beast Boost but ScarfTar level speed, or Timid for higher speed but forgoing SpAtk boosts... Would've been interesting, but oh well :)

This was the very first thing I looked to when the Stats were revealed, and I am still very eager to see how this will perform vs the field :)

 

[MoonDunes]

Just drop in a full health Pyukumuku on this thing's Thunderbolt, boom hard counter, Xurkitree for PU

 

[SJCrew]

We have to analyze more than just the attacking stat. Kyurem-B is another parallel that I haven't seen mentioned yet. We were googly-eyed over its Attack stat before its release, but we soon discovered that it was lacking in some key areas both offensively and defensively. I can see this happening with Xurkitree as well. As it stands, there's no way it's killing something every turn it's in, a la Hoopa-U, because it's coverage isn't good enough and we have too many good Electric resists (Latios, Latias, Ferrothorn, Mega Venu, Amoonguss). This is a major problem for a wallbreaker with exceptionally bad defensive parameters (mostly that horrendous mono-Electric typing that offers no good resists).

I'd say the level of its potential hinges significantly on how slow the metagame becomes. Tail Glow is going to be a key factor in how good it can be.