I beieve there was a discussion a while back about taking Ubers and nerfing there stats, just as a general question if a Pokemon that OU banned was unbanned how would you feel about a nerf to its bst per say?
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Tier Shift
- Thread starter eriados
- Start date
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In RU:
58/109/112/48/48/109 ----> 68/119/122/58/58/119
Durant becomes a monster in Tier Shift; With Hustle and Wide Lens, it has the capabilities to sweep entire teams (given the chance), because it can catch a lot of dual-types off guard. Pair it up with Iron Defense and a Ground-type to cover Fire-types and you've got quite the monster here.
In RU:
58/50/145/95/105/30 -----> 68/60/155/105/115/40
Cofagrigus takes the title as the first of the Ghost-types to break 155 base Defense while Doublade beats it by getting 160 base Defense in Tier Shift. Nevertheless, a Calm Mind will quickly get its Special Defense on par with its Defense, while a Shadow Ball and Hidden Power [Fighting] will provide it with all the coverage it needs against big threats like Bisharp and Weavile for Dark-types. Will-O-Wisp will cripple most Physical attackers and sweepers while its at it too, and if combined with Hex, you've got a total powerhouse on your hands, and a big threat in this tier.
In NFE:
40/70/130/60/130/20 -----> 55/85/145/75/145/35
Tier Shift Dusclops with Eviolite is just unbelievably defensive. It's able to withstand a non-boosted Knock Off from Weavile, a +1 Knock Off from Bisharp, and 2 non-boosted Mega Launcher Dark Pulses from M-Blastoise. I have come up with an offensive Dusclops set that you may like (or at the very least find interesting to see). It's a prototype I've been working on for a little while:
Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Ice Punch
- Calm Mind
- Brick Break/Earthquake
To give Dusclops' HP a little bit of a needed boost, I decided to invest 252 in its HP, which will bring it up to 284 at Level 100. Also, I feel it has a wide(r) Physical movepool, so I decided to allocate 252 Attack EVs, which brings it up to 262 with Adamant Nature. Still pretty mediocre for a Ghost-type, but very good for a wall of this magnitude. An extra 4 SpD EVs just for that little bit of extra survival and "OOMPH!" from the Eviolite boost. Its movepool consists mainly of 3 Physical Moves and 1 Status move (depending on what you decide to put for the fourth slot, you may end up having 2 Physical Moves and 2 Status moves, idc). Shadow Sneak provides some useful priority and is Dusclops's main S.T.A.B. move, but it still doesn't beat Gale Wings Talonflame or Weavile's Ice Shard (or even Donphan's for that matter). Ice Punch is there for coverage (and the occasional Golurk, of which I have not seen (yet)), and the occasional Freezing chance which has helped me out so much in so many battles. Calm Mind will boost Dusclops's already monster-high Special Defense (which is all its going to be used for, no Special Attacks, really), and provides a good way for Dusclops to breeze past things like a couple of non-boosted Dark Pulses from the likes of Chandelure and get past Gengar. The fourth option, I'll leave it up to you: Brick Break provides Dark-type coverage (Weavile, Bisharp, Scrafty, etc.), and Earthquake is just there to get rid of threats like Heatran, and maybe even the occasional Ferrothorn could come on down, but likely chances are its going to have a Big Root attached when it leeches off of you.
One problem I've had was with Destiny Bond. I was never quite sure whether Destiny Bond would linger on for an extra turn like in some of the older games, but I figured "It was taking up an extra slot for a better move I could have. It's much better off on a faster Ghost-type," but does the lingering still work in Gen VI?
Frankly, it'd be nice if Ubers were broken up into three tiers. Some Ubers are top-tier Ubers material, unmatched in quality (Or in Mega Rayquaza's case, outright breaking the tier), while other Ubers are "merely good" by Ubers standards, and then worst of all are the Ubers whom are too good for OU but are't really Ubers material -they're too good for OU, but not by enough to be competitive with Giratina and so on.
If Ubers could be broken up into those categories, you could basically reverse Tier Shift's lower tiers approach: -5 to all stats if you're just barely Uber, -10 to all stats if you're solidly Uber, and -15 to all stats if you're
Or maybe you'd have to raise those numbers for it to really work, I dunno. -7/-14/-21?
But stat-downing Ubers intrigues me in any event.
It lasts until the user takes their turn or switches. (Failing to defrost/wake up/do anything because Fully Paralyzed/flinching/etc still counts as taking your turn)
The issue with the reduction of Ubers BSTs, is that Ubers are often over centralizing because of multiple factors. I personally wouldn't fell comfortable with letting Arceus or Kyogre in the Meta even with -20. Abilities and Movepool are a large factor in why a Pokemon becomes overcentralizing. Just look at Mega-Mom. I suppose since ubers is a tier now there is some legitimacy to this thought. I still feel individual testing is a better idea. Two candidates i see for test right now are Skymin and Genesect. Both merit discussion imo because their flaws become more prominent in TS. Both aren't very Bulky or Strong compared to the other Pokemon in the tier. And Genesect is basically required to run Scarf. Like i said before i haven't done calcs or much theorizing yet, those are just the obvious picks for a test.
Kingslayer2779 I just want to agree with the idea to introduce Skymin and Genesect in to Tier Shift. Not only do their flaws become prominent in TS but I think we can look somethat to monotype as an example (albeit, not a perfect one as each are only allowed on one type). In Monotype their flaws also become more apparent, with Shaymin-Sky not neccesarily helping its type but making it more match up based and with Genesect compounding the fire weakness held in a lot of bug teams. As a result of their flaws becoming more apparent, there was only a brief period where usage for those types increased massively due to the new toy syndrome but since then there hasn't been too big a dramatic imbalance in what people play. How I believe this relates to Tier Shift is that we will see Shaymin - Sky's godly speed tier falter a bit due to the speed increase in low tier mons (plenty of which are Ice types) either forcing it to run a Choice Scarf to outspeed those Pokemon or accept being outsped and with Genesect what I think we'll see is it flailing around due to Entei, Chandelure, Houndoom, Ninetales, Rotom-Heat and company all getting stat boosts as well. Tier Shift is a massively competetive environment and while both Skymin and Genesect are great Pokemon, I don't think either will be as good as they were with our current threat list. Conversely to this, we can expect to see plenty of both because Serene Grace and Download are both amazing abilities that can either help in the late game (late game air slash flinches are the worse) and in the early game (if you need a reminder of how powerful Scarfed Genesect's Uturn is, just remember that the threat of it was enough to force switches into Heatran, its only solid counter).
Knight of Cydonia
I COULD BE BANNED!
What I like about tier shift is I know exactly what is in the tier and what its stats are by simply using /data pokemon on showdown. Any move away from this means searching through the thread / remembering more. I've never felt there wasn't enough variety so I'm not sure that gaining a few more pokemon is worth the loss in simplicity and the trouble in adjusting their stats. Just my opinion, I may be in the minority on this and everyone else wants ubers brought down.
I agree with the above posters, a reduction in stats for Ubers seems a great idea but we need to proceed with caution, by dropping in some Ubers that aren't as broken like Skymin, Genesect or Aegislash with a stat reduction and seeing whether they overcentralize the meta or not before we drop in titans like Arceus or Primal-Groudon into the tier.
What sort of stat reduction do you guys think would make sense - (-5), (-10), or further? Imo we should start with (-10), as -5 seems too little to "unbreak" these mons, but (-10) can change a lot in terms of KOes and tanking hits that can't be mitigated by other factors.
What sort of stat reduction do you guys think would make sense - (-5), (-10), or further? Imo we should start with (-10), as -5 seems too little to "unbreak" these mons, but (-10) can change a lot in terms of KOes and tanking hits that can't be mitigated by other factors.
Well, a blanket Ubers drop would be -20 if I were making the decision. That put Arceus directly even with Mew and its clones, putting the emphasis on its Ability/movepool/typing considerations, and bringing a lot of other titans down to something more realistically OU (Kyogre ends up with the same BST as Standard Volcarona, for instance) while, again, emphasizing their access to Abilities/movepool/typing/etc over their sheer stats. (It also makes some Ubers sort of outright bad, but a blanket decrease is going to be uneven by definition, and honestly most Ubers are so good in more than just stats they'll probably remain relevant)
Not a huge fan of a blanket drop on all Ubers. That would leave pokemon like Genesect and Aegi badly off. Also E-Killer Arceus would still be hugely overcentralizing at Mew level. and Kyogre instead of Politoed in rain teams?. How bout no. And Tiering Ubers with multiple levels of stat drops would get really complicated and subjective.
Like Knights of Cydonia said, Tier Shift is great cause its so simple. You can just look at the Pokemon to see what its new stats are. Individual testing for borderline Pokemon like Genesect and Aegislash? Sure. If they are found to be healthy for the metagame drop them to OU without stat reduction. But Stat Reduction to include the whole Ubers tier would get messy and could have unpredictable effects on the metagame. Lets stick to individual tests.
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I agree with kingscrubber mostly on this one. Some mons such as the primals, megaray, some of the main legendaries, and arceus would still be overcentralizing due to still-high stats and amazing movepools and abilities.
It would probably be easier to just keep ubers out of the metagame, as even pokemon like Mega-Lucario easily overtake many pokemon in this meta, including both of the main stalling mons, Molamola (The name of its irl counterpart) and Blissey.
<3 Mega Lucario though.
Damn, you liked this quickly Kingscrubber.
It would probably be easier to just keep ubers out of the metagame, as even pokemon like Mega-Lucario easily overtake many pokemon in this meta, including both of the main stalling mons, Molamola (The name of its irl counterpart) and Blissey.
<3 Mega Lucario though.
Damn, you liked this quickly Kingscrubber.
I'm trying to find the consistency in saying "it's nice that Tier Shift is 100% consistent with no special exceptions to learn" followed by "Let's stick to testing individual Ubers rather than making a sweeping rule for Ubers".
canno
formerly The Reptile
Reminder that if we drop Ubers as part of the Tier Shift Megaray would still be banned because it's not an Uber - it's banned from Ubers.
Honestly I don't see a problem in blanket dropping Ubers with a -30 into the meta (-20 is to low imho - Arceus having Mew stats would still make it broken) Then again, I also don't see a reason as to drop Ubers into the tier outside of Ubers technically being a tier now. So I don't really have a strong opinion on that matter. At the very least, I definitely disagree with dropping only a few Ubers. It takes away from Tier Shift's simplicity - all you have to do is know what tier gets what and /data to find something. You either drop all the Ubers or drop none of them.
Honestly I don't see a problem in blanket dropping Ubers with a -30 into the meta (-20 is to low imho - Arceus having Mew stats would still make it broken) Then again, I also don't see a reason as to drop Ubers into the tier outside of Ubers technically being a tier now. So I don't really have a strong opinion on that matter. At the very least, I definitely disagree with dropping only a few Ubers. It takes away from Tier Shift's simplicity - all you have to do is know what tier gets what and /data to find something. You either drop all the Ubers or drop none of them.
While I like the minus thirty idea, the biggest opposition to this would be Deoxys-Attack's Defense stats falling to beneath zero. I feel like this could be fixed by capping the hypothetical drop to a total of one making the rule be "Ubers minus thirty except in the case of zero or below, in of which case zero and below will equal one". Of course, the idea of dropping is still being discussed so I leave my hypothetical rule here in case the dropping does occur. And as a side note, if Arceus lost thirty, its BST would be lower than Phione's which gained 15 to be base 95 all around. Just judging from that, thirty may be a good point to drop Ubers stats from.
How is everyone finding Mega-Audino?
118/141/141 defenses are crazy and Normal/Fairy is a great typing (weak to poison and steel, resists dark and bug, immune to ghost and dragon). 95 SpA isn't bad and WishTect is a pretty useful set.
As a comparison, Cress has 130/130/140 defenses, a worse typing and 8PP recovery that doesn't work as well in rain (which is pretty great).
118/141/141 defenses are crazy and Normal/Fairy is a great typing (weak to poison and steel, resists dark and bug, immune to ghost and dragon). 95 SpA isn't bad and WishTect is a pretty useful set.
As a comparison, Cress has 130/130/140 defenses, a worse typing and 8PP recovery that doesn't work as well in rain (which is pretty great).
you can't really compare cress' bulk to anything other than gira but if you're concerned about rain you can run a sun team(also a viable playstyle).
Megadoc soes have good bulk and a good typing tho. only thing it needs is a healer that cures itself.
Seriously how great is this tier??? Pretty cool battle I just had, ended up losing, never run rockslide...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-195680711
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-195680711
Here's a set that I've found to work, at least on the lower ladder (I'm not good at this game in general, so I haven't been able to get too far):
Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Return
- Focus Punch / Slack Off
It's your standard Sub/Bulk Up mon. I'm using Vigoroth for this role in particular because it's quite bulky with Eviolite and the boost from it being in the NFE (tier? what am I supposed to call this?). After a couple boosts, it's even bulkier on the physical side and can dish out powerful hits with STAB Return. Slack Off is an option over Focus Punch, the last move depends on whether you want to be able to hit Rock and Steel types for more damage or have access to reliable recovery. Unfortunately, Focus Punch doesn't usually succeed when not behind a Substitute, so it's not necessarily reliable.
Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Return
- Focus Punch / Slack Off
It's your standard Sub/Bulk Up mon. I'm using Vigoroth for this role in particular because it's quite bulky with Eviolite and the boost from it being in the NFE (tier? what am I supposed to call this?). After a couple boosts, it's even bulkier on the physical side and can dish out powerful hits with STAB Return. Slack Off is an option over Focus Punch, the last move depends on whether you want to be able to hit Rock and Steel types for more damage or have access to reliable recovery. Unfortunately, Focus Punch doesn't usually succeed when not behind a Substitute, so it's not necessarily reliable.
The council has been assembled to deal with threats to the metagame and suspect/ban them. The council insanelegend , Knight of Cydonia , Deathly ♛The King , Kingslayer2779 , and Adrian Marin . We are currently discussing a possible ban of Mega Gallade, which may happen. If it is banned it will be unbanned when it moves up in tiers on PS!. If there are any other pokemon you think worthy of a suspect, please share them
Isn't Mega Gallade currently residing in BL? How does it work if a megastone resides in a BL higher than that of the base Pokemon's tier? I.e. in the case of Gallade does it get +10 HP boost and +5 everything else boost? Or does it get enterely RU boosts? In the first case (78/170/100/70/120/115 for reference) I don't see it being much more powerful than in standard, although in the second case it is overly strong, I agree.
"He gets +5" @Deathly ♛The King said this
How does the hp stat work though? Does it's hp drop when it mega evolves?
Due to how showdown is coded megas take the hp of the base form.
In PU (that STINKS...)...
120/100/85/30/85/45 ---> 135/115/100/45/100/60
Throh in Tier Shift still can't match the caliber of HP for the Fighting-type against the likes of Hariyama (which gets 159 Base HP in Tier Shift if I'm not mistaken), but it certainly makes up in its defenses what it lacks in HP. With a combination of Bulk Up and Storm Throw (which always crits), plus Ice Punch and Bulldoze for various effects and coverage, and as an insult to injury, "Throh-ing" (her her I'm so clever) Guts and Flame Orb on this thing, and it makes Throh one of the most frustrating Fighting-types Game Freak has ever conceived.
In PU (that STINKS...)...
55/81/60/50/70/97 ---> 70/96/75/65/95/112
Raticate has never gotten ANY attention throughout the entire series, and has been known as one of the most useless most-evolved Normal-types in the series. But there are still some uses for Raticate. For instance, Guts Flame Orb Facade from this one can 2HKO the likes of Celebi, Arceus, and anything that doesn't invest in Defense. All in all, Raticate is still pretty useless, and that's a shame... The little guy needs some more love in this game. :(
In PU (that STINKS...)...
67/57/55/77/55/114 ---> 82/72/70/92/77/129
Swoobat. One of the most obscure-looking bats we've been introduced to in this series, and it can certainly pack a punch (or rather some love) in this tier. For instance, two Simple Calm Mind Air Slashes will OHKO the likes of M-Venusaur, Darkrai, and will less-than-likely 2HKO Shuckle. But just like Raticate, even in this low of a tier that isn't even considered an actual tier, this crazy-looking bat needs some more attention!
In PU...
80/50/100/100/200/50 ---> 95/65/115/115/215/65
Regice, one of the three Regis and arguably one of the best of the three ORIGINAL Regis. First off, that Sp. Def buff though... 215 Base Special Defense is monstrous. One of my favorite sets (and practically-speaking the only set that I use for Regice) is one that includes Rock Polish. Do you know what that means? I'll tell you. It means that in this tier, nothing above 448 Speed outspeeds it after this Pokemon uses one Rock Polish! And that's with no Speed-boosting nature. With a Speed-boosting nature, that threshold becomes 502. Overall, one of the greater Regis if I do say so myself, though it will get wrecked from all of its more physical brethren, it will survive a non-boosted Sunny Day Flamethrower from Mega Charizard-Y while Regice is holding an Occa Berry. Imagine how powerful this could be with a Weakness Policy...
In LC Ubers...
70/110/80/55/80/105 ---> 85/125/95/70/95/120
Scyther. Eviolite Technician Scyther with two S.T.A.B. moves (Aerial Ace and Bug Bite), Rock Smash (for coverage of Rock), and Swords Dance. Very risky Pokemon to try and run, but the payoff is incredibly high. I've KO'ed countless Pokemon in teams, both in the games and out of the games with this Pokemon alone. It's just that good in and out of this tier. Believe you me when I say this, but this is really one Bug-type to WATCH OUT FOR.
Other Metas Mobile Research Laboratory
What is this? It's a mini-project to spark discussion within the subject's thread instead of siphoning it off into a new thread somewhere else. Each week or so I'll post a new topic in a metagame or pet mod. Topics will vary from thread to thread, so make sure to check out each one to see if it's something you want to participate in. Plus, if it dies, at least there isn't an empty thread cluttering up the subforum. (intro by Eevee General)
Week 2 - Tier Shift
Topic - NFEs and Role in the Metagame (Idea from Moniker )
Viable NFEs:Topic - NFEs and Role in the Metagame (Idea from Moniker )
Help me fill in the rest!
Questions
- What are the roles of the Pokemon listed?
- What Pokemon are missing?
- In the larger context of the metagame, where do NFEs add value to a team and where do they create problems?
- What items other than Eviolite might some NFEs hold?
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lol you accidentally mentioned stabmons
but anyway ive had some succes with scarf scyther in nu and it could probably pull off a band here
but anyway ive had some succes with scarf scyther in nu and it could probably pull off a band here
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