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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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You know what I hope this iron valiant doesn't have? a way to put me to sleep. I would sure hate being put to sleep before getting swept by a +2 swords dance Iron Valiant.
Actually I do want to touch on something here, and it's unpredictability. Darkrai is going to be fairly limited in how it proceeds. It'll do really well, sure, but outside of knock off you can predict what it'll do 90% of the time. Iron Valiant, on the other hand, a pokemon within the Smogon OU Metagame right now, has like what? 6 different sample sets it can run? It's far more unpredictable.
Not just a bad defensive typing but bulk that really doesn't help it at all.
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 35-42 (12.1 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 71-84 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
it's a resist, sure, but do you really want to defeat a kingambit in the end game with stats like that?
Especially a kingambit with access to tera, who can mindgame you; although as brought up before kingambit does this to literally everything.
It is actually true though, that it's not unique from set up sweepers in that it folds to grassy glide.
only the last 294 pages from before post #7340
OMG WHAT? Hey guys, it's official, Setup Sweepers are no longer vailable cause they can get hit by moves. CM Valiant? Shit's ass. Sub+ID Zama? Man gtfo here that thing is garbage. Sub+NP Hydreigon? Sub Moth? Both sound like doodoo water to me. What? Pivoting into your offensive threats? Good positioning? Coming into defensive walls so you can Sub on them? Nah you're tripping.
Also maaan if only there was some sort of mechanic that could help a mon turn its weaknesses into resistances, like lmao could you imagine if a Dark-type suddenly turned into a Poison-type to resist moves such as U-turn, Moonblast, CC and Grassy Glide? Shit would be crazyyyy.
I kinda see it like sneasler; sure, there was SOME variance in whether it was running acro vs night slash vs gunk shot and theoretically there was defensive counterplay for each, all 3 were just too much.
I have no idea what you are talking about??? I said it resists and is neutral to the 2 most common priority moves in the tier, which is a lot better than a lot of the setup sweepers, while also having better bulk.
How does that go for Darkrai over 1 out of every 3 times
it has the potential, so it should be tested. simple as that imo
i don't really want darkrai tested until the current issues in the meta are fixed, but there are reasonable and well articulated posts advocating for darkrai in ou. just like most of this thread you've gotta sift through the shit to find the good stuff.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...sneasler-banned.3727806/page-296#post-9875992
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-sneasler-banned.3727806/page-43#post-9788775
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-sneasler-banned.3727806/page-31#post-9783729
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...sneasler-banned.3727806/page-296#post-9875992
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-sneasler-banned.3727806/page-43#post-9788775
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-sneasler-banned.3727806/page-31#post-9783729
ah my bad, sorry about that, you're right on that end
i love gross over simplifications
my point that I was trying to (and apparently failed) to get across is that it wouldn't be the guaranteed set up turn that was being made out to be, but sure. Every single sub mon is complete dogshit. But sure, lets say that I switch out. If only there was a #3 used mon that has access to infiltrator and outspeeds darkrai with a
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 288-340 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tera Poison however does bring up an interesting point, as it may do the job of sub but better. we can only guess on how it goes if the council decides to drop darkrai in 10 days
bro i never even played platinum
although you are right I hate thinking, it's what my opponents use to beat me most of the time
I think most people consider it broken, but only because of it's crazy stats and movepool.
You seem to instantly correlate Darkrai's viability to Hypnosis, probably due to the Pokemon's flavor-relations to sleep as well as how it used to viably run Dark Void. However nowadays, hypnosis is just a subpar move to run on it, there aren't any walls that darkrai would want to put to sleep that it wouldn't rather just run a coverage option for. Psyshock is by far better and covers more matchups that Darkrai could typically struggle with.
TW: mentions of stall
i’ve been using stall recently with solid success, mainly because i want to scrap up some extra elo before my fellas volcarona and gliscor get unbanned (oh and the indigo disk too i guess)
and also because it will be completely and utterly unusable post disk, we’ll be lucky if BALANCE is viable after the offensive power creep that could to be airdropped onto the tier
i also play hyper offense sometimes
i’ve been using stall recently with solid success, mainly because i want to scrap up some extra elo before my fellas volcarona and gliscor get unbanned (oh and the indigo disk too i guess)
and also because it will be completely and utterly unusable post disk, we’ll be lucky if BALANCE is viable after the offensive power creep that could to be airdropped onto the tier
i also play hyper offense sometimes
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Whimsicott does not learn any sleep moves, it learns the other 75% accuracy status inducing powder moves but sleep powder is specifically excluded
I think the issue with dragapult is it has to make sure darkrai isnt tera fairy or isnt running sucker punch (which yeah would hurt its sweeping) to kill chipped down dragapult.
I Think people are looking at 1 or 2 sets and thinking its fine when the mon can just lure certain things, that could make another set want to swap out.
I Think people are looking at 1 or 2 sets and thinking its fine when the mon can just lure certain things, that could make another set want to swap out.
i mean, it did have grasswhistle a while ago. i know this because people used it alongside gravity in doubles, which fucked things up so bad that they had to make an entire clause about it. so not entirely the best example they could give—even though doubles doesn't map perfectly to singles, fast sleep has proven to be a problem even when it isn't entirely reliable
Just U-Turn if in fear
the issue is you still get hit by sucker punch
0 Atk Black Glasses Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 210-248 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you have to keep dragapult healthy and not at sucker punch level incase he has it, which will be hard if you arent running hdb, which then draco doesnt even kill
252 SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 193-228 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Power Creep has pushed forward enough where something like Darkrai isn’t that much of a stretch to drop. Sleep is mitigated through Clause and all Spore users being too slow/frail to establish much momentum, Darkrai is no exception. Perfect scenario, you still are 4MSS’d because you want STAB, Ice Beam for Grounds, Sludge for Fairies, TBolt for bulky Waters, Blast for Steels, Sub for longevity, NPlot for breaking, Sucker for Pult, etc.
Dark Void avoided all of this because of the compression of chip, free turns from sleep, and inadvertently breaking checks through bullshit sleep turns. Hypnosis has none of the leverage with that garbage accuracy, you risk way too much because one miss is ending up with you at 5/6. You have to stop Tusk, Gambit, any assortment of Tera users; the first two are already an overwhelming pressure for a breaker to account for. It’s more pressure in the tier, but it holds precedent from prior drops in Speed Boost Blaze. Power Creep catches up to mons sometimes, and Darkrai is more justified with a tangible nerf in Dark Void.
Dark Void avoided all of this because of the compression of chip, free turns from sleep, and inadvertently breaking checks through bullshit sleep turns. Hypnosis has none of the leverage with that garbage accuracy, you risk way too much because one miss is ending up with you at 5/6. You have to stop Tusk, Gambit, any assortment of Tera users; the first two are already an overwhelming pressure for a breaker to account for. It’s more pressure in the tier, but it holds precedent from prior drops in Speed Boost Blaze. Power Creep catches up to mons sometimes, and Darkrai is more justified with a tangible nerf in Dark Void.
Why would you ever run sucker punch darkrai in a meta where kingambit exists. I swear y’all are making up random ass “techs” to prove that darkrai is broken, and end up embarrassing yourselves. Focus on what makes darkrai actually threatening, not on a stab sucker punch that barely 2hkos on a super effective hit. Like holy hell you guys.
Although I don't believe darkrai would be too overpowered for the OU tier, I don't believe we should drop it. Simply put, what the fuck would we get out of dropping it? What pokemon would it check/counter? And to people saying that it's because it's shit in ubers, OU comes first and foremost, no questions asked. Sure, I love all the other tiers and play them just as much as OU, but any OU decisions will flow on to other tiers if they are universal bans. The DLC2 metagame will already be chaotic as it is, we don't need another speedy wallbreaker in the tier. Wait until after the most egregious mons are banned, then look at it.
Also, I believe that darkrai will have two mains sets for play. The nasty plot + 3 attack sets for more offensive teams and the sub + hypnosis set for stall teams. The first can outspeed most other mons and ko them in 1-2 hits, while having decent bulk to avoid being killed by priority, and the second will be able to get multiple turns to get a sleep by getting behind a sub, along with good bulk, to chip any stall mon, even blisssey. Remember that 1/8 chip is the same as salt cure's damage against non water/steel mons. Stall's slow playstyle allows this to be done multiple times, maybe with wish support. This set I whipped up in 1 minute could be decent.
Darkrai @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Substitute
- Hypnosis
- Knock Off
- Dark Pulse
Also, I believe that darkrai will have two mains sets for play. The nasty plot + 3 attack sets for more offensive teams and the sub + hypnosis set for stall teams. The first can outspeed most other mons and ko them in 1-2 hits, while having decent bulk to avoid being killed by priority, and the second will be able to get multiple turns to get a sleep by getting behind a sub, along with good bulk, to chip any stall mon, even blisssey. Remember that 1/8 chip is the same as salt cure's damage against non water/steel mons. Stall's slow playstyle allows this to be done multiple times, maybe with wish support. This set I whipped up in 1 minute could be decent.
Darkrai @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Substitute
- Hypnosis
- Knock Off
- Dark Pulse
Also, you can basically calc the amount of damage that bad dreams does by clicking the salt cure button on the calculator, due to it doing the same amount of damage. Just remember that it doesn't last forever like salt cure.
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 79-94 (12.1 - 14.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Salt Cure/Bad dreams
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 79-94 (12.1 - 14.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Salt Cure/Bad dreams
I get that this is meant to be a bit, but of all of darkrai's viable coverage options (ice beam, sludge bomb, psyshock, tera blast, and focus blast) fb is the only one that's even less than 100% accurate, let alone 80%. Hypnosis is ass though I'll give you that, I'm not even confident that it's good on val I won't lie.
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Idk if this is referring to me but
I literally never called it a worse Valiant here. I just said a large portion of the arguments people are throwing around SPECIFICALLY to talk about banning Darkrai, (coverage, Trick, Knock Off, Hypnosis access, speed tier, hard to OHKO with priority, setup capabilities), are all applicable to Valiant, a Pokémon that has been in Scarlet and Violet since launch and never banned. The only thing I’m trying to say here is that the notion that Darkrai isn’t even worth testing based on the qualities it has is imo a flawed conclusion when it’ll really come down to nuanced metagame interactions to see whether or not it’s actually broken, not just looking at it on paper. I don’t think it’s a worse Valiant at all and I can totally see a world in which it needs to stay banned; its sheer potential for set versatility alone may make it too hard to handle consistently between Trick sets, Knock Off 3 attacks boots, Nasty Plot 3 attacks, sub Nasty Plot, etc. Conversely however, I feel like every single one of these sets has notable individual weaknesses that hold all of them back, (any two attack sets usually have to hog Tera to use Tera Blast Fairy as the optimal second coverage move, Life Orb NP sets get worn down with hazards & recoil to the point where they’re much easier to revenge, boots & Trick Scarf lack a lot of oomf, etc). Darkrai is a Pokémon that needs an honest review and a nuanced discussion instead of an outright dismissal. And certainly no bad-faith arguments about what the people supporting testing it are ACTUALLY saying.
That's why Sing Clefable is currently tearing up the meta
Neither of these lanky twinks will ever be Him
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