The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

[ceal]

I don't know what Riolu accomplishes unless you grind it to Lucario before Cheren. It's not that defensive, its most available kill move is Counter, and Cheren likes to set up.
Like I'm sure it can do stuff, but I feel people kind of overstate Riolu being a counter.

You'd only really need to grind it to Force Palm at 15 and Riolu would destroy Cheren but grinding to that level with Riolu only knowing non-STAB Quick Attack is pretty nightmarish, especially when Audino don't even spawn yet. Counter Riolu is ok against Cheren but you have to get lucky on which turn he Tackles and hope he doesn't just ohko you outright.

The games are really obsessed with FWG as the example for type matchups, and...I get it, it's simple, immediately intuitive, and is going to be the first type matchup new players run into, so it's worth it to talk about. But they seem really adverse to using anything else to train players early on, even if would obviously make sense.

I mentioned this in my LP thread (sorry for shameless plug) but of all the games to force a FWG tutorial into the one in which you have two starters that complete the FWG core with you and would naturally teach you about type matchups definitely did not need it. I think Castersvarog is onto something, if the game let you access Route 3 and Wellspring Cave before fighting the gym leaders (probably with some NPC blocking off the southern part of the route to keep you from getting to Nacrene) that would expand the potential answers to the brothers exponentially and make the monkeys less mandatory.

 

[Castersvarog]

You'd only really need to grind it to Force Palm at 15 and Riolu would destroy Cheren but grinding to that level with Riolu only knowing non-STAB Quick Attack is pretty nightmarish, especially when Audino don't even spawn yet. Counter Riolu is ok against Cheren but you have to get lucky on which turn he Tackles and hope he doesn't just ohko you outright.


I mentioned this in my LP thread (sorry for shameless plug) but of all the games to force a FWG tutorial into the one in which you have two starters that complete the FWG core with you and would naturally teach you about type matchups definitely did not need it. I think Castersvarog is onto something, if the game let you access Route 3 and Wellspring Cave before fighting the gym leaders (probably with some NPC blocking off the southern part of the route to keep you from getting to Nacrene) that would expand the potential answers to the brothers exponentially and make the monkeys less mandatory.

It would even show off the whole type triangle better to newer players, showing that some types may be super effective against a type, but they can’t resist those same types. Granted, they would have to rework the gym trainers if they do that adding in stuff like Sewaddle, Darumaka and Tympole, maybe even have the gym trainers change Mons by what starter you went with.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Heck the game has two perfect options for that very thing. Pidove and Blitzle are both found immediately after the first gym and are perfect against Cilan and Cress. Chille is the hardest to find a second option for but that’s just because both Roggenrolla and Drillbur are exclusive to caves.

Hmm... question for everyone: If instead of the Elemental Monkeys, what if the Trainer in the Dreamyard offered to give you a Pidove for Pansage, Roggenrola for Pansear, and Blitzle for Panpour? Would that be alright, or would you still be saying that's forcing you into a Type Advantage tutorial?

What if, instead of being given the Elemental Monkey, instead the NPC only mentioned the monkeys can be caught in the Dreamyard, told you the Elemental you should catch if you want an easier time in the Gym, and you had to go looking through tall grass until you encountered the correct Monkey (though have the option of capturing the other two if you like). Would that be alright, even though it pretty much ends in the same result?

What if we take the above scenario but instead of being the Elemental Monkeys it was Pidove, Roggenrola, and Blitzle? Does it not being an Elemental Monkey and not directly given to you really change things?

 

[R_N]

The problem with the triplets is always going to be that it's hyper forced. Their AI is set to spam Work Up and OHKO you if you dont bring the Monkey, even. If you just swap out the Pokemon on offer without changing the rest it's still going to wind up in this thread.

To make it not be hated you need:
1. to not have them go berserk if you dont have the solution
2. don't just give it to you
3. have multiple options
4. likely accompanied by some design tweaks to the surrounding areas and maybe the pokemon themselves

Like make Dreamyard a little more overgrown and such. Put in the monkeys as encounters alongside other options like Pidove, Tympole, Blitzle, Sewaddle or whoever else (several of these could also be put on Routes 1 & 2 without any issue, of course). At that point it's jsut like the other gyms in the game: you can power through the triplets with neutral coverage while being aware they're gonna mess up your starter, or you can go to a near by route or area and find a few counters.

But they didn't do that because they didn't want that for gym 1. They wanted the triplets to be a hard-counter required, forced encounter, by design from top to bottom.

 

[Yung Dramps]

To really get to the heart of what's sorta already been said: The entire intro of BW1 up to and including Striaton is the most railroaded section of any mainline Pokemon game. I don't mean in the Alola "muh cutscenes" way, I mean in the sense that virtually every playthrough of this stretch will go the exact same way, partially by design and partially not. You will solo with your starter up until reaching the first gym, at which point you get your free monkey and sweep it no questions asked. What few routes beyond some variation of this exist are explicitly suboptimal. You get four other options, half of which (Patrat and Purrloin) are unusably bad, so really it's just Lillipup and Munna. Even the route to Badge 1 in DP isn't this one-note: There's actually multiple ways past Roark even if you chose Chimchar! And Roark sucks!

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Patrat actually isn't that bad early on, in terms of the long run for the whole playthrough Watchog has less potential and ends up falling off in power whereas Lillipup evolves twice over the story to become the competent Stoutland who remains viable right to the end of the game, but Patrat itself is frankly okay in the early game and isn't significantly worse than Lillipup: it hits only slightly less hard and is slightly less fast and bulky, but comparatively Patrat and Lillipup at the point of Striaton perform very similarly.

For the record Munna isn't even available until after Striaton. So it's just Patrat, Lillipup, and Purrloin. And yeah, Purrloin on the other hand sucks.

Since Route 1 in the story encourages you to catch at least one Pokemon before going to Accumula Town, that means a new player hypothetically will have at least one of Patrat or Lillipup, if not possibly both for whatever reason.

That means against Striaton, under the intended progression a player will always have three Pokemon in their possession: their starter, Patrat or Lillipup caught on Route 1, and the gift elemental monkey from the Dreamyard. And in line with the fact that Striaton is an explicit tutorial on type matchups, this means each of the three represents a different type of matchup against the Striaton Gym Leader you face: disadvantaged (starter), completely neutral (Patrat or Lillipup), and advantaged (monkey). Together the three members against the Gym Leader will very explicitly communicate the concept of type matchups: your starter is disadvantaged and will have their STAB resisted and be hit super effectively, Patrat or Lillipup have a neutral matchup with their STAB Tackle having power but hitting neutrally while they get hit neutrally in return, and then your gift monkey will resist their STAB and hit them super effectively in return. This is basically a tutorial designed to teach the concept of type interaction in every single possible manner, and is essentially not meant to be a challenge in any way so much as it's designed to be a tutorial to teach a concept to a new player in a very explicit and railroaded way.

I've said it before but Lenora ends up being the true "first boss" of BW1, with her starring a common early type (Normal) and at that point, your available options expand to become as wide as the typical pool of options you have before the first Gym, with a select few advantageous options being either Pignite (if you chose Tepig), Timburr, Roggenrola, or Throh/Sawk, not to mention a free Rock Smash TM, and this time it's on you to devise a winning strategy of your own (and there are plenty of ways to do so). And she's actually a true threat with a Watchog and Herdier who are both deadly for that point and can hit hard with Retaliate or Take Down and their immense raw power coming off of high stats compared to the options you will have by that point. In a sense BW1 has a much more dragged out gameplay structure and you're not meant to have your first true "boss fight" until Lenora, everything before that is railroaded tutorial.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I don't really get the hate for BW1's admittedly limited first badge setup. Sure, Gen 1 has Nidoran and Mankey outside of starters. Gen 2 has the unreliable Geodude / Onix (rock throw is lol with 80 accuracy, and in GSC they have Mud-Slap) though Mareep is there, Gen 3 has theoretically the most counters to a first gym out there but virtually all save Shroomish and starters suck horribly, Gen IV has Machop and Budew and Psyduck and starters. So really, most average out to about two non-starter options. More than Gen V yes but like...that's only the first hour or so of the game, it's not the end of the world to me.

I'll take a duller than normal first gym in exchange for actually usable Bug type Pokemon, which virtually every previous generation sorely lacked.

Also Patrat isn't unusable, if anything, it's the pre-Return phase where you're awkwardly relying on Retalitate that's bad, not so much Patrat itself. Yes, Lillipup is better, but this has been a thing since Spearow outclassed Pidgey in the first games; there are simply objectively better options.

If we want to talk unusably bad, that's Pansear pre-Flame Burst lmao

 

[R_N]

I don't really get the hate for BW1's admittedly limited first badge setup. Sure, Gen 1 has Nidoran and Mankey outside of starters. Gen 2 has the unreliable Geodude / Onix (rock throw is lol with 80 accuracy, and in GSC they have Mud-Slap) though Mareep is there, Gen 3 has theoretically the most counters to a first gym out there but virtually all save Shroomish and starters suck horribly, Gen IV has Machop and Budew and Psyduck and starters. So really, most average out to about two non-starter options. More than Gen V yes but like...that's only the first hour or so of the game, it's not the end of the world to me.

I'll take a duller than normal first gym in exchange for actually usable Bug type Pokemon, which virtually every previous generation sorely lacked.

Also Patrat isn't unusable, if anything, it's the pre-Return phase where you're awkwardly relying on Retalitate that's bad, not so much Patrat itself. Yes, Lillipup is better, but this has been a thing since Spearow outclassed Pidgey in the first games; there are simply objectively better options.

If we want to talk unusably bad, that's Pansear pre-Flame Burst lmao

The differences are that Brock & Falkner didn't limit your options so severely and didn't have their AI* set to stomp you unless you had The Solution (which is literally just given to you). So it comes off more egregious and that's what gets under people's craw because it didn't have to be that way (shown by: every other gym, in the series).



*Brock will spam Full Heals in RB (not sure about Yellow), though, so no poison for you. Which is really funny since I don't think the other leaders do that (either sticking with potions or using x items depending on the trainer) and most people would probably never bother with poison moves (or Twinneedle) on the Rocks. Maybe Poison Powder but even then.

 

[Karxrida]

*Brock will spam Full Heals in RB (not sure about Yellow), though, so no poison for you. Which is really funny since I don't think the other leaders do that (either sticking with potions or using x items depending on the trainer) and most people would probably never bother with poison moves (or Twinneedle) on the Rocks. Maybe Poison Powder but even then.

Considering his strategy involves using Bide this is surprisingly thoughtful on Game Freak's part. Though I feel like the game shouldn't punish you for outsmarting it.

 

[Coronis]

The differences are that Brock & Falkner didn't limit your options so severely and didn't have their AI* set to stomp you unless you had The Solution (which is literally just given to you). So it comes off more egregious and that's what gets under people's craw because it didn't have to be that way (shown by: every other gym, in the series).



*Brock will spam Full Heals in RB (not sure about Yellow), though, so no poison for you. Which is really funny since I don't think the other leaders do that (either sticking with potions or using x items depending on the trainer) and most people would probably never bother with poison moves (or Twinneedle) on the Rocks. Maybe Poison Powder but even then.

Never knew this.

 

[khlaylav]

I don't like Gen 3. I don't even remotely like Gen 3. And yet, begrudgingly, I must praise Wallace as a champion. He may be pound for pound the best monotype champion in the series. Let's go through his team:

• Wailord is a weird and not ideal start, but I kinda like it. It sets up the rain, it's got Water Spout to key off of its massive HP stat, Blizzard for coverage on Grass types and Double-Edge to round out the set.
• Tentacruel hits Grass types hard with STAB (though physical) Sludge Bomb. Or it can show off Ice Beam for the same purpose. It's also got Toxic for poisoning purposes, Hydro Pump as a general purpose hard hitting STAB move and in general does well against special attacking mons.
• Ludicolo takes neutral damage from Grass, Electric and Ice types and cackles maniacally as it sets up Double Team and uses Giga Drain and Leech Seed to stay healthy. Then it's got Surf for a guaranteed hit.
• Whiscash laughs in the face of Electric types and drills them with Earthquake. Amnesia helps defend against the special attacking Grass types, Surf as a general purpose STAB move and Hyper Beam for... fun, presumably.
• Dragon. Dancing. Gyarados. Hyper Beam, Surf and Earthquake round out the set. Does it stink that it can't hit physically with its best move? Sure. But again: Dragon. Dancing. GYARADOS.
• Finally, Milotic. Toxic and Recover to stall out anything that dares attack it, and Surf and Ice Beam to hit back. Pure evil.

Every mon is intricately thought out and has a purpose. It's impressive. I still don't like Gen 3, but it's impressive.

 

[Unova Pokemon Trainer]

I'd say the best was Cynthia. She was a tough challenge to beat, and really got the best out of her team. Her team is well balanced, and the battle gets tougher as it progresses.

I don't know who I'd choose for the worst, though.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Niche pick, but the Jupiter/Mars fight at Spear Pillar really kind of sucks. It's the only double battle with an NPC partner (as far as I recall) that can be a twelve-on-six fight, so the odds are pretty heavily in the player's favour: even so, they could have made it a tougher fight. Both foes use Bronzor and Golbat, which both really should have evolved by this stage. Or in Golbat's case, just been something else entirely since Cyrus uses one. All the Galactic commanders use Bronzor, but Saturn has a Kadabra as his second so I feel like Mars and Jupiter should have had different seconds too. There's all sorts of alternate picks they could have had: Noctowl, Clefable, Gengar, Girafarig, Mismagius, even Mr Mime.

Their aces are fairly challenging (Purugly most of all) but the others aren't particularly. It's funny because I did actually find this fight very tough when I did my recent Pearl challenge, but that's literally the only time that's been the case. It's usually a breeze.

 

[DreamPrince]

Niche pick, but the Jupiter/Mars fight at Spear Pillar really kind of sucks. It's the only double battle with an NPC partner (as far as I recall) that can be a twelve-on-six fight, so the odds are pretty heavily in the player's favour: even so, they could have made it a tougher fight. Both foes use Bronzor and Golbat, which both really should have evolved by this stage. Or in Golbat's case, just been something else entirely since Cyrus uses one. All the Galactic commanders use Bronzor, but Saturn has a Kadabra as his second so I feel like Mars and Jupiter should have had different seconds too. There's all sorts of alternate picks they could have had: Noctowl, Clefable, Gengar, Girafarig, Mismagius, even Mr Mime.

Their aces are fairly challenging (Purugly most of all) but the others aren't particularly. It's funny because I did actually find this fight very tough when I did my recent Pearl challenge, but that's literally the only time that's been the case. It's usually a breeze.

Platinum had another fight with Flint/Volkner multi battle with the same circumstances when trying to gain access to the frontier.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Platinum had another fight with Flint/Volkner multi battle with the same circumstances when trying to gain access to the frontier.

Knew there was another one I'd forgotten. Oh, god. I think I'd blanked it out intentionally because that one is even WORSE - as impressive as the species they use are on paper, the entire team is Earthquake bait. Awful.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

Two of my favorite boss fights are from the latest generations.

1. The battle against Eternatus in S/S. Fighting alongside Hop and the wolves in what was essentially a Max Raid battle was amazing. I really like the atmosphere of this battle, it was a perfect way to end the story and I think it was very balanced in terms of difficulty, which was nice.

2. The final battle in S/S, with your Koraidon/Miraidon fighting against the other one. This battle was amazing and even if you always auto-win (or so I think?) they still made it feel difficult, which was great. Getting the ability to Terastalize and use a Dragon-type Tera Blast to end the battle was fantastic. It also made me think of similar situations in other games, where you get a powerful new move or ability right at the end, allowing you to beat the final boss. I like it a lot.

Least favorite? Probably Ultra Necrozma in US/UM. This was difficult but for all the wrong reasons. This battle just had too many things going against me since I was totally unprepared for it. I never asked for a super-difficult boss in the main story of Pokémon games and this really frustrated me the first time I played UM since I just wanted to get the end of the game and start on the post-game stuff instead of being stuck at this battle.

 

[Karxrida]

The final fight with Giovanni in Yellow is surprisingly decent.

• OHKO moves are jank in Gen I and require you be faster than the target. Thankfully, the speedy Dugtrio is the only thing with Fissure. Huge improvement over the Red and Blue version of this fight only giving the move to the slowass Rhydon (which also has Horn Drill because uhhhhhhh). Dig and Earthquake are redundant (could have run Slash, which was on the moveset for Dug in the original fight) but they're both strong so w/e. Sand Attack can potentially lead to hax.
• Persian has autocrit STAB Slash. It doesn't really need anything else, but Double Team can be infuriating.
• The Nidos both take advantage of their absurd movepools to run Thunder for Water-types expecting a completely free sweep and Flying-types trying to dodge seismic activity. Double Kick is kind of pointless (and possibly a detriment due to how the AI works), but A for effort?
• Rhydon has both of its STABs, 'nuff said. The original version of the fight only gave it Stomp as a damaging move, so this one is an actual threat. The other two moves are kind of worthless but they're filer anyway.

This isn't much, but compared to other Gym Leaders in Kanto the dude is a passable threat with a decent team.

 

[IcyMan28]

So I just did a replay of Heart Gold and honestly I'd like to nominate like...the entirety of the gym leaders and Elite 4. Their rosters are not only underleveled but fail to showcase Johto pokemon in nearly every case, even despite the more limited dex. The region has the additional problem of many of its finds being hidden away/difficult to find to the point that you may not even know about them until beating the game (see: Marill, Yanma, etc). And this is without the movepool limitations that plagued Gen 2. So I've listed below the problems with them and how I'd fix each.

Falkner

Falker is a decent starting gym leader, carrying the usual two pokemon. The problem is Johto doesn't really have too many weak fliers and the ones it does have are very clearly more related to their primary type thematically (Hoppip line, Butterfree, etc). This limits him to basically the Pidgey line, Hoothoot line, and Natu line. I'd fix him as follows

Natu is of comparable strength to Pidgey albeit a bit frailer. Peck / Leer / Night Shade gets the point across with the latter only doing 9 damage per hit given the level. In Gen2 I would have given him Noctowl as it is actually weaker than Pidgeotto, but I felt that in Gen4 it would be far too difficult to take down given its bulk and the fact that his TM is Roost in this game, not to mention Hypnosis. Pidgeotto can stay along with its set of Tackle / Gust / Roost.

Bugsy

Bugsy went from pathetic to borderline overpowered given the change from Fury Cutter being his TM to UTurn on a Scyther. The difference in power between his cocoons and ace is absurd, and there are plenty of weaker options for him by the time you reach him. Here's what I would have done.

Bugsy now has 2 Johto bugs, one more offensive and one more defensive.

Yanma retains Scyther's typing but is far weaker on the physical side given its base 65 Atk compared to 110, but by Lv17 it would carry UTurn / Detect / Sonicboom / Double Team which is pretty powerful given the lower HP stats and the fact that Yanma can still outrun anything you might have with its base 95 speed and speed boost. It would be his lead and use U-turn first thing much like his Scyther does now.

In place of the cocoons, I went with Pineco as it is slow and a single pokemon as opposed to two. It is also a great opportunity to showcase Headbutt and makes sense thematically as it can be found right next door in the Ilex Forest. At level 15, it would have Protect / Take Down / Bug Bite in its arsenal. No Selfdestruct because that feels way too overpowered.

Whitney

Whitney is notoriously one of the most difficult gym leaders in the series given Miltank's bulk, lack of weaknesses, speed, and Rollout. I don't think she needs much of a change, but now that Clefairy is a pure Fairy type I think she could use another normal pokemon to round out her team, and she is the third leader which traditionally have 3 pokemon at least.

I get that Gen2 was going for the cutesy theme, but Teddiursa I think is a natural fit for Whitney. Small, cute, normal-type, and featuring it in a gym leader's team gives it some exposure as it is otherwise only found on Route 45 and thus easy to overlook. I'd keep it Lv17 like Clefairy with a simple set of Attract / Fury Swipes / Faint Attack which gives STAB, features the gym TM, and covers ghost-types.

Clefairy is her gym's theme and has become somewhat of an iconic pokemon for her (featured in the anime even), so I kept is as is. If we for some reason revisit Johto, its Fairy typing also gives her a bit of an out against her gym's only type weakness in Fighting.

Miltank is a legend in and of itself, I wouldn't change anything about it.

Morty

I get that there are only so many type specialists left available since Kanto is in the game as well, but Morty really got short-changed on his options. There were more ghosts added by Gen 4 but between Kanto and Johto there are only 4 options, so he's got to use them all.

Morty's line-up is the same, but I replaced his Lv23 Haunter with Misdreavus to showcase the only Johto ghost. She is significantly bulkier than it and would carry a moveset of Psybeam / Mean Look / Confuse Ray / Shadow Ball.

I would also change his Haunter's Curse attack to Night Shade so it has an actual attack.

Chuck

This is canonically the 5th gym leader so I'll treat him as such. This position typically carries 3-4 pokemon looking at the other games so I adjusted him accordingly. Unfortunately he is one of 2 gym leaders in Johto to share a specialty type with the Elite 4/champion, so his options are more limited given that the E4 should have a more challenging and diverse pokemon group. Honestly they should have made him a ground-type specialist given what happens with Giovanni.

I added Machoke here because it's strong, sturdy, and it gives him a third pokemon. I would keep it Lv29 with a moveset of Focus Punch / Revenge / Vital Throw / Seismic Toss, and the Guts ability. It actually synergizes quite well with his TM - if you try to avoid hitting it for fear of powering up Revenge, you risk activating Guts or getting hit with a whopper Focus Punch.

Primeape is fast and frail, letting it potentially clean whatever Machoke managed to weaken.

For his ace, I gave him Bruno's Hitmontop as it is one of 2 fighting types added in the region. It stays Lv31 with Focus Punch / Counter / Rapid Spin / Triple Kick.

Jasmine

The 6th gym leader, Jasmine actually has a few decent options. Sadly, many of Johto's steels are locked behind trade evolutions or just not featured at all. There aren't too many steel-type attacks featured in the game either, so I wanted to rectify that as well. Starting here, I think 4 pokemon is most appropriate for the gym leaders so her roster is made accordingly.

She is the 6th gym leader, lets give her some strong pokemon. I merged her 2 Magnemite into a single Magneton, which carries a stronger bite and answers the water-types that otherwise resist steel. Magnemite are caught in the Route immediately to the north and its electric typing is also a nod to her close relationship to the lighthouse Ampharos. It remains Lv30, with a moveset of Magnet Bomb / Thunderbolt / Thunder Wave / Sonicboom.

Scizor has been a fan favorite since its introduction, and placing it in Jasmine's roster makes up for removing Scyther from Bugsy's. I would place it at Lv32 with the Technician ability and its natural level-up moveset of Slash / Metal Claw / Fury Cutter / Agility.

Skarmory is often referenced as one of those pokemon that the casual player mistakes as being a Gen3 addition rather than Gen2. Like Teddiursa, it is another version exclusive found only on Route 45 with a low encounter rate, which means the player can and often does go the entire game without encountering one. Since Skarmory doesn't hit too hard, I'd place it at Lv34 so it has the opportunity to showcase Steel Wing, but the rest of its moves are fairly manageable as Steel Wing / Spikes / Metal Sound / Air Cutter.

Finally, her Steelix. Well-known as her ace and carries huge bulk, as well as the inspiration for her Iron Tail TM reward. I'd keep it set to Lv35 but adjust its moveset to Iron Tail / Screech / Sandstorm / Dig over Rock throw in the last slot so that she theoretically has some recourse against fire-types by using its STAB.

Pryce

Gen2 gave us 3 new Ice-type lines - Smoochum (who is a baby pokemon and unsuitable for the 7th gym leader), Sneasel (who was oddly restricted to Route 28/Mt. Silver except for Crystal, where it can be more appropriately found in the Ice Path), and the Swinub line.

Sneasel takes the place of Seel at Lv30. A set of Hail / Icy Wind / Faint Attack / Fury Swipes gives it some attack power while it uses its speed to set up weather and slow you down, unlike Seel which is otherwise too slow to accomplish this.

Dewgong stays, but I would reduce it to Lv31 given that I added a pokemon. Instead of Ice Shard, I would give it Aqua Jet which it should know by this level, as it helps Pryce out against Fire / Rock types and gives Dewgong access to its primary STAB while retaining priority. So its final setup is Lv31 Rest / Sleep Talk / Aqua Jet / Aurora Beam.

Jynx is an addition from the nearby Ice Path and a reference to Smoochum's inclusion in the Johto dex, which would be reflected by its retention of Confusion in her movepool. She is a fast special attacker who I would also keep on Lv31 with a set of Confusion / Ice Punch / Mean Look / Fake Tears.

Finally, Piloswine. His original ace, I figured I'd keep it here because I didn't want him to get a Sinnoh pokemon as his ace in a Johto remake. I wouldn't change its moveset because it honestly doesn't really have much better options.

Clair

Clair is the second gym leader to share a pokemon league specialty type. Thankfully, she is already somewhat difficult due to the sudden jump in level and the relative dearth of options for dealing with the Dragon-type at this point in the game, so few if any changes are required.

Claire's Lv38 Gyarados is for some reason almost entirely a special attacker. I'd update its moveset while keeping Dragon Rage, which is a somewhat signature attack for it and makes sense in a Dragon gym. With Rain Dance, which it learns at Lv38, it also sets up Kingdra somewhat. Dragon Rage / Rain Dance / Aqua Tail / Ice Fang.

Both Claire's Dragonair are Lv38 with identical movesets, except one has Fire Blast and the other Aqua Tail. I'd change this somewhat. The first I'd keep level 38 but adjust its moveset to Agility / Fire Blast / Thunder / Dragon Pulse, keeping it primarily a special attacker with Thunder to take advantage of Gyarados' Rain Dance. If it comes out at a point where the rain is gone, it has Fire Blast at full power.

Her second Dragonair I'd raise to Lv39 and slightly adjust its moveset to Thunder Wave / Aqua Tail / Slam / Dragon Rush, making it a purely physical attacker to distinguish it from the other.

Her Kingdra is Lv41 with Smokescreen / Hydro Pump / Hyper Beam / Dragon Pulse. I'd make no changes as it is already quite the challenge and Hydro Pump is potentially boosted by Gyarados' Rain Dance after the changes I made.

---------------------------------------------------
Finally, the Elite 4. They were also significantly underpowered and lack diverse options (Koga has an Ariados for example and Will I think has a single Johto Psychic). In fact, there are only 6 Johto species out of 26 total pokemon in the league, less than 25%. Being that they represent both Kanto and Johto, I think it's ok for them to feature pokemon from both regions but my hope was to make the split more even.

Will

The first of the E4, and the one with the most area for improvement. See below.

Xatu is the first pokemon you fight in the Elite 4, and I kept this because it mirrors Natu being the first pokemon you fight among the Johto league gym leaders in my edited version. I would amend its moveset to Wish / Confuse Ray / Uturn / Psychic, as it synergizes better with Confuse ray and Uturn.

I like Exeggutor for Will as a callback to Psychic's utter dominance in Gen1. I would amend its movepool to include Grass STAB and Sleep Powder > Hypnosis as I am removing Jynx from his roster and a more accurate sleep move feels appropriate. Exeggutor also suffers from significantly lower special defense than physical, so I changed it to have Light Screen with Reflect elsewhere on the team. Final set is Light Screen / Sleep Powder / Wood Hammer / Psychic.

Given that Jynx went to Pryce and that Karen has an Umbreon, Espeon felt like a natural fit. It is the archetypical fast and hard-hitting special attacker Psychic-type with a set of Psychic / Shadow Ball / Swift / Reflect.

Girafarig is another Psychic pokemon introduced in Johto, and it offers the team an answer to ghost attacks given its half Normal typing. I'd make it a physical attacker with Agility / Zen Headbutt / Double Hit / Assurance.

Last is Slowking, who replaces Slowbro and takes the place of Xatu #2 as his ace. I'd give it Psychic / Nasty Plot / Water Pulse / Power Gem.

Koga

Koga is actually alright, but I feel Ariados is too weak a choice for him given its paltry bulk and inability to pull off the Spider Web + Baton Pass combo its meant to given its low speed. I made a few changes to him.

I think there is only one other trainer in the game with Qwilfish, but I gave it to Koga here to take the place of Forretress and serve as a stronger lead. With Aqua Tail / Poison Jab / Explosion / Toxic Spikes, it gets the ball rolling with poisonous hazards. It can then attack or explode to make progress and deals with ground-types to an extent.

Gligar was once considered a fully-evolved pokemon and thus replaces Ariados. Its set is Earthquake / Swords Dance / Toxic / Baton Pass. This lets it spread status, covers steel types that might otherwise be immune, and allows it to stat pass attack to another member of the team. It being a poisonous scorpion fits thematically as the Gligar line has always been a bit of an honorary poison type flavor wise.

Muk is a staple. I left its moveset of Toxic / Screech / Minimize / Gunk shot unchanged as with black sludge, evasion, and toxic damage accumulating from the other two it can become problematic if you don't deal with it quickly.

Venomoth offers Koga a special attacker, but it has no offensive STAB attacks which is pitiful. I would change its ability to Tinted Lens and give it a set of Signal Beam / Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder / Psybeam. This gives Koga an alternative status affliction and gives his team some much-needed offensive firepower.

Crobat is a fitting ace, swooping in with high speed to pick up the pieces. I would amend its set to Fly / Double Team / Cross Poison / Quick Attack, which lets it snipe off your weakened team or offers a few additional turns for poison to take its toll between evasion and critical hits.

Bruno

The other Kanto holdover. His fighters are actually pretty good so I made changes to his other pokemon. Onix is a farce and Jasmine already has Steelix so I got rid of it altogether.

Hitmontop was given to Chuck as his ace, so Hitmonlee leads here as a quick and strong fighter. I'd largely keep its moves as they are for a final set of Blaze Kick / High Jump Kick / Foresight / Focus Energy.

Hitmonchan is next, and thanks to the elemental punches offers some type coverage options. Since Hitmonlee has Blaze Kick, however, I'd replace that with actual fighting coverage. Ice Punch / Thunderpunch / Bullet Punch / Sky Uppercut, and all of its moves are still boosted by Iron Fist which it already carries as a nice touch.

Poliwrath replaces Onix and is the only dual-typed Kanto fighter, offering much needed type diversity. I'd give it a set of Dynamicpunch / Waterfall / Hypnosis / Mind Reader. It is a decently bulky mon with good typing, so it can afford to run less accurate moves or set up with Mind Reader. Dynamicpunch also serves as a fun callback to Gen2, where it was Chuck's prize TM.

Heracross is the other new fighting-type introduced in Johto, so why not showcase it here in lieu of Hitmontop? Its moveset would offer some counterplay against Psychic- and Ghost-types with Bug Bite / Night Slash / Reversal / Close Combat.

Machamp is his ace and remains as such, but now comes with the No Guard ability. The only change I'd make is Bulk Up > Foresight so his team has some way to boost, for a final set of Bulk Up / Cross Chop / Rock Slide / Revenge.

Karen

The game's first Dark specialist and she is fairly well-rounded. Still, she could use some improvement.

Umbreon is her first pokemon - bulky and difficult to take down. It is, however, fairly weak, so I would just make a small change to it with a final moveset of Curse / Confuse Ray / Double Team / Payback. It can quickly get out of hand if left to its own devices much like Koga's Muk.

I let Karen keep her Vileplume as she now has every Dark-type available except Sneasel. It offers her an important answer to Fighting and Bug, and I like Stun Spore for it to help out the rest of her team which is average to slow speed. I'd give it Stun Spore / Moonlight / Petal Dance / Sludge Bomb and call it a day.

Murkrow is her weakest team member as Honchkrow is unavailable pre-E4. I'd give it Night Shade so it can do fixed damage to bulkier targets and change its breeding move from Whirlwind to actual decent flying STAB. So its final set ends up being Feint Attack / Sucker Punch / Night Shade / Drill Peck.

Houndoom is her former ace which I would put in Gengar's place at Lv45. It can retain its moveset with Thunder Fang over Crunch for added coverage. Nasty Plot / Dark Pulse / Flamethrower / Thunder Fang is its final set.

Tyranitar is her final pokemon and would be her new ace and the E4's final pokemon before the champion, much like Lance's Dragonite in the preceding gen. At the time of HGSS's release, Tyranitar was the only pseudo to not be featured in the pokemon league and its entire line is otherwise not encountered until the end of the game. To this day, Tyranitar is the only regional pseudo not to be featured in a key fight of its home region. Its addition here rectifies this problem, with a moveset of Crunch / Stone Edge / Earthquake / Hyper Beam.

Lance

Lance is the champion and also has the fewest options available as he already uses all the dragon types bar Kingdra, who was left to Clair. That said, he is the champion, so I think upping his difficulty a notch is reasonable enough.

Lance's Gyarados is iconic and has surpassed Dragonite as his most known pokemon/ace. It does not need many changes but I would give it Dragon Dance over Dragon Pulse to further distinguish it from Clair's. Final set is Waterfall / Ice Fang / Flail / Dragon Dance. Flail actually works well with this to get in one last big hit before going down thanks to the speed boost from Dragon Dance.

Aerodactyl has extremely high speed and good attack, so I would just allow it to keep its coverage as is with a set of Rock Slide / Aerial Ace / Crunch / Thunder Fang.

Charizard is as close to a fire-breathing dragon as Lance can get, but is squandered and given largely physical attacks. I'd update its set to Flamethrower / Air Slash / Dragon Pulse / Smokescreen.

I replaced one of Lance's Dragonite with a Kingdra because there truly are so few other options. It also removes on of Lance's Ice weaknesses and gives him at least one pokemon that isn't weak to Rock. This Kingdra would replace the Blizzard Dragonite, with a final set of Hydro Pump / Blizzard / Dragon Pulse / Agility.

His second Dragonite is unchanged with a moveset of Dragon Rush / Thunder / Thunder Wave / Hyper Beam.

Finally, there is his ace Dragonite and strongest pokemon. I would make a simple adjustment to Giga Impact over Hyper Beam for this one as it distinguishes it further from the prior one. Final set is Outrage / Fire Blast / Safeguard / Giga Impact.

 

[Ernesto]

Gen2 gave us 3 new Ice-type lines - Smoochum (who is a baby pokemon and unsuitable for the 7th gym leader), Sneasel (who was oddly restricted to Route 28/Mt. Silver except for Crystal, where it can be more appropriately found in the Ice Path), and the Swinub line.

Smh I won't stand and watch the erasure of the best Ice-type in Johto.

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wait I meant

Anyway I agree with most of your changes and had even thought some of those myself, although I chose to have Chuck keep Poliwrath as his ace but add Heracross since Bruno made more sense to have the three Hitmon (Hitmen?). Edit: Onix I kept as legacy and because Flying resist I guess. Ngl that Jasmine team looks very scary.
Also I thought Lance might get away with keeping the three Dragonite but making them even more specialized (as in, running Choice items or setup + berry) but he's a pretty dumb boss already so it'd be too much .–.

Sidenote

As an aside, I once tried to come up with a different order so that Falkner could have a better team as a fifth/sixth gym. I figured you could start with Jasmine if she was a Rock-type trainer before the discovery of Steels, then take a ferry or something to Cianwood for Chuck before moving to the east and then I stopped because I realized I was making Hoenn in Johto lmao.

 

[IcyMan28]

Smh I won't stand and watch the erasure of the best Ice-type in Johto.

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View attachment 545387 wait I meant View attachment 545386

Completely forgot about Delibird lol. That said, it's a jokemon without any place on Pryce's team - maybe it could feature among one of the gym trainers instead.

Anyway I agree with most of your changes and had even thought some of those myself, although I chose to have Chuck keep Poliwrath as his ace but add Heracross since Bruno made more sense to have the three Hitmon (Hitmen?). Edit: Onix I kept as legacy and because Flying resist I guess. Ngl that Jasmine team looks very scary.

I did struggle a bit between where to place Heracross and Hitmontop, but ultimately settled the way I did based on the options their movepools afford them at their respective levels. Poliwrath I moved to Bruno for the sake of type diversity which I think is more important in the E4 than in a gym leader.

Also I thought Lance might get away with keeping the three Dragonite but making them even more specialized (as in, running Choice items or setup + berry) but he's a pretty dumb boss already so it'd be too much .–.

Yeah the other thing is I had to leave room for improvement for their rematch teams, so I didn't want to make them too overpowered. Giving them items and whatnot felt way too strong for the average player - I was aiming to strike a good balance.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The Paldean League is BY FAR the worst League I've ever seen.

There's so much wrong here, I don't know how to start.

It's bad enough that the leaders are generally pathetic, but it gets even worse when both the E4 and the so-called Top Champion are wack too.

They're worse than GSC when it comes to repping their region because not even ONE Leader has a Gen 9 ace, they're incredibly weak across the board, and their teams are awfully forgettable. They're also a very poor showcase of Terastallization as a mechanic.
Also, as usual, there's no rhyme, reason, or any shred of strategic value in their team compositions. This is most noticeable with Geeta, who's so bad, that people started making theories talking about how she throws the match against the player.

Honestly, barring like, 3 or 4 things, all those teams need to be scrapped. Even XY wasn't this bad.


Edit: Titan Tatsugiri also deserves a Dishonorable Mention for not giving Dondozo its Commander boosts, which defeats the whole point of it being the Titan. What a waste of its gimmick.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

The Paldean League is BY FAR the worst League I've ever seen.

There's so much wrong here, I don't know how to start.

It's bad enough that the leaders are generally pathetic, but it gets even worse when both the E4 and the so-called Top Champion are wack too.

They're worse than GSC when it comes to repping their region because not even ONE Leader has a Gen 9 ace, they're incredibly weak across the board, and their teams are awfully forgettable. They're also a very poor showcase of Terastallization as a mechanic.
Also, as usual, there's no rhyme, reason, or any shred of strategic value in their team compositions. This is most noticeable with Geeta, who's so bad, that people started making theories talking about how she throws the match against the player.

Honestly, barring like, 3 or 4 things, all those teams need to be scrapped. Even XY wasn't this bad.


Edit: Titan Tatsugiri also deserves a Dishonorable Mention for not giving Dondozo its Commander boosts, which defeats the whole point of it being the Titan. What a waste of its gimmick.

Technically speaking, this is wrong. While it's not obvious due to the Tera mons, each leader does have a coded ace which is what they'll use in stuff like Masters:

• Katy: Lokix
• Brassius: Arbolvia
• Iono: Bellibolt
• Kofu: Wugtrio
• Larry: Dudunsparce
• Ryme: Houndstone
• Tuilip: Farigiraf
• Grusha: Cetitan

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I don't think it's completely fair to ding SV on the Leaders not having Gen 9 mons as their highest-level team members/Tera users, since that seems to have been a very deliberate design choice. However, I think it exposes an issue with Terastallisation as an in-game mechanic; namely, that it obscures a part of the identity of a Pokemon. I think something important is lost if the first time you encounter a shiny new Pokemon it gets (literally) outshined by its use of the generational mechanic (Dynamax had tons of problems but Gigantamax forms at least did a solid job of showcasing Gen 8 Pokemon like Alcremie and Duralodon)

This is all fine once you're familiar with a mon and using it or facing it in a more strategic setting (raids, VGC, etc), but when it came to the main story I think the devs got stuck between wanting to showcase the new mons on their own merits and wanting to showcase Terastallisation, with it not really being possible to do both perfectly.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Palmer not getting a mention (as far as I can see) is a crime. All of his Silver team have garbage movesets and EV spreads.

Also the fact that he only takes 20 battles to reach is embarrassing. At least it's a relatively easy way to farm BP?

PtHGSS improved them a fair amount though none of his team are really being used to their full potential.

Amusingly both of Anabel's teams are pretty garbage too, so that's both Gen III and IV where the leader of the Frontier Brains sucks.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Palmer not getting a mention (as far as I can see) is a crime. All of his Silver team have garbage movesets and EV spreads.

View attachment 553200

Also the fact that he only takes 20 battles to reach is embarrassing. At least it's a relatively easy way to farm BP?

PtHGSS improved them a fair amount though none of his team are really being used to their full potential.

View attachment 553204

Amusingly both of Anabel's teams are pretty garbage too, so that's both Gen III and IV where the leader of the Frontier Brains sucks.

Whoever thought Special Attacking Rhyperior was a good idea deserves to be shamed by their family.