VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2

[Celestavian]

I think that Sylveon should be moved down to A. In my experience using it, there are way too many faster threats that can OHKO it as well as sturdy Fairy resists that discourage bringing it to the match. Mega Kangaskhan with Double-Edge, Mega Salamence, Heatran, Aegislash, Mega Charizard, Entei, Ferrothorn, etc. are all common threats that Sylveon requires team support to get past, and while it is really powerful, especially with Specs, there are too many Pokemon in the meta right now that make me hesitate to pick Sylveon.

 

[Mishimono]

I think that Sylveon should be moved down to A. In my experience using it, there are way too many faster threats that can OHKO it as well as sturdy Fairy resists that discourage bringing it to the match. Mega Kangaskhan with Double-Edge, Mega Salamence, Heatran, Aegislash, Mega Charizard, Entei, Ferrothorn, etc. are all common threats that Sylveon requires team support to get past, and while it is really powerful, especially with Specs, there are too many Pokemon in the meta right now that make me hesitate to pick Sylveon.

ya agreed A+ is too high.

 

[Demantoid]

is vivilion really E rank? It is one of the fastest reliable sleep inducers and, unlike its counterparts, can have a mild offensive presence with hurricane. it has two great support moves in rage powder and powder. With the right support vivilion is a monster.

The problem with Vivillon is like you said it needs support. A support pokemon shouldn't need support from the team it's supporting.

The main problem is that almost every pokemon can 2hko Vivillon due to how frail it is. It is also weak to common spread moves which limits the effectiveness of Rage Powder. Most common pokemon also easily beat it.

 

[nightwolf]

With the right support vivilion is a monster.

And here lies the problem with it, if you have to build a team around the support pokemon so that it can do its job, something very wrong is going on with that team. As Demantoid said, its weak to a lot of common stuff and has poor defenses that make it hard to survive OHKOs or 2HKOs

 

[Pyritie]

Saying that a pokemon is bad because it needs support to do well is confusing. Pretty much every team has some form of support to make individual pokemon do well on that team.

Support pokemon's whole purpose is to support the other members if your team, and if you need to support a support pokemon then you have a problem. The best support pokemon don't need any help from the rest of their team at all, outside of basic things like intimidate and type synergy.

Breloom is a bit of a special case, since it isn't a complete support pokemon (like cresselia or amoonguss) but it isn't completely offensive either.

 

[nicholascookie]

Saying that a pokemon is bad because it needs support to do well is confusing. Pretty much every team has some form of support to make individual pokemon do well on that team. Breloom is frail, and can be 2hko'ed by most pokemon, and is often run with a focus sash. Does that stop people from using it? breloom is B+, despite the fact it has to be used carefully due to its frailness. Breloom has its niches, so does vivilion like i said. A 91% accuracy base 165 power move (after stab) in hurricane, boasting a decent sp attack stat of 90. it is the fastest reliable sleep inducer, and rage powder, bug buzz, powder and quiver dance are possible moves on it that provide vivilion many options in terms of utility and mild offence.

It may not be metagame breaking, but saying its totally outclassed and/or gimmicky in E rank is an understatement.

Are you kidding me

Breloom is not a support, there's Amoonguss who has literally the same type weaknesses

Look at the base stats, that'll explain why Vivillon's E. If you can't even survive an attack from even Purugly, you'll never be able to pull out your shining bag of Hurricane and Sleep tricks. 89 Speed is complete shit if you're not bulky.

Use your brains

 

[Mishimono]

Are you fucking kidding me

Breloom is not a support, there's Amoonguss who has literally the same type weaknesses

Look at the base stats fuck sake, that'll explain why Vivillon's E. If you can't even survive an attack from even Purugly, you'll never be able to pull out your shining bag of Hurricane and Sleep tricks. 89 Speed is complete shit if you're not bulky.

Use your brains god damn don't make yourself out to be such an idiot

Well I agree Vivilon is pretty bad you don't have to be so rude about it.

 

[Darkmalice]

In all honesty I could see Vivillon in D rank but no higher. Because it gets very accurate sleep and Tailwind, the latter if used effectively removes any Speed issues, but you have to pair Vivillon with a Fake Out user (Mega Kang) or take advantage of switches. It should belong wherever Jumpluff is as each have their pros and cons (e.g. Encore vs accurate Hurricane)

It's better than some of the other stuff in D rank like Mega Steelix and Musharna - what do these actually do?

 

[nightwolf]

Saying that a pokemon is bad because it needs support to do well is confusing. Pretty much every team has some form of support to make individual pokemon do well on that team.

That's the thing though, the support shouldn't need support to support the team.

A 91% accuracy base 165 power move (after stab) in hurricane, boasting a decent sp attack stat of 90. it is the fastest reliable sleep inducer, and rage powder, bug buzz, powder and quiver dance are possible moves on it that provide vivilion many options in terms of utility and mild offence.

It may not be metagame breaking, but saying its totally outclassed and/or gimmicky in E rank is an understatement.

Sorry to say this, but base 89 speed shouldn't be something to hang your hat on because it is so frail that it has to go almost all out defensive to survive much of anything and it very rarely can be in the lead position because it'll survive maybe one turn, if you're lucky.

Exhibit A is Landorus-T+M Kangaskhan;

252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vivillon: 164-196 (87.7 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vivillon: 60-72 (32 - 38.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO

Guaranteed turn one KO against one of the more common leads in doubles on battle spot doubles/VGC (Kang holds the one spot and Lando-T is listed as the 1st pokemon matched up with it)

Well I agree Vivilon is pretty bad you don't have to be so rude about it.

Don't feed the troll. He's not worth the energy, if he gets out of hand with it his insults and such, he'll get banned again and maybe learn his lesson to not be an asshole to people.

 

[tofucocoa]

I've taken down a few posts and edited a few to make them a little less obnoxious. Yeah, Vivillion is bad, but it doesn't warrant you unloading your swear word artillery on someone trying to promote discussion (however misguided that discussion is).

As for Vivillion... Can we discuss something else, please? What about Azumarill and the viability of Mega Gengar (and Dewgong)?

 

[Steven Stone]

LOL do we seriously want to discuss Dewgong's role in the metagame? Like, i'm pretty sure we already established Dewgong's role and viability.

To what concerns Mega Gengar, i have received some comments on how Perish Trapping is gimmicky and unviable, but i'm not exactly sure about this being truth. We'd look and test Perish Trap which is where Mega Gengar shines at.

What comes to Azumarill, a raise won't hurt the blue bunny. Now people realise that Azumarill CAN USE more sets than only Belly Drum, and the offensive pressure it exerts allows it to check multiple stuff at once, with a pretty decent bulk to back it up. Azumarill has recently showcased a lot of success in tournaments, but i'm not exactly sure if this is worth the raise, as i've never used Azumarill (successfully). What do you guys think?

 

[Yugi]

lucariojr can you give us an update?

As for azumarill,i think a rise isnt unreasonable it has certainly picked up popularity from the regs that wolfe got 1st place and aaron 8ed the san jose(i think its NorCal) and it exerts pressure with the most popular mega in kangaskhan and has just 2 mons as a counter in Thundurus(which is a check only)Rotom-W or the unconventional Rotom C.It also has awesome synergy with Amoonguss the counter to Rotom-W.This pokemon also pairs well with heatran beating the likes of Lando(which if non-intimidated/if it has a BD up) and it also is a check to the special fairies in the metagame.I think for right now it has a pretty good matchup against the meta and BD isnt the only set it can also effectively run Band with the support of Whimsicott and Tailwind.It also goes well with the double-genies with the ability to beat pert/gastrodon.It has a great synergy with PUP kanga which is a definite threat to the metagame,but uncommon due to All-Out-Attacker Kangaskhan.It also has a good synergy with Cresselia because it beats the likes of Hydreigon or a band Knock off onto the faster aegis.

 

[tofucocoa]

and yes i have moved sylveon down to A rank pls dont remind me

OK, how about this for a discussion:
Venusaur-M: A- to B+ :: Venusaur gets dunked by Kang, Heatran, Charizard, Salamence, and doesn't care for Gardevoir, Cresselia, and faces competition from Amoonguss and of course the competition for a Mega slot.
Arcanine: A- to B+ :: It's rather frail for a defensive Pokemon, and as an attacker it faces competition from Entei, which manages to be both bulky and offensive. Will-O-Wisp, Snarl, STAB Fire attacks, and Morning Sun makes it a better straight up defensive Fire-type than Rotom-H and stuff, though. Maybe you guys can make a case for a more innovative Arcanine set?
Azumarill: B+ to A- :: what Yugi said, really

I also wanted to see what people think about M-Gengar right now, honestly given the dominance of Kangaskhan at the moment and the unpopularity of Charizard-Y, which is something that threatens to muscle through the perish trap. Which is another thing-- Politoed might be better than Dewgong in the Gengar-Charizard matchup, but given this meta trend, how much better/worse is Dewgong than Politoed as a secondary Perish Song user?

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Mega Gengar

130 Speed and 175 Sp. Atk, could, god forbid, be used to outrun and attack things, but that is what non-mega Gengar's lesser stats are used for.
Ranking Mega Gengar is basically just ranking PerishTrap since it's pretty much interchangable. It's vulnerable to things like Hydreigon, Mega Metagross (since PerishTrap Gengar, you know, doesn't bother to outrun and OHKO with Shadow Ball), Landog, Aegislash, Trick Room, Thundurus, and even it's own non-Mega to an extent, but Perish Song is so absurdly fucking broken when you're unable to switch that these faults mean almost nothing. 130 Speed, Protect/Sub, and Disable means that most stuff that can hit it, such as Landog, have only 1 easily Disabled attack to use. Mega Gengar being A is fine, it can't just be splashed onto nearly any team and kill 1-2 mons a match like Khan or Landog but I'm surprised to see it lower than Char-Y. Char-Y is amazing but it can't just kill literally the entire relevent metagame with cancer- I mean Perish Song. I know I passionately hate it beyond measure (surpassing even Chansey on my small list of hatred) but I do stand that it's virtually uncounterable except by extreme means that no team should have to stoop to (aka, Soundproof, Max Speed Electrode with Mental Herb, Taunt, and Volt Switch). I think people want to drop it lower because it only does one thing or something, but the one thing it actually does is just so atrocious that it should be A-, minimum. If you aren't prepared for it, you WILL die.
Hell, if you are prepared for it, you'll probably die anyway. But at least you have might have a chance. It's not super popular but it's a threat we should always bear in mind, imo.

Azumarill

Great typing, offensively and defensively, great power, and the bulk isn't too bad. May sound odd, but I view Azumarill similar to Machamp: strong, hard to OHKO, and tricky to deal with, but slow, and a 2HKO isn't unreasonable.
imo Azumarill is a bit slow for Tailwind and Icy Wind based teams, but perfectly fine for Thunder Wave and Trick Room based support. But, thanks to that typing and bulk leaving little to be desired, it can function on a last-attack basis and Aqua Jet isn't too shabby on priority. I personally have not had much issue with it; but I know when to respect a foe. It crushes a lot of relevent threats, including but not limited to, Landog, Hydreigon, Heatran, TTar, Excadrill, Terrakion, etc.
It can hit almost anything pretty hard, and knock Off / Aqua Jet even offer some utility. Fair bit of versatility: AV, Belly Drum + Sitrus, Lum Berry, Choice Band, and even the niche but still horrifying Perish Song variant. It's also one of four viable physical Fairies (Mega Mawile and Mega Altaria eat a Mega, and Granbull, but I'll save you all a wall and not discuss Granbull in this post) and all things considered it's pretty solid on a lot of teams; even alongside Char-Y.
Has trouble against faster, hard hitters like Mega Khan and Mega Salamence, but even in troubled situations it's not exactly dead weight. Partners well with Amoonguss as stated above.
imo, really solid mon that has shown success, A- is my vote. Doomed against Amoonguss / Ferrothorn / Mega Venusaur / Char-Y but no Pokemon is perfect.

Dewgong

It's adorable. A+ or bust.
Fake Out + Icy Wind was a very important niche in 2014 but much less relevent in 2015; better off with Blastoise, Weavile, etc.
Also has the rare Encore + Disable but derpy Speed prevents that from shining; use Whimsicott/Liepard + Mega Gengar for auto struggles, or Alakazam if you just want to save a team slot.
Pretty nice offensive movepool despite lacking Scald (the second biggest curse of all Ice/Water types), as it has Ice Shard, Aqua Jet, Perish Song, GROWL, Icicle Spear, Brine, Sheer Cold, and Drill Run.
Just leave it unranked lol.

Vivillion

Actually no, not going there.
Powder is an amazing move though guys, it's up there with Soak on the "Horrifying in ways few will ever understand" scale. Do remember it's +1 priority.

tl;dr:

Mega Gengar can stay in A or go down to A-, imo Azumarill from B+ to A-, Dewgong to A+ for being adorable.

 

[Rosen]

I don't see Gliscor on the rankings; is it not allowed in VGC 2015, or is it really just that shitty?

 

[tofucocoa]

Yeah, it's outclassed by Landorus-T as a defensive option, Garchomp and Landorus-T (again) as an EQ user, Togekiss/Suicune/Zapdos as a Tailwind setter, etc.

 

[nightwolf]

I don't see Gliscor on the rankings; is it not allowed in VGC 2015, or is it really just that shitty?

I think Gliscor is a decent pokemon and has nice moves/abilities, that being said its like going to a drag race in a Prius and leaving the Ferrari back home.

 

[Mishimono]

I may be bias once again to Azumarill as I really like the pokemon but I feel it is worthy of A-. As I was looking over the regionals teams I saw a big spike in Azumarill. The things that sets Azumarill above other bulky waters is it is a physical attacker, it is part fairy and has Belly Drum. Starting with the Belly Drum set Azumarill is terrifying once setup as it can OHKO most mons that don't rest Aqua Jet, many mons can help setup a Belly Drum such as Raichu, Kangaskhan, Amoonguss, Clefairy or even Mega-Lopunny, Azumarill also has great bulk so if you come up across something that won't KO you you hit back with a massive Play Rough which can do heavy damage to mons that resist it. If using Trick Room with Azumarill I generally like Choice Band (or if you want immediate offensive pressure) now with a Choice Band Azumarill still hits crazy hard just look at these calcs.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 186-218 (112.7 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Suicune: 115-136 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now do you see the power of Azumarill :). The next set is Assault Vest which is a more defensive Azumarill but still hits pretty hard. Based on what I now (sorry haven't really used AV) this Azumarill serves as more of a Fairy hitting for hard damage with Play Rough and Waterfall.

Oh ya there is also this Sap Sipper PerishTrap that I've heard is kinda cool but I've never used it so....

 

[tofucocoa]

Azumarill

imo, really solid mon that has shown success, A- is my vote. Doomed against Amoonguss / Ferrothorn / Mega Venusaur / Char-Y but no Pokemon is perfect.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 243-287 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 216-255 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
can't ohko megasaur because of mega stone mechanics... but that's what kang is for.

i think a lot of the azumarills that did well this past regs were using knock off. and i'm pretty sure +6 aqua jet can ohko zardy in the sun.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 204-240 (110.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so like maybe it is perfect????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Mishimono]

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 243-287 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 216-255 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
can't ohko megasaur because of mega stone mechanics... but that's what kang is for.

i think a lot of the azumarills that did well this past regs were using knock off. and i'm pretty sure +6 aqua jet can ohko zardy in the sun.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 204-240 (110.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so like maybe it is perfect????????????????????????????????????????????????

Ya knock off was seen alot and it is very good.

 

[Steven Stone]

so like maybe it is perfect????????????????????????????????????????????????

NAHHHHH..... You got that awful base 50 speed which keeps it cool n_n

 

[ProjectTitan313]

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 243-287 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 216-255 (119.3 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
can't ohko megasaur because of mega stone mechanics... but that's what kang is for.

i think a lot of the azumarills that did well this past regs were using knock off. and i'm pretty sure +6 aqua jet can ohko zardy in the sun.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 204-240 (110.2 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so like maybe it is perfect????????????????????????????????????????????????

If it gets a Belly Drum setup, yes. :P

 

[Yugi]

lucariojr did i have a good explanation on why azu should move up please answer because im just learning to do these things :D

Also,

.

Now this pokemon is a fantastic pokemon design wise and competitive wise.It beats the likes of megardes isnt so so weak to knock off and has an amazing speed tier which i think only prankster pokemon,megazam and ninjask outspeed him(sure there is speed boost mons but wtf them).It serves as a great stopper and really gives you to think.Now i have never,and i say never played mega gengar this season but i can tell you how it functions.It functions as a game-stopper/changer with its amazing ability shadow tag which only gothitelle and wobbuffet get(sorry if mispronounced),and with its amazing amazing speed tier at 130 and a great 170 base SpA and the ability to trap all the non-ghost types and as lucariojr stated with the dominance of megarde kangaskhan this pokemon has really seen some great usage.And having the unconventional speed control in icy wind and the really oddball trick room it serves as a great speed controller aswell.Shadow Ball is a great way for hitting ghosts such as aegis and possibly have a hax control aswell with SBall and SBomb.(the 10% chance to lower SDef and Poison Someone comes in handy lemme say that much)and it is a great check to the likes of sylveon garde kangaskhan salamence and MVenu aswell.It also is a great partner to whimsicott which forms the cotton of doom core.It can be adapted to live -1 LandoEQ which is an important calc.

 

[Kialandi]

Ok, I haven't been active on this thread as such but I still do a lot in VGC, so I'll give my opinion

Staraptor

Although many would pass it over for the more conventional Talonflame, I believe it is powerful enough to make its own name. Sure, it has final gambit, which might be nice for taking out important stuff, but to be honest, I reckon it has more potential offensive-wise. I mean, 2 120 BP STAB moves in Brave Bird and Double Edge, Add Close Combat, Reckless ability and maybe a choice band and heck, you can plough your way through teams. Something it also has over Talonflame is that it's only 2x weak to rock (not great but better) Intimidate is also a nice option as well.


Escavalier

Although it needs TR to function, this cavalier is SUPER powerful. It's one of the few Pokemon that can KO Cresselia, (Megahorn) has a great STAB iron head for pesky fairies and Drill run is great coverage. Overcoat is great in Sand/Hail TR as well as being a great switch-in to Amoonguss' spore.

Overall I believe both these Pokemon should move up, Scav should definitely be higher than D

 

[Rocxidi]

Saw the convo a page back about Vivillon and I think you're all forgetting it gets tailwind. Literally all you need is a fake out and Vivillon can use tailwind and outspeed the entire metagame i think. It outclasses breloom as a support as it can set its own tailwind and not waste another slot on suicune, zapdos, etc. It's still shit defensively, forcing you to run sash, but the ability to hit grass types with hurricane allows it to not be bothered by the immunity to sleep powder unlike breloom who gets walled by amoongus and venusaur. Vivillon is not perfect nor good, as it loses to rock slide, talonflame, etc. but it's definitely a bit lower than it should and very underestimated. with proper prediction, setup swerpers like pup kanghaskan can destroy opposing teams.

But if you guys wanna talk about dewgong instead thats okay :/

powder and rage powder are trash please use the smogon doubles set