Haha, my apologies ; )
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np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects
- Thread starter Caelum
- Start date
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Your statement is about as vague and uncontributing as it gets MapleSandwich. "Proper Moveset" - care to elaborate? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a Sub CM moveset that can cover nearly as many pokemon as you seem to imply.
Also, if your team is unprepared with checks to stop a Raikou before it gets to +6, it's not a very good team at all. While I agree, to a certain extent, that Raikou's 115 base speed can be a bit of a problem, it don't see it being different enough from checking a Mismagius or a Shaymin to warrant a ban.
Also, if your team is unprepared with checks to stop a Raikou before it gets to +6, it's not a very good team at all. While I agree, to a certain extent, that Raikou's 115 base speed can be a bit of a problem, it don't see it being different enough from checking a Mismagius or a Shaymin to warrant a ban.
Well there is quite an obvious difference between Raikou and those two.
Firstly, Raikou is faster than both.
Secondly, regarding Missy, Raikou has far superior general bulk and its STAB move is stronger.
Regarding Shaymin, this one is kind of obvious, Raikou has higher Special Attack and has Calm Mind (the kicker).
Whenever I think of Raikou, and its power, I see its full potential as a SubCMer, with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Ice as attacking moves. Bolt Beam is the best coverage no question. I think for the sake of the argument, unless someone thinks otherwise, we should assume Raikou has BoltBeam, and not any other hidden powers. This Set has like 4 possible Pokemon that can stop it.
I am personally still not sure if I want to vote Raikou BL or not, but it is definately possible, as it fits the definition to an extent.
Raikou is not a one-time setup. You provide it with Wish support and a T-Spike Absorber and it will be staying there a very, very long time. So no, it is not "easy" to counter Raikou because depending on the set, your pokemon may be screwed. We don't want all teams to be Nidoqueen/Registeel/Gastrodon just to counter Raikou. Really, you are forcing people to rely on about 3 Raikou counters per team, which is ridiculous, considering Wish.
I agree with you Heysup - I was trying to emphasize the speed thing though, which is something I feel people overexaggerate a bit too much.
As far as revenge killing as a check for Mismagius goes, I see people using Choice Scarfers much more than they use the eight or so pokemon between Raikou and Mismagius on the speed tiers. The point I was trying to make is, if you're going to use Scarfers for Mismagius, you can very well use Scarfers for Raikou as well.
Sub CM was not nearly as threatening as Life Orb in my experiences. As far as Hidden Power Ice goes, that's the hidden power that was by far one of the easiest to fight against. Opens it up to Camerupt, Gastrodon, Steelix, Quagsire and a couple more pokemon in terms as counters. Either way, definitely a lot more than four.
Innocent until proven guilty. We can always renominate suspects in the future, so IMO if you aren't sure, better to give them one more chance rather than vote BL right now.
@Relictivity
I'm not going to say you're wrong dude; but the same argument can be put for a dozen other pokemon. With adequate Wish/Toxic Spikes/Screens/whatever support, a lot of sweepers can stay around for a long time, as you say.
As far as revenge killing as a check for Mismagius goes, I see people using Choice Scarfers much more than they use the eight or so pokemon between Raikou and Mismagius on the speed tiers. The point I was trying to make is, if you're going to use Scarfers for Mismagius, you can very well use Scarfers for Raikou as well.
Sub CM was not nearly as threatening as Life Orb in my experiences. As far as Hidden Power Ice goes, that's the hidden power that was by far one of the easiest to fight against. Opens it up to Camerupt, Gastrodon, Steelix, Quagsire and a couple more pokemon in terms as counters. Either way, definitely a lot more than four.
Innocent until proven guilty. We can always renominate suspects in the future, so IMO if you aren't sure, better to give them one more chance rather than vote BL right now.
@Relictivity
I'm not going to say you're wrong dude; but the same argument can be put for a dozen other pokemon. With adequate Wish/Toxic Spikes/Screens/whatever support, a lot of sweepers can stay around for a long time, as you say.
Hm. Well, assuming that set, Steelix completely walks all over it, with the ability to phaze it all day. I generally assuming HP Fire when I consider Raikou, since that allows it to punish Steelix for coming in on it. HP Ice is a whole different ballgame, one with different counters.
However, I've been examining a few things myself, and Raikou, wonder of wonders, has more counters than I thought. Nothing I'd actually WANT to use, because it would completely wreck my strategy. However, assuming HP Ice, it is stopped by Steelix, Camerupt and Quagsire/Gastrodon pretty effectively, since they can take a few unboosted and +1 hits and whale away at it with EQ. However, it's pretty easy to take advantage of those Pokémon and KO them, so it brings up the problem of how useful they are overall and how this would make Raikou a centralizing force.
But you've been having this argument for 6+ pages. I'm just stating that I'm finally beginning to understand the other side of the argument. Not that I think it's UU either way.
However, I've been examining a few things myself, and Raikou, wonder of wonders, has more counters than I thought. Nothing I'd actually WANT to use, because it would completely wreck my strategy. However, assuming HP Ice, it is stopped by Steelix, Camerupt and Quagsire/Gastrodon pretty effectively, since they can take a few unboosted and +1 hits and whale away at it with EQ. However, it's pretty easy to take advantage of those Pokémon and KO them, so it brings up the problem of how useful they are overall and how this would make Raikou a centralizing force.
But you've been having this argument for 6+ pages. I'm just stating that I'm finally beginning to understand the other side of the argument. Not that I think it's UU either way.
After Raikou turned suspect, nearly all Registeel replaced Earthquake with Explosion. Registeel is a lot more threatening with Explosion, so Registeel would greatly benefit from Raikou getting banned to BL. With Raikou in the picture, all Registeel should have EQ, unless the rest of your team can handle Raikou really well. Of course, Registeel can instead scrap TW or SR for EQ. EQ definitely has its uses though like hitting Magneton on the switch, but Explosion is just so awesome. EQ > Explosion is a small case of Raikou's overcentralization.
My prediction is that Raikou would definitely be voted BL if the voting requirements were lower. I think it's too close to call now.
My prediction is that Raikou would definitely be voted BL if the voting requirements were lower. I think it's too close to call now.
Your Camerupt is going to be at 40% health or less if it wants to counter Raikou. Also, whose to say Raikou won't just swith out for say... SubPunch Azumarill.
Also ALL of these pokemon HAVE to run Earthquake to get past Raikou. For Camerupt, it means having to use a mixed set with non-EVd Overheat (still hurts, but it's only a one time use). For Gastrodon, it means a sacrifice on power versus other pokemon. Both pokemon then become setup oppurtunity for others.
For Steelix, if you run any Special Defense EVs, your Earthqakes only do about 50%. Not good if it's behind a sub when you come in, as Raikou will kill you first. And you don't even get to SR.
Quagsire runs into the same problem... because you aren't obviously going to Calm Mind on it, unless you think you can outlive the Encore. Even though Raikou won't be able to damage it much, what can Quagsire do with the time Raikou gives it when it switches out for a Shaymin?
CS Raikou actually works as a decent lead. I would suggest Tbolt/Signal Beam/HP Ground/Shadow Ball. Just make sure it has enough speed to outspeed CS Typhlosionl.
Also ALL of these pokemon HAVE to run Earthquake to get past Raikou. For Camerupt, it means having to use a mixed set with non-EVd Overheat (still hurts, but it's only a one time use). For Gastrodon, it means a sacrifice on power versus other pokemon. Both pokemon then become setup oppurtunity for others.
For Steelix, if you run any Special Defense EVs, your Earthqakes only do about 50%. Not good if it's behind a sub when you come in, as Raikou will kill you first. And you don't even get to SR.
Quagsire runs into the same problem... because you aren't obviously going to Calm Mind on it, unless you think you can outlive the Encore. Even though Raikou won't be able to damage it much, what can Quagsire do with the time Raikou gives it when it switches out for a Shaymin?
CS Raikou actually works as a decent lead. I would suggest Tbolt/Signal Beam/HP Ground/Shadow Ball. Just make sure it has enough speed to outspeed CS Typhlosionl.
Can't or unwilling to adapt to the metagame? Vote the troublesome pokemon away, and make the metagame adapt to you! Brilliant.
That's all I'm going to say on this subject though, as it's blatantly obvious that some people just aren't going to change.
Because a bunch of Pokemon with Base Speed under 70 fit in perfectly with my all-out offense team. But, like you said, let's end the argument and move on.
Read my previous post. You have to basically lose what the "counters" are valued for in order to use them as counters. In other words, they are "mostly dead weight". Notice I said mostly.
@ Yokie Uh... Sub Users and Ghosts have fun with Registeel. Especially SubSeed Shaymin.
Well I dont really think thats fair to say about the people who think Raikou is UU.
These Pokemon such as Gastrodon are seriously outclassed in every possible way by something else, if it wasnt for Raikou. Not to mention, Gastrodon has to run a Physical Set, which sucks more than a special one.
Im not saying you cant fit it into your team, Lemiwinks obviously proved that you CAN fit it in to your team with the correct other pokemon, but some teams just cant, no one should be forced to make a team to compensate for Quagsire. These Pokemon are especially hard to fit into Offensive teams, and of course no one should be forced into Stall.
Im still leaning on BL, but I would love to have it back in UU for my teams sake...
EQ won't help Registeel against Ghosts. Mismagius and Rotom are immune to EQ. Iron Head does around 45% to Mismagius, so Subbing is pointless against Registeel. Iron Head outdamages Spiritomb than EQ. I can't see how Ghosts will have a harder time to deal with Registeel if it has EQ.
Shaymin isn't going to be phased at all by EQ either.
EQ isn't going to break Gatr or Azu's Subs without some extreme Atk investment.
Registeel's EQ is pretty much just for Raikou.
Maybe I misunderstood your point.
Don't worry, I wasn't clear, I run high Defense Tomby, so I'm just used to being able to not be threatened by Regi.
It's funny though, Sub is the ultimate Anti-Registeel move. T-Wave and Explode are blocked, Iron Head has a chance of not breaking, Stealth Rock doesn't get Regi anywhere. Still, I'll be curious to see how Raikou has an effect on Regi... but I think EQ will still be somewhat useful, for things like Kabutops. But I dunno.
It's funny though, Sub is the ultimate Anti-Registeel move. T-Wave and Explode are blocked, Iron Head has a chance of not breaking, Stealth Rock doesn't get Regi anywhere. Still, I'll be curious to see how Raikou has an effect on Regi... but I think EQ will still be somewhat useful, for things like Kabutops. But I dunno.
Earthquake was definately almost used for the sole reason of Raikou as a threat. The only other thing it achieves is hitting Fire-types on the switch.
True, except most fire types except maybe Arcanine would not be switching in, they would probably wait for something to die and come in to start sweeping.
I was just makeshifting at how Regi's Earthquake could be useful for hitting incoming Swift Swimmers (Kabutops, Qwilfish) and the likes... but it's not all that great of a concept so don't worry about it.
I was just makeshifting at how Regi's Earthquake could be useful for hitting incoming Swift Swimmers (Kabutops, Qwilfish) and the likes... but it's not all that great of a concept so don't worry about it.
I don't have time to post much right now, but I'd just like to mention a couple of things.
First of all, I have never even used Quagsire, Gastrodon or Camerupt in the new UU, at all. And if you think such a select group of Pokemon needs to be automatically considered in response to Raikou then I can deduce two things: you didn't understand my argument completely, and you lack the capacity to think creatively enough in your teambuilding. Some examples of unusual stuff that I have used in the past that could deal with Raikou in one way or another: Ampharos, Gallade, Umbreon, Shedinja, Hariyama, Hitmontop, Lanturn, Muk. There are others too, but the point is I've used all these Pokemon successfully because they are not just tacked on to counter Raikou; they all served a useful role for the team. Teambuilding is a dynamic process. You don't just think of one threat at a time when choosing your Pokemon and movesets.
Second of all, the argument that Registeel is forced to run EQ so Raikou is centralizing doesn't really hold water. Should Gyarados be Uber because bulky Waters are running HP Electric? It isn't exactly the best option for anything else, and that includes other Waters.
First of all, I have never even used Quagsire, Gastrodon or Camerupt in the new UU, at all. And if you think such a select group of Pokemon needs to be automatically considered in response to Raikou then I can deduce two things: you didn't understand my argument completely, and you lack the capacity to think creatively enough in your teambuilding. Some examples of unusual stuff that I have used in the past that could deal with Raikou in one way or another: Ampharos, Gallade, Umbreon, Shedinja, Hariyama, Hitmontop, Lanturn, Muk. There are others too, but the point is I've used all these Pokemon successfully because they are not just tacked on to counter Raikou; they all served a useful role for the team. Teambuilding is a dynamic process. You don't just think of one threat at a time when choosing your Pokemon and movesets.
Second of all, the argument that Registeel is forced to run EQ so Raikou is centralizing doesn't really hold water. Should Gyarados be Uber because bulky Waters are running HP Electric? It isn't exactly the best option for anything else, and that includes other Waters.
There's centralizing and then there's overcentralizing. Raikou is a top threat, so obviously, people take special precautions to deal with it. However, when those precautions become too narrowly focused on that one threat, then it might be cause for banning. Where you draw the line between centralizing and overcentralizing is up to you. I think that Registeel is forced to run EQ to deal with Raikou and that EQ doesn't have much else use. Based on Registeel alone, I never said that Raikou should be banned. It takes a lot for something to get banned. When players are forced to make several drastic changes to deal with a specific threat then it's a plausible cause for a ban. Again, it's all subjective. You'll have your opinions and so does the guy next to you.
I'd just like to remind everyone that no where in any of the three characteristics of a BL is the word "Overcentralization" or even "centralization" mentioned... this is because it has no bearing. So please stop mentioning it for why something is BL, because even if it was true, using that as basis for your vote when the time comes is a slap in the face to the characteristics (and is likely to make your vote null).
Can we at least keep our arguments to how something does or does not fit the characteristics?
Can we at least keep our arguments to how something does or does not fit the characteristics?
Right, but the arguement for Raikou, in this case, is that it does fit the definition, but it is easy to counter with these "overspecialized" counters. People are saying how they shouldnt be forced to specialize for Raikou, because in common (unspecialized) battle conditions, Raikou can sweep with little effort.
Im not saying this is my view, btw.
Well I'm kind of late, but I guess I might as well voice my opinion on these things.
Also, I dont know if this is the right place, but I want to propose Shaymin as a suspect. It's great stats, great movepool (Seed Flare + Earth Power + Hidden Power is better coverage than Raikou) and good typing in UU have gotten me through quite a few matches single-handedly. I was wondering if anyone else had an opinion on this.
This is really a no-brainer. Offensively, with its huge movepool, great stats and typing, Gallade is just a powerhouse. If Crobat and Staraptor go to BL, there is no way this thing will stick around.
With the fact that Ice types are actually semi-usable in UU, this thing is much more of a threat in UU than it is in OU. Is it TOO overpowered? I can't say, but with the strength of both Ice and Grass types in UU I would at least consider it "suspect". The Sub/Focus Punch/Leech Seed/Blizzard set is the one I would use.
2hkos everything with no prediction. 'nuff said
This has been one of the more controversial picks. Raikou is an offensive and defensive powerhouse, but there are plenty of reasonable ways of dealing with it in UU. Basically, anything that isn't boltbeam weak with any reasonable amount of SpDef can wall this. Chansey walls the hell out of this. Lanturn owns it. Other CMers can stat up with it and possibly win, most notably Clefable. As was mentioned before, you don't have to overcentralize to beat Raikou. I don't think that having a pokemon that isn't ohkod by Thunderbolt is forcing too much on the player. Raikou is manageable in UU, it just has the upper hand against offensive teams, which people really frown upon.
Frosslass is a pretty great revenge killer with its great STABs and movepool, but for some reason most people seemed to have wasted this potential for the suicide version. 2 layers of Spikes is pretty good in UU, but I don't think that Frosslass is either too offensively strong or too supportive for this environment. Nothing is really broken because of Flass.
Basically, the status of every other suspect hangs on the fate of Crobat. Offensively, Crobat can not do that much. However, Taunt + fast weather, coupled with the fact that it can actually come into battle more than once to distinguish it from Electrode might be pushing the "support" characteristic to the edge. Crobat can certainly counter a lot and help a UU team, but I'm not sure if it's "too good".
Also, I dont know if this is the right place, but I want to propose Shaymin as a suspect. It's great stats, great movepool (Seed Flare + Earth Power + Hidden Power is better coverage than Raikou) and good typing in UU have gotten me through quite a few matches single-handedly. I was wondering if anyone else had an opinion on this.
I assumed you were talking about prop 8 and not prop 9, the Victims' Rights and Protection Act of 2008, which expanded the legal rights of a victim and affected parole hearings....but seriously, why did you even post this? We aren't discussing minority rights, we are discussing tier placement of pokemon. The opinion of the majority actually matters in this case.
He was making an analogy. What he's saying is that the majority is against Crobat, but those who support it are making themselves much more visible and thus skewing appearances. Whether this is true and how analogous to Prop 8 it actually was are beyond my reckoning. But I don't think he was trying to make any sort of social commentary.
So, has anyone faced any good Hail teams? I went up against a somewhat gimmicky Hail team from Articanus that used a sashed lv2 Clefable. Of course, since I wasn't exactly expecting said gimmick, I reacted badly ended up losing that match, and I never got a rematch. Still, it was literally the only Hail team I've faced since Abomasnow's banning. I would think that if hail were as overpowered as it's made out to be, some people would still be using Hail.
7ay had a pretty effective Hail team in the early stages of the suspect testing metagame. The reason Hail is no longer effective as it once was is because Abomasnow could actually fight in the UU metagame effectively, using SubSeed like jrrrrrrr mentioned. Having to carry (relatively) dead weight like Snover (and being forced to switch it in against powerful attackers like Kabutops and Gorebyss to stop Rain Dance teams) makes Hail far less viable...although Lv1 Clefable with Endeavor + Hail Damage is still an absurd pain in the behind.
Here are my views on the Suspects:
Abomasnow - BL
Through Leech Seed and Hail, Abomasnow will chip at an HP of a Pokemon. Take the following scenario:
a) Abomasnow switches in. Perhaps on a Claydol's Earth Power, Lanturn's Surf, etc.
b) Abomasnow uses Substitute, while the opponent switches out to something that has better capabilities in taking on Abomasnow.
c) Abomasnow uses Leech Seed on said Pokemon. Pokemon breaks the Substitute.
d) Abomasnow switches.
At the end of this sequence, the opposing Pokemon will have 75% (only Steelix), 68.75%, 62.5%, 56.25%, or 50% left. This is assuming it started at full health and factoring in Stealth Rock, which I think is fair to consider a common battle condition. Other Leech Seeders are not as potent because a) Abomasnow has a 120 BP STAB SE Blizzard with which to hit Grass-types that are immune to Leech Seed and b) Abomasnow cancels out Leftovers recovery of any Pokemon excluding Ice-types and Clefable.
Now, there are many variables that can nullify some of Abomasnow's power. 50% recovery moves, fast Encores and Taunt, U-Turn, etc. First of all, to force Abomasnow out, the Pokemon in question must be able to outspeed Abomasnow, use a slower U-Turn, Encore Leech Seed, or use Whirlwind, Roar, or Perish Song. If it is slower and does not have U-Turn, Whirlwind, Roar, or Encore at its possession, it will be helpless to an infinte cycle of Substitute/Leech Seed.
So basically, in order to force out Abomasnow, the Pokemon:
a) Has to outrun Abomasnow.
b) Has to threaten to KO (also ie; Poison) him, Taunt, or Encore.
c) Does not take considerable damage from his attacks or Stealth Rock.
d) Has reliable recovery.
or
e) Can use a slow U-Turn and switch to something else.
Satisfies conditions a - d:
Kangaskhan
Miltank
Satisfies conditions b - d:
Clefable
Hypno
Umbreon
Satisfies condition e:
Mespirit
Uxie
If a Pokemon does not satisfy condition a or e (ie; Chansey) it will just be stalled out in a cycle of SubSeeding.
Condition b is self-explanatory and applies to forcing most any Pokemon out (the first part, anyway.) Condition c is the same way as well.
If a Pokemon does not satisfy Condition d, it cannot keep switching back into Abomasnow unless it has excellent Wish support.
Condition e, a slower U-Turn, will result in the breaking of Abomasnow's Substitute and for Leech Seed to be negated. However, both Uxie and Mespirit do not have reliable recovery, so they do have the potential to be worn down.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
I believe Abomasnow is BL because it falls under the support category. Abomasnow's stalling abilities can easily create holes in the most defensive of walls. Arcanine's going to have a tougher time switching on Glaceon at 50% from tackling Abomasnow. Abomasnow simply has the resources to just cause opposing Pokemon to disintegrate, 12.5% at a time.
A word on Rest: Yes, Rest does make Abomasnow's job slightly harder if it cannot achieve a 3HKO. But by forcing the opponent to Rest to beat it, Abomasnow still sets up a situation in which it makes it substantially easire for other Pokemon to sweep, thanks to the "random nature" of Sleep Talk, and the fact that the opponent has to give up a moveslot for Sleep Talk in which a significant move might have been used otherwise.
Crobat - UU
Unless I'm mistaken, the argument for which it was nominated was that Crobat can use Taunt to shut down other leads (ie; Froslass/Spikes) and then scout with U-Turn or set up weather and then U - Turn, leaving it with a significant advantage.
First of all, shutting down the non-attacking shenanigans of other leads does not fall under any characteristics. Definitely not offensive. Steelix can still Gyro Ball, Uxie can still Psychic, etc. so Crobat cannot use wall and outstall the majority of the metagame.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
Well, it technically can. If Crobat Taunts Registeel, it can't set up Stealth Rock and thusly, Moltres can sweep substantially more easily. And Registeel has to Iron Head, meaning Blaziken gets in for free.
However, that's only one Pokemon. If Uxie were leading, Crobat U-Turning to Drapion could end up with Uxie U-Turning to Steelix. And the Steelix Crobat tries to Taunt could end up using Gyro Ball instead. So really, it's not very consistent. I think this point is already a beaten dead horse, so I will address another issue:
Weather
Crobat's distinguishing characteristics are a combination of speed (and Taunt), defensive ability, and U-Turn. Which are great assets, but not broken.
Think of it this way: Can your lead stop Electrode from using Rain Dance with a faster Taunt, kill Altaria in one hit, and overcome the nature of a U-Turn from a fleeing Uxie...all at the same time? What happens if you face three consecutive players each using a Rain Dance team with these three respective leads? What lead that cannot deal with Crobat can deal with all three of these leads at the same time? Basically, if you can't stop Rain Dance from Crobat, you can't because of only one of its traits, not all three at once.
Staraptor - BL
If Luxray, Rotom, and Ampharos become bog standard overnight, maybe.
Gallade - UU
Gallade has become a bit iffy for me. It was pretty susceptible to revenge kills, mainly from Crobat. Yes, there's not much that can switch in it directly and then kill it from there, but you can pull stuff like switching in Mismagius on the SD and then going to Crobat on the Shadow Sneak. Unlike Staraptor, Gallade isn't as efficient with only two attacks, is slower, and doesn't have Roost, so Substitute leaves some things uncovered. Gallade is a bit more prediction based as I see it.
Raikou - UU
I think the main issue with this is with offensive teams. Speed and Substitute means that the Pokemon coming in will be forced to take a hit or two in breaking Raikou's Substitute. But still, Raikou can be feasibly stopped by a number of Pokemon, including most notably Chansey.
Froslass - UU
I'd love to kick this thing out of UU. But I've found that Spikes isn't that hard to get up even if you're not Froslass. Its other supporting options are pretty predictable now.
Shaymin - UU
Not a suspect yet, but looks like it's on the road to becoming the next one. I think if Crobat returns to UU, it will do a stellar job in keeping it in check.
Abomasnow - BL
Through Leech Seed and Hail, Abomasnow will chip at an HP of a Pokemon. Take the following scenario:
a) Abomasnow switches in. Perhaps on a Claydol's Earth Power, Lanturn's Surf, etc.
b) Abomasnow uses Substitute, while the opponent switches out to something that has better capabilities in taking on Abomasnow.
c) Abomasnow uses Leech Seed on said Pokemon. Pokemon breaks the Substitute.
d) Abomasnow switches.
At the end of this sequence, the opposing Pokemon will have 75% (only Steelix), 68.75%, 62.5%, 56.25%, or 50% left. This is assuming it started at full health and factoring in Stealth Rock, which I think is fair to consider a common battle condition. Other Leech Seeders are not as potent because a) Abomasnow has a 120 BP STAB SE Blizzard with which to hit Grass-types that are immune to Leech Seed and b) Abomasnow cancels out Leftovers recovery of any Pokemon excluding Ice-types and Clefable.
Now, there are many variables that can nullify some of Abomasnow's power. 50% recovery moves, fast Encores and Taunt, U-Turn, etc. First of all, to force Abomasnow out, the Pokemon in question must be able to outspeed Abomasnow, use a slower U-Turn, Encore Leech Seed, or use Whirlwind, Roar, or Perish Song. If it is slower and does not have U-Turn, Whirlwind, Roar, or Encore at its possession, it will be helpless to an infinte cycle of Substitute/Leech Seed.
So basically, in order to force out Abomasnow, the Pokemon:
a) Has to outrun Abomasnow.
b) Has to threaten to KO (also ie; Poison) him, Taunt, or Encore.
c) Does not take considerable damage from his attacks or Stealth Rock.
d) Has reliable recovery.
or
e) Can use a slow U-Turn and switch to something else.
Satisfies conditions a - d:
Kangaskhan
Miltank
Satisfies conditions b - d:
Clefable
Hypno
Umbreon
Satisfies condition e:
Mespirit
Uxie
If a Pokemon does not satisfy condition a or e (ie; Chansey) it will just be stalled out in a cycle of SubSeeding.
Condition b is self-explanatory and applies to forcing most any Pokemon out (the first part, anyway.) Condition c is the same way as well.
If a Pokemon does not satisfy Condition d, it cannot keep switching back into Abomasnow unless it has excellent Wish support.
Condition e, a slower U-Turn, will result in the breaking of Abomasnow's Substitute and for Leech Seed to be negated. However, both Uxie and Mespirit do not have reliable recovery, so they do have the potential to be worn down.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
I believe Abomasnow is BL because it falls under the support category. Abomasnow's stalling abilities can easily create holes in the most defensive of walls. Arcanine's going to have a tougher time switching on Glaceon at 50% from tackling Abomasnow. Abomasnow simply has the resources to just cause opposing Pokemon to disintegrate, 12.5% at a time.
A word on Rest: Yes, Rest does make Abomasnow's job slightly harder if it cannot achieve a 3HKO. But by forcing the opponent to Rest to beat it, Abomasnow still sets up a situation in which it makes it substantially easire for other Pokemon to sweep, thanks to the "random nature" of Sleep Talk, and the fact that the opponent has to give up a moveslot for Sleep Talk in which a significant move might have been used otherwise.
Crobat - UU
Unless I'm mistaken, the argument for which it was nominated was that Crobat can use Taunt to shut down other leads (ie; Froslass/Spikes) and then scout with U-Turn or set up weather and then U - Turn, leaving it with a significant advantage.
First of all, shutting down the non-attacking shenanigans of other leads does not fall under any characteristics. Definitely not offensive. Steelix can still Gyro Ball, Uxie can still Psychic, etc. so Crobat cannot use wall and outstall the majority of the metagame.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
Well, it technically can. If Crobat Taunts Registeel, it can't set up Stealth Rock and thusly, Moltres can sweep substantially more easily. And Registeel has to Iron Head, meaning Blaziken gets in for free.
However, that's only one Pokemon. If Uxie were leading, Crobat U-Turning to Drapion could end up with Uxie U-Turning to Steelix. And the Steelix Crobat tries to Taunt could end up using Gyro Ball instead. So really, it's not very consistent. I think this point is already a beaten dead horse, so I will address another issue:
Weather
Crobat's distinguishing characteristics are a combination of speed (and Taunt), defensive ability, and U-Turn. Which are great assets, but not broken.
Think of it this way: Can your lead stop Electrode from using Rain Dance with a faster Taunt, kill Altaria in one hit, and overcome the nature of a U-Turn from a fleeing Uxie...all at the same time? What happens if you face three consecutive players each using a Rain Dance team with these three respective leads? What lead that cannot deal with Crobat can deal with all three of these leads at the same time? Basically, if you can't stop Rain Dance from Crobat, you can't because of only one of its traits, not all three at once.
Staraptor - BL
If Luxray, Rotom, and Ampharos become bog standard overnight, maybe.
Gallade - UU
Gallade has become a bit iffy for me. It was pretty susceptible to revenge kills, mainly from Crobat. Yes, there's not much that can switch in it directly and then kill it from there, but you can pull stuff like switching in Mismagius on the SD and then going to Crobat on the Shadow Sneak. Unlike Staraptor, Gallade isn't as efficient with only two attacks, is slower, and doesn't have Roost, so Substitute leaves some things uncovered. Gallade is a bit more prediction based as I see it.
Raikou - UU
I think the main issue with this is with offensive teams. Speed and Substitute means that the Pokemon coming in will be forced to take a hit or two in breaking Raikou's Substitute. But still, Raikou can be feasibly stopped by a number of Pokemon, including most notably Chansey.
Froslass - UU
I'd love to kick this thing out of UU. But I've found that Spikes isn't that hard to get up even if you're not Froslass. Its other supporting options are pretty predictable now.
Shaymin - UU
Not a suspect yet, but looks like it's on the road to becoming the next one. I think if Crobat returns to UU, it will do a stellar job in keeping it in check.
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