Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Deathbringer7]

It's actually RM for real this time damn.
I think this and Gliscor are the only pokemon that deserve action in the near future. RM is simply too effective at making game to game progress against all kinds of team structures. After receiving knock off , it can easily wear down the bulkier structures that earlier stuffed it, allowing both itself and it's teammates to mow past, HO is awful against it if it's not running Zama (which isn't ironclad against it either) and stall gets knocked and proceeded to be ripped apart by hazards, if Glisc tries to come in to absorb Knock it can get U Turned on for free entry to Wellspring or be surprised by Sub. I just don't think there's sufficient reasonable team options to the pivot set, DD Booster Acro, and Band (both with and without sun). Although I'm a scrub with HO at high ladder so if any HO pros know better about handling this guy, please let me know.

Gliscor is stupid both with and without Ghold. Ghold only takes pressure off of Glisc , Glisc already beats all available hazard removal in the long term by itself. This mon was not meant to gain spikes. It drains away for too many resources from offense while trying to muscle past it as it racks chip with Spikes and Toxic and Glisc Balance vs Glisc Balance is genuinely a horrendous feature of the metagame as it involves a Gen 5 Ferro-esque situation where they throw up spikes against each other and then just stare off until one of the two chickens out, risking a Toxic on the incoming mon. It's one of the most centralizing and homogenizing presences in the tier and deserves to go. DLC2 boosted defog distrib won't help btw, it simply beats all of Zapdos Torn Moltres and Lando in the long term, Toxicing them and setting spikes in their face as they flail around trying to defog.

 

[Pando067]

People who say zama walls rm are lying to themselves.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 404-476 (104.1 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i knew it

 

[Spheal boi]

View attachment 562506
i knew it

Why I see the wing of Sephiroth there even if it's Kingambit?

 

[Weirdhamster]

Alright lads time to come up with a song.

The killing moon

On a more serious note, I’m not convinced that moon is too broken. While yes, it is a very strong pokemon with good speed, I’m not convinced that it lives up to the standard to get banned from ou. We already have tons of strong attackers in ou. Look at Kingambit, Dragonite, Ogerpon etc. All these pokemon are strong attackers in their own way. Of course you can’t just say that it won’t be banned cause there are other threats, heck, manaphy barley does the same thing as moon, but I’m still not convinced that it should be fully banned. Even though nothing straight up “counters” it, there are still pokemon that can handle it decently well. And again, there are still pokemon that no mons counter like the aforementioned ogerpon or to an extent, manaphy. With an insane amount of priority in the tier, it’s also not too impossible to try and wear it down either. Stuff such as defensive zapdos, gliscor, terad great tusk, unburden terrain seed sneasler can all try to cripple it thier own way wether it would be to paralyze it with thunder wave, or attempt to revenge kill it.

Roaring moon also doesn’t always get too many tree turns to set up with. In such a volatile meta, it can be quite rough to even set up, even if it does have a great spdef stat. Stuff like iron valiant, kingambit, sneasler, or A lot of defensive and defense pokemon still have aus out to not be complete food. Great tusk commonly runs ice spinner, toxapex, gliscor and more have toxic to cripple it, and other pokemon like empoleon still have their outs vs it.

All in all, roaring moon is a strong pokemon, but with so many other threats in the meta that are way meow difficult to check, I don’t think it’s worth banning roaring moon just yet.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Why I see the wing of Sephiroth there even if it's Kingambit?

he's doing a cosplay

 

[yomaalt]

Back when the SV leaks were still coming out, I theorized 4 paradox mons being banned. Those 4 being Flutter, Bundle, Moon and Valiant last. We're at 2/4, and if moon goes we'll be 3/4. Now I just need to convince a majority of the player base that valiant is broken.....

 

[Just A Shroom God]

If I had a nickel any time a pokemon with "moon" in the name was theorized to be broken, became completely mid, and then gained an upgrade in the DLC to become broken again, I'd have 2 nickles. It isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

 

[Finchinator]

Finch, I forgot to ask but does this suspect come with any voting on quickbans or was moon the most highly rated mon from the survey?

If it was up to just council opinion, I think Roaring Moon would be a likely quickban candidate, but we are trying to avoid another Volcarona situation and prioritizing community sentiment. A quick suspect as a middleground that only takes a week is likely.

 

[That_Dwayneee]

If it was up to just council opinion, I think Roaring Moon would be a likely quickban candidate, but we are trying to avoid another Volcarona situation and prioritizing community sentiment. A quick suspect as a middleground that only takes a week is likely.

I was referring more about if a quickban is in the works for other mons on the survey, but understandable, have a nice day.

 

[pika pal]

Alright lads time to come up with a song.

CAN YOU HEAR THE MOON by Grady is the first thing that comes to mind for me, but I can’t really name many songs with moon in the title so.

Roar of the Spark also comes to mind, but it won’t happen because idt finch will let a guilty gear song get chosen for a test.

I would have gone with the meme version that's just "You Take the Moon," but Roaring Moon also uses Sun very well so had to use the original.

I'm not surprised to see Roaring Moon make this much of a comeback in hindsight, since the biggest issue I saw in it pre-DLC was how you either stopped it hard or didn't really stop it at all, and it was REALLY aiming to be a win-condition between Booster and DD sets because of things like Tera Dependence to ensure progress. Knock Off unsurprisingly fixes a lot of these issues between a stronger 2-hits over Crunch and easy Progress-forcing, which also has the benefit of making Moon a lot better in the early or mid-game by reducing its dependence on Booster Energy for power, so it can run something like Band for power or even Boots if you want to try something cheeky like repeated Boosting chances or Sun Support.

I advocate Roaring Moon stays though because I'm petty and this is a thing
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 135-159 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 228-268 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Protect THAT, you fat flying "Crab" Scorpion!

 

[Turtleye_]

Lunatone looking at all the moon-based pokemon getting banned (It'll be the fastest QB in tiering history when Indigo Disc drops)

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Alright lads time to come up with a song.

CAN YOU HEAR THE MOON by Grady is the first thing that comes to mind for me, but I can’t really name many songs with moon in the title so.

Roar of the Spark also comes to mind, but it won’t happen because idt finch will let a guilty gear song get chosen for a test.

"between sun and moon"

or, y'know, this time it could be "bad moon rising"

 

[Mr golden sun]

Is dlc2 predicted to come in November?

 

[AlexIGuessNotFound]

- 1

Maybe an unexpected hot take given my general pessimism throughout this post, but I actually think Gholdengo has been the subject of a lot of scapegoating for problems caused largely by other pokemon. This Pokemon helps keep menaces like Amoongus and Corviknight in check, and can help fill gaps for teams as a scarfer, or balloon user (it used to be able to do more, but even ghold is restricted in versatility in this meta). Psyshock sets can help break stall, but most good stall teams these days seem use Tera Dark Blissey which beats it cleanly while also handling Stored Power Threats. It's a problem of course when paired with Waterpon forcing a Dozo tera, but this is another case of a broken pokemon scapegoating Ghold.

Most people seem to contend that this pokemon is too good at blocking hazard removal, but this is really only true for Corv, which should U-turn on it anyway (but can't because most Corv's are forced to run Iron Defense because of broken physical sweepers) it does nothing to stop measures like Court Change and tidy up, Defoggers like Mandibuzz threaten it, and even Balloon-variants don't want to come in on a fast Tusk Knock (which it can't run because they're all forced to be Ice Spinner for Gliscor). This pokemon is such a versatile glue on a lot of archetypes with its different options, helps keep annoying pokemon in check, and is perfectly balanced in my opinion with low speed, very notable type-weaknesses (ghost/fire/dark/ground), and hazard vulnerability. This pokemon was quite clearly not broken pre-DLC, and I don't think that's changed. Would be a big blow to see this Pokemon go.

I can see your point but I believe this argument is flawed. For the argument to work, you would have to assume was the origin of the hazard problem, when anyone who played pre-DLC OU knows this is false. Hazard stack has been choking the life out of balance teams ever since the inception of SV, during which there was no Gliscor. Even if was banned, we still have a spammable spikes setter that can directly threaten in . Pokemon like Bulky Court Change were not a DLC innovation, they have existed for a while before hand to deal with the hazard stack teams that were always difficult to deal with. Even if we then ban , there are still hazard stack Pokemon like and even . Simply put, the hazard setters weren't the main problem, it's how enabled them that was the problem. Yes being awful at clearing hazard is important because all the other Defoggers and Spinners (Besides ) are bad. (Most don't even beat Ghold) in theory sounds like a good answer, until you find out it has 65 attack and doesn't beat recover and does peanuts damage after the first Knock Off. And running Knock Off over foul play turns Mandibuzz into fodder for threats like and . At least was consistent into ? It's not. Air Balloon Ghold historically forces into a Knock off or Rapid Spin 50-50 and can force massive damage with Make It Rain, not to mention that a partner like Bulky Wisp can make even inconsistent into Hazard stack. A Ghold ban would be MASSIVE for balance, as they would now have at least one actually consistent Hazard control option, if nothing else. The good that does for the tier is simply outweighed by the negative, and pretending that the hazard control problem goes away if is banned is short-sighted. (Unrelated Addition, If I really wanted to, I could make Ghold beat and with .)

 

[Finchinator]

I was referring more about if a quickban is in the works for other mons on the survey, but understandable, have a nice day.

Nothing else has more support than Moon

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Nothing else has more support than Moon

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I can’t remember my answers so I’m doing this from memory.

First- Fuck Tera.

Enjoyable/ Balanced 2 or 3 for each. This metagame is centralized around a few broken mons and strategies, and how to best use the Tera cheat button to fuck your opponent.

Manaphy - 3
This mon is bannable because of the cheesy stored power BS. But it’s not really broken otherwise. It’s the fact that you can do dumb things like Tera Grass or Tera Dragon on shit like Rillaboom and Meowscarada to completely laugh at them which you shouldn’t be able to do. Split on on this, so it gets a 3. In the tiers current state this is broken and needs a ban.

Roaring Moon - 3
Idk this mon is stupid and kind of broken and I’ve used it and fought against it. Fat dudes like thicc daddy Zapdos and thic daddy Corviknight seem to do ok vs it. I can see this being banned but I don’t find it super overwhelming yet.

Gliscor - 3
I find this mon more annoying than broken. I use weather so I recognize my perspective is biased so normally Gliscor dies without much trouble. I think the protect stalling sets are whack as fuck and big waste of your opponents time. I can see why people consider this broken because it just lays spikes on everything and just makes battles even more miserable than they already are.

Ogerpon-Wellspring - 4 or 5
This girl is broken. Too fast, powerful and brainless. Without using a defensive Tera I don’t know how you stop this thing. Doesn’t help that one of her best checks (Roaring Moon) is also on this list. Broken checking broken.

Sneasler - 1
This mon sucks.

Kingambit - FIVE
Get this broken piece of shit out of OU.

Gholdengo - 3
I don’t think Dhengo the mon is broken but the presence is for sure unhealthy. I find it really stressful on the builder to have to fit Tusk, Treads, or Cinderace as non-negotiables. I’ve made 6 boots teams but they just aren’t as good overall

Nothing else I find problematic since we can’t talk about Tera.

Agree on everything other than moon, that thing is busted.

Gambit does not belong in a tera meta.

Anyway how much support did gambit get?

 

[UnusualBoy]

Not RM kind of serving a Baxcalibur realness, starting strong then dropping to UU then being banned there and rising up back to OU then becomes broken in OU with risk of being banned or just straight up banned.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Not RM kind of serving a Baxcalibur realness, starting strong then dropping to UU then being banned there and rising up back to OU then becomes broken in OU with risk of being banned or just straight up banned.

this also happened to espathra. this is the third time this has happened this gen. i think orthworm might have dropped to uu and risen back up before the shed tail ban too, so that technically counts as a fourth

so i suppose what we should be doing if we want to predict dlc2 bans is to look at what drops to uu this upcoming month

 

[RaikouLover]

Agree on everything other than moon, that thing is busted.

Gambit does not belong in a tera meta.

Anyway how much support did gambit get?

I’m still on the fence with moon because I am a Moon user and do like that this mon checks that other broken piece of shit named Ogerpon-W. Moon also soft checks Kingcheap. We are truly in a broken v broken Meta. I was really starting to like Moon. Now I’m going to have to bitch and complain about why the other two mons are still in OU.

Gah, just ban Tera already.

 

[artificialdeath]

i think orthworm might have dropped to uu and risen back up before the shed tail ban too, so that technically counts as a fourth

it did, i remember using a kinda gimmicky team involving scream tail passing wishes to orth so it could get multiple opportunities to enable a bax sweep during the 1-2 weeks godchilla was in the tier. insane to think two of those are ubers and one is RU now

 

[SnackWasTaken]

this also happened to espathra. this is the third time this has happened this gen. i think orthworm might have dropped to uu and risen back up before the shed tail ban too, so that technically counts as a fourth

so i suppose what we should be doing if we want to predict dlc2 bans is to look at what drops to uu this upcoming month

Bye bye, Ceruledge! This thing is just asking for a ban.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Quick Draw and Quick Claw also have the ability to simply rob games very frequently, there is no easy counterplay on almost any styles to an 130+ base attack wallbreaker with a damage boosting ability suddenly having a 100+ stab base power priority move without drawbacks for no reason. I've lost games to 4+ quick claw procs in a row way too many times for me to ever consider it competitive.

do people still use the quick claw archetype?
I really can't recall the last time I saw someone using it.

I highly doubt if the counsil will consider banning it again, or at least not until someone wins a tournament with that.

 

[cyberacc]

Gholdengo isn't even that crazy as an individual mon, in its vacuum it is fine as is.
Its' that the ability Good as Gold with the typing makes removal attempts horrid.
Thus spikes, and rocks are incredibly free and taxing on the builder.
And what preys on spike spam + rocks strategies?
Overloading the hazard setters. Killing them before the hazards even happen.
Thus, we set the funny webs with the cute fairy bug then go to our swords dancers. Smash our head against the pavement with ceaseless edge, send in Waterpon SD -> Ivy Cudgel then double to Glimm on their tera.
What preys on things hell bent on trying to kill you?
Stall. Stall preys on that.
And what does stall hate?
% damage and utility racking up over the course of the attrition war.
And what does %damage and acts as utility?
Spikes and rocks.

To me its' causing a massive negative feedback loop to even keep Gholdengo in the tier at the moment since its' cascading effect is way too much to be considered reasonable. Which honestly sucks: Gholdengo is fun to use and is engaging to actually deal with in the 1v1 and it offers a lot of cool traits defensively and offensively.

But I genuinely can't see how it is feasible or even fair to keep it in the metagame when its' causing this negative feedback loop of people complaining about HO complaining about spikes complaining about stall. Until Gamefreak decides to make Defog distribution as accessible as it was in SS I sincerely see no benefit to keeping Gholdengo in SV right now.

Ban it temporarily to solve the current nightmare that is navigating the hazard game so we at least let some part of this boiling volcano of a metagame to settle. At least for a bit.