np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Roserade is fragile. A silk scarf payback does 38.16% - 45.39% to max/max Rotom. What you don't seem to get is not that the scouting of U-turn is good, it is what makes it almost untouchable.

Leaving the switch-in to take the full brunt of the incoming attack, what's your point? U-turn isn't gamebreaking in any way, it is simply a superior option to switching that does a bit of damage and takes up a moveslot, whilst leaving the user potentially vulnerable to pseudo-status traits such as Flame Body, Poison Point and Static.

And another thing: from a momentum perspective, slower U-turn > faster U-turn. It was for this reason that I made my Crobat purposefully slower than other Crobats whilst briefly using one as a lead for one of my teams, and I never ended up regretting it.

 

[yokie]

Roserade is fragile. A silk scarf payback does 38.16% - 45.39% to max/max Rotom. What you don't seem to get is not that the scouting of U-turn is good, it is what makes it almost untouchable.

With 252 HP EVs, Roserade's nice SpD base stat, and Leech Seed, Roserade can take a few light hits.

I was referring to an offensive Rotom switching into an Ambipom Fake Out. I should have been more specific.

Ambipom often switches in after a kill, Fake Outs, then U-turns to a counter. This makes it very difficult to directly hit the smirky monkey. There is a drawback to Fake Out + U-turn though; it eats up half your moveslot. Every Ambipom should have a high base power STAB move ie Double Hit or Return, so that leaves one variable moveslot. For the last moveslot,
1. Taunt is a favorite for anti-set ups but leaves it helpless against Ghosts, Rocks, and Steels.
2. Brick Break hits Rocks and Steels that want to take a Fake Out, but it'll rarely 2HKO. Ghosts and set ups are problems.
3. Payback is probably the least used option to hit Ghosts. Rocks, Steels, and set ups have a field day.
Figure out the last moveslot and Ambipom is much easier to deal with.

I see your point about Spikes to wear to down, since Ambipom often justs U-turns away. There's still Stealth Rock and maybe Life Orb recoil to indirectly hurt it. A surprise Pursuit or priority move will scare the hell out of Ambipom as it U-turns away. Even if you can't hit Ambipom, you'll get a free hit on the switch-in, so predict and kill. Nevertheless, if you don't have something to reliably take Fake Outs, Ambipom will severely weaken your team while scouting for your next move.

 

[Zepar]

If it can take light hits that doesn't mean its not fragile.
The 4 moveslot problem doesn't really matter much seeing as no Ambipom user cares much. U-turn on Ambipom is enough to be broken seeing Fake out and u-turn are awesome together.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Solutions:

1) Run a Pokemon with either Flame Body or Static to screw over the twin-tailed menace. I use Manetric to take U-Turns, and it works just dandy.
2) Use something faster. There's plenty in UU: Swellow, Sceptile, Electrode, and a lot of Scarfers.
3) Like it's been said, indirect damage. Spikes and SR + Life Orb recoil will make anyone think twice about carelessly abusing Ambipom

Anything I missed?

 

[yokie]

For Static and Flame Body Pokemon, only Magcargo and Ampharos are bulky enough to take tolerable damage from U-turn. It is hilarious for a Ambipom get paralyzed from Fake Outing the frail Manectric. It's not uncommon at all for an Ambipom vs Static Electrode lead match up. Would you take the risk of using Fake Out and get nailed by the 30% paralysis chance? For 2 hits (Fake Out + U-turn), Ambipom has a 51% chance of activating Static / Flame Body. That's a nifty way to screw over the cocky Ambipom.

 

[Relictivity]

Pursuit maybe... you can also make it guess wrong by attacking when it thinks you're gonna be using a status move. Trick Scarfing is also rather fun since all it can do is U-Turn (or I guess if it wants to use Return, but then it loses Fake Out XD). Priority moves have already been mentioned. Special Mention goes to Top and Croak for boasting something SuperEffective. If you switch in Croak, and don't get Taunted, you can NP instead of going for the Vaccum Wave. Gyro Ball will do good damage since it is fast. Not much other than you mentioned though.

It seems as if Taunt is becoming the most important move in the metagame, except for maybe sub. We have Crobat, Electrode, and Ambipom which all ultilize Taunt very well...

EDIT: Also Poison Point and T-Spikes (to a lesser extent since it encourages Ambipom to use U-Turn as quickly as possilbe) can be used. Actually, if you have other hazards (rocks or spikes) you may be able to force it to land on these multiple times (U-Turn from poison).

 

[Peachfuzz]

From what I've seen of Ambipom, most are Life Orb leads that accomplish nothing. Fake Outs are very predictable, and the switch made to a rock or steel type is a waste of HP. 4 moveslot syndrome hurts, leaving it walled by very common pokes depending on the moveset. Fake Out -> U-turn is free damage, sure, but the fast U-turn means that the incoming pokemon has to take a hit. It may be "untouchable", but it's damage output is rather small compared to the damage it's taking from Life Orb/entry hazards/attacks. And Silk Scarf only powers up Fake Out and Return/Double Hit, meaning anything that resists normal is fine.

Even if your team has a moderate amount of bulk (that is, not full of frail sweepers), Ambipom will not do much at all.

Pursuit is just as awesome in OU as it is in UU. Many people are saying that stall is difficult to beat. The best way I've found to dismantle stall teams is a Pursuit user to take out special walls, and use powerful special sweepers like Shaymin. Things like Roserade and Chansey, two common stopping blocks to Shaymin, are scared to death of Honchkrow and other pursuit users.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Taunt might be important as a check against stall in some ways, but I have a team full of Pokemon who would love nothing more than for Ambipom to waste a turn Taunting them and become KO fodder for their following attack. Against many common sweepers, it's largely pointless, as the following switch would force them out anyways and leave a minimal impression. I really don't think Taunt it that great.

Also: Pursuit Honchkrow, use it.

 

[Relictivity]

Nah, I was getting more along the lines that it saves Ambipom from things like Status, Subers, Leech Seeders, and Weather-Speed Boosters. That's why it's so important. Sure you can send something in, but it'll just U-Turn. However, I do agree that it WILL get worn down. No Roost assistance unlike Crobat. Ultimately, I think this is why Ambipom is ok - no healing, except by wish. It's not even sturdy enough to use Wish Recovery anyways, considering it has to switch in to take advantage of it.

However, even with Silk Scarf, Fake Out does hurt alot. We're talking about 10%+ even on fully defense EVd pokemon (like my Shaymin). So you kinda gotta have a Steel, Rock, or Dark - it's more powerful then you would imagine.

Pursuit works really, really, really well.

 

[Heysup]

Ohhh!!! I have an idea to counter ambipom! Steelix! Even Registeel! Omg Maybe even Regirock!

If you dont have a Physically defensive Pokemon, use Blaziken to take 9 damage from U-turn.

Seriously, Ambipom is not anywhere near troublesome. If anything is currently "too" good, it is most definately Shaymin.

 

[Relictivity]

I agree Shaymin is really good, I was just saying that you HAVE to resist Ambipom's moves if you really want to survive the battle, else it will keep coming in doing damage to you. My team doesn't have any problems with Ambi (go Spiritomb), I was just saying other might have a problem with it.

Yes, Shaymin is WAY TOO GOOD.

 

[Erazor]

OK, why is it that people have a problem with pokemon that are just good at their job? Some people are complaining about Ambipom being "too good", and we even banned Crobat because it was "too good".
Can't we just accept that certain pokemon do their job, play their role, better than others, while not being broken? Because we seem to have a mindset of " X pokemon does its job well! Let's ban him!"
[/rant]

 

[yokie]

If someone doesn't bother to put a Normal resist/immune on your team, then that person deserves to get smacked around by Ambipom, Swellow, Ursaring, and friends.

I don't think the Ambipom conversation was about it possibly being BL. It's just good at what it does. I believe that people are advised to be generous about suspect voting. If someone strongly feels that Pokemon X is BL, then let that person submit a vote. If others agree, then it might be worthy being tested as a suspect. I'm sure that there are passionate dissenters about Crobat turning suspect and equally as passionate people that want to see Crobat gone for good. Let the people bitch and decide.

Shaymin is ridiculous. There's 2 common sets out there: Life Orb and SubSeed.

You see Life Orb Seed Flare / Air Slash / Earth Power / Rest coming from a mile away, yet it still eats your team alive. SpD drops will turn counters to suspect easily. Once you weaken Shaymin, it'll NaturalRest to repeat the process. Totally evil.

The advantage of Shaymin's SubSeed over others is its bulk obviously. Even Venusaur isn't that bulky. Natural Cure will cancels out the paralysis/burn that would normally stop a SubSeeder dead in its tracks. Roserade gets Natural Cure too, but it's no where near as bulky as Shaymin. SubSeed Shaymin still can Seed Flare too.

I don't see why people are complaining about Air Slash for the SubSeeder. It is a paltry 5 more base power than Hidden Power and doesn't get STAB. It isn't Shaymin-S. Grass/Poison SubSeeders get STAB Sludge Bomb to better deal with enemy Grasses.

 

[Relictivity]

No guys, I'm agreeing with you, it's not BL.

I'm just saying that you cannot expect to take it's hits without a resist. Of course, it's not too big to ask all teams to carry a resist to normal. You guys seem to be taking my words to the extreme, when I'm kinda using them mildly.

Actually, from what I have found, Seed Flare is not the problem with Shaymin, considering that grass resists are prety common in UU. What I found was that the speed eliminated a bunch of would-be counters if it had been 80 like Venusaur's or Meganium's. It's the Speed that allows it to be deadly - the bulk is actually not that much more than either pokemon. Of course, if you're looking for a subseeder, you're going to choose Meganium, and if you look for an attacker, you're gonna chose Venusaur.

Air Slash has a 30% flinch chance. Also, subseed versions don't run rest.

@Erazor We're aren't trying to ban him. Yah. Even if we were, it would have to go under support characteristic.

 

[Mattman324]

About Ambipom... Trick room and Rhydon rip it to pieces. Seriosly, what ambipom likes trickroom?

And yes, shaymin is broken. But my good friend Regice can counter it to hell and back.

 

[Erazor]

Sorry, Relictivity, I wasn't specifically picking on you. Rather, the last page as a whole was pretty irritating.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Hmmm. Okay, Regice may be able to stop the NaturalResting LO set. But SubSeed will Leech Seed you, and then switch to a nice resist for Regi's Ice Beam, like Registeel. LS will absorb the damage, laugh it off, and then Registeel TWaves your switch-in. You're at a major disadvantage now, since your Shaymin counter is damaged (ALWAYS bad) and you just got a Paralysis on your Steel counter. You're in an even worse spot if SR is up, since Regice lost 37% of its health from that little interaction. One more go-round, and Regice can be KO'd by Seed Flare.

Not exactly such a good counter. To be honest, I don't think any one Pokemon can counter both sets adequately, except perhaps Moltres--and we all understand what happens if the Shaymin user gets up SR and has a bulky water around. To be honest, as much as I enjoy abusing Shaymin as an all-purpose counter and attacker, I think sending it to BL may be in order, under any of the three clauses. Yes, being a Subseeder who can destroy other grass-types and fight off enemies with its superior speed, I think it may actually fufill Defensive Clause. I'll go into more detail about my reasoning for each of the three clauses later, I need to dig up my old SD Venusaur to replace it.

 

[Peachfuzz]

Maple Sandwich, that whole paragraph is pure theorymon. What if the Registeel counter was a ground type or Hitmonlee? Regice doesn't have to use Ice Beam every time it's facing Shaymin, it can predict the switch and use another move, or double switch. If Regice forced it out once it's a good check.

Offensive characteristic: A Pokemon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

In my opinion, Shaymin fails to meet the offensive characteristic. It has many common checks that can switch into Seed Flares and take Air Slashes/Earth Powers, its most common offensive moves (Roserade, Venusaur, Regice, Registeel, Altaria, Chansey) as well as faster pokemon that can revenge kill or deal significant damage (Fake Out/U-turn Ambipom, Swellow, Scarf Fire types). I know having reliable counters/checks does not mean it's not broken (think Kyogre in OU forcing everyone to use overspecialized counters), but Shaymin hardly forces anyone to use overspecialized counters or devote a large portion of their team in dealing with it. Base 100 speed and defenses are excellent by UU standards, and Synthesis is a reliable recovery move with hardly any auto-weather, but the common weaknesses the grass type brings, as well as Seed Flare's low PP hinder Shaymin's ability to "sweep significant portions of teams." No doubt that Shaymin is one of the best Pokemon in UU, but it is not broken at all.

 

[Relictivity]

Maple Sandwich, that whole paragraph is pure theorymon. What if the Registeel counter was a ground type or Hitmonlee? Regice doesn't have to use Ice Beam every time it's facing Shaymin, it can predict the switch and use another move, or double switch. If Regice forced it out once it's a good check.

Offensive characteristic: A Pokemon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

In my opinion, Shaymin fails to meet the offensive characteristic. It has many common checks that can switch into Seed Flares and take Air Slashes/Earth Powers, its most common offensive moves (Roserade, Venusaur, Regice, Registeel, Altaria, Chansey) as well as faster pokemon that can revenge kill or deal significant damage (Fake Out/U-turn Ambipom, Swellow, Scarf Fire types). I know having reliable counters/checks does not mean it's not broken (think Kyogre in OU forcing everyone to use overspecialized counters), but Shaymin hardly forces anyone to use overspecialized counters or devote a large portion of their team in dealing with it. Base 100 speed and defenses are excellent by UU standards, and Synthesis is a reliable recovery move with hardly any auto-weather, but the common weaknesses the grass type brings, as well as Seed Flare's low PP hinder Shaymin's ability to "sweep significant portions of teams." No doubt that Shaymin is one of the best Pokemon in UU, but it is not broken at all.

Who said Registeel was the only thing coming in to Regice. In fact, I'm not sure I'd risk it, considreing it may have Focus Blast. You could send in a bulky water, but you'd have to watch out for Charge Beam, but honestly, that does not do much. Haryiama makes a very good switch in to Ice Beam. Moral of the Story: Shyamin is going to get away even if you do a double switch since your likely ot predict wrong, considering the numerous things that like Ice Moves.

Now the thing is, the really troublesome set is the SubSeed, so we should be going for Support or Defensive nominations. Probably support, since it easily sets up and get's rid of your "counters" by smart switching.

The thing si, what viable thing stop it from setting up? Cradily maybe, but it does not get the grass resist. It also hates HP Ice. Regice for Specs/LO set. Same with Chansey. They both hate Leech Seed. Registeel? It hates Leech Seed and cannot explode because of sub. The things at this point you can send in confidently are getting kind of limited.

@ Erazor No worries, I could tell you were a tiny bit agitated, np :).

 

[A.P.]

Shaymin's not even that strong offensively. My Arcanine takes ~70% from Earth Power and OHKOs w/ Fire Blast, while my Roserade (no Sp. Atk. EVs) manhandles any version. But then again, that's just me.

 

[MegaKick]

Lately, I've been noticing a bunch of wierd ass clefables with fire blast, grass knot, double edge, and softboiled @ life orb. They are strong, usually I have to have lickilicky knock off their life orb and stall them out with wish. Anyone else notice these clefables?

Speaking of lickilicky, is he the only good wish support in UU? My team needs wish support desperatly but lickilicky is kinda...meh

 

[Stagnant]

Offensive Clefable can 2HKO a majority of UU walls and rather effective at doing so. Also, Clefable herself is the best Wish passer in UU.

 

[Syberia]

Yeah, wallbreaker Clefable has been around since the old UU, and is quite effective against stall.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Offensive Clefable = old news. I was hoping they were forgotten, but apparently not. Right pains in the behind, I end up having to use my Registeel to stop them

 

[Random Pizzaman]

@ubers are awesome:
I think there are some wishers that deserve more use; Gardevoir, Umbreon, Kangaskhan,and Hypno all make good wish passers