The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

Coronis

Impressively round
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I really loved all the Kitakami Ogre Clan members. Especially challenging for me was the Rain using member - with Swift Swim Ludicolo and Basculeigon - as well as the Normal type specialist - I only had 1 Pokemon with with a Fighting move (Infernape) and despite being ~10+ levels higher it was outsped. Having these end of game Trainers with proper IVs and EV spreads was a new enjoyable challenging experience for me, especially going into each match blind. It was very refreshing to have a challenge outside of a facility/raids where your ingame team despite being generally overleveled is far from a guaranteed win.

Sadly in the case of the final secret member, though Kingambit is his ace (unlike Geeta) - he sent it in 2nd due to it having Brick Break and me using a Dark type which had no weakness to anything else on the team.
 
Technically speaking, this is wrong. While it's not obvious due to the Tera mons, each leader does have a coded ace which is what they'll use in stuff like Masters:
  • Katy: Lokix
  • Brassius: Arbolvia
  • Iono: Bellibolt
  • Kofu: Wugtrio
  • Larry: Dudunsparce
  • Ryme: Houndstone
  • Tuilip: Farigiraf
  • Grusha: Cetitan
Counter-point: That doesn't matter in the context of SV.

Let's take Kofu's Wugtrio as an example.

It has nothing to set itself apart from Veluza. Both are at the same levels. And then there's his Crabominable. A mon that is at a higher level than the rest of his team, is explicitly picked last and makes use of the regional gimmick.

Masters' picks look more like a shoddy attempt of course correction.

I don't think it's completely fair to ding SV on the Leaders not having Gen 9 mons as their highest-level team members/Tera users, since that seems to have been a very deliberate design choice.
I respectfully disagree. Some deliberate design choices are plain bad. For example, a lot of the things they did in BDSP.


While we're on the topic of SV, what did y'all think about Nemona's final team?
 
While we're on the topic of SV, what did y'all think about Nemona's final team?
Pretty sure virtually everyone has the same general opinion about it: it's okay, but it would have been nice if she'd added a couple of real powerhouses to signal that she was finally bringing in her pre-trained mons from before she started raising a new team alongside you.

Orthworm and Dudunsparce aren't bad choices as her fifth and sixth mon per se, but they're definitely strange. Movesets are pretty uninspired, particularly how she has the same Stealth Rock Lycanroc lead as Kukui did in SM.
 
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Coronis

Impressively round
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Pretty sure virtually everyone has the same general opinion about it: it's okay, but it would have been nice if she'd added a couple of real powerhouses to signal that she was finally bringing in her pre-trained mons from before she started raising a new team alongside you.

Orthworm and Dudunsparce aren't bad choices as her fifth and sixth mon per se, but they're definitely strange. Movesets are pretty uninspired, particularly how she has the same Stealth Rock Lycanroc lead as Kukui did in SM.
I do like that she’s the only one with 3 Segment Dudunsparce though, despite the fact she isn’t that interested in completing the dex or anything.
 
The Ogrepon battle is really neat.
4 phase tera battle and she can really wreck you if you don't take her down quick. Bulky enough that she can take some hits too, but not so bulky that you can't punch through certain forms if you've got the right kind of attack. The phase transitions are cool, the tera forms are cool, music's cool.

Likewise Kieran's final was a surprisingly good battle. Even with my team in the lower 80s he still put up quite a fight, was sweatin' a little!
 
They're worse than GSC when it comes to repping their region because not even ONE Leader has a Gen 9 ace.
images (7).jpeg


Turns out a lot of the options that would fit the leaders are either weaker or worse fits than what GF actually gave them. Ironically, the possible Gen 9 reps would be better as co-stars.

For example, Katy and Brassius could've easily been given Fidough and Shroodle/Grafaiai as aces.

However, while Daschbun would be very useful on Katy's team, Fidough does nothing to help her. It also doesn't learn a single Bug move (not even Pounce). Teddiursa is a lot stronger and Tera Fury Cutter is more threatening than anything Fidough can muster.
Similarly, Grafaiai would be cool for an artist like Brassius, even though he's more of a sculptor. But let's be real, Truleewoodo is too good to pass up.

Tulip, Grusha and Kofu really have no excuse, but the rest are more than salvageable. They just need some fine-tuning.
 
I'm willing to give the gen 9 leaders a pass because they all still use Gen 9 Pokemon and many of them are positioned as their "partner Pokemon". Like the fact Masters does it isn't just them "making up" for their "mistake", its present in other facets. Iono had a big fancy 2-part reveal for her partner Pokemon Bellibolt. Brusha was revealed alongside Cetitan and got artwork for it. Tulip's salon uses Espathra for its logo (can't say I'm sure why Master is going with Farigiraf, actually...). Katy's bakery is fashioned after spiders and she uses Spidops. Ryme's gym uses Greavard for its set dressing. And so on.


Yeah they don't get any preferential treatment in the game but I think that's more for the game designers just wanting to stick to the 2-4 Pokemon at thes ame level and then the "ace" gets an extra.

Basically they both wanted their gen 9 pokemon to be on brand but wanted to show off old recognizable mons changing their types to show the type change mechanic so yo ucan go "uwa! normal teddiursa...became a bug?!" Which yes is silly and could have been done with other Pokemon or done "smarter" like with Mismagius, but it is at least a decision I can see game designers going with and putting as more special than it should be. Likewise I don't think it's coincidental that all the "end" bosses use same-type tera; I think they position the type-changing as a cute gimmick and the same-type tera as the beat stick.

Which is far more than can be said for the GSC leaders who would just not use Gen 2 at all, much less as an ace, and opted for Gen 1 for....no real reason. They just picked them out and that's where they laid.
 
I'm willing to give the gen 9 leaders a pass because they all still use Gen 9 Pokemon and many of them are positioned as their "partner Pokemon". Like the fact Masters does it isn't just them "making up" for their "mistake", its present in other facets. Iono had a big fancy 2-part reveal for her partner Pokemon Bellibolt. Brusha was revealed alongside Cetitan and got artwork for it. Tulip's salon uses Espathra for its logo (can't say I'm sure why Master is going with Farigiraf, actually...). Katy's bakery is fashioned after spiders and she uses Spidops. Ryme's gym uses Greavard for its set dressing. And so on.


Yeah they don't get any preferential treatment in the game but I think that's more for the game designers just wanting to stick to the 2-4 Pokemon at thes ame level and then the "ace" gets an extra.

Basically they both wanted their gen 9 pokemon to be on brand but wanted to show off old recognizable mons changing their types to show the type change mechanic so yo ucan go "uwa! normal teddiursa...became a bug?!" Which yes is silly and could have been done with other Pokemon or done "smarter" like with Mismagius, but it is at least a decision I can see game designers going with and putting as more special than it should be. Likewise I don't think it's coincidental that all the "end" bosses use same-type tera; I think they position the type-changing as a cute gimmick and the same-type tera as the beat stick.

Which is far more than can be said for the GSC leaders who would just not use Gen 2 at all, much less as an ace, and opted for Gen 1 for....no real reason. They just picked them out and that's where they laid.


Teddiursa was actually a pretty good pick for Katy lol.

Also, while Iono and Bellibolt makes sense, Tulip not going with Espathra and Kofu with Veluza is just nonsensical.
 


Teddiursa was actually a pretty good pick for Katy lol.

Also, while Iono and Bellibolt makes sense, Tulip not going with Espathra and Kofu with Veluza is just nonsensical.
Yeah I don't really know why Tulip is getting Farigiraf in Masters. At least with Kofu the "Vaultin' Veluza" is just a localization thing and maybe wanting someone to show off the weird mimic...convergents....clones...whatevers since who knows when Carmine gets added and no one uses Toedscruel.

Maybe they want her to have the defensive battle style? Maybe they'll change it before release.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Yeah I don't really know why Tulip is getting Farigiraf in Masters.
Wait huh? I have heard nothing about her coming to that game any time soon and I follow datamine discord chats and such pretty closely to see the cool costumes despite not playing it myself. Did something slip by me?
 
Palmer not getting a mention (as far as I can see) is a crime. All of his Silver team have garbage movesets and EV spreads.

View attachment 553200

Also the fact that he only takes 20 battles to reach is embarrassing. At least it's a relatively easy way to farm BP?

PtHGSS improved them a fair amount though none of his team are really being used to their full potential.

View attachment 553204

Amusingly both of Anabel's teams are pretty garbage too, so that's both Gen III and IV where the leader of the Frontier Brains sucks.
Tbh when I was 10 playing Diamond for the first time, the low quality of Palmer's first team made the Battle Tower accessible enough for me to actually want to keep playing. Obviously it's an extremely suboptimal team (my in-game Empoleon could virtually win on its own), but the whole vibe of the Gen 4 facilities seems to be based around smoothing out the difficulty a little and making BP a little more accessible so you can buy the items you need to put together more competent teams (which you will almost definitely still need if you want to get a 49-win streak).

I got Emerald a few years later and eventually got all Gold Symbols there, but if the Emerald Battle Tower had been my first experience with Frontier Brains as a young kid (with minimal knowledge of strategy/breeding/etc) I think I would've found it way too frustrating and unrewarding and given up.
 

Coronis

Impressively round
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I'm willing to give the gen 9 leaders a pass because they all still use Gen 9 Pokemon and many of them are positioned as their "partner Pokemon". Like the fact Masters does it isn't just them "making up" for their "mistake", its present in other facets. Iono had a big fancy 2-part reveal for her partner Pokemon Bellibolt. Brusha was revealed alongside Cetitan and got artwork for it. Tulip's salon uses Espathra for its logo (can't say I'm sure why Master is going with Farigiraf, actually...). Katy's bakery is fashioned after spiders and she uses Spidops. Ryme's gym uses Greavard for its set dressing. And so on.


Yeah they don't get any preferential treatment in the game but I think that's more for the game designers just wanting to stick to the 2-4 Pokemon at thes ame level and then the "ace" gets an extra.

Basically they both wanted their gen 9 pokemon to be on brand but wanted to show off old recognizable mons changing their types to show the type change mechanic so yo ucan go "uwa! normal teddiursa...became a bug?!" Which yes is silly and could have been done with other Pokemon or done "smarter" like with Mismagius, but it is at least a decision I can see game designers going with and putting as more special than it should be. Likewise I don't think it's coincidental that all the "end" bosses use same-type tera; I think they position the type-changing as a cute gimmick and the same-type tera as the beat stick.

Which is far more than can be said for the GSC leaders who would just not use Gen 2 at all, much less as an ace, and opted for Gen 1 for....no real reason. They just picked them out and that's where they laid.
How dare you
 
Which is far more than can be said for the GSC leaders who would just not use Gen 2 at all, much less as an ace, and opted for Gen 1 for....no real reason. They just picked them out and that's where they laid.
Ahem.
In the Cryptodex’s latest post, Aaron points out that the Johto roster was most likely in more-or-less constant flux right up to the end of development; as a consequence, they gave very few trainers the new Pokémon for ease of playtesting, as said new Pokémon could be drastically changed or outright replaced at any point. I’m inclined to believe this, and additionally believe this is the reason for the Johto League’s infamous teams, with GF being unable to fix them due to rushing GS out the door. To give just one example, I feel the reason Morty doesn’t have Misdreavus on his team is because the latter didn’t really exist until fairly late into ‘99, and even then was likely being retooled/had an uncertain future up until release.

tl;dr hindsight is 20/20
Tho as you yourself said, this isn’t the reason, but it is a reason.
 
Ahem.

Tho as you yourself said, this isn’t the reason, but it is a reason.
The more I think about it the less I agree with the idea as being a "big" reason. Certainly there's a number of Pokemon that were getting overhauled to the end, but...

Falkner, for example. Hoothoot was locked down for literal years, and even by 97 Noctowl was something on deck. The details were being ironed out, but the concept was still pretty firm. But Falkner uses neither of them despite this; hoothoot in particular would have been EXTREMELY easy to sub in for Pidgey even if they felt Noctowl (which still wound up on a few teams iirc) was a no-go.
Pineco was a very late in the game decision so it, and Forretress, being out because of that makes sense...but Ledyba & Spinarak who despite some tweaks still being made were basically throw away fodder that could have easily been on Bugsy team instead of 2 cocoons. Not like they're very strong Pokemon either so the conceit of "the REAL boss is Scyther!" would still hold.
Heracross also seemed to be around for a while and fairly ironed out, but didn't land on either Chuck or Bruno's (who did at least get Hitmontop) team.
Slowking was one of the OGs of Gen 2 and still got the boot for a second Xatu on Will's team.


Meanwhile Sneasel was a Pokemon that had been through the wringer in terms of design basically right up to release but still landed on Silver's team through a large chunk of the game. Piloswine didn't exist at all until later on and almost had an evolution at one point, but still managed to be Pryce's ace*. Fortress was a very late addition that had to go through a couple design overhauls but still landed on Koga's team as one of the penultimate bosses of the first part of the game.


*Honestly typing all this out, I think we as a community might slightly overexaggerate this issue with the Leaders particularly. 4 of them still have gen 2 aces and a 5th has a Pokemon that at least evolves into one. All the E4 have gen 2 members and 3 of them have them as their ace. And heck the Kanto leaders also have 5 of them with gen 2 Pokemon. Like they definitely could have used more (lord knows there's plenty of normal types Whitney could have used & Bugsy just did not need to be using 2 cocoons c'mon now) and the randos around the world should have used more, but the way we talk about it you'd think everyone was Morty. Really the gen 2 leaders just have other issues like number of Pokemon (why Chuck have 2 pokemon??) or poor decisions on double ups for their placements (why Pryce have dewgong AND seal? why didnt Jasmine at least evolve the other Magnemite? Why bugsy) or level (but that's All of GSC so...)
 
Tbh when I was 10 playing Diamond for the first time, the low quality of Palmer's first team made the Battle Tower accessible enough for me to actually want to keep playing. Obviously it's an extremely suboptimal team (my in-game Empoleon could virtually win on its own), but the whole vibe of the Gen 4 facilities seems to be based around smoothing out the difficulty a little and making BP a little more accessible so you can buy the items you need to put together more competent teams (which you will almost definitely still need if you want to get a 49-win streak).

I got Emerald a few years later and eventually got all Gold Symbols there, but if the Emerald Battle Tower had been my first experience with Frontier Brains as a young kid (with minimal knowledge of strategy/breeding/etc) I think I would've found it way too frustrating and unrewarding and given up.
I agree. One of the reasons I prefer the Gen 4 Frontier to the Gen 3 one is because the Silver prints/symbols are more accessible in the former versus the latter. I think the Gen 4 facilities are well designed to allow for in-game teams to be able to obtain the Silver prints with some difficulty, while you would probably have to breed/EV train to obtain the Golds.

Meanwhile Gen 3 requires a pretty insane set of circumstances to even obtain the Silver symbols with an in-game team. I've done it before, but I personally am not in favor of being gate kept to such an extent from obtaining those post-game achievements.

I actually think Palmer is one of, if not, the best Frontier Brain battles in my opinion. His PtHGSS Silver print team is well designed to be difficult but not arduous to defeat. As the overall boss of the Gen 4 Frontier his team fits the bill quite nicely as the perfect capstone to the Frontier.

Meanwhile, Spenser is easily the worst Frontier Brain battle in my opinion. The Battle Palace is just a joke of a facility frankly that I've never enjoyed playing through.
 
I agree. One of the reasons I prefer the Gen 4 Frontier to the Gen 3 one is because the Silver prints/symbols are more accessible in the former versus the latter. I think the Gen 4 facilities are well designed to allow for in-game teams to be able to obtain the Silver prints with some difficulty, while you would probably have to breed/EV train to obtain the Golds.

Meanwhile Gen 3 requires a pretty insane set of circumstances to even obtain the Silver symbols with an in-game team. I've done it before, but I personally am not in favor of being gate kept to such an extent from obtaining those post-game achievements.

I actually think Palmer is one of, if not, the best Frontier Brain battles in my opinion. His PtHGSS Silver print team is well designed to be difficult but not arduous to defeat. As the overall boss of the Gen 4 Frontier his team fits the bill quite nicely as the perfect capstone to the Frontier.

Meanwhile, Spenser is easily the worst Frontier Brain battle in my opinion. The Battle Palace is just a joke of a facility frankly that I've never enjoyed playing through.
On balance, I think I like the Emerald Frontier more, but that's mostly because I like the 'survival' facilities a lot. The Pike and Pyramid form a neat little duo where the Pike feels a lot more accessible and then you 'graduate' to the more gruelling Pyramid, although I'm sure this was completely unintentional. Elements of this type of battle facility appear in Gen 4's Battle Castle and Battle Arcade, but they don't have the same sense of investigation/exploration.

In general, it seems pretty clear that the developers didn't have a strong handle on the relative difficulty of each challenge in Emerald. Like, the Battle Dome and Battle Pike are way way easier than the rest imo, even without knowing all the details of how they work, mainly because the streak requirements for the Symbols aren't very high. The Gen 4 Frontier, by contrast, feels like a much more evenly balanced challenge.
 
I think my thing with defining a Gym Leader's Ace is what their strongest Pokemon is with no * attached to it, as is the case for Teras in Gen 9. Of the 8 Gym Leaders, the only one who's strongest non-Tera member isn't a Gen 9 Mon are level ties between one and an old Pokemon (and this is ignoring stuff like Iono where they make a point that Bellibolt is her Image Mon). It's not like other media is a stranger to trainers whose "partner" or signature Pokemon is a separate one from their battle trump card (See Ash's Pikachu vs his regional big wigs like Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Greninja, etc.)

As for my own response, I don't know if anyone's mentioned the AI professor battles yet, but I'll throw them out there, particularly for Sada in Scarlet.

The Paradox Pokemon make for interesting final opponents
  • You've only seen some of them (Flutter/Jugulis, Scream Tail/Bundle, and Moon/Valiant if you go look for their cave can be wild spawns before post-game) ignoring clock quirks, and even the encounter only ones change up quite a bit from their basis (such as Bundle not dying if you look at it funny). A lot of them also change playstyle dramatically from their base forms (Slither Wing, Sandy Shocks, Iron Valiant) or improve a key aspect to a min-max level (Flutter Mane and Iron Hands).
  • The SE advice from the prior meetings muddies this, but their typings are unfamiliar and in some cases almost feel designed to mess with someone playing as if they were their base forms (Slither Wing is neutral to Volc's 4x Rock weakness, Flutter Mane resists and hits back on Dark, Brute Bonnet blanks Psychic, Hands neutral to Flying, etc) without totally disabling all weaknesses if you have multiple options prepared. Turo is a bit easier on this front because several types can hit 3 of his team members for SE damage (Ground, Rock, Psychic).
  • The levels are enough above the respective paths' cap fights that you won't outpace them fighting all 3 to get here (plus some wild encounters heading down), but also low enough that if you go straight there while being at parity with those levels (late 50's/low 60's), you can still handle the fights with some understanding or using items. I like this level discrepancy potential because it feeds into the possessed-AI dialogue about its prowess and calculations, which you can beat with unorthodox techniques in the face of both that and the (narrative-wise) much stronger Paradox Pokemon
  • Storywise it makes for a nice conclusion to the thread with the Professor, and is a good story/gameplay integration by having you fight Paradoxes spit out by the time machine, given the latter is the ultimate instigator of the conflict and problem to solve, without having to strictly fight the machine to allow the second phase to happen.
  • The staging and context of the fight is also fitting for a Final Story Boss level fight, while feeling like something the player has to be the one to confront. Past games I've had issue with the non-League Finale feeling cheapened by scripting (required to catch the XY mascot or the Zacian/Zamazenta carry for Eternatus) or like the player really doesn't need/shouldn't be the one solving this outside Pokemon tradition (Lillie and Lusamine is the climax of the Aether conflict but Lillie isn't a battler, or again see Zacian/Zamazenta helping you but not Leon). Your role in stopping the Time Machine is informed long term by being who the AI Professor monitored and entrusted the Raidon to, as well as the short-term ask when you're the one who makes it to the lab. The best I think the story did prior to this was Ghetsis, and for similar reason with the Legendary Dragon making you N's opposite and a Hero of note to the Region.
  • Finally, in terms of story, I'm a sucker for "real final boss followed by story final boss" set-ups, so this makes a very good lean-in to the Paradise Protection Protocol, since as such a difficult battle, your team would probably be exhausted in terms of story even if your Pokeballs weren't shut off, keeping the choice for your Dragon to fight plausible even if you dislike that plot reveal. I give the exhaustion a pass because the game always has characters point out that they heal your team before a battle (gameplay wise to keep it from being an ambush in those cases), something they have neither time nor the thought to do since the second round surprises even the AI Professor.
 
yknow, this thread makes me wonder if a thread about improving boss character teams could be a good idea. I'm kinda tempted to make my own teams for some bosses (for both good and bad bosses, and both for in-game and for post game or a theoretical nat-dex sort of thing) after reading through this thread.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
yknow, this thread makes me wonder if a thread about improving boss character teams could be a good idea. I'm kinda tempted to make my own teams for some bosses (for both good and bad bosses, and both for in-game and for post game or a theoretical nat-dex sort of thing) after reading through this thread.
Probably counts too much as wishlisting, it's the sort of thing that'd be better suited to a blog post or a pitch for a romhack.

That said, this made me think about all the characters who have a nominal ace on their team, but also have a strong association with another species. Usually the ace Pokemon is the one that the character's design evokes, or which is noted to be their first/strongest Pokemon, and the rest of the team is just sort of incidental but there are quite a few exceptions to this:
  • Lysandre's Mega, and highest-levelled Pokemon, is Gyarados and it's associated with him a lot, but his Pyroar is more linked to him, being his oldest Pokemon in the anime and sharing a visual cue. The event which distributed most of the team leaders' signature mons gave out a Pyroar for Lysandre
  • Giovanni, of course, is heavily associated with Persian (and Mewtwo) in various canons but Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Rhyhorn, Rhydon, Rhyperior, and even Kangaskhan have all been his ace at one point
  • Erika's ace has never seemed particularly fixed: Victreebel and Vileplume are both her highest-levelled mon in RBYFRLG, but she swaps Vileplume for Bellossom in GSCHGSS, and then Tangrowth is her ace in rematches. In B2W2, her ace is Vileplume
  • Blaine's does too; sometimes it's Arcanine, sometimes Rapidash, it's Magmortar in his HGSS rematches. In the anime it seems to be Magmar
  • Morty's scarf resembles a Misdreavus, but he notably doesn't have one in any of his main game teams
  • Whitney's ace is Miltank but she's all about Clefairy; even her gym is based on one
  • Alder's ace is Volcarona, but Bouffalant is also associated with him a lot, to the point that it's his only Pokemon in the anime
  • Fantina has a lot of visual resemblance to Drifblim and it's her ace in the anime and manga, but in the games her ace is either Gengar or Mismagius
  • Marlon's backstory is that he learned to swim and jump out of the water by practicing with the Mantine that lived by his childhood home and it's his ace in the anime, but it's not on his initial team at all in B2W2 except for in Challenge Mode and Jellicent is his ace instead. It's a particularly notable choice because Jellicent is removed from Shauntal's team in response. Presumably they felt that it wasn't fitting for the final gym leader to not have a Pokemon from their native region as their ace (Juan says hi)

Interestingly, the Adventures manga seems to attempt to give all the Hoenn Frontier Brains a signature mon, as nearly all of them have a Pokemon that spends a lot of time out of its Pokeball. Five of the Brains do seem to have a signature in the games (as they have one Pokemon which appears in both their Silver and Gold teams) but these aren't always the same as the ones the manga uses:
  • Tucker is always seen with his Salamence, but Swampert is his apparent ace in the games
  • Spenser is always seen with his Crobat, but Slaking is his ace in Emerald
  • Greta is always seen with her Umbreon, which is also her ace in Emerald
  • Anabel is always accompanied by Raikou, despite Snorlax being her ace in Emerald (I can see why this change was made though, they wanted to show Raikou off)
  • Lucy's signature is Seviper in both the games and manga (there was no avoiding this one tbf, the link is too strong)
As for Noland and Brandon - the latter is constantly shown juggling his Pokeballs that contain the Regi trio (which makes sense as he doesn't have the bird trio in that canon) while Noland, like in the games, doesn't appear to have a fixed team. However, at the conclusion of the Emerald chapter he uses a Mawile, and is seen to still be using it later on during the ORAS arc. Conversely none of the Gen IV Frontier Brains seem to have a signature: Darach, Palmer, and Dahlia all use two distinct teams of three without repeating species, and Argenta/Thorton both have unfixed teams.
 

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