Walls of calcs should be disparaged, but what are Darkrai's KO margins with Bad Dreams chip? Based on Napoli Burn's calc alone, you have a chance to one-shot 252/252+ Ting-Lu with +2 Focus Blast after two turns of BD damage, though of course stuff can wake after 1 turn. I have to imagine that chip is somewhat unique in a post-Boots world. Who else gets typeless chip like that, Gargarnacl?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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Man if only we had a mon that has hypnosis, as well as a stronger fairy stab that doesn't commit your tera slot. Who's also basically the fastest pokemon in the meta, and has a much better movepool as well as being able to run mixed sets.
We can only dream :(
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Way better (even if still a bit gimmicky) for multiple reasons, mainly because of Booster Energy's Speed boost. even if Darkrai theoretically lands that Hypnosis and gets to set up, there are so many options to RK it in this meta like Booster Energy Speed mons, Dragapult, the occasional Scarfer, or strong priority from the likes of Scizor, Tera Normal DNite, etc. While Valiant is also weak to prio, it gets to enjoy outspeeding nearly every possible speed booster, outpaces Pult, and also offers a lot more utility to a team than Darkrai ever could with its typing (also can employ Teras such as Steel to help its sweep and protect it from priority; Darkrai could also do that too, but Valiant is gonna do it better because it's way harder to revenge kill reliably).
If you find Iron Valiant broken, I can respect you finding Darkrai broken, but honestly there are very few arguments you can make in favor of keeping Darkrai banned that can’t also be applied to Valiant. Valiant has similarly impeccable coverage, setup potential on the physical & special side as opposed to just specially, also has Hypnosis, is even faster after Booster Energy, and even has more physical bulk than Darkrai and a 4x dark resist to make it even LESS priority vulnerable. Like…
i mean, that's just a good argument for banning valiant, if anything. "this controversial ou mon is significantly better than this unviable ubers mon with a somewhat similar role" shouldn't be an excuse to drop the latter but to test the former
While I agree with the statement that we shouldn't drop pokemon just to check a mon, valiant isn't broken. Sure it can outspeed any fucking thing that is not both fast and has a choice scarf, while being able to run any move it wants (you want to run tera water liquidation, why not?), but it does have to wait for the right opportunity to outspeed everything and is decently frail. Plus, that speed means it outspeeds other potential sweepers, giving it some potential defensive utility. Definitely should be considered for a ban once ghold + gambit + other problematic mons in DLC2, but is alright right now.
I don’t think hypnosis is strictly worse on Darkrai than Iron Valiant. Bad Dreams chip allows Hypnosis Darkrai to brute force its way through bulky special tanks like Blissey and Unaware Clodsire that it would normally have no business beating. Not that these mons are common right now, but they do constitute a traditional specially defensive counterplay on builds like stall that is quashed by hypnosis Darkrai.
It could be argued that Hypnosis is simply not useful/reliable enough in most situations to be worth slotting on, but Darkrai already has most of the sweeping coverage it needs in Dark Pulse + Tera Fairy Blast should it opt for that set. This opens up a free moveslot for a cheese option if the user decides to forgo extra coverage. Another possible set along these lines is Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Tera Blast, Knock Off, which can cripple common switchins in early-mid game with item removal and still sweep late game.
It could be argued that Hypnosis is simply not useful/reliable enough in most situations to be worth slotting on, but Darkrai already has most of the sweeping coverage it needs in Dark Pulse + Tera Fairy Blast should it opt for that set. This opens up a free moveslot for a cheese option if the user decides to forgo extra coverage. Another possible set along these lines is Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Tera Blast, Knock Off, which can cripple common switchins in early-mid game with item removal and still sweep late game.
Hypnosis is "bad" on ladder because it's not consistent enough. Tour play favours inaccurate moves because you usually aren't playing as many games. The other thing is that Hypnosis isn't really meant to be used as a "good" option, it's about either taking advantage of switches or turning a guaranteed losing situation into a possible dice throw.
Valiant also has tradeoffs from Darkrai that make it qualitatively different, namely better typing, a boosting ability/item combo, and a lack of Bad Dreams. I think Sub/Hypnosis Darkrai could be pretty strong because of the chip effect of Bad Dreams (which substantially increases your damage output on hard counters), but with stuff like Garganacl, Zamazenta and others it just isn't going to be as impactful as people are saying.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-2005130666
I know this is random battles, but I wanted to show how dogshit this game can be sometimes (jk, random elements aren't the worst, I thought this was funny more than anything. :) ) Both me and my opponent had awful luck in this battle. I got full paralyzed 4 turns in a row and they missed 4 hurricanes in a row. Ladies and gentlemen, this is pokemon at its finest.
I know this is random battles, but I wanted to show how dogshit this game can be sometimes (jk, random elements aren't the worst, I thought this was funny more than anything. :) ) Both me and my opponent had awful luck in this battle. I got full paralyzed 4 turns in a row and they missed 4 hurricanes in a row. Ladies and gentlemen, this is pokemon at its finest.
Darkrai's coverage is:
Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, and Psyshock -- unless you wanna opt for something like Blizzard or... uuuugh, HEX
The thing about Darkrai is that while it's strong, it can't deal much damage without Choice Specs or Nasty Plot. Or Choice Scarf if you're bold enough to use that. Finding that opportunity to Nasty Plot is going to initially be pretty simple, but people will start to keep up with it within a weeks notice. The issues with those sets are:
- Choice Specs means no Heavy-Duty Boots, and this you take hazard damage
- Nasty Plot requires a turn of set up, which won't be as simple the longer Darkrai's in the tier
- Choice Scarf's damage output only goes as far as a modest Darkrai's OHKO potential, and most likely you're not even using a Modest nature.
Dealing with it isn't easy, obviously, but I did mention Kommo-o in an old post I made talking on the Darkrai situation. It is weak to Psychic and Ice Beam and Blizzard and Psyshock, but it resists Dark Pulse, and is IMMUNE to all of Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Sludge Bomb. The plan with Kommo-o for me is to use it under Aurora Veil, or with an Assault Vest and put the Darkrai in a pin: you COULD OHKO the Kommo-o, most likely, but under Aurora Veil or with an AV, I don't think that's so simple. And Kommo-o will most likely OHKO with Close Combat. Obviously Veil is helping in this situation and base Kommo-o indeed folds to Ice Beam or Psychic, but it's my base attempt at beating Kommo-o.
And now you (the viewer of this post) are also in a dilemma. You could find a solid Darkrai check like I attempted to do, or you can say "nothing beats it" -- in which case you just proves to yourself that Darkrai is indeed too strong for OU. If nothing can beat it, why allow it in OU at that point?
Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, and Psyshock -- unless you wanna opt for something like Blizzard or... uuuugh, HEX
The thing about Darkrai is that while it's strong, it can't deal much damage without Choice Specs or Nasty Plot. Or Choice Scarf if you're bold enough to use that. Finding that opportunity to Nasty Plot is going to initially be pretty simple, but people will start to keep up with it within a weeks notice. The issues with those sets are:
- Choice Specs means no Heavy-Duty Boots, and this you take hazard damage
- Nasty Plot requires a turn of set up, which won't be as simple the longer Darkrai's in the tier
- Choice Scarf's damage output only goes as far as a modest Darkrai's OHKO potential, and most likely you're not even using a Modest nature.
Dealing with it isn't easy, obviously, but I did mention Kommo-o in an old post I made talking on the Darkrai situation. It is weak to Psychic and Ice Beam and Blizzard and Psyshock, but it resists Dark Pulse, and is IMMUNE to all of Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Sludge Bomb. The plan with Kommo-o for me is to use it under Aurora Veil, or with an Assault Vest and put the Darkrai in a pin: you COULD OHKO the Kommo-o, most likely, but under Aurora Veil or with an AV, I don't think that's so simple. And Kommo-o will most likely OHKO with Close Combat. Obviously Veil is helping in this situation and base Kommo-o indeed folds to Ice Beam or Psychic, but it's my base attempt at beating Kommo-o.
And now you (the viewer of this post) are also in a dilemma. You could find a solid Darkrai check like I attempted to do, or you can say "nothing beats it" -- in which case you just proves to yourself that Darkrai is indeed too strong for OU. If nothing can beat it, why allow it in OU at that point?
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Can we please stop using the dumb argument of "we already have Darkrai at home, it's called Valiant", or even going as far as saying "Valiant hits just as hard as Darkrai"? That is straight up false and mathematically wrong. I understand that Valiant is basically faster due to 90% of sets running Booster, although one could argue that Darkrai would be the third fastest mon in the OU tier without needing to rely on an item (which ends up in the shitter once you're forced to switch out), but saying that Valiant is just as strong as Darkrai is complete bullshit. Valiant has a base SpA of 120; Darkrai, on the other hand, has a base SpA of 135. See the difference? Darkrai can also hold Specs while still being able to outspeed the entirety of the unboosted meta outside of Pult and Zamazenta, and it also has access to Nasty Plot, which significantly increases its damage output in just a single turn, compared to Valiant needing 2 to CM just to end up being weaker than it. And if Darkrai is holding a Life Orb (I don't recommend doing it but still), which is something Valiant can't afford, it gets even stronger. Furthermore, it's guaranteed that Darkrai is gonna end up with thousands of different sets due to its sheer strength and coverage, such as: Scarf with Trick, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast and Ice Beam/Sludge Bomb/Tera; Specs with the same stuff; HDB/Leftovers with Sub+NP, Dark Pulse and Focus Blast; Life Orb/HDB with NP+3 attacks; Utility with Thunder Wave/Hypnosis; Set Up with Lefties, Will-O-Wisp/Taunt, CM and 2 moves (Dark Pulse and Focus Blast/Psyshock). These are only some random sets I came up with in like 20 seconds, so I'm sure there'll be more, making this mon insanely unpredictable.
Moving on, in my last post regarding Darkrai I discussed the defensive utility that Amoonguss could provide, being able to put foes to sleep with Spore to let Darkrai in and checking the most common threats to the latter such as Valiant, Zamazenta, Ting-Lu, Fairy-types in general (Enamorus and Clef in particular) and potentially even Pult. Now, what if there was some other way to deal with these threats, especially for HO strategies? What if there was another popular mon that just so happened to be considered here as a Darkrai 2.0, that just so happened to be the fastest mon in the meta and also just so happened to have a good matchup against those very Zamazenta, Ting-Lu, Pult, itself and even the likes of Kommo-o, Kingambit, and Blissey? Yeah, exactly, what if you just paired Valiant and Darkrai and called it a day? Hell, why even bother comparing the two of them? They're both huge ass threats that resist the most common form of priority, and they also somewhat threaten each others checks (Darkrai could function as a fast Wallbreaker that can threaten Dengo, and Valiant as a Sweeper/Cleaner).
I'm not completely against the idea of testing Darkrai, but in my opinion there is only one valid argument for it, and that's "fuck you, how am I supposed to know if it is broken if I don't get to try it on the ladder? I wanna have some fun".
Moving on, in my last post regarding Darkrai I discussed the defensive utility that Amoonguss could provide, being able to put foes to sleep with Spore to let Darkrai in and checking the most common threats to the latter such as Valiant, Zamazenta, Ting-Lu, Fairy-types in general (Enamorus and Clef in particular) and potentially even Pult. Now, what if there was some other way to deal with these threats, especially for HO strategies? What if there was another popular mon that just so happened to be considered here as a Darkrai 2.0, that just so happened to be the fastest mon in the meta and also just so happened to have a good matchup against those very Zamazenta, Ting-Lu, Pult, itself and even the likes of Kommo-o, Kingambit, and Blissey? Yeah, exactly, what if you just paired Valiant and Darkrai and called it a day? Hell, why even bother comparing the two of them? They're both huge ass threats that resist the most common form of priority, and they also somewhat threaten each others checks (Darkrai could function as a fast Wallbreaker that can threaten Dengo, and Valiant as a Sweeper/Cleaner).
I'm not completely against the idea of testing Darkrai, but in my opinion there is only one valid argument for it, and that's "fuck you, how am I supposed to know if it is broken if I don't get to try it on the ladder? I wanna have some fun".
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252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 85-102 (13 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 79-94 (12.1 - 14.4%) -- possible 7HKO
Correct but that’s only for stab, darkrai’s coverage moves are going to hit harder.
I'm wholly against testing Darkrai honestly. This is not only based on the experience I've had with it in randbats with hypnosis, even tho that set is probably god awful in a real format, but also just with the combination of typing, stat distribution, and move pool.
As qways put it, yes Darkrai's STAB is weaker than Valiant's, but that's also not factoring in the bullshit inherent in flinching. Darkrai's movepool is insane and it can just pick and choose coverage, and as such, choose what you need to compensate for with teammates. In addition, Darkrai learns trick. This isn't necessarily a problem except its choice set is really good. Darkrai learns just enough moves, combined with an outrageous speed tier and a really good special attacking stat. To compare, Thundurus-Therian's is 145 and we all know how insane he would be if he had a real speed tier and wasn't stuck with a scarf set. Overall, I do not think Darkrai should be allowed in OU.
Not to sound dismissive, but most people here are criticising the idea that hypnosis Darkrai would be broken, and not it's vastly superior NP 3 attacks sets. Specifically with Hypnosis sets, they are vastly outclassed by Valiant, who can capitalize much better off of the turn of sleep and can turn it into won games.
Darkrai itself is way too much for the tier in my opinion, there is a vast lack of defensive counterplay to NP+Dark Pulse+Focus Blast+Psyshock. Even 4 attacks boots with Knock instead causes a good amount of disruption. However Hypnosis is bad on it due to not being able to turn a hypnosis hit into a sweep in the way that something like Valiant can. Darkrai would much rather run another coverage option, because if it does run Hypnosis, it's stuck with either running 3 attacks (underwhelming) or Hypno+NP and only having access to two coverage options.
I might be wrong but I did see some posts completely disregarding Darkrai's offensive capabilities as just "a worse Valiant" (and I'm seeing some right now), but aside from that I do agree that the Hypnosis set is gonna suck ass and it'll be a cheesy niche pick over literally all of the others. As I said, if you wanted to put something to sleep you might as well just pair Darkrai with Amoonguss.
And Darkrai can hold Life Orb/Specs/Black Glasses much more frequently and more consistently than Valiant, since you'd otherwise end up trading your valuable Speed boost, so what? And if we're considering the Set Up sets, once again Darkrai has access to Nasty Plot, while Valiant does not. Are those factors not relevant enough for you guys? And what about all of the other stuff I said?
whimsicott ban when????
The whole Darkrai conversation is reminding me of Sneasler, in that everyone is (initially) focusing a lot on the big scary-on-paper Sleep move and missing the fact that the Pokemon's game plan is probably just going to be go-fast-explode-ass with a Boosting move and not even bother with it.
Sneasler was more extreme since Sleep was attached to a move that served as decent STAB (though I always held it inferior to Gunk Shot for a Poison attack on the mon) and ripped teams harder due to much higher BP STAB, but I think it's the same point that the mon's main contention is going to be on its very fast breaking power instead of the status option.
Sneasler was more extreme since Sleep was attached to a move that served as decent STAB (though I always held it inferior to Gunk Shot for a Poison attack on the mon) and ripped teams harder due to much higher BP STAB, but I think it's the same point that the mon's main contention is going to be on its very fast breaking power instead of the status option.
I feel like people saying that darkrai is outclassed by ival are forgetting that it has nasty plot and significantly higher spA than val, meaning that if it just decides to use some basic nasty plot sets it will have a niche that val can't replicate. It also does a greater job in terms of longevity, as being naturally incredibly fast rather than having a speed stat dependant on a one-time boost means that notable mons like cinderace, meowscarada, and greninja can't bait out the speed boost so that they can't be revenge killed the next time it comes out. Along with this dark is just a good typing, yes the 3 types that resist it are relatively common, but it hits ghost super effectively and damn near everything else neutrally, while also adding a mon to the list of special attackers not checked by slowking.
Now, at the risk of sounding a lot like Srn, this is the set I believe would be the most effective and scary:
Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Tera Blast
- Substitute
Sub NP darkrai seems terrifying - being fully capable of setting up on mons it either forces out and then being protected from any revenge killing attempts from mons not named dragapult thanks to sub, while having completely unresisted moves thanks to tera fairy blast. You might say that sub is a dead slot on this set but it doesn't really need any attacks other than dark pulse and tera blast - except maybe psyshock to hit clodsire and blissey. This set doesn't really have answers, the closest thing there is is ting lu, which takes 85 minimum from +2 fairy blast. The fact that fairy is the best tera type on it offensively isn't helped by the fact that it's also great defensively, now being resistant to u-turn and fighting moves.
So this set is a gigantic threat with minimal defensive counterplay and already raises question marks as to how balanced it would be in the tier, but of course it's not darkrai's only viable option, it can also run choiced sets - using trick to cripple mons that would otherwise wall it - or even offensive utility sets - it learns knock off, will o wisp, taunt, t-wave, and - yes - hypnosis.
Now, at the risk of sounding a lot like Srn, this is the set I believe would be the most effective and scary:
Darkrai @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Tera Blast
- Substitute
Sub NP darkrai seems terrifying - being fully capable of setting up on mons it either forces out and then being protected from any revenge killing attempts from mons not named dragapult thanks to sub, while having completely unresisted moves thanks to tera fairy blast. You might say that sub is a dead slot on this set but it doesn't really need any attacks other than dark pulse and tera blast - except maybe psyshock to hit clodsire and blissey. This set doesn't really have answers, the closest thing there is is ting lu, which takes 85 minimum from +2 fairy blast. The fact that fairy is the best tera type on it offensively isn't helped by the fact that it's also great defensively, now being resistant to u-turn and fighting moves.
So this set is a gigantic threat with minimal defensive counterplay and already raises question marks as to how balanced it would be in the tier, but of course it's not darkrai's only viable option, it can also run choiced sets - using trick to cripple mons that would otherwise wall it - or even offensive utility sets - it learns knock off, will o wisp, taunt, t-wave, and - yes - hypnosis.
I find it funny how Sneasler was so difficult to beat initially, but then people found out how to put a stop to Dire Claw shenanigans -- only for it to be banned because of its Unburden Swords Dance set.
Watch the same thing happen to Darkrai. It'll be a tier shattering menace. People will figure out how to stop it. And then some bullshit physical Knock Off set is gonna make it obsurdly powerful to the point of a ban
this is CLOWN shit, man
i mean to be fair, it DOES still have pretty alright physical coverage in fighting, (brick break and drain punch) poison, (poison jab) rock, (rock slide/tomb)
AND it does have sucker punch + knock off + trick
slotting knock off as a way to gain momentum at the cost of losing coverage on something like specs/scarf doesn't sound like the worst idea, just certainly not a good one lmao
You guy's have to understand that no matter how powerful Darkrai may seem, it still has to set up Nasty Plot. May I remind you that if it doesn't, it's taking 70% minimum from anything that hits mildly hard. You U-turn on this thing and suddenly it's on life support, and if it spams sub to try and set up, then no matter what the sub's being broken.
also I really hope you guy's don't start pointing to darkrai's physical coverage options as a reason for it not to drop when it has 90 attack
randbats isn't a real format stop complaining about hypnosis, I hate darkrai as much as you but hypnosis sucks shit
Extremely short-sighted argument. Replace Darkrai in that picture with Valiant, Ogerpon, Hamurott, Chomp, Manaphy, and/or Tusk and you get the same result. Furthermore, Darkrai resists the second most common form of priority in Sucker Punch from Gambit. I get that you are trying to make the point that darkrai struggles to set up due to bad defensive typing, but saying that the hardest-hitting priority in the tier can stop a setup sweeper after a neutral hit (friendly reminder that darkrai is more specially bulky than lando-t and more physically bulky than Ace/Moth) is not at all impressive or unique.
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