VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2

[Xanda]

made changes.

tyranitar: B+ -> A- :: ttar has high stats, amazing movepool, and great ability. i guess it isn't something to underestimate after all.
gardevoir-mega: B+ -> A :: i've been looking at gardevoir just for fun before nats and japan nats, and i've been loving it. its builds are kinda like zardy where you dump a bunch of EVs into defenses, run a modest nature, outspeed something important (20 speed outspeeds bisharp outside of TR... try holding off on evolving to outspeed it under TR!), and let its ability and naturally high attack do most of the heavy lifting. you do have to keep it away from other megas, but you have like 5 team slots to help you with that. not to mention it does better than sylveon against amoonguss/venusaur and has a better matchup with zard than sylv thanks to STAB psychic. i could move it up to A+, but i would like to see more discussion on it, especially since i still see talk of stuff like ally switch, which is complete garbage and you shouldn't waste your time with ally switch mega gardevoir. encore and trick room are frankly the only support options gardevoir should be concerned with, or at the very least, shit that isn't fucking ally switch (using taunt and wow on garde is like running wow zard-y... it just doesn't work)
milotic: B+ -> A :: fits in with suicune in terms of landorus hate and bulky water stuff. it's more offensive if your opponent feeds it.
ludicolo: A- -> B+ :: rain with ludicolo needs to die or use protect ludicolo. ludi's naturally low stats means you need rain for it to have good speed and therefore a good pokemon, but then you're sacrificing two team slots for one good pokemon basically. its low base power moves relies on it getting super effective hits, and against kang... hope for a burn or you're getting double edged or sucker punched. ttar being more popular doesn't help it too much, even if it has a good matchup with ttar itself.
terrakion: A -> A- :: terrakion gets walled easily by aegislash like mega metagross and has a huge problem with redirection and intimidate. not to mention it gets creamed by the #1 mon, landorus-t, but it does create positive matchups with fire types, kang, and sand to an extent.
metagross-mega: A+ -> A- :: hard walled by aegislash, heatran, and bisharp (kinda). doesn't have an amazing matchup with stuff it should beat either (kangaskhan, mawile, salamence, even cress). still a powerhouse that checks problem pokemon.
garchomp: B+ -> B :: chomper is outclassed badly by landorus-t. that's about it, really.
Clefable A+ -> A :: outclassed slightly by clefairy. it could move back up though.

i will also ask you all to consider moving regular metagross up to C+. it's pretty good right now (well, better) with everyone's attention starting to shift towards gardevoir and megamence, and beats amoonguss/mega venusaur, cresselia, does well as a fighting check, and helps with fairy-types in general. that's mostly theorymon though, and of course it kinda struggles with a lot of the meta, but its niche seems a little stronger, much like the other stuff in C+.

I disagree with some of those (not that it matters but still...).

Tyranitar: Should remain in where it is. If scarfed it's pretty easy to lock in a move and playing it around. If not scarfed it get outspeeds by almost everything and usually dies. As someone before me said, i think it's just a sand bot.

Gardevoir: I'm on a fence on A- or A with this. I mean, i'm not really sure if it'll last because it's a good meta call against japan sand team (at least the top 2 team in US seemed to be made just to counter that). The problem is that's still walled by pretty common thing and usually dies to a direct strong physical attack even neutral.

Milotic: Pretty good on this one.

Ludicolo: the problem lies in the fact that with an item and weather it become a 600 stats pokemon, when one of them is not present its potential lowers drastically (even if the typing is still darn good). Imho if rain will become prevalent again it could remain where it is (or even rise) but now it can drop a little.

Terrakion: i don't know about this one. A pokemon that single handly destroy heatran, kanga, bisharp and charizard while still being good against thundurus is always nice. Still it struggles against some other common poke so i think we will see in future.

Mega Metagross: Premise, it's not hard walled by bisharp and heatran until it can learn hammer arm, this leads to the core of the problem. People crystallized on one thing and never managed to get through. SubMetagross is good but now that there's no more the element of surprise they never adapted. For example when not sub it usually run ice punch for coverage but personally the more i play the more i realize that hammer arm is a lot better. Basically you run ice punch for lando-t (that it's still 2KHO by iron head), salamence (if salamence lacks a fire move metagross tackles it pretty easily) and thundurus (the bulky one never gets OHKed so you can still use zen headbutt and obtain the same 2HKO). Instead hammer arm transforms a bad matchup, like heatran, into a good one. Of course the speed drop sucks but given the amount of semi trick room that are around it's not always so bad. One more thing to add is why people still use 4/252/252 jolly spread. The only meaningful pokemons that you outspeed this way are terrakion (and virizion) and kanga but if terrakion is less played and the other will just sucker punch it makes no sense going full speed. Adamant full atk can get some neat KOs like

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 172-204 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 180-214 (99.4 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Of if you go bulky and play Sub it will not break by weaker neutral attacks (scalds from politoed or milotic for example).

For those reason it should be at least A.

Garchomp: I don't think it's just a weaker version of landorus tbh. It has a great speed so it doesn't need to run choice scarf and rough skin can be incredibly useful. Lately i noticed a trend of Sdance chomp and i assure you that if it sets up you can basically concede.

Clefable, probably a good call here.

I wanted to add some nominations

Arcanine to B+: Why is this thing so high? I think i've never seen one doing good in a tournament nor doing something in general. Imho it's a patchwerk of thing other pokemon can do better. Fire type? Heatran, Charizard, Rotom-H. Intimidate? Lando-t, Salamence, Scrafty. Snarl? Well, there are not a lot of pokemons using it except for suicune. WoW? Rotom, Gengar.

It's the same for entei because except for sacred fire and some bulk it doesn't offer much to the table.

Cresselia to A: In a lot of streming matches featuring Cress i always noticed a thing. She almost doesn't do anything. You basically need calm mind to make her threatening or helping hand to support your teammate. If it lacks one of those you can ignore her because she is passive as ****.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

I've got a few thoughts on this too, though, again, it probably wouldn't matter haha

Tyranitar: With sand being, arguably, the best weather currently in the meta, I completely agree with it moving up. Also, it's pretty unpredictable too. This thing's movepool is gigantic combined with really good stats, warrants an increase imo.

Gardevoir: I feel like this thing is comparable to Mega Metagross. When it does well, it does really well, but when something walls it, it's hard stopped. Sure it can run coverage moves like Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, but Shadow Ball is pretty weak (and it risks activating Aegislash's WP) and Focus Blast is pretty unreliable. It does have interesting support options like WoW, TR, and Encore so I guess it's slightly better. Still on the fence about moving this straight up to A though.

Milotic: agreed

Ludicolo: also agreed. It needs Rain to even be threatening. AV Ludicolo is also pretty weak ngl

Terrakion: Agreeing with above post. Sure it loses to Landorus and redirection, but, as stated above, it has a really good matchup against Kanga, zard, heatran, and Thundurus.

Metagross: agreed

Garchomp: on the fence, but more or less agree

Clefable: clefairy is far superior haha

As for the post above, I don't necessarily agree with rk9 moving down to A-. Fire-types are a really good defensive typing this year. There aren't many defensive Fire-types in the meta right now anyways. There's rk9, Entei, and Rotom-H but that's basically it. While yes, individually speaking rk9 is outclassed by those Pokemon you listed, however, there isn't a single Pokemon with all those qualities combined. It's got a reliable recovery move in the form of Morning Sun, two ways of crippling your opponent, and respectable bulk. I do think that A is a bit too high for it, personally I see this thing tied to Entei. I don't mind either way though.

Cresselia is super splashable and offers A+ level of support to its teammate, essentially allowing every team to have a TR mode. But yeah it is pretty passive, so I don't really mind if it moves down or stays A+

A nomination of my own:
Politoed to B+: This thing, like Cresselia, is super passive but the only support move worth running on Politoed is like Encore, which i don't think is that great, and Helping Hand. Rain is also pretty meh right now imo. It has decent bulk but really mediocre attacking stats. The Scarf set is also pretty weak defensively, since you pretty much have to go max/max on it. It's also a major momentum sapper.

 

[Synral]

i actually disagree on toed. rain boosted scalds are good chip damage vs most things, and it's starting to see success as a bulky water rather than the rain setter, which takes a lot of pressure off it to beat tyranitar. like lucariojr said, ludicolo has been lacking all format, and the more politoed can shine without it, the better it can be

 

[Pigeons]

Politoed to B+: This thing, like Cresselia, is super passive but the only support move worth running on Politoed is like Encore, which i don't think is that great, and Helping Hand. Rain is also pretty meh right now imo. It has decent bulk but really mediocre attacking stats. The Scarf set is also pretty weak defensively, since you pretty much have to go max/max on it. It's also a major momentum sapper.

I don't agree with the notion that Poli and I very much disagree with the notion that rain is a meh playstyle currently. Very few people actually prepare for rain nowadays, and most teams have 1 or 2 soft checks and nothing else. I also think you're underselling Politoed's support potential, Icy Wind is a very useful move it has in its arsenal, and Perish Song is a very usable option as well, and it also gives Perish Song teams a rain mode, and as I said I believe rain is a quite powerful playstyle right now. Overall, I think Poli should definitely stay in A- alongside Tyranitar, even though sand has been getting much more use recently.

A nom of my own, I think Sylveon should move down to A or lower. It's still powerful, but the Specs set has really lost effectiveness, especially now that almost every team has a Wide Guard user or something that doesn't mind Hyper Voice at all. It has coverage moves, but it almost never wants to be locked into them, and plus its coverage moves don't hit all that hard in the first place even with Specs. It is also very slow, and that really hurts its effectiveness because it will usually have to tank a hit before attacking, and it doesn't do that particularly well from the physical side of the spectrum. LO sets suffer further from the frailness issue, and the power of its coverage moves is still lacking. Bulky sets are cool for sure, but they often end up lacking in the damage department, even on neutral hits. Sylveon still has the niche of not being a Mega, but it has far more shortcomings and should either be ranked with Mega Gardevoir or below it, as it doesn't really have enough of a niche to justify a higher ranking.

 

[Yugi]

I nominate Mega Mawile for A-.

This thing is a beast.Even after intimidate it can 2HKO Lando-T with either play rough or iron head,and i know because i used sucker punch on Lando-T and it did around 40-45%,so yeah.It serves as a Hard counter to mega mence(EQless) and it is very good against the current meta.I mean most people use sand in 2015 and mawile Checks and defeats ttar the so called Sandbot.It also has the defense enough to catch alot of Kangs moves and a great typing.It only suffers from the fire types but 1 teammate is enough to deal with those,and frankly a water type goes so well with Mawile letting it fire off water STABs to both ground/fire types,while mawile can deal with pesky grass/electric(bar mega manectric).It serves as a nice check to aegi with not having to worry about KS cuz you wont get the Att drop from it while attacking with Spunch.It also is a nice check to Garde/Sylv 2 dominating fairies in this format.It is also a check to MMeta,with threatening sucker punch,allthough it can be predicted,but these are doubles not singles so a teammate can easily break a potential sub.


I rest my case.

 

[Ace Emerald]

I nominate Mega Mawile for A-.

This thing is a beast.Even after intimidate it can 2HKO Lando-T with either play rough or iron head,and i know because i used sucker punch on Lando-T and it did around 40-45%,so yeah.It serves as a Hard counter to mega mence(EQless) and it is very good against the current meta.I mean most people use sand in 2015 and mawile Checks and defeats ttar the so called Sandbot.It also has the defense enough to catch alot of Kangs moves and a great typing.It only suffers from the fire types but 1 teammate is enough to deal with those,and frankly a water type goes so well with Mawile letting it fire off water STABs to both ground/fire types,while mawile can deal with pesky grass/electric(bar mega manectric).It serves as a nice check to aegi with not having to worry about KS cuz you wont get the Att drop from it while attacking with Spunch.It also is a nice check to Garde/Sylv 2 dominating fairies in this format.It is also a check to MMeta,with threatening sucker punch,allthough it can be predicted,but these are doubles not singles so a teammate can easily break a potential sub.


I rest my case.

Mawile is a great Pokemon, no doubt about it. However, it fits way better with the description of B rank. Your argument really understates the team support it requires. Mawile is very, very slow. This means that it's team either needs serious speed control or it needs to be comfortable with its powerhouse moving last. This slow speed means it has to worry more about pokemon that can burn it; other attackers like khan or mence can deal a large amount of damage to a potential burn inflictor, possibly KOing it before it can burn. Also, moving slower means that opponents have a chance to pile on strong, neutral attacks (especially on its weaker special defense) to deal with Mawile before it can attack. Also, Heatran is huge at the moment, and mawile is almost useless against it, especially substitute. And aegislash checks mawile way more than the opposite: if you're wasting time sucker punching the aegislash, its partner can start weakening your mawile. If it kings shield and switches afterwards, your teams biggest hitter has wasted two turns. And if it's a sub set, it full counters most mawile. Aegislash is really big at the moment, and that match up is far from positive. All of this means it needs the proper team. It's not bad, and your support of its strengths are valid. But it needs too much team support in the current meta to be A rank.

 

[Ksh13]

Okay, want to nom Escavalier from D to C-/C

Escavalier should be over D rank. It has two main niches in teams, checking Trick Room, or sweeping under Trick Room. Going to talk about checking Trick Room first. With Life Orb it has a solid chance to OHKO most variants of Cresselia, and dish out plenty of damage without it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Escavalier Megahorn vs. 220 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 221-265 (99.1 - 118.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 220 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 170-204 (76.2 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Amoonguss is not a problem for it, as its Ability Overcoat allows it to ignore Amoonguss support moves. Jellicent is a bit of an issue if you run Assault Vest, as you are vurnerable to Will-O-Wisp, but with Life Orb you can Protect yourself from Will-O-Wisp, and even OHKO Jellicent's without defense investment.

252+ Atk Life Orb Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jellicent: 216-255 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir just dies to Iron Head, and that sould cover the most common TR setters (ofc Amoonguss doesn't set TR, I just mentioned it in there). This niche justifies Escavalier a spot in certain teams, and does not do much else than check TR in these teams. Seeing as Lapras, which almost only is used to check rain, is C+, Escavalier should at least be higher than D. Lapras can pull its weight against non-rain stuff though, and should be a rank or two above, as Escavalier will struggle doing much against non-TR things.

Just a bit about TR sweeping. Escavalier also functions as a Trick Room sweeper, although it is not the most common. It has an attack stat of 135, which is very good, and also decent bulk. It is not too good as a main sweeper in a TR part of a team, but better to bring coverage in a fully dedicated TR team imo. Its role as a TR sweeper might be D rank worthy (maybe C-), but for checking TR it should be over D imo.

 

[Yugi]

Okay, want to nom Escavalier from D to C-/C

Escavalier should be over D rank. It has two main niches in teams, checking Trick Room, or sweeping under Trick Room. Going to talk about checking Trick Room first. With Life Orb it has a solid chance to OHKO most variants of Cresselia, and dish out plenty of damage without it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Escavalier Megahorn vs. 220 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 221-265 (99.1 - 118.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 220 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 170-204 (76.2 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Amoonguss is not a problem for it, as its Ability Overcoat allows it to ignore Amoonguss support moves. Jellicent is a bit of an issue if you run Assault Vest, as you are vurnerable to Will-O-Wisp, but with Life Orb you can Protect yourself from Will-O-Wisp, and even OHKO Jellicent's without defense investment.

252+ Atk Life Orb Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jellicent: 216-255 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir just dies to Iron Head, and that sould cover the most common TR setters (ofc Amoonguss doesn't set TR, I just mentioned it in there). This niche justifies Escavalier a spot in certain teams, and does not do much else than check TR in these teams. Seeing as Lapras, which almost only is used to check rain, is C+, Escavalier should at least be higher than D. Lapras can pull its weight against non-rain stuff though, and should be a rank or two above, as Escavalier will struggle doing much against non-TR things.

Just a bit about TR sweeping. Escavalier also functions as a Trick Room sweeper, although it is not the most common. It has an attack stat of 135, which is very good, and also decent bulk. It is not too good as a main sweeper in a TR part of a team, but better to bring coverage in a fully dedicated TR team imo. Its role as a TR sweeper might be D rank worthy (maybe C-), but for checking TR it should be over D imo.

I definetily agree,Under trick room is amazing,but the problem is that if the TR setter is killed before the TR itself escavalier doesnt have much use in the battle.Still it can take couple of hits but threatening fire types like heatran threaten it out and it does serve as a check to the TR setters bar Jelli and Slowbro,but slowbro isnt that viable and jelli just dies to a strong physical hit that the teammate might be providing.I do agree on a raise but i dont think it should go more than D.With its amazing attack stat as you mentioned before it serves as a wallbreaker in many cases and it also serves as a sweeper under right circumstances.And yes i know it does have drill run for heatran but heatran can knock it out before it is able to make a move.This pokemon needs to have the right circumstances to shine and its a very high risk high reward kind of pokemon.

 

[Demantoid]

I definetily agree,Under trick room is amazing,but the problem is that if the TR setter is killed before the TR itself escavalier doesnt have much use in the battle.Still it can take couple of hits but threatening fire types like heatran threaten it out and it does serve as a check to the TR setters bar Jelli and Slowbro,but slowbro isnt that viable and jelli just dies to a strong physical hit that the teammate might be providing.I do agree on a raise but i dont think it should go more than D.With its amazing attack stat as you mentioned before it serves as a wallbreaker in many cases and it also serves as a sweeper under right circumstances.And yes i know it does have drill run for heatran but heatran can knock it out before it is able to make a move.This pokemon needs to have the right circumstances to shine and its a very high risk high reward kind of pokemon.

Escavelier does need to tr to be effective but if you look at the C-rank description it says these Pokemon "require much team support to work on most team." Escavelier can ohko some Jellicents with LO and ohkos any Slowbro with a LO (unless you were talking about Mega Slowbro which isn't very good).

 

[Yugi]

Escavelier does need to tr to be effective but if you look at the C-rank description it says these Pokemon "require much team support to work on most team." Escavelier can ohko some Jellicents with LO and ohkos any Slowbro with a LO (unless you were talking about Mega Slowbro which isn't very good).

I meant heatran can deal with all of the TR setters well bar jellicent and slowbro i didnt say anything about esca dealing with them

 

[Steven Stone]

Well, i might be the one to ask to move down Clefairy a bit. Like, it isn't as good as it used to be because people now can just either ignore it or target it down, which isn't really affecting the metagame as much as Amoonguss.
The real reason why i think the little fairy should drop is because its offensive presence is comparable to Murkrow's, hasn't showed any real success recently, and it loses to most if not all A+ ranks. Not asking for a huge drop, but still.

 

[nicholascookie]

Note how all Pokemon A- Rank and above have a way to actually win the game on their own (damage). If pure supporting utility is the retarded excuse for it to be at the top, I'd nominate Whimsicott for A+, but we're all not that stupid. Nominating both Clefairy and Clefable to drop to A-: I don't feel that Clefable is entirely outclassed by Clefairy when it gives a little endgame insurance (save for Minimize shenanigans, but again, timer stall) and potentially has more bulk than Clefairy (Sitrus berry, everyone seems to forget that Clefable can actually choose to hold an item).

 

[Synral]

clefable can actually kill landorus-t which is worth something over clefairy

 

[Ksh13]

Agreeing on dropping Clefairy down at least to A. It almost only offers better support for setup-sweepers such as CharX and MegaMence as Friend Guard lets them stomach Rock Slide and such easier over Clefable. It is still deadly together with MegaMence, but it is not worthy of A+. Clefable has an offensive pressure and can deal damage to things, and can hold an item. They should be ranked together in A.

 

[Mishimono]

Agreeing on dropping Clefairy down at least to A. It almost only offers better support for setup-sweepers such as CharX and MegaMence as Friend Guard lets them stomach Rock Slide and such easier over Clefable. It is still deadly together with MegaMence, but it is not worthy of A+. Clefable has an offensive pressure and can deal damage to things, and can hold an item. They should be ranked together in A.

I don't think Clefairy is better than Clefable. While Clefairy has Friend Guard which helps setup at least Clefable can get KOs with Ice Beam and Moonblast while Clefairy merely dents them.

 

[Vivian23]

Hey, gliscor is bulky, has tailwind, feint( yeah, might be usefull when protect, wide guard and quick guard are everywhere). So, isnt it worth at least D rank?

 

[Mishimono]

Hey, gliscor is bulky, has tailwind, feint( yeah, might be usefull when protect, wide guard and quick guard are everywhere). So, isnt it worth at least D rank?

Could be D rank never really tried it out. Too bad it has a bad typing for defense considering bulky waters are everywhere.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Hey, gliscor is bulky, has tailwind, feint( yeah, might be usefull when protect, wide guard and quick guard are everywhere). So, isnt it worth at least D rank?

Gliscor could be a really neat bulky Tailwind, considered using it more than once, but never got to it. Landog is the obvious competition, with much higher Atk and better (initial) bulk, but Gliscor does have Taunt, Tailwind, better physical bulk against non-Intimidated foes, and gives no fucks about WoW thanks to Poison Heal. Gliscor has higher Base Speed too, but it's largely irrelevent. Healing 25% of HP every other turn is nice though. Oh and Glscor has Flying STAB, that thing Landog has never heard of. I'd call it a D if only because of niche it has that nothing else really does.
Eh I'm bored, I'll give a supportive Gliscor a go. Wouldn't be the first time I've ran a weird ass bulky Tailwind mon. ;)

 

[Ksh13]

I don't want to sound like I am just basing this off Worlds (which I am not, I have actually used it a bit to decent success earlier and kind of wanted to nom it up then), but Machamp for C+.

Machap is definetly worthy of rising to C+. It has 130 Attack coupled with base 100 power Dynamic Punch, so offensive pressure is for sure a thing when you use Machamp. It also has fairly good natural bulk, with 90 HP / 80 Def / 85 SpDef. It suffers from a pittyful base 55 Speed, but it has the bulk to tank a hit and deal some hefty damage in return (it can also be helped by various ways of speed control; TR, Tailwind, T-Wave, etc.). In reality we all know what Machamp does best though. Confuse everything until it dies with Dynamic Punch. This is unique for the Machamp line only iirc, and boy it is awesome. When opponents are confused, they first of all have a 50 % chance of doing nothing else than hitting themselves with a base 40 Attack physical move without a type to themselves. The opponent is also in a position were they really want to switch out, but realise that there is not too much of a point, you will just get confused with that Pokemon too the next turn anyways. Playing against a well played Machamp makes life a bitch if you are not granted the gift of having rngesus on your side. This whole Dynamic Punch thing makes Machamp have right around zero perfect switch-ins (excpet stuff with whatever ability makes you not get confused that I can't be bothered with googling the name of). That is indeed something to think about when talking about Machamp. Also, I don't have the great wall of calcs here because the specific damage output Machamp has is kind of irrelevant imo for its viability (I can though say that Adamant 252 HP / 188 Atk / 68 def lets you beat Jolly Double-Edge Kangaskhan).

Let's talk a bit about something else than Dynamic Punch, shall we? Machamp actually also has some really nice stuff outside of Dynamic Punch. To start off, it gets Wide Guard. I feel like Wide Guard is kind of an underrated move even at this point in the meta, because spread moves from Lando, Sylveon, Garde, and Mence are still real. It just requires some more skilled predictions to pull of Wide Guard succesfully. When it is not coming from Aegislash or Swampert people also might not see it coming, so that is a plus for Machamp. It also gets Stone Edge, which ofc OHKO's Talon and Zard Y, but also OHKO's 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus 100 % of the time. More bulky spreads are not OHKOed, but they take quite the beating. Knock Off is also a nice thing in Machamp's arsenal, providing some nice utility (which imo is underrated but w/e), and coverage for Ghosts which are immune to Dynamic Punch. With Lum Berry you also troll the shit out of WoW Gengar (you will also need like a spread move or something to break the Sash or clean it up after Knock Off pops the Sash). Ice Punch is also worth a mention, dealing super effective damage to Lando-T, Mence, etc. It does not OHKO any of them after Intimidate though, which sucks (Mega Mence isn't even a certain OHKO without Intimidate), and is why I never run it. Machamp also gets a bunch of other niche options, such as Bullet Punch, Quick Guard, Rock Slide, EQ. If we start talking about niche things I might as well bring up the fact that a Scarf set somehow gets usage on Battle Spot, so I guess it is an option. Other than that, Machamp likes running Lum, Sitrus, or AV.

I feel like this kind of massive wall of text somewhat explains why Machamp could rise up to C+ (and possibly higher, but I'll stick to a C+ promotion to begin with)

 

[ProjectTitan313]

I don't want to sound like I am just basing this off Worlds (which I am not, I have actually used it a bit to decent success earlier and kind of wanted to nom it up then), but Machamp for C+.

Machap is definetly worthy of rising to C+. It has 130 Attack coupled with base 100 power Dynamic Punch, so offensive pressure is for sure a thing when you use Machamp. It also has fairly good natural bulk, with 90 HP / 80 Def / 85 SpDef. It suffers from a pittyful base 55 Speed, but it has the bulk to tank a hit and deal some hefty damage in return (it can also be helped by various ways of speed control; TR, Tailwind, T-Wave, etc.). In reality we all know what Machamp does best though. Confuse everything until it dies with Dynamic Punch. This is unique for the Machamp line only iirc, and boy it is awesome. When opponents are confused, they first of all have a 50 % chance of doing nothing else than hitting themselves with a base 40 Attack physical move without a type to themselves. The opponent is also in a position were they really want to switch out, but realise that there is not too much of a point, you will just get confused with that Pokemon too the next turn anyways. Playing against a well played Machamp makes life a bitch if you are not granted the gift of having rngesus on your side. This whole Dynamic Punch thing makes Machamp have right around zero perfect switch-ins (excpet stuff with whatever ability makes you not get confused that I can't be bothered with googling the name of). That is indeed something to think about when talking about Machamp. Also, I don't have the great wall of calcs here because the specific damage output Machamp has is kind of irrelevant imo for its viability (I can though say that Adamant 252 HP / 188 Atk / 68 def lets you beat Jolly Double-Edge Kangaskhan).

Let's talk a bit about something else than Dynamic Punch, shall we? Machamp actually also has some really nice stuff outside of Dynamic Punch. To start off, it gets Wide Guard. I feel like Wide Guard is kind of an underrated move even at this point in the meta, because spread moves from Lando, Sylveon, Garde, and Mence are still real. It just requires some more skilled predictions to pull of Wide Guard succesfully. When it is not coming from Aegislash or Swampert people also might not see it coming, so that is a plus for Machamp. It also gets Stone Edge, which ofc OHKO's Talon and Zard Y, but also OHKO's 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus 100 % of the time. More bulky spreads are not OHKOed, but they take quite the beating. Knock Off is also a nice thing in Machamp's arsenal, providing some nice utility (which imo is underrated but w/e), and coverage for Ghosts which are immune to Dynamic Punch. With Lum Berry you also troll the shit out of WoW Gengar (you will also need like a spread move or something to break the Sash or clean it up after Knock Off pops the Sash). Ice Punch is also worth a mention, dealing super effective damage to Lando-T, Mence, etc. It does not OHKO any of them after Intimidate though, which sucks (Mega Mence isn't even a certain OHKO without Intimidate), and is why I never run it. Machamp also gets a bunch of other niche options, such as Bullet Punch, Quick Guard, Rock Slide, EQ. If we start talking about niche things I might as well bring up the fact that a Scarf set somehow gets usage on Battle Spot, so I guess it is an option. Other than that, Machamp likes running Lum, Sitrus, or AV.

I feel like this kind of massive wall of text somewhat explains why Machamp could rise up to C+ (and possibly higher, but I'll stick to a C+ promotion to begin with)

Scarf is used to just barely outrun max Speed 105 (Lopunny, Mienshao, Manectric) so you can check things like Char-Y (Stone Edge), Khan, Garchomp, non-Scarf Hydreigon, most Thundurus (bulky doesn't run max Speed), etc. No Guard makes it so you don't have the embarresment of missing with Stone Edge and such when you need it the most; Mienshao is far more destructive and runs almost identical Speed with the option to switch moves/hold an item, but Machamp is a 100% chance of KO, instead of 60% with Mienshao's Stone Edge. tl;dr its a bulkier Mienshao substitute. Hate the damn thing, kicks my ass every time.

Bulk, Machamp is hard to OHKO but very easy to 2HKO and considering Doubles + low Speed, imo that's its big issue. AV is pretty neat but prevents Guards and Protect, and leaves you open to WoW / Sleep Powder / physical. Lum is nice. Coverage, power, and sheer versatility of it is fucking amazing though. Pair it with T-Wave support and it'll burn down the world with pure hatred. Togekiss and Thundy, mainly.
Takes a fair bit of support, as you NEED Mence, Talonflame, Metagross, Sylveon, Gardevoir, etc. handled (Aegislash, wink wink) but it fights like a warhammer: slow and unwieldly, but absolutely nothing wants to get hit by it. As a literal specialist in big, clunky two-handers I'm ok with throwing some respect towards a wrecking ball so I'm backing C+. It's better than Hitmontop, damn.
Wonder if CB Champ is fun. brb Maison time

 

[Steven Stone]

Ok, my opinions on this rankings so far:

All S Ranks deserve their spot, although i'm on the fence with it. We'll see later how the meta evolves

A Ranks:

• Hydreigon to A-: Blame Mega Gardevoir and Scrafty and many of the Pokemon that rose usage during June-July. Specs Hydreigon might hit like a truck, LO might exert a lot of pressure on defensive builds and Scarf catches Landorus-T off guard, but to be honest, being weak to not only once, but three of the most popular Mega Evolutions, and not even being able to beat what it's supposed to beat with safety (if you Dark Pulse a WP Aegislash that's EV to take it, you are most likely gonna get OHKOd back) makes it not worth A material imo.
• We already discussed Clefairy and Clefable, so i'm not talking about it. They should be ranked together, as their role, while being similar, have a lot of difference from the one to the another, thanks to their abilities and Clefairy being forced to run Eviolite. Nothing to say here.
• Venusaur-Mega to A-: I'm so sad i got to say this.... but Mega Venusaur it's being threatened by 2 of the most common Mega Evolutions, plus having a matchup that isn't worth against most Steel-types. It is still an amazing Mega Evolution, but to be honest, the metagame seems to hate it so much. If Mega Metagross is A- for similar reasons, then Mega Venusaur has no reason to stay in A besides being the best rain check, am i right?
• Gengar to A-: I wouldn't disagree with lower rankings, actually. Gengar has died in the metagame due to many teams just not being able to put it safely. If you put Gengar over any Pokemon on your team, your defensive stability goes down like a waterfall. Gengar hasn't shown many success without Mega recently, and i haven't seen a Gengar in weeks.
• Thundurus-T to B+: To be honest, Thundurus-T does fit the B rank description pretty nicely.

B Ranks:

• Hariyama to B-: Not what it used to be, and generally outclassed in Trick Room teams by Scrafty, due to typing issues. Hariyama, although being the strongest Fighting-type attacker in Trick Room (not counting Machamp), lacks a moveset to exploit, as you'll be using Close Combat, Fake Out and... Ice Punch/Stone Edge?. Maybe i'm misunderstanding this monster, because it does hit hard, but it doesn't provide as much utility as Scrafty does as Fake Out user, and it doesn't provide the bulk Conkeldurr provides for Trick Room teams. I still got to see a Hariyama that has Protect.
• Manectric-Mega to C, and even lower: WHAT. IS. THIS THING. EVEN. DOING HERE? VGC 2014 was Manectric's spotlight, but to be honest, there are SO many good electric types in the VGC metagame that Manectric is just a waste of a Mega slot (and it isn't like the meta loves electric types tbh). Intimidate doesn't really help it much as Kangaskhan and Landorus are taking it out anyways, and makes stuff like Milotic (which Manectric is supposed to check) dangerous for it. This thing is comparable to Mega Lopunny, although i think Lop is better anyways.

C Ranks:

• Regular Lucario to E: Is this a joke? I hope it is. Heck, even Cobalion outclasses this, and that's saying a lot. Lucario has only to its favor the Inner Focus shenanigans, but that's kind of gimmicky since it LOSES TO EVERY OTHER MON IN THE METAGAME. Even Pachirisu is better at doing Follow Me, one of the few things Lucario could have at its favor. If you're ever using Lucario, use Scizor.
• Smeargle to B-: We understimated this thing a lot. And i mean a lot. Try to avoid getting sleep and KOing it when a Clefairy or Amoonguss are keeping it safe. Worlds and Japanese Nationals taught us enough. Although, to be honest, it lacks offensive pressure, so i'm not 100% sure if it deserves it.

Well, that's it. Hope this creates some nice discussion about how stupid I am. 2015 is not over yet, and Fall is gonna teach us that right now. Take care!

 

[Mishimono]

Do you now if the Rating Battles season 12 rules are gonna stay? If so I can see Defiant Tornadus and Follow Me Blastoise rising up in usage.

 

[Ksh13]

Do you now if the Rating Battles season 12 rules are gonna stay? If so I can see Defiant Tornadus and Follow Me Blastoise rising up in usage.

It's very likely going to stay Pentagon only.

 

[tofucocoa]

made changes but like i lost the exact changes with explanations and im very mad about it so like if you have any questions about changes ask me later

 

[ProjectTitan313]

made changes but like i lost the exact changes with explanations and im very mad about it so like if you have any questions about changes ask me later

That's why you shouldn't drink while adjusting the rankings :P
Rating sucks atm, so I might go and experiment with weird shit like Gliscor or Malamar later. I have 8(?) days of work straight so might a bit.