Plus there is always weakest starter in a trio. Delphox in gen 6, Inteleon in gen 8, Meganium in gen2
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SPOILERS! Pokemon Legends: Arceus *Leak Thread*
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
The thing that sort of irks me about the Hisuian Form starters is that they reused previously used starter typings again. I had thought they had learned their lesson about that after Emboar being the third Fire/Fighting starter in a row and that not going so well but, in this case, Decidueye and Samurott's Hisuian forms reuse the same types as Chesnaught and Greninja, and also come off as notably inferior to them in that they don't seem to stand out to the same degree. H-Decidueye lacks a distinct identity with its statline, and likely has a worse movepool than all of its fellow Grass/Fighting types, and doesn't seem to have anything distinct going for it like Chesnaught who has a strong defensive statline, and good utility moves and an ability in Bulletproof (Chesnaught is a good UU Pokemon and even had a niche in Gen 6 OU), and H-Samurott is better than Unovan Samurott but overall it's not anywhere on the level of Greninja who is a godly sweeper and revenge killer (granted, topping Greninja means you have to be very much exceptional). I guess at least it has a distinct function that will make it good in lower tiers and make it not feel like Greninja, I suppose. On one hand I'm glad their builds aren't totally identical to Chesnaught and Greninja but reusing the same typing as those two feels pretty lame.
H-Typhlosion I'll give credit for not totally ripping off Delphox since the other two ripped off Kalos starter typings. That being said, Fire/Ghost and Fire/Psychic are still pretty similar conceptually lmao. I guess maybe Typhlosion could find its niche over the fox with coverage in Focus Blast, even though it's slower than Delphox and Delphox has Calm Mind and tricks like Switcheroo which helped it a lot in lower tiers.
The only case where I was okay with a starter reusing a previously reused starter type combo was Infernape in Gen 4 but that's because Infernape is a GOAT design and a good Pokemon who was better than Blaziken back in its day, even if Blaziken now has the edge because Speed Boost is broken.
H-Typhlosion I'll give credit for not totally ripping off Delphox since the other two ripped off Kalos starter typings. That being said, Fire/Ghost and Fire/Psychic are still pretty similar conceptually lmao. I guess maybe Typhlosion could find its niche over the fox with coverage in Focus Blast, even though it's slower than Delphox and Delphox has Calm Mind and tricks like Switcheroo which helped it a lot in lower tiers.
The only case where I was okay with a starter reusing a previously reused starter type combo was Infernape in Gen 4 but that's because Infernape is a GOAT design and a good Pokemon who was better than Blaziken back in its day, even if Blaziken now has the edge because Speed Boost is broken.
Basculin seems to evolve just by recoil damage taken, and it has nothing to do with styles. I also just got one ready to evolve after using Double Edge. I kept track of the recoil damage it had taken, and it didn't evolve at 291 damage, but prompted immediately after the next battle. I think it's 300 total recoil damage.
Allow me a frank remark: You guys need to stop expecting every pokemon to be good competitively.
That includes starters or legendaryes.
I don't see any problem with these starters "being worse than mons from different generations". Moreso now in the context of limited pokedexes where their competition might not even be there in a given game in first place.
As Sulfurian and Project_Mars correctly said, at this point creating anything literally unique is going to be borderline impossible and almost everything released will be either a "better X", "worse Y", or in extreme cases, so strong to be gamebreaking (See gen 8 restricteds) or just complete garbage.
Like, give it up, all that's important is that they are functional in game and have a look that has a meaning.
I forgot who made it, but that analysis of Regis design vs the new genie design was a MUCH more thought and interesting analysis+critique than "it's a worse Greninja so it sucks"
H-Decidueye has a solid look for its design, stats and typing that more or less match its design, that's all it needs. It doesn't *need* to be unique in the competitive scene, it doesn't even need to be good, it could be Meganium-tier bad and still be fine. You can apply same logic to the others.
That includes starters or legendaryes.
I don't see any problem with these starters "being worse than mons from different generations". Moreso now in the context of limited pokedexes where their competition might not even be there in a given game in first place.
As Sulfurian and Project_Mars correctly said, at this point creating anything literally unique is going to be borderline impossible and almost everything released will be either a "better X", "worse Y", or in extreme cases, so strong to be gamebreaking (See gen 8 restricteds) or just complete garbage.
Like, give it up, all that's important is that they are functional in game and have a look that has a meaning.
I forgot who made it, but that analysis of Regis design vs the new genie design was a MUCH more thought and interesting analysis+critique than "it's a worse Greninja so it sucks"
H-Decidueye has a solid look for its design, stats and typing that more or less match its design, that's all it needs. It doesn't *need* to be unique in the competitive scene, it doesn't even need to be good, it could be Meganium-tier bad and still be fine. You can apply same logic to the others.
100% agree. It's called Power Creep. And it's alright. "Bad" Pokémon can always shine in lower tiers.
lol I mean there's still quite a handful who never shine at all but I get what you're sayin'
Because out of 1000+ pokemon, even 20 tiers aren't enough to make all of them usable.
Ultimately you aren't exactly going to have Caterpie shine anywhere, because it's a pokemon *designed* to be weak. Makes sense right?
Honestly, having detailed discussion about these mons viability or lack thereof is kind of pointless. We know nothing of the meta they will exist and and we don’t know how they’ll port over.
Let me have a slight pause in the discussion to gush a bit over Ursaluna:
For the first time since Gen IV, a previously fully-evolved Pokémon has received an evolution to create a three-stage evolution family. Not just a regional form that receives an extra evolution (i.e. Mr. Rime), but an original 'mon that has been fully evolved for many years. In other words, an existing evolutionary family has received an upgrade in a way we haven't seen in more than 15 years. I really liked it the last time it happened, and I hope TPC will continue to do it, because stuff like this always puts the entire evolutionary family in a wholly new light. The Teddiursa family is now a three-stage family, and that changes things for me. I don't think I can explain why, but it's like it makes the Pokémon more worth catching and more fun to use in-game. You get this massive power surge that comes with evolution twice when playing the game, and the final form is like a big prize for training the base form. The extra power helps too. Now Teddiursa won't just evolve into a decently powerful Normal-type, but one that kicks buttocks. The "potential" of Teddiursa has changed from "will eventually be okay" to "will eventually be really good", making it much more attractive for in-game runs in my eyes.
I'm so glad it was Teddiursa that got this treatment too. Normal-types have a tendency to be overlooked these days. It's the typing they slap on the regional bird, the regional rodent, and sometimes on some cutesy Route 2 'mon that evolves into an equally cutesy but terribly weak 'mon around the third Gym or so. Late-game Normal-types are very rare, but they used to be a common sight. Kangaskhan, Tauros, the Porygon family, Blissey, Snorlax ... you could get far with a pure Normal typing in the old days. Nowadays, if you find a Normal-type in the lategame, it is usually slapped onto a Pokémon that was clearly designed with its more interesting base typing in mind, but had Normal added as a secondary just to fill the quota (here's looking at Heliolisk, Indeedee, Drampa, and Oranguru). Adding insult to injury, those are usually single-stage too. The last time we got a three-stage Normal family that wasn't the region's iteration of some classic archetype, was ... *checks notes* ... Lillipup. Ursaluna is a very welcome addition to the group of late-game Normal-types.
Granted, for the abovementioned reasons I'm a little disappointed they added a Ground-typing, as if Normal on its own wouldn't be exciting enough, but then again, every new Pokémon or form in this game is a dual-type except White Stripe Basculin (whose difference from the other Basculin forms is purely visual), so I guess it was an obligation, and they could have done much worse than Ground.
So yeah, here's to Ursaluna, the Pokémon some of us have been waiting for for four generations. I hope Gen 9 - or whatever next games are to follow - will bring us more like it.
For the first time since Gen IV, a previously fully-evolved Pokémon has received an evolution to create a three-stage evolution family. Not just a regional form that receives an extra evolution (i.e. Mr. Rime), but an original 'mon that has been fully evolved for many years. In other words, an existing evolutionary family has received an upgrade in a way we haven't seen in more than 15 years. I really liked it the last time it happened, and I hope TPC will continue to do it, because stuff like this always puts the entire evolutionary family in a wholly new light. The Teddiursa family is now a three-stage family, and that changes things for me. I don't think I can explain why, but it's like it makes the Pokémon more worth catching and more fun to use in-game. You get this massive power surge that comes with evolution twice when playing the game, and the final form is like a big prize for training the base form. The extra power helps too. Now Teddiursa won't just evolve into a decently powerful Normal-type, but one that kicks buttocks. The "potential" of Teddiursa has changed from "will eventually be okay" to "will eventually be really good", making it much more attractive for in-game runs in my eyes.
I'm so glad it was Teddiursa that got this treatment too. Normal-types have a tendency to be overlooked these days. It's the typing they slap on the regional bird, the regional rodent, and sometimes on some cutesy Route 2 'mon that evolves into an equally cutesy but terribly weak 'mon around the third Gym or so. Late-game Normal-types are very rare, but they used to be a common sight. Kangaskhan, Tauros, the Porygon family, Blissey, Snorlax ... you could get far with a pure Normal typing in the old days. Nowadays, if you find a Normal-type in the lategame, it is usually slapped onto a Pokémon that was clearly designed with its more interesting base typing in mind, but had Normal added as a secondary just to fill the quota (here's looking at Heliolisk, Indeedee, Drampa, and Oranguru). Adding insult to injury, those are usually single-stage too. The last time we got a three-stage Normal family that wasn't the region's iteration of some classic archetype, was ... *checks notes* ... Lillipup. Ursaluna is a very welcome addition to the group of late-game Normal-types.
Granted, for the abovementioned reasons I'm a little disappointed they added a Ground-typing, as if Normal on its own wouldn't be exciting enough, but then again, every new Pokémon or form in this game is a dual-type except White Stripe Basculin (whose difference from the other Basculin forms is purely visual), so I guess it was an obligation, and they could have done much worse than Ground.
So yeah, here's to Ursaluna, the Pokémon some of us have been waiting for for four generations. I hope Gen 9 - or whatever next games are to follow - will bring us more like it.
And that's the point of the discussion above. Point out that not any Mons have to be strong, viable, or useful in a competitive point of view.
I think there's definitely a middle ground between competitively dominant like Greninja and "so bad it's bad in-game" like Meganium
I fully agree with that. But that being said, I like when they aim for every Pokémon to have some sort of usable functionality. Not necessarily something workable in a competitive format, but some kind of wacky shenanigans they could pull off in-game. Even if it's just essentially "at least it's a decent Sub-puncher" even if Sub-punching itself isn't competitively viable.
EDIT: What PK Gaming said above.
Do you know where we can find the nature mint ?
Yeah, but it's oftentimes the Mons which are in the middle, like RU/NU, from which you hear a lot of complaints. Because they just need a few tweaks. And some of them actually do, each Gen ! Look at my boy Swellow, or even Dodrio.
Plus, if smogon players were in charge of designing any new pokemon nothing would be under 100 speed and I think that would get annoying after a bit. I understand the frustration of GF making slow tanks that don't hit hard enough, or tanky enough to be worth it, but there's so many ways to handle a slower pokemon. Sure costs more resources that might cost you the win but it's not impossible to experiment.
I feel like Greninja is an unfair comparison for Samurott. It was likely made as a response to 5 prior generations of slow water starters and given special treatment. It seems like it was obvious internally who would be the standout starter(I think chestnaught needs more appreciation. It has a kickass design). It not only has the right stats but the right ability. Protean also makes it's type irrelavent when comparing it to Samurott since Sam has to stay water/dark. Sure there is ash Greninja but again that is a special case. And even though this is smogon, we all know that GF balances around doubles causing some pokemon to be bonkers in one format and garbage in another *cough* incinerora *cough*.
Heck Inteleon is basically just greninja without protean and look how it turned out evn though it's concept is super cool. It's like they purposefully made sure it couldn't be like greninja lol.
Hi everyone! I dunno if anyone was interested in this topic, but I was discussing it with my friends and
m...mostly needed somewhere to put it so I could just conveniently link a post instead of screenshotting all of this from my sandbox P:
but I was speculating a whole bunch on what the new moves might look like when they make their way to the main series, so I have their raw information (category/stats/flags) from the datamine and their established descriptions, and I will be elaborating on them all with the stat changes and effect chances they are stated to have in the data (some of which I suspect are meant to be used for a main series context, because stat changes work a bit differently in Legends - will get to that later in the post) amd some speculative comments on what they'll look like when these Pokémon make it to the main series.
I hope this is interesting! Some parts of it are more speculative than others, but I'm pretty confident in most of these predictions and they're all based very solidly on comparisons to things we definitely know and the data of other moves (some that changed and some that didn't), so it should be helpful as a point of reference if nothing else!
I'm posting this without reading literally any of the surrounding posts because I don't want story spoilers myself </3 I'm sorry if this is coming at a weird time or anything but I truly do not want to read the context I just drafted this in my sandbox
I may not write back if you respond to me I'm sorry
The user lashes out at the target with ruinous claws, aiming to land a critical hit. This may also leave the target poisoned, paralyzed, or drowsy.
(targets one opponent; makes contact; user must recharge; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- notice that this and Psyshield Bash inexplicably have a recharge turn in their flags (the same as Hyper Beam clones like Giga Impact); this does not appear to interact with Legends mechanics and they have entirely different mechanisms for turn order, but it might just be an accident
- appears to have roughly 30% chance to activate (possibly the exact same status rates as Effect Spore? 11% sleep, 10% para, 9% poison?), but its exact effect chance is only shared with Poison Sting, and I'm not confident enough that these numbers actually progress linearly to make a solid guess P:
- internal data doesn't give many clues on whether its BP will be the same in the main series, but we have no particular reason to believe it will change! other 60 BP moves seem normal here as far as I can tell
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series - it may lose its effect when it leaves Legends (but I really hope not!! it sounds so fun on Sneasler), or it may be that it doesn't need an effect ID because its stat-changing effect is stored separately? that said, note that some of the mined data was absolutely botched and they seem to have left the wrong amount of space for some columns (like types), so this and the other few moves that present themselves as having no secondary effects may actually just be anything with an effect ID greater than 255
- minor relevant context: Poison Sting's description in Legends doesn't say this and I assume it is actually the same as in canon, but part of its internal definition suggests that it may be meant to share its effect with Dire Claw going forward - this is based on the parts of the code I've been considering to correspond to the main series (same as other secondary effects and the stat modifiers), while the part of the code that is clearly Legends-specific has it grouped with other poison moves instead and that matches its description
I'm not totally confident in this, but it's pretty cool if so! It sounds like a super wacky early-game move and I would enjoy having it around
Cloaking itself in psychic energy, the user slams into the target. This may also raise the user’s defensive stats.
(targets one opponent; makes contact; user must recharge; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- notice that this and Dire Claw inexplicably have a recharge turn in their flags (the same as Hyper Beam clones like Giga Impact); this does not appear to interact with Legends mechanics and they have entirely different mechanisms for turn order, but it might just be an accident
- 100% chance to raise Defense by 1 stage (this behaves differently in Legends, which is why it says "may raise" and "defensive stats," but it is a 100% chance and it is only physical Defense as far as we're concerned)
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, but reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it
The user swaps its offensive and defensive stats.
(targets the user; appears to have absolutely no flags set)
We don't know anything about this in a main series context - it might well be exactly the same as Power Trick, which is the same type and doesn't exist in Legends, or it might be a special version of Power Trick, or it might work on both offensive and defensive stats
The user swings its stone axes at the target, aiming to land a critical hit. Stone splinters left behind by this attack continue to damage the target for several turns.
(targets one opponent; makes contact; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- in a Legends context, this has a 100% chance to set Stealth Rock, but Stealth Rock itself is very different here (it seems like it might be the same kind of thing as G-Max Volcalith and not at all type-based?); we don't know if it's more likely to mirror that directly or if it will be regular "offensive Stealth Rock"
- we don't know if this will translate exactly to the main series, but we do have good reason to believe it will be exactly the same as Ceaseless Edge but not the same as any existing canon move, and it is not expected to lose its effect entirely
The user attacks by wrapping the target in fierce winds brimming with love and hate. This move’s additional effects depend on the user’s form.
(targets one opponent; appears to have absolutely no flags set)
Main series context:
- currently has a 30% chance to raise Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed by 1 stage
- based on the other Storm moves, it might have a slightly higher BP than we expect (I have reasonable confidence that Tornadus and Thundurus's moves is that they could be anywhere from 95 to 105 BP and anywhere from 80 to 75 accuracy instead of strictly being 95/80 like here - my personal guess is 100 BP/80 acc - and this and Landorus's move currently match those two, so we might see them buffed in the same way)
- based on the other omniboost moves (Ancient Power, Silver Wind and Ominous Wind were all buffed to 20% in Legends), this 30% chance may be lowered in the main series - omniboosting is much weaker than we're used to in the context of Legends, so we can expect this move to feel pretty different in practice from how it's been made out
(To explain: there are only two stats to modify in Legends: one scale of stat stages for "offensive" modifiers and one for "defensive" modifiers, so every move that raises Attack also raises Special Attack and vice versa; stat stages themselves are most likely much less than a 50% boost; and moves that modify Speed do nothing special at all here, because there are no Speed stat modifiers at all, while raising action speed is reserved for moves with priority in the main series - we definitely know this move is going to be considered an omniboost in main series terms, but it's very likely that the effect chance and maybe its power)
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, but reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it
- we still don't know what the form differences do! Sticky Fingaaa brought up that one of the forms might be an omniboost to the user and the might have a chance to inflict an omnidebuff instead, which I quite like as a guess .w.
The user strengthens itself with a mysterious power. If it excels in offense, its offensive stats are raised. If it excels in defense, its defensive stats are raised.
(targets one opponent; appears to have absolutely no flags set)
Main series context:
- internally, it has a 100% chance to raise Attack by 1 stage (but be aware that this may be a default/only before its other effect)
- like I mentioned earlier, "offensive stats" and "defensive stats" are the only two stat stages that moves can modify in Legends, while the five distinct stats we know are not treated as such for modifiers - we don't really know from the wording, but while this could translate more simply as "raises either Attack or Defense, whichever is higher," I would not be surprised if its effect in the main series is to raise the user's most proficient stat (Beast Boost)
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, but reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it
The user rampages and spews vicious flames to inflict damage on the target, then becomes fixated on using this move.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- Don't be fooled by its BP, accuracy or PP - this is part of a set of moves that were all modified for Legends, because "becomes fixated on using this move" is a Legends-specific mechanic that stands in for a couple of others but behaves very differently
(To explain: it's sort of the closest thing to a Choice lock - and can even be induced by an item with "Choice" in its name - but it doesn't necessarily seem to lock the user in here? Its benefit is that the user picks one move to become much stronger than usual, but in return, the user takes more damage from attacks; I'm not sure if you actually have to keep picking that one move or if it's just that only the one move gets any benefit from it)
But, uh, there are some other 90 BP/85 acc/10 PP moves with exactly this same effect: Outrage and Petal Dance, so we can bet that this will be a straight clone of Outrage (but perhaps the first non-contact Outrage clone?) when it makes its way to the main series!
The user shrouds itself in water and slams into the target with its whole body to inflict damage. This also damages the user and raises the user’s action speed.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect; defrosts the user)
Main series context:
- this move's recoil is 33%
The following is very speculative, so please take it with a grain of salt, but: there's this one column I've been interpreting as an effect ID of sorts; all of the moves that share IDs in Legends also share their effects, and most moves are meaningfully grouped in intuitive ways, but there are some exceptions where moves that don't exist in Legends anyway have "effect IDs" that don't make sense or don't track with the moves that "share" them (including really weird and nonsensical ones - like, apparently Mystical Power and Toxic Spikes are the same P:)
This is the column that I mentioned only ranges from 0 to 255 in the datamine but might be being misrepresented by whoever exported it/might actually be meant to have more of a range than that, which has messed with my interpretation of some other moves - again, please take it with a grain of salt, but I've been using it as the basis of a lot of speculation and most of it is very readable and intuitive, so:
Wave Crash shares its "effect ID" with Sucker Punch, and it's unique to them and no other move.
This wouldn't necessarily mean anything, especially since Wave Crash's priority in the internal data is listed as 0 - but "raises the user's action speed" is an effect that is otherwise entirely exclusive to moves that have increased priority in the main series, and that gives me hope that this might not be a coincidence.
So... yeah, that's my wacky prediction for the day! There is a very real possibility that Wave Crash is a Sucker Punch variant that happens to have a slightly higher BP and recoil - probably no one quite guessed that before me? P: It feels like a longshot but I can't wait to see if I actually called this correctly
The user launches its amassed chlorophyll to inflict damage on the target. This also damages the user and lowers the user’s action speed.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- The recoil here is Mind Blown-style recoil for 1/2 of the user's maximum HP
- Despite what its BP and "lowering the user's action speed" might make you think, Chloroblast here is an exact copy of Steel Beam, which received the same changes when being copied over to a Legends context; this is clearly going to make its way to the main series as a Steel Beam clone
The user hurls giant chunks of ice at the target to inflict damage.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- The flinch rate is 30%!
- Most other flinching moves look like they're exactly the same as canon, but I would highlight that specifically Icicle Crash is just slightly weaker in Legends than the main series (80 BP instead of 85) while retaining its 90 accuracy and 10 PP. I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility that Mountain Gale, which is one of the strongest moves in Legends as-is, just might get a slight BP buff when translated back to the main series to go with it?
The user performs a dance to usher in victory. This raises the user’s offensive and defensive stats and increases the damage dealt by the user’s moves by 50 percent.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- This move sounds absolutely nuts, right? I know people are thinking that
but uhh, to reiterate that thing I said about what stat changes actually mean earlier, this is mostly a matter of a relatively common effect in the main series looking a whooole lot better by the mechanics system of Legends - internal data tells us that this move quite simply raises Attack and Defense by 1 stage and will probably be brought to the main series as a variation of Bulk Up (which is also 10 PP here, so this isn't "supposed" to be that much stronger than it).
- This is all still speculative, and there's definitely room for its added effect to be translated in a cool way! I've been assuming that being Primed (the status this move sets that boosts offenses) probably isn't meant to translate to the main series, since it's a pretty Legends-specific mechanic that I think is only really around because stat stages themselves work differently? but some people I know have guessed that it might be Bulk Up + Focus Energy or similar
As a point of reference, the only other move I know sets the Primed status is Double Hit, which is now a status move that does nothing else... but uh, probably we would be remiss to "translate" this back as literally as "main series Double Hit but it's Bulk Up!" P:
The user smashes into the target in a full-body tackle. This also lowers the user’s defensive stats.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect; punching move)
Main series context:
- The only stat stage modifier listed in the data is that it lowers Defense by 1 stage despite its description, so it's possible that that's how it will be used in canon -- but this move is also a perfect clone of Legends's take on Close Combat, in the same way that Chloroblast is Steel Beam and Raging Fury is Outrage! It might be the straight Close Combat clone people expect when it makes its way to the main series.
- Flags might not necessarily be final (remember the inexplicable recharge flags from those two at the beginning, remember that Springtide Storm inexplicably ignores Protect, and... it's something of an open secret that Clangorous Soul is a dance move - Game Freak still uses that flag with or without Oricorio - so it sorta stands out to me that Victory Dance isn't one either), so take the idea that this is a punching move with a grain of salt; the description pretty definitely doesn't make it sound like one
- The guesses I've seen the most are a Ground move for Ursaluna or a Rock move for Hisuian Arcanine? but I might be missing something obvious, so lemme know if it's more likely something else!
The user launches countless toxic barbs to inflict damage. This may also poison the target. This move’s power is doubled if the target has a status condition.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- The poison chance is 30%!
- Hex and Venoshock are both still 65 BP like we're used to, so the three Hex variants that are pointedly 60 instead will likely stay that way - I would not bank on this, Bitter Malice or Infernal Parade getting a BP change.
- Notably, Venoshock was modified to work like Hex in this game (works on all statuses); it's hard to be sure if Venoshock will stay that way forever going forward or if, in turn, this will be constrained to work only on Poison the next time we see it.
The user slashes the target with aura-enriched wings. This also raises the user’s action speed. This move has a heightened chance of landing a critical hit.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- Like I mentioned of Wave Crash, "raises the user's action speed" is specifically for priority moves in Legends - only priority moves and these two new ones have it, so it might be a hint that this will have priority in the main series?
- However, unlike Wave Crash, this move does not share its effect ID with Sucker Punch; instead, it's matched to the unrelated Worry Seed, which simply doesn't exist in Legends... for obvious reasons. P: Whether this move will have priority in any form, for any reason, has yet to be seen; it might well be a distinction one or both of these moves loses in the main series. I would hesitate to count on it for either of them, but even more so for this one, which has no obvious connection to other priority moves.
The user attacks its target with spine-chilling resentment. This may also leave the target with frostbite. This move’s power is doubled if the target has a status condition.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- This is exactly like Barb Barrage and here has a 30% chance to inflict frostbite; however, I should qualify this by noting that other moves also have a 30% chance to inflict frostbite but only have a 10% chance to inflict freeze, so please no one lose your hands assuming this will still be 30% freeze in the main series! It obviously won't be P:
The user makes its skin as hard as an iron shield, raising its defensive stats. Incoming moves also become more likely to miss.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- In Legends's internal data, this raises Defense by 1 stage and has no effect on evasion (the evasion thing is the new Obscured volatile, not literally Double Team - do not expect this to be an evasion move in the main series!); however, it shares its effect ID three ways Iron Defense and Acid Armor, which are also only +1 Defense in Legends but are +2 in the main series. I would fully expect this to translate as an exact clone of Iron Defense with no further changes, as... silly as that sounds for a Pokémon that already necessarily has Acid Armor from its pre-evolution.
... okay so maybe it'll get something new but my point is that we have no specific basis for educated guesses :'D
The user delivers an axe kick, then fires three arrows. This raises the chance of its future attacks landing critical hits and also lowers the target’s defensive stats.
(targets one opponent; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- important correction - when I was talking with my friends, I informed them that this was a reduction of -2 to Defense, like a physical Acid Spray; this was actually a mistake on my part and the effect is only -1 in Legends, which I want to make sure is known because what I said previously was spread around here; really sorry for the mistake ;-;
- anyway, uh! yeah, "lowers the target's defensive stats" here = -1 Defense only!
- um, the Snatch thing is. probably a typo. I would not count on this move being affected by Snatch, because it would be the only damaging move in the series with that distinction and also Snatch doesn't exist (same with all of the other flag mistakes: do note that absolutely none of those "errors" are relevant to Legends at all and there is very good reason for them not to have given attention to them)
The user attacks with myriad fireballs. This may also leave the target with a burn. This move’s power is doubled if the target has a status condition.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- once again a 30% chance of its effect like the other two Hex variants, and it will probably still be 60 BP in the main series!
- I'm... not going to lie, this might just be my favorite move here :'D It sounds really simple and elegant and super fun to abuse and I am here for it
The user slashes its shell blade at the target, aiming to land a critical hit. Shell splinters left behind by this attack will continue to damage the target for several turns.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- in a Legends context, this has a 100% chance to set Stealth Rock, but Stealth Rock itself is very different here (it seems like it might be the same kind of thing as G-Max Volcalith and not at all type-based?); we don't know if it's more likely to mirror that or if it will be regular offensive Stealth Rock
- we don't know if this will translate exactly to the main series, but we do have good reason to believe it will be exactly the same as Stone Axe but not the same as any existing canon move, and it is not expected to lose its effect
The user attacks with savagely cold winds that cause both body and spirit to tremble. This may also leave the target with frostbite.
targets one opponent; affected by Protect; can reach non-adjacent targets
Main series context:
- this is a 30% chance of frostbite, but like I said with Bitter Malice, that's probably going to be a 10% chance to freeze in the main series
- okay, I mentioned when Springtide Storm came up that this and Wildbolt Storm made me think they were going to have a different BP in canon! so the thing with these moves is:
Bleakwind Storm shares its unique effect ID with Hurricane, and Wildbolt Storm shares its own with Thunder - that makes me think they're meant as legitimate sidegrades to those moves. It just happens that Hurricane and Thunder have 100 BP and 75 accuracy in Legends, instead of 110 BP and 70 accuracy like in canon - Bleakwind Storm and Wildbolt Storm are probably only quite as "weak" as they are because they're meant as sidegrades to moves that are also weaker in this game.
This is really, really minor as a change, but I would put my most solid bet on 100 BP/80 accuracy (-10 and +10 relative to main series Hurricane and Thunder) to emphasize them as the midground/safer options they're supposed to be and differentiate Wildbolt Storm better from Thunderbolt. One could also take the translation very literally, note that Bleakwind Storm is currently 5 BP less and 5% more accurate than Hurricane, and assume it will make its way to the main series as a 105 BP/75 acc move? but those feel like weird numbers for a move to me, and I am personally leaning 100/80 purely on intuition (sorry if I am wrong).
- other note: this sharing its unique effect ID with Hurricane (despite the two having a completely different secondary effect in Legends) might actually imply it will be more of a straight copy of Hurricane - perfect accuracy in rain + 30% chance of confusion instead of 10% freeze - when it makes its way to the main series? I would not dismiss the possibility!
So anyway, my personal guess is that it will be 100 BP/80 acc/5 PP + can't miss in rain + either 10% freeze chance or 30% confuse chance instead of being exactly what it looks like here.
The user summons a thunderous tempest and savagely attacks with lightning and wind. This may also leave the target with paralysis.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- That's a 30% chance to paralyze in the data!
- All of the predictions I made above hold - this is clearly meant as a Thunder sidegrade and a midground between Thunder and Thunderbolt, so I would pretty confidently bet on 100 BP/80 acc/can't miss in rain as well as its established secondary effect (30% to paralyze).
The user attacks by wrapping the target in fierce winds and searingly hot sand. This also leaves the target with a burn.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- "This also leaves the target with a burn." (inhales) this is an insanely misleading description jsdhfkjsg everyone I know panicked when they read this
- like the other Forces of Nature, this is still a 30% chance to burn as far as I can tell (if you want a 100% chance, I suspect you check out the Legends version of Magma Storm, which actually is exactly what it sounds like - I'm betting this is a copy/pasting error from basing its description on that!)
- um, but. you may still feel free to panic if you want because there was a reason they didn't give Landorus Scorching Sands last I checked :'D
- This is ooone last move I'm guessing will be 100 BP instead of 95 BP in the main series
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, which... in this case actually might be important? because burning is a completely normal effect, and the other moves that just burn are all a pretty consistent group of effect IDs - reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it, but I do think it's worth drawing attention to it for this of all moves, because there's an effect ID it "should" have that we know was exported correctly in other cases, and the absence is conspicuous; it might be a completely different effect, or it might be planned to have no secondary effect at all in the main series and the burning thing is just for Legends (basically "they want a Landorus signature for Legends, and they want it to match the other Forces of Nature for Legends, but they don't actually want to give Landorus a broken move and they do know better, so it's a temporary thing for Legends only?")
It's hard to get a read on this one because it's anomalous in a lot of ways, but um. yeah no they didn't give Landorus 95 BP offensive Wisp and you do not need to worry about that possibility specifically
The user heals its own status conditions and restores its HP. Incoming moves also become more likely to miss.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch and Heal Block)
Main series context:
- reiterating that we don't know what has this and I might be completely off base, but my best guess from the name was Ursaluna, and I think that actually sounds pretty interesting because of the fact that it has Guts (which makes curing status actually kind of detrimental in the main series) but is also meant to have a valid option that isn't Guts (Bulletproof) and also doesn't have any better way to reflect Guts at all in Legends; in theory and from its description alone, this sounds like a pretty cool choice for it and an interesting way to give it diverse options when it makes its way to the main series!
- like I mentioned with Shelter, the evasion thing is not actually a Double Team-style stat increase but simply the Obscured status, and it seems very likely to me that it is not going to keep that evasion effect in the main series
- ...
- so the stupid thing is that yes, as previously reported, the data suggests this restores HP by 50%, and yes, it is basically Slack Off + Refresh
- ... which sounds EVEN MORE comically broken if we assume this move is for Ursaluna, because holy heck was that ungodly (but very cute actually! I love its design) thing not strong enough--
BUT
I mentioned I was looking at "effect IDs" earlier, and there is one thing I would like to highlight! Like I said earlier, moves that aren't actually in Legends are sometimes consistent and meaningful about their IDs but sometimes feel completely meaningless and random. This might be because of the improperly exported data (there are supposed to be way more than 255 effect IDs but they cut them off improperly), or it might be because the moves aren't here anyway and Game Freak understandably didn't care about making the unused ones hold meaning to amateur onlookers like me; this could be a complete misinterpretation of data that wasn't supposed to be read anyway, so please take it with a grain of salt!
However, the thing I found interesting is that Lunar Blessing's ID is shared with the unused Aqua Ring, so as comically absurd as its 50% recovery sounds, that might not be for the main series - just a guess, but I could certainly see this move being a much milder combination of the already-good Refresh with the not-so-good Aqua Ring, while being 50% recovery is just slightly comical overcompensation for the absence of Aqua Ring in a single-player environment [where Ursaluna is allowed to be as broken as it wants because it's either scary enemy material or a fun power trip for the player].
I saw 50% recovery + Refresh (+ Obscured status) and absolutely flipped, but the Aqua Ring comparison makes this move feel more interesting and balanced in my eyes and I would be interested to see if it turns out more like that in the main series - that's my best guess, at least!
The user lifts its spirits, healing its own status conditions and raising its offensive and defensive stats.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- Like Victory Dance, this isn't actually an omniboost outside of Legends mechanics - this one is actually a Calm Mind variant (it raises Special Attack and Special Defense by 1 stage)!
- If it keeps the status-curing effect in the main series as well, that actually sounds really freaking good on its own - Calm Mind + Refresh in one move is absolutely incredible compression and I do not doubt that whatever gets this will lean heavily on it to make its mark O:
- Interestingly, most of the people I know had the impression that this one isn't even a signature move, but rather a move that could potentially see wider distribution, since there are already more new moves here than new Pokémon anyway? That's kind of a crazy thought in itself if it stays Calm Mind + Refresh in the main series, though - really curious about what happens with this one all around!
m...mostly needed somewhere to put it so I could just conveniently link a post instead of screenshotting all of this from my sandbox P:
but I was speculating a whole bunch on what the new moves might look like when they make their way to the main series, so I have their raw information (category/stats/flags) from the datamine and their established descriptions, and I will be elaborating on them all with the stat changes and effect chances they are stated to have in the data (some of which I suspect are meant to be used for a main series context, because stat changes work a bit differently in Legends - will get to that later in the post) amd some speculative comments on what they'll look like when these Pokémon make it to the main series.
I hope this is interesting! Some parts of it are more speculative than others, but I'm pretty confident in most of these predictions and they're all based very solidly on comparisons to things we definitely know and the data of other moves (some that changed and some that didn't), so it should be helpful as a point of reference if nothing else!
I'm posting this without reading literally any of the surrounding posts because I don't want story spoilers myself </3 I'm sorry if this is coming at a weird time or anything but I truly do not want to read the context I just drafted this in my sandbox
I may not write back if you respond to me I'm sorry
Dire Claw (probably a Poison-type move for Sneasler)
Physical / 60 BP / 100% accurate / 15 PP
The user lashes out at the target with ruinous claws, aiming to land a critical hit. This may also leave the target poisoned, paralyzed, or drowsy.
(targets one opponent; makes contact; user must recharge; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- notice that this and Psyshield Bash inexplicably have a recharge turn in their flags (the same as Hyper Beam clones like Giga Impact); this does not appear to interact with Legends mechanics and they have entirely different mechanisms for turn order, but it might just be an accident
- appears to have roughly 30% chance to activate (possibly the exact same status rates as Effect Spore? 11% sleep, 10% para, 9% poison?), but its exact effect chance is only shared with Poison Sting, and I'm not confident enough that these numbers actually progress linearly to make a solid guess P:
- internal data doesn't give many clues on whether its BP will be the same in the main series, but we have no particular reason to believe it will change! other 60 BP moves seem normal here as far as I can tell
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series - it may lose its effect when it leaves Legends (but I really hope not!! it sounds so fun on Sneasler), or it may be that it doesn't need an effect ID because its stat-changing effect is stored separately? that said, note that some of the mined data was absolutely botched and they seem to have left the wrong amount of space for some columns (like types), so this and the other few moves that present themselves as having no secondary effects may actually just be anything with an effect ID greater than 255
- minor relevant context: Poison Sting's description in Legends doesn't say this and I assume it is actually the same as in canon, but part of its internal definition suggests that it may be meant to share its effect with Dire Claw going forward - this is based on the parts of the code I've been considering to correspond to the main series (same as other secondary effects and the stat modifiers), while the part of the code that is clearly Legends-specific has it grouped with other poison moves instead and that matches its description
I'm not totally confident in this, but it's pretty cool if so! It sounds like a super wacky early-game move and I would enjoy having it around
Psyshield Bash (probably a Psychic-type move for Wyrdeer)
Physical / 70 BP / 90% accurate / 10 PP
Cloaking itself in psychic energy, the user slams into the target. This may also raise the user’s defensive stats.
(targets one opponent; makes contact; user must recharge; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- notice that this and Dire Claw inexplicably have a recharge turn in their flags (the same as Hyper Beam clones like Giga Impact); this does not appear to interact with Legends mechanics and they have entirely different mechanisms for turn order, but it might just be an accident
- 100% chance to raise Defense by 1 stage (this behaves differently in Legends, which is why it says "may raise" and "defensive stats," but it is a 100% chance and it is only physical Defense as far as we're concerned)
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, but reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it
Power Shift (confirmed Normal-type but I don't know what has it)
Status / -- BP / -- accuracy / 10 PP
The user swaps its offensive and defensive stats.
(targets the user; appears to have absolutely no flags set)
We don't know anything about this in a main series context - it might well be exactly the same as Power Trick, which is the same type and doesn't exist in Legends, or it might be a special version of Power Trick, or it might work on both offensive and defensive stats
Stone Axe (a Rock-type move known by Kleavor; probably signature)
Physical / 65 BP / 90% accurate / 15 PP
The user swings its stone axes at the target, aiming to land a critical hit. Stone splinters left behind by this attack continue to damage the target for several turns.
(targets one opponent; makes contact; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- in a Legends context, this has a 100% chance to set Stealth Rock, but Stealth Rock itself is very different here (it seems like it might be the same kind of thing as G-Max Volcalith and not at all type-based?); we don't know if it's more likely to mirror that directly or if it will be regular "offensive Stealth Rock"
- we don't know if this will translate exactly to the main series, but we do have good reason to believe it will be exactly the same as Ceaseless Edge but not the same as any existing canon move, and it is not expected to lose its effect entirely
Springtide Storm (probably a Fairy-type move for Enamorus)
Special / 95 BP / 80% accurate / 5 PP
The user attacks by wrapping the target in fierce winds brimming with love and hate. This move’s additional effects depend on the user’s form.
(targets one opponent; appears to have absolutely no flags set)
Main series context:
- currently has a 30% chance to raise Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed by 1 stage
- based on the other Storm moves, it might have a slightly higher BP than we expect (I have reasonable confidence that Tornadus and Thundurus's moves is that they could be anywhere from 95 to 105 BP and anywhere from 80 to 75 accuracy instead of strictly being 95/80 like here - my personal guess is 100 BP/80 acc - and this and Landorus's move currently match those two, so we might see them buffed in the same way)
- based on the other omniboost moves (Ancient Power, Silver Wind and Ominous Wind were all buffed to 20% in Legends), this 30% chance may be lowered in the main series - omniboosting is much weaker than we're used to in the context of Legends, so we can expect this move to feel pretty different in practice from how it's been made out
(To explain: there are only two stats to modify in Legends: one scale of stat stages for "offensive" modifiers and one for "defensive" modifiers, so every move that raises Attack also raises Special Attack and vice versa; stat stages themselves are most likely much less than a 50% boost; and moves that modify Speed do nothing special at all here, because there are no Speed stat modifiers at all, while raising action speed is reserved for moves with priority in the main series - we definitely know this move is going to be considered an omniboost in main series terms, but it's very likely that the effect chance and maybe its power)
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, but reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it
- we still don't know what the form differences do! Sticky Fingaaa brought up that one of the forms might be an omniboost to the user and the might have a chance to inflict an omnidebuff instead, which I quite like as a guess .w.
Mystical Power (we don't know its type or what has it, but it's notably not Normal-type, which would have been my first guess from its description - maybe Psychic...?)
Special / 70 BP / 90% accurate / 10 PP
The user strengthens itself with a mysterious power. If it excels in offense, its offensive stats are raised. If it excels in defense, its defensive stats are raised.
(targets one opponent; appears to have absolutely no flags set)
Main series context:
- internally, it has a 100% chance to raise Attack by 1 stage (but be aware that this may be a default/only before its other effect)
- like I mentioned earlier, "offensive stats" and "defensive stats" are the only two stat stages that moves can modify in Legends, while the five distinct stats we know are not treated as such for modifiers - we don't really know from the wording, but while this could translate more simply as "raises either Attack or Defense, whichever is higher," I would not be surprised if its effect in the main series is to raise the user's most proficient stat (Beast Boost)
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, but reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it
Raging Fury (we don't know its type or what has it, but it sounds Fire-type and might be meant for Arcanine?)
Physical / 90 BP / 85% accurate / 10 PP
The user rampages and spews vicious flames to inflict damage on the target, then becomes fixated on using this move.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- Don't be fooled by its BP, accuracy or PP - this is part of a set of moves that were all modified for Legends, because "becomes fixated on using this move" is a Legends-specific mechanic that stands in for a couple of others but behaves very differently
(To explain: it's sort of the closest thing to a Choice lock - and can even be induced by an item with "Choice" in its name - but it doesn't necessarily seem to lock the user in here? Its benefit is that the user picks one move to become much stronger than usual, but in return, the user takes more damage from attacks; I'm not sure if you actually have to keep picking that one move or if it's just that only the one move gets any benefit from it)
But, uh, there are some other 90 BP/85 acc/10 PP moves with exactly this same effect: Outrage and Petal Dance, so we can bet that this will be a straight clone of Outrage (but perhaps the first non-contact Outrage clone?) when it makes its way to the main series!
Wave Crash (probably a Water-type move for Basculegion)
Physical / 75 BP / 100% accurate / 10 PP
The user shrouds itself in water and slams into the target with its whole body to inflict damage. This also damages the user and raises the user’s action speed.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect; defrosts the user)
Main series context:
- this move's recoil is 33%
The following is very speculative, so please take it with a grain of salt, but: there's this one column I've been interpreting as an effect ID of sorts; all of the moves that share IDs in Legends also share their effects, and most moves are meaningfully grouped in intuitive ways, but there are some exceptions where moves that don't exist in Legends anyway have "effect IDs" that don't make sense or don't track with the moves that "share" them (including really weird and nonsensical ones - like, apparently Mystical Power and Toxic Spikes are the same P:)
This is the column that I mentioned only ranges from 0 to 255 in the datamine but might be being misrepresented by whoever exported it/might actually be meant to have more of a range than that, which has messed with my interpretation of some other moves - again, please take it with a grain of salt, but I've been using it as the basis of a lot of speculation and most of it is very readable and intuitive, so:
Wave Crash shares its "effect ID" with Sucker Punch, and it's unique to them and no other move.
This wouldn't necessarily mean anything, especially since Wave Crash's priority in the internal data is listed as 0 - but "raises the user's action speed" is an effect that is otherwise entirely exclusive to moves that have increased priority in the main series, and that gives me hope that this might not be a coincidence.
So... yeah, that's my wacky prediction for the day! There is a very real possibility that Wave Crash is a Sucker Punch variant that happens to have a slightly higher BP and recoil - probably no one quite guessed that before me? P: It feels like a longshot but I can't wait to see if I actually called this correctly
Chloroblast (probably a Grass-type move for Hisuian Electrode)
Special / 120 BP / 95% accurate / 5 PP
The user launches its amassed chlorophyll to inflict damage on the target. This also damages the user and lowers the user’s action speed.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- The recoil here is Mind Blown-style recoil for 1/2 of the user's maximum HP
- Despite what its BP and "lowering the user's action speed" might make you think, Chloroblast here is an exact copy of Steel Beam, which received the same changes when being copied over to a Legends context; this is clearly going to make its way to the main series as a Steel Beam clone
Mountain Gale (probably an Ice-type move for Hisuian Avalugg)
Physical / 100 BP / 85% accurate / 5 PP
The user hurls giant chunks of ice at the target to inflict damage.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- The flinch rate is 30%!
- Most other flinching moves look like they're exactly the same as canon, but I would highlight that specifically Icicle Crash is just slightly weaker in Legends than the main series (80 BP instead of 85) while retaining its 90 accuracy and 10 PP. I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility that Mountain Gale, which is one of the strongest moves in Legends as-is, just might get a slight BP buff when translated back to the main series to go with it?
Victory Dance (probably a Fighting-type move for Hisuian Lilligant)
Status / -- BP / -- accuracy / 10 PP
The user performs a dance to usher in victory. This raises the user’s offensive and defensive stats and increases the damage dealt by the user’s moves by 50 percent.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- This move sounds absolutely nuts, right? I know people are thinking that
but uhh, to reiterate that thing I said about what stat changes actually mean earlier, this is mostly a matter of a relatively common effect in the main series looking a whooole lot better by the mechanics system of Legends - internal data tells us that this move quite simply raises Attack and Defense by 1 stage and will probably be brought to the main series as a variation of Bulk Up (which is also 10 PP here, so this isn't "supposed" to be that much stronger than it).
- This is all still speculative, and there's definitely room for its added effect to be translated in a cool way! I've been assuming that being Primed (the status this move sets that boosts offenses) probably isn't meant to translate to the main series, since it's a pretty Legends-specific mechanic that I think is only really around because stat stages themselves work differently? but some people I know have guessed that it might be Bulk Up + Focus Energy or similar
As a point of reference, the only other move I know sets the Primed status is Double Hit, which is now a status move that does nothing else... but uh, probably we would be remiss to "translate" this back as literally as "main series Double Hit but it's Bulk Up!" P:
Headlong Rush (I do not know what type this is or what has it)
Physical / 100 BP / 100% accurate / 5 PP
The user smashes into the target in a full-body tackle. This also lowers the user’s defensive stats.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect; punching move)
Main series context:
- The only stat stage modifier listed in the data is that it lowers Defense by 1 stage despite its description, so it's possible that that's how it will be used in canon -- but this move is also a perfect clone of Legends's take on Close Combat, in the same way that Chloroblast is Steel Beam and Raging Fury is Outrage! It might be the straight Close Combat clone people expect when it makes its way to the main series.
- Flags might not necessarily be final (remember the inexplicable recharge flags from those two at the beginning, remember that Springtide Storm inexplicably ignores Protect, and... it's something of an open secret that Clangorous Soul is a dance move - Game Freak still uses that flag with or without Oricorio - so it sorta stands out to me that Victory Dance isn't one either), so take the idea that this is a punching move with a grain of salt; the description pretty definitely doesn't make it sound like one
- The guesses I've seen the most are a Ground move for Ursaluna or a Rock move for Hisuian Arcanine? but I might be missing something obvious, so lemme know if it's more likely something else!
Barb Barrage (probably a Poison move for Overqwil)
Physical / 60 BP / 100% accurate / 15 PP
The user launches countless toxic barbs to inflict damage. This may also poison the target. This move’s power is doubled if the target has a status condition.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- The poison chance is 30%!
- Hex and Venoshock are both still 65 BP like we're used to, so the three Hex variants that are pointedly 60 instead will likely stay that way - I would not bank on this, Bitter Malice or Infernal Parade getting a BP change.
- Notably, Venoshock was modified to work like Hex in this game (works on all statuses); it's hard to be sure if Venoshock will stay that way forever going forward or if, in turn, this will be constrained to work only on Poison the next time we see it.
Esper Wing (probably a Psychic move for Hisuian Braviary)
Special / 75 BP / 90% accurate / 10 PP
The user slashes the target with aura-enriched wings. This also raises the user’s action speed. This move has a heightened chance of landing a critical hit.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- Like I mentioned of Wave Crash, "raises the user's action speed" is specifically for priority moves in Legends - only priority moves and these two new ones have it, so it might be a hint that this will have priority in the main series?
- However, unlike Wave Crash, this move does not share its effect ID with Sucker Punch; instead, it's matched to the unrelated Worry Seed, which simply doesn't exist in Legends... for obvious reasons. P: Whether this move will have priority in any form, for any reason, has yet to be seen; it might well be a distinction one or both of these moves loses in the main series. I would hesitate to count on it for either of them, but even more so for this one, which has no obvious connection to other priority moves.
Bitter Malice (probably a Ghost move for Hisuian Zoroark)
Special / 60 BP / 100% accurate / 15 PP
The user attacks its target with spine-chilling resentment. This may also leave the target with frostbite. This move’s power is doubled if the target has a status condition.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- This is exactly like Barb Barrage and here has a 30% chance to inflict frostbite; however, I should qualify this by noting that other moves also have a 30% chance to inflict frostbite but only have a 10% chance to inflict freeze, so please no one lose your hands assuming this will still be 30% freeze in the main series! It obviously won't be P:
Shelter (probably a Steel move for Hisuian Goodra)
Status / -- BP / -- accuracy / 10 PP
The user makes its skin as hard as an iron shield, raising its defensive stats. Incoming moves also become more likely to miss.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- In Legends's internal data, this raises Defense by 1 stage and has no effect on evasion (the evasion thing is the new Obscured volatile, not literally Double Team - do not expect this to be an evasion move in the main series!); however, it shares its effect ID three ways Iron Defense and Acid Armor, which are also only +1 Defense in Legends but are +2 in the main series. I would fully expect this to translate as an exact clone of Iron Defense with no further changes, as... silly as that sounds for a Pokémon that already necessarily has Acid Armor from its pre-evolution.
... okay so maybe it'll get something new but my point is that we have no specific basis for educated guesses :'D
Triple Arrows (probably a Fighting move for Hisuian Decidueye)
Physical / 50 BP / 100% accurate / 15 PP
The user delivers an axe kick, then fires three arrows. This raises the chance of its future attacks landing critical hits and also lowers the target’s defensive stats.
(targets one opponent; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- important correction - when I was talking with my friends, I informed them that this was a reduction of -2 to Defense, like a physical Acid Spray; this was actually a mistake on my part and the effect is only -1 in Legends, which I want to make sure is known because what I said previously was spread around here; really sorry for the mistake ;-;
- anyway, uh! yeah, "lowers the target's defensive stats" here = -1 Defense only!
- um, the Snatch thing is. probably a typo. I would not count on this move being affected by Snatch, because it would be the only damaging move in the series with that distinction and also Snatch doesn't exist (same with all of the other flag mistakes: do note that absolutely none of those "errors" are relevant to Legends at all and there is very good reason for them not to have given attention to them)
Infernal Parade (probably a Fire or Ghost move for Hisuian Typhlosion - I've seen it reported as Ghost but I'm not sure if that's confirmed)
Special / 60 BP / 100% accurate / 15 PP
The user attacks with myriad fireballs. This may also leave the target with a burn. This move’s power is doubled if the target has a status condition.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- once again a 30% chance of its effect like the other two Hex variants, and it will probably still be 60 BP in the main series!
- I'm... not going to lie, this might just be my favorite move here :'D It sounds really simple and elegant and super fun to abuse and I am here for it
Ceaseless Edge (probably a Dark-type move for Hisuian Samurott)
Physical / 65 BP / 90% accurate / 15 PP
The user slashes its shell blade at the target, aiming to land a critical hit. Shell splinters left behind by this attack will continue to damage the target for several turns.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- +1 critical hit rate
- in a Legends context, this has a 100% chance to set Stealth Rock, but Stealth Rock itself is very different here (it seems like it might be the same kind of thing as G-Max Volcalith and not at all type-based?); we don't know if it's more likely to mirror that or if it will be regular offensive Stealth Rock
- we don't know if this will translate exactly to the main series, but we do have good reason to believe it will be exactly the same as Stone Axe but not the same as any existing canon move, and it is not expected to lose its effect
Bleakwind Storm (probably a Flying move for Tornadus)
Special / 95 BP / 80% accurate / 5 PP
The user attacks with savagely cold winds that cause both body and spirit to tremble. This may also leave the target with frostbite.
targets one opponent; affected by Protect; can reach non-adjacent targets
Main series context:
- this is a 30% chance of frostbite, but like I said with Bitter Malice, that's probably going to be a 10% chance to freeze in the main series
- okay, I mentioned when Springtide Storm came up that this and Wildbolt Storm made me think they were going to have a different BP in canon! so the thing with these moves is:
Bleakwind Storm shares its unique effect ID with Hurricane, and Wildbolt Storm shares its own with Thunder - that makes me think they're meant as legitimate sidegrades to those moves. It just happens that Hurricane and Thunder have 100 BP and 75 accuracy in Legends, instead of 110 BP and 70 accuracy like in canon - Bleakwind Storm and Wildbolt Storm are probably only quite as "weak" as they are because they're meant as sidegrades to moves that are also weaker in this game.
This is really, really minor as a change, but I would put my most solid bet on 100 BP/80 accuracy (-10 and +10 relative to main series Hurricane and Thunder) to emphasize them as the midground/safer options they're supposed to be and differentiate Wildbolt Storm better from Thunderbolt. One could also take the translation very literally, note that Bleakwind Storm is currently 5 BP less and 5% more accurate than Hurricane, and assume it will make its way to the main series as a 105 BP/75 acc move? but those feel like weird numbers for a move to me, and I am personally leaning 100/80 purely on intuition (sorry if I am wrong).
- other note: this sharing its unique effect ID with Hurricane (despite the two having a completely different secondary effect in Legends) might actually imply it will be more of a straight copy of Hurricane - perfect accuracy in rain + 30% chance of confusion instead of 10% freeze - when it makes its way to the main series? I would not dismiss the possibility!
So anyway, my personal guess is that it will be 100 BP/80 acc/5 PP + can't miss in rain + either 10% freeze chance or 30% confuse chance instead of being exactly what it looks like here.
Wildbolt Storm (probably an Electric move for Thundurus)
Special / 95 BP / 80% accurate / 5 PP
The user summons a thunderous tempest and savagely attacks with lightning and wind. This may also leave the target with paralysis.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- That's a 30% chance to paralyze in the data!
- All of the predictions I made above hold - this is clearly meant as a Thunder sidegrade and a midground between Thunder and Thunderbolt, so I would pretty confidently bet on 100 BP/80 acc/can't miss in rain as well as its established secondary effect (30% to paralyze).
Sandsear Storm (probably a Ground move for Landorus)
Special / 95 BP / 80% accurate / 5 PP
The user attacks by wrapping the target in fierce winds and searingly hot sand. This also leaves the target with a burn.
(targets one opponent; affected by Protect)
Main series context:
- "This also leaves the target with a burn." (inhales) this is an insanely misleading description jsdhfkjsg everyone I know panicked when they read this
- like the other Forces of Nature, this is still a 30% chance to burn as far as I can tell (if you want a 100% chance, I suspect you check out the Legends version of Magma Storm, which actually is exactly what it sounds like - I'm betting this is a copy/pasting error from basing its description on that!)
- This is ooone last move I'm guessing will be 100 BP instead of 95 BP in the main series
- Suspiciously, this is grouped with moves that do not have secondary effects in the main series, which... in this case actually might be important? because burning is a completely normal effect, and the other moves that just burn are all a pretty consistent group of effect IDs - reiterating that we don't know if that's true in the data itself or if it's a mistake on the part of whoever exported it, but I do think it's worth drawing attention to it for this of all moves, because there's an effect ID it "should" have that we know was exported correctly in other cases, and the absence is conspicuous; it might be a completely different effect, or it might be planned to have no secondary effect at all in the main series and the burning thing is just for Legends (basically "they want a Landorus signature for Legends, and they want it to match the other Forces of Nature for Legends, but they don't actually want to give Landorus a broken move and they do know better, so it's a temporary thing for Legends only?")
It's hard to get a read on this one because it's anomalous in a lot of ways, but um. yeah no they didn't give Landorus 95 BP offensive Wisp and you do not need to worry about that possibility specifically
Lunar Blessing (we don't know what type this is or what has it)
-- BP / -- accuracy / 10 PP
The user heals its own status conditions and restores its HP. Incoming moves also become more likely to miss.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch and Heal Block)
Main series context:
- reiterating that we don't know what has this and I might be completely off base, but my best guess from the name was Ursaluna, and I think that actually sounds pretty interesting because of the fact that it has Guts (which makes curing status actually kind of detrimental in the main series) but is also meant to have a valid option that isn't Guts (Bulletproof) and also doesn't have any better way to reflect Guts at all in Legends; in theory and from its description alone, this sounds like a pretty cool choice for it and an interesting way to give it diverse options when it makes its way to the main series!
- like I mentioned with Shelter, the evasion thing is not actually a Double Team-style stat increase but simply the Obscured status, and it seems very likely to me that it is not going to keep that evasion effect in the main series
- ...
- so the stupid thing is that yes, as previously reported, the data suggests this restores HP by 50%, and yes, it is basically Slack Off + Refresh
- ... which sounds EVEN MORE comically broken if we assume this move is for Ursaluna, because holy heck was that ungodly (but very cute actually! I love its design) thing not strong enough--
BUT
I mentioned I was looking at "effect IDs" earlier, and there is one thing I would like to highlight! Like I said earlier, moves that aren't actually in Legends are sometimes consistent and meaningful about their IDs but sometimes feel completely meaningless and random. This might be because of the improperly exported data (there are supposed to be way more than 255 effect IDs but they cut them off improperly), or it might be because the moves aren't here anyway and Game Freak understandably didn't care about making the unused ones hold meaning to amateur onlookers like me; this could be a complete misinterpretation of data that wasn't supposed to be read anyway, so please take it with a grain of salt!
However, the thing I found interesting is that Lunar Blessing's ID is shared with the unused Aqua Ring, so as comically absurd as its 50% recovery sounds, that might not be for the main series - just a guess, but I could certainly see this move being a much milder combination of the already-good Refresh with the not-so-good Aqua Ring, while being 50% recovery is just slightly comical overcompensation for the absence of Aqua Ring in a single-player environment [where Ursaluna is allowed to be as broken as it wants because it's either scary enemy material or a fun power trip for the player].
I saw 50% recovery + Refresh (+ Obscured status) and absolutely flipped, but the Aqua Ring comparison makes this move feel more interesting and balanced in my eyes and I would be interested to see if it turns out more like that in the main series - that's my best guess, at least!
Take Heart (we don't know what type this is or what has it)
Status / -- BP / -- accuracy / 10 PP
The user lifts its spirits, healing its own status conditions and raising its offensive and defensive stats.
(targets the user; affected by Snatch)
Main series context:
- Like Victory Dance, this isn't actually an omniboost outside of Legends mechanics - this one is actually a Calm Mind variant (it raises Special Attack and Special Defense by 1 stage)!
- If it keeps the status-curing effect in the main series as well, that actually sounds really freaking good on its own - Calm Mind + Refresh in one move is absolutely incredible compression and I do not doubt that whatever gets this will lean heavily on it to make its mark O:
- Interestingly, most of the people I know had the impression that this one isn't even a signature move, but rather a move that could potentially see wider distribution, since there are already more new moves here than new Pokémon anyway? That's kind of a crazy thought in itself if it stays Calm Mind + Refresh in the main series, though - really curious about what happens with this one all around!
If I can be frank in return, i do understand your point. My issue with Decidueye is it feels to me like it got everything stacked against it and the situation itself just feels really disappointing. It feels like it got a worse statline, no new ability, a worse typing, outclassed by older Pokemon with the same typing, outclassed by other Pokemon of the same typing in it's debut. It marries a good design with a lot of problems that really make a regional variant feel bad. I realise it's too much to expect every Pokemon to be good. That would be impossible. I just feel like everything coming together on H-Decidueye makes it feel disappointing on a noticeable scale
It does seem like a better Hex. And you know what I'm here for it.
I'm perfectly fine with not liking it on personal level, there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has designs or "archetypes" they like, some people love fast glass cannons, some people like stall
But just going all out saying that "a pokemon sucks because it wont be meta defining" is pretty pointless, both on the point that this game is not going to reflect the actual mainline anyway, and off the fact that well... *even* if it was Meganium tier, even meganium-tier pokemon have had usability in pokemon games, as just good early pokemon, or temporary team members, or "patch via TM", because one of the perks of how easy pokemon games are is that well, pretty much everything works in this.
Notably for starters I think we're just spoiled by the fact most generations have had 1 or more starters that were actually meta defining in their generation. Notably Greninja, Incineroar and now Cinderace AND Rillaboom managed to basically warp metas around them, but these are very high standards to set.
We make memes of Meganium cause the poor guy is basically the only starter who never made it out of the depths of untiered I think, but in general even the worse of the starters found some usability somewhere down in NU/RU, mainly due to "starter status" and having higher BST than a lot of other pokemon.
Remember the good days of when people would evolve Butterfree to beat Brock? Is Butterfree a good pokemon? No it actually fucking sucks and there's a million better options even in gen 1, but, that doesn't mean it won't do its job.
I just don't see the necessity to always think "it's a worse X". Each pokemon is its own thing. Unless it's Caterpie, good chance it'll be fine to take in game, won't make the game harder than it needs to, and will have some use somewhere in competitive.
(And notably, No, i think H-Decidueye might be a fine mid-tier pokemon, as pointed earlier a phisical attacker with above average attack, decent speed tier, resistant to stealth rock and immune to contact effects can make it a strong scarfer that doesnt get punished when spamming U-turn for example).
On different note, I really like the design of these moves. Extra damage on statused enemy AND chance to status makes them basically better Hex, where "just switch out" is actually not the easy play.
I feel like we've grown a little off topic when talking about power levels, but just to throw in my 2 cents, we have to remember that a pokemon's stat spread consists of only 6 numbers, that's it, and there are nearly 1000 pokemon now... so it's dang near impossible to make anything new that isn't immediately inferior or immediately superior, when compared to what exists. Same goes for moves. Sometimes I feel the series would have been better off if they had never set this expectation of transferring all your pokemon forward in the first place, and instead made every gen a stand alone game with ~150 pokemon. Then, it would be so much easier to balance, innovate, more pokemon would shine in their respective generation, and the roster bloat that eventually lead to dexit would never have been an issue. They could even do occasional spin-offs that remix the generations, like PLA, and we'd be like, "Wow! We can have Snorlax vs Drapion in this game??" and it would be a fun change of pace and nostalgia. Someone would probably fantasize about, "Hey, what if they got all the pokemon in one game?" and we'd be like, "Pfft, yeah cool, but that's impossible."
Does anyone know if we can get Scizor in this or just Kleavor?
Also, the location of either evolutionary item would be appreciated.
Also, the location of either evolutionary item would be appreciated.
Scizor is in this game's Dex and even has a dex entry so I assume it's very much available in some form of another and likely has its evo item, maybe it's the same one that Steelix needs since Steelix is in this game too.
Yeah that's a definite point the expectation of all Pokemon being transferable definitely backed them into a corner. Though the lack of it earlier may not have lead to the franchise's longevity though we can't really say what would have happened in that alternate timeline
Metal Coat is still in the game, and just acts like an evolution stone now. You get the item for Kleavor from a sidequest, haven't come across any Metal Coats in the wild.
You can buy evolution items from a shop in the town using points you get from returning lost bags in the world. Kleavor and Ursaluna's items are missing from this, though.