Quick claw is a meme, no one uses it nowadays. I also highly doubt the council cares about quick claw.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Hear me out, but what if we ban everything mentioned in the survey that has a general majority of 3/5 or above, and call it a day? I mean, most of the mons there are pains in the ass to deal with (ex. Waterpon, Gliscor, Gambit, RM), and the others can be potential problems with the problem mons gone. We could just do a Gen 2 NU, and preemptively ban Sneasler, Ghold, and any other 3/5 or 4/5 as well to not worry. Thus COULD work, though I doubt anyone will agree with this, since this could result in bad tiering management for future bans and generations.
Ninetales-Alola
(1-5): 2
Gliscor
(1-5): 4
I said it was disgraced compared to its previous appearances and I meant it, but it has turned out better than I anticipated... again. The hazards metagame is far too tangled between the myriad of hazard setters we've received since last gen and now, and Gliscor thickens the pot. It constricts teambuilding far too much from both ends of the teambuilder due to its significant staying power thanks to its improved utility, bar the loss of Roost. Its ability to keep hazards up with the aid of Gholdengo and the pressure of current offensive stays like Woger, Moon, Iron Moth, Valiant, and the like puts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the metagame. However, Gliscor is one component in a broken machine in need of fixing.
Kingambit
(1-5): 5
Kingambit hinges on so much of the metgame at once, it only feels fitting to reevaluate it once DLC2 drops. Major components of the metagame are shifting at the moment, which means that a fair glance at Kingambit is unlikely following a failed suspect test and several other threats boiling over at once. However, its ability to snowball in the back of a team consistently greatly constricts teambuilding from both ends of the teambuilder, all the same as Gliscor does. I personally thoroughly disagree with the members of the community that think this thing has fine counterplay in a Tera metagame, it's disgusting and you can only guess based on team composition what its Tera-type is. Myself and a large portion of the community still want this tested and banned for good, but it isn't likely to happen in the near future, so we have to sit and wait for our revenge.
Gholdengo
(1-5): 4
Gholdengo isn't the issue so much as its Good As Gold is. The ability to block Defog and Rapid Spin in a hazard stacking metagame perpetuates an unhealthy balance between hazard removal and setters, and constricts your teambuilding options to: "Do I want to die from hazards?" or "Do I not want to die from hazards?" (you die to hazards anyways). Our removal options kinda suck thanks to Gholdengo and I wouldn't be disappointed if it got banned.
Woger
(1-5): 5
Woger is literally just Foger but with extra steps. I refuse to elaborate any further than I already have about it, it's broken all the same as its counterpart was and it needs banned.
Moon
(1-5): 5
ONE WORD: BAN.
(1-5): 2That said, A9T has continued to be relatively manageable following the ban of Bloona. We still have stuff like Woger and Manaphy, in addition to Moon walking around, but they don't make screens as big of an issue as Baxcalibur or Bloona did.
Gliscor
(1-5): 4I said it was disgraced compared to its previous appearances and I meant it, but it has turned out better than I anticipated... again. The hazards metagame is far too tangled between the myriad of hazard setters we've received since last gen and now, and Gliscor thickens the pot. It constricts teambuilding far too much from both ends of the teambuilder due to its significant staying power thanks to its improved utility, bar the loss of Roost. Its ability to keep hazards up with the aid of Gholdengo and the pressure of current offensive stays like Woger, Moon, Iron Moth, Valiant, and the like puts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the metagame. However, Gliscor is one component in a broken machine in need of fixing.
Kingambit
(1-5): 5Kingambit hinges on so much of the metgame at once, it only feels fitting to reevaluate it once DLC2 drops. Major components of the metagame are shifting at the moment, which means that a fair glance at Kingambit is unlikely following a failed suspect test and several other threats boiling over at once. However, its ability to snowball in the back of a team consistently greatly constricts teambuilding from both ends of the teambuilder, all the same as Gliscor does. I personally thoroughly disagree with the members of the community that think this thing has fine counterplay in a Tera metagame, it's disgusting and you can only guess based on team composition what its Tera-type is. Myself and a large portion of the community still want this tested and banned for good, but it isn't likely to happen in the near future, so we have to sit and wait for our revenge.
Gholdengo
(1-5): 4Gholdengo isn't the issue so much as its Good As Gold is. The ability to block Defog and Rapid Spin in a hazard stacking metagame perpetuates an unhealthy balance between hazard removal and setters, and constricts your teambuilding options to: "Do I want to die from hazards?" or "Do I not want to die from hazards?" (you die to hazards anyways). Our removal options kinda suck thanks to Gholdengo and I wouldn't be disappointed if it got banned.
Woger
(1-5): 5Woger is literally just Foger but with extra steps. I refuse to elaborate any further than I already have about it, it's broken all the same as its counterpart was and it needs banned.
Moon
(1-5): 5ONE WORD: BAN.
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roaring moon got the majority but who was the second ranked pokemon in the survey and how much difference?
keep looking at current, single most used wallbreaker/sweeper, like happened to walking wake or with the volc quickban is only the tip of the iceberg, 
should get quickbanned, all four are at the same level suspecting only one makes no sense
after this, thing should move on how to act on ghold/spikes situation: gliscor is annoying but banning him means players will use ghold + samurott in ho and ghold + ting in bo/semistall, the problem is how easy is place spikes and keep them in the field not the setter
and ofc, if manaphy is too busted nobody will cry if it gets quickbanned
keep looking at current, single most used wallbreaker/sweeper, like happened to walking wake or with the volc quickban is only the tip of the iceberg,
should get quickbanned, all four are at the same level suspecting only one makes no senseafter this, thing should move on how to act on ghold/spikes situation: gliscor is annoying but banning him means players will use ghold + samurott in ho and ghold + ting in bo/semistall, the problem is how easy is place spikes and keep them in the field not the setter
and ofc, if manaphy is too busted nobody will cry if it gets quickbanned
I'd like to propose, on the subject of Gholdengo, that it doesn't actually have to be that good at its job to be worth consideration. I know that sounds insane, but just think about it: consideration of how much or little it beats in the meta as a factor in its viability presupposes that beating it actually matters.
It's true that Gholdengo can lose 1v1 to Great Tusk. It's true that common Gholdengo sets lose to Kingambit. Whatever they may be, it's clear that from a threat perspective, Gholdengo is not inherently overcentralizing and has answers that unquestionably beat it. Additionally, when it's gone, it obviously can't block hazard removal. So then, let's consider how much impact that has actually had on the metagame. For the first time in a long time (ever?), Ribombee is OU by usage. Right now, hazard stack as an archetype is incredibly strong, with Gliscor only making it better. Cinderace is not only common, but runs Court Change on 93% of its movesets. The second most common defogger, Mandibuzz, is almost 3 times less common than Corviknight. Any other possible alternatives fall off even harder. Causality aside, the hazard metagame is currently very clearly biased in favor of removal being significantly worse than hazard setting.
Does Gholdengo cause the power of hazard stack by itself? I don't think so. Gliscor, as one of the main drivers of the hazard stacking environment currently, would be good with or without Gholdengo around for it to benefit from. Even without the protection to its hazards that Gholdengo provides, it would still use the free turns it generates to get up spikes. Even without Gliscor, Ting-Lu would exist to fulfill its role. Rocks are, as always, easy to splash on a variety of mons - though Great Tusk again deserves special mention.
That said, while evaluating the presence of hazard stack as an archetype may be informative as a consideration of the power Gholdengo exerts outside of itself, it is not actually necessary to consider the impact and influence of Gholdengo itself. As it stands, the hazard removal metagame itself is completely driven by Gholdengo. There is essentially one form of hazard removal in the entire tier that is actually somewhat reliable in the face of Gholdengo, and that is Cinderace's court change. This is plain to see in the composition of balance teams, which essentially have a non-negotiable Cinderace slot, with an additional slot potentially set aside for a backup Gholdengo-capable remover like Great Tusk. Whether or not Gholdengo actually wins the 1v1 against Great Tusk or other hypothetical hazard removers ends up being entirely insubstantial to its effectiveness. You can't presuppose beating it, because in the event matchup conditions do not allow you to readily maneuver your hazard remover around, Gholdengo may simply entirely invalidate your only chances to remove hazards in the game.
Even in the context of hyper offense teams, which struggle significantly harder to keep Gholdengo around for the long haul, sacking Gholdengo's HP to get chip on the opponent's hazard removal so that they cannot do their job later is entirely worth it, and usually suffices to maintain hazards. It is no accident that 80% of Ribombee are accompanied by a Gholdengo.
So long as Gholdengo sticks around, it will exert a negative influence on the metagame by signficantly dampening the possible avenues for hazard control. Even in games where it isn't present itself, the teambuilding considerations forced by Gholdengo's presence are beneficial to hazard stacking archetypes, as teams either have to forego reliable hazard control in favor of just using a Cinderace, or sacrifice significant pressure to run multiple hazard removers. I would very much like to see a metagame without it.
(All stats pulled from 1695 DLC1).
It's true that Gholdengo can lose 1v1 to Great Tusk. It's true that common Gholdengo sets lose to Kingambit. Whatever they may be, it's clear that from a threat perspective, Gholdengo is not inherently overcentralizing and has answers that unquestionably beat it. Additionally, when it's gone, it obviously can't block hazard removal. So then, let's consider how much impact that has actually had on the metagame. For the first time in a long time (ever?), Ribombee is OU by usage. Right now, hazard stack as an archetype is incredibly strong, with Gliscor only making it better. Cinderace is not only common, but runs Court Change on 93% of its movesets. The second most common defogger, Mandibuzz, is almost 3 times less common than Corviknight. Any other possible alternatives fall off even harder. Causality aside, the hazard metagame is currently very clearly biased in favor of removal being significantly worse than hazard setting.
Does Gholdengo cause the power of hazard stack by itself? I don't think so. Gliscor, as one of the main drivers of the hazard stacking environment currently, would be good with or without Gholdengo around for it to benefit from. Even without the protection to its hazards that Gholdengo provides, it would still use the free turns it generates to get up spikes. Even without Gliscor, Ting-Lu would exist to fulfill its role. Rocks are, as always, easy to splash on a variety of mons - though Great Tusk again deserves special mention.
That said, while evaluating the presence of hazard stack as an archetype may be informative as a consideration of the power Gholdengo exerts outside of itself, it is not actually necessary to consider the impact and influence of Gholdengo itself. As it stands, the hazard removal metagame itself is completely driven by Gholdengo. There is essentially one form of hazard removal in the entire tier that is actually somewhat reliable in the face of Gholdengo, and that is Cinderace's court change. This is plain to see in the composition of balance teams, which essentially have a non-negotiable Cinderace slot, with an additional slot potentially set aside for a backup Gholdengo-capable remover like Great Tusk. Whether or not Gholdengo actually wins the 1v1 against Great Tusk or other hypothetical hazard removers ends up being entirely insubstantial to its effectiveness. You can't presuppose beating it, because in the event matchup conditions do not allow you to readily maneuver your hazard remover around, Gholdengo may simply entirely invalidate your only chances to remove hazards in the game.
Even in the context of hyper offense teams, which struggle significantly harder to keep Gholdengo around for the long haul, sacking Gholdengo's HP to get chip on the opponent's hazard removal so that they cannot do their job later is entirely worth it, and usually suffices to maintain hazards. It is no accident that 80% of Ribombee are accompanied by a Gholdengo.
So long as Gholdengo sticks around, it will exert a negative influence on the metagame by signficantly dampening the possible avenues for hazard control. Even in games where it isn't present itself, the teambuilding considerations forced by Gholdengo's presence are beneficial to hazard stacking archetypes, as teams either have to forego reliable hazard control in favor of just using a Cinderace, or sacrifice significant pressure to run multiple hazard removers. I would very much like to see a metagame without it.
(All stats pulled from 1695 DLC1).
no
0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 112-136 (31.8 - 38.6%) -- 81.3% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 144-172 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
Fun fact: If Roaring Moon gets banned, it'll be the third Salamence variant to get that distinction.
OG Mence in Gen 4
Mega Mence in Gen 6
And now Roaring Moon in Gen 9.
OG Mence in Gen 4
Mega Mence in Gen 6
And now Roaring Moon in Gen 9.
I have this, weird, twisted, and slightly spiteful desire for Moon to get banned solely for my own one-sided war.
Salamence has been seen as "Worse Garchomp" for ages, so for Chomp to be in UUBL where a Mence-Clone would be in Ubers.. Well it tickles my own sort of "Revenge Fantasy" I guess.
(Salamence being #1 in SwSh OU when Gen8 ended tickles my fancy though, the Honest Mids version of Salamence)
It's funny to me how Gholdengo's ability is theoretically a worse Magic Bounce (in that it stops the move but does not attempt to turn it back against the opponent), but the one situation in which it is preferable (stopping Defog when Bounced Defog would still clear things) is so significant as to arguably just make it a better ability in practice. Like if either of this dude's typings were different (meaning either no spinblocking or easier to kill to get to the removal) or it literally had what we consider(ed) one of the best abilities in the game instead, it probably wouldn't have made the Radar like this.
it's interesting you bring up ice types, because there are 0 in OU, and Gliscor mandates our elephants to run Ice Spinner, which does an easily recoverable 55-65%, combined with protect meaning that "using ice types" tends to go Gliscor's way as it can choose to tank the ice spinner and get a toxic or another layer up, and heal and block the second hit with protect
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come and fly away with me by the fat rat would be fire for a RM suspect
but to give my thoughts on the meta itself after the tiering survey from last weekend, i dont know what we can do about this meta. i dont think anything immediately stands out as broken as of now but i also feel that if we dont act on some of them (such as gliscor/gholdengo, ogerpon-W, etc.) soon then they may be a problem later. i think roaring moon should at the very least be suspect tested assuming its not getting one by tomorrow, but regarding tiering action on it...im not completely sure. and im not sure about what action could be taken against any of the other pokemon featured on the survey
What about Alolan Ninetails?
Alolan Ninetales probably isn't a great example, since simply using it at all kind of forces you into running a veil team. Ice coverage itself is kind of at a premium right now, which is arguably worse than not having many ice types to use.
Ah yes, forgot about that one. Not exactly an offensive Mon, switching into almost anything else on the predicted freeze dry is pretty free
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 102-120 (28.9 - 34%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 90-106 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
I want to post this for a bulk comparison, keeping in mind one of these Pokemon recovers more per turn without Knock Off concerns and doesn't acknowledge any hazard besides Neutral SR while having 2 weaknesses vs 3. Defensively oriented Pokemon are historically harder to verify as unhealthy or unbalanced, but Gliscor is skirting the line as hard as I think it can on that front. The fact that it can come under this much fire in Gen 9's extremely offensively-climbing meta additions has to speak to something, and if anything is one reason I would throw support behind a suspect at some point in DLC2: If Gliscor is unhealthy, removing it probably takes away a "broken-vs-broken" stop gap for some other offensive targets people are/will be on the fence about.
(Roaring Moon I don't mind looking at first given its health for the tier is in question as is for things like free progress WHILE pulverizing things).
And one to get 1LDK crusading
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 102-120 (28.9 - 34%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-121 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 44.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 90-106 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
I want to post this for a bulk comparison, keeping in mind one of these Pokemon recovers more per turn without Knock Off concerns and doesn't acknowledge any hazard besides Neutral SR while having 2 weaknesses vs 3. Defensively oriented Pokemon are historically harder to verify as unhealthy or unbalanced, but Gliscor is skirting the line as hard as I think it can on that front. The fact that it can come under this much fire in Gen 9's extremely offensively-climbing meta additions has to speak to something, and if anything is one reason I would throw support behind a suspect at some point in DLC2: If Gliscor is unhealthy, removing it probably takes away a "broken-vs-broken" stop gap for some other offensive targets people are/will be on the fence about.
(Roaring Moon I don't mind looking at first given its health for the tier is in question as is for things like free progress WHILE pulverizing things).
And one to get 1LDK crusading
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 102-120 (28.9 - 34%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 102-121 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 44.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
gliscor contributes towards funneling gameplay towards an unideal route but I've hard time believing it's actually suspect worth. While it's the best hazard setter atm, it's also pretty much the only hazard resistant mon outside of corv, and with the ubiquity of knock off now I'm not sure getting rid of that pokemon when there's still plenty of good spikers outside of gliscor would be net healthy. Tusk/spin obviously gets better with a gliscor ban but I don't think it moves the needle enough to warrant a suspect/ban. Gholdengo is obviously the lynchpin to holding the hazards meta together and I think objectively has more broken qualities than gliscor, even if gliscor is more annoying. Counterplay to gholdengo is so different based EVs and sets it's a little bit absurd, and arguably the best gholdengo wall the tier has seen (water garg) is now UU in terms of viability. I think building successful teams that take advantage of gliscor and playing around gliscor in game are two huge skill gaps rn, so it would be kind of disappointing to see it get the ORAS sableye treatment.
Not really sure where I stand on the offensive threats. Moon is kinda busted on paper but has terrible 4mss, and as of right, pretty streamlined sets and tera options. I could see this becoming broken as more tera options and sets get explored a la gambit. Springwell feels like the most outright dumb due to how hard tera water cudgel hits, but has it's own issues with only a single tera option and no boots in a hazard centric meta. I would say Manaphy isn't broken but it's pure cheese and fishing set roulette, adds nothing of beneficial to tier besides giving the freaky sickos who only use ribombee webs another option. Gambit is still the most broken out of anything here but the DLC meta has probably been less kind to it. Hard to imagine something getting banned before gambit does but people seem really attached to it staying for arbitrary reasons. I don't mind it tbh but giving it a 2 and other mons a 5 is some stockholm syndrome shit.
Not really sure where I stand on the offensive threats. Moon is kinda busted on paper but has terrible 4mss, and as of right, pretty streamlined sets and tera options. I could see this becoming broken as more tera options and sets get explored a la gambit. Springwell feels like the most outright dumb due to how hard tera water cudgel hits, but has it's own issues with only a single tera option and no boots in a hazard centric meta. I would say Manaphy isn't broken but it's pure cheese and fishing set roulette, adds nothing of beneficial to tier besides giving the freaky sickos who only use ribombee webs another option. Gambit is still the most broken out of anything here but the DLC meta has probably been less kind to it. Hard to imagine something getting banned before gambit does but people seem really attached to it staying for arbitrary reasons. I don't mind it tbh but giving it a 2 and other mons a 5 is some stockholm syndrome shit.
personally I think it's totally ghold that's the problem rather than gliscor. Gliscor seems like it brings a lot to balance teams. It forces progress really easily and stays alive well. However, these balance teams are simply being strangled because of its own hazards. They can't outlast stall and can't defend against offense because of the hazards, so the teams usually either become more offensive and doesn't care about hazards or slaps on 6 boots and becomes stall to try and handle the 8 million offensive threats. If Ghold was banned, Gliscor's hazards could actually be removed by Defog users like Corv or Mandi, making balance teams infinitely more playable.
I'd also like to emphasize how GHOLD IS ACTUALLY A GOOD MON. It's strengths aren't just "blocks defog" like ribombee's is "sticky web" (plus fairy stab ig), it's the best wallbreaker we have, has almost the best defensive type in the game (steel/fairy is the best imo), combined with recovery, setup, massive fucking special attack, enough speed and power to run either specs or scarf comfortably, trick, just stupid amounts of things it can do. I'm kind of tired trying to find effective things that can defensively tank its nasty plot set without resorting to Clodsire or Kingambit (who just gets focus blasted anyway). We wouldn't be losing anything valuable and it might help the balance meta develop anyway to not have to deal with this even if none of the removal gets better at all.
I'd also like to emphasize how GHOLD IS ACTUALLY A GOOD MON. It's strengths aren't just "blocks defog" like ribombee's is "sticky web" (plus fairy stab ig), it's the best wallbreaker we have, has almost the best defensive type in the game (steel/fairy is the best imo), combined with recovery, setup, massive fucking special attack, enough speed and power to run either specs or scarf comfortably, trick, just stupid amounts of things it can do. I'm kind of tired trying to find effective things that can defensively tank its nasty plot set without resorting to Clodsire or Kingambit (who just gets focus blasted anyway). We wouldn't be losing anything valuable and it might help the balance meta develop anyway to not have to deal with this even if none of the removal gets better at all.
yes
Why coming for me bro
+6 Lvl 1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Tera Normal Arceus Breakneck Blitz (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught on a critical hit: 4-6 (1 - 1.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
I'd say maybe RM
Which Salamence wore it the best? Gen 4, Mega, or Paradox?
Mega Salamence, that thing came out swinging and people unanimously agreed it was OP asf.
Which Salamence wore it the best? Gen 4, Mega, or Paradox?
OK so I have 2 things to say about this.
#1: The song should 1000% be Get You The Moon by Kina ft. Snow (nah I'm just playin that song is a bit too "sad" for any form of a suspect test)
#2: IF -- and this is a very likely if -- Roaring Moon gets banned, Salamence would have 3 forms either from or relating to it in Ubers at some point in competitive. This is quite literally history in the making, because no normal pokemon has had 3 or more forms of themselves banned from OU. Deoxys has been banned sure, but that's a mythical. Urshifu has 2 forms. And all the other pokemon with multiple forms are either legendaries or mythical pokemon. Roaring Moon shall deny all the Roaring Mid allegations and prove to everyone from here and onward that Salamence in its entirety is not an OU caliber pokemon -- even if it takes 20 other variations of itself to do so
You bastard. You broken bastard. If only Game Freak knew of the damage you'd cause in singles
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