Metagame np: Stage 2 - Teardrop - Victreebel Banned

[Magnemite]

Okay, taking a little break from the sun discussion to talk about a cool core I've used a few times, including in my PUPL game against Montsegur:

Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Grass]

This core takes inspiration from double dragon cores in other tiers. Basically, Nasty Plot Raichu breaks through things like SpD Roselia, Piloswine, SpD Clefairy, and Grumpig, which clears the way for Zebstrika to clean up with its main checks weakened. There's still a few things which annoy it though. For example, Vibrava doesn't switch into Raichu because they always carry HP Ice, so it's hard to get it to come in. Depending on which Electric checks the opponent has it can also work in reverse; if they're things like Clefairy and Grumpig you can spam Volt Switch with Zebstrika to wear them down and pressure them so that they're in +2 Raichu range. Overall this is a neat core that features a great and underrated set in NP Raichu and is pretty effective in this meta.

 

[WhiteDMist]

After some discussion, we will be conducting a suspect test for Sun! This will be a longer suspect test, at the minimum of 2 weeks (maybe more). The test will end tentatively on July 9th, at around 12 PM GMT -5.


Requirements will be a GXE score of at least 80 and Glicko-1 of 1800 ± 80 or better, on fresh alt. An alt id thread will be created for this purpose, so if you want to have a chance to vote, this is the first step. The slight bump in requirements will make sure that only those who have proven to be competent in both battling and contributing will be able to vote. Contributing will include: demonstrating general knowledge of the current metagame, as well as Sun's overall effect on the current metagame. Anyone who meets these requirements will be placed on the Rotating Council for this suspect.

The main difference from before is that we will participate in the discussions, but Dell and I will NOT be voting. The main reason for this is that we will be selecting people who qualify for Rotating Council, so we do not want any possible personal bias to affect who will be selected. We will remain neutral in the discussions and the selection process, so we will also cross-examine each side, so be prepared to defend your views and keep an open mind. The moderation team has agreed that this method will help decrease the effects of bandwagonning, which has been a bit of a problem in the past.

The suspect test will look at Sun as a whole, and the vote will target the possible aspects that may be the most problematic. Thus, there will be a slate of different options for the path we will take.
Ban Sunny Day
Ban Heat Rock
Ban Victreebel
Ban Chlorophyll
Do Not Ban

• Sunny Day is literally the body of Sun, as without it, the playstyle cannot exist. This is likely the most drastic action we can take, eliminating Sun as a whole.
• Heat Rock extends the duration of Sunny Day from 5 to 8 turns, which really translates to 7 turns if you are lucky. Still, those extra 3 turns can mean the difference between a Sun team destroying the opponent or being outspeed and losing. A more moderate option, although item bans are rare.
• Victreebel is the face of Sun teams, and losing it will lower Sun's effectiveness. It is also the simplest of the bans, but does remove the ability to use non-Sun related sets.
• Chlorophyll provides a massive +2 boost to Speed under the Sun, which is plenty for sweeping. This would apply to several Pokemon though, and not all may be broken.
• There is an option to not ban anything at all.

These are the basic options, although you are also free to nominate something for the slate as well. Since this is going on alongside PUPL, feel free to use that experience to your advantage in your points as well. We will be using the Instant Run-Off Voting system for this suspect test, to accommodate the different options.

 

[Magnemite]

Being the one to bring this up in the first place I've already stated much of my opinion on this, but I'd like to say that I'd strongly prefer banning Heat Rock to either of the other options that result in a ban, as it sufficiently limits sun without banning it entirely, but also doesn't ban anything that isn't broken (particularly Sunny Day 3 attacks Life Orb Victreebel, which isn't broken but is definitely viable, and can't exist with either of the other two ban options).

 

[WhiteDMist]

Chlorophyll has been added to the slate

 

[WhiteDMist]

Being the one to bring this up in the first place I've already stated much of my opinion on this, but I'd like to say that I'd strongly prefer banning Heat Rock to either of the other options that result in a ban, as it sufficiently limits sun without banning it entirely, but also doesn't ban anything that isn't broken (particularly Sunny Day 3 attacks Life Orb Victreebel, which isn't broken but is definitely viable, and can't exist with either of the other two ban options).

Yes, that is a very valid concern in favor of Heat Rock. How does reducing the number of Sun turns sufficiently address the issue of Sun's dominating factor? Explain your reasoning.

 

[Twix]

Reducing the number of Sun turns can makes sun a lot less threatening, as the team has to rely on Volbeat to continuously set up the weather and not get Knocked out. This also allows Sun to be stalled out more easily with Protect; and limits the amount of turns Chlorophyll can come into play. While three turns may not seem that large, it can be the difference between winning and losing a game. I agree with Magnemite about banning the item Heat Rock.

 

[Grim]

What I think is the main reason why sun is broken is Victreebel. The other relevant sun sweepers, Leafeon and Sawsbuck, are also threatening but Victreebel is an extreme case. With its amazing coverage, high powered moves, and Sleep Powder to cripple and / or break through Pokemon such as Ninetales that would otherwise be checks, Victreebel is amazingly hard to wall and destroys a huge part of the metagame with only a few Pokemon (that I might add are often niche options), such as specially defensive Sleep Talk Zweilous, are able to reliably defeat it. It's just an amazing wallbreaker, and an amazing wallbreaker that outspeeds almost every Pokemon in PU with the few exceptions being insanely fast Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Raichu is obviously not a good thing.

With Victreebel being the main problem the most logical course of action might seem to simply ban it, but Victreebel actually does have some sets that are used outside of full sun, such as Swords Dance and Sunny Day + 3 attacks, and even though they are extremely mediocre I don't think it would be good to make them unusable. Instead, I think banning Heat Rock is the best choice, as it cripples full sun and by extent Victreebel to the point where they are much less viable and most definitely not broken. You could make a case for sun not being broken because certain Pokemon can prevent it from being easily set up and it can be played around, but at the end of the day it is still in the sun users favor because Volbeat sets up sun against almost if not all Pokemon and prediction goes both ways.

 

[g]

Ok going to analyze all the options in the order i retain them to be the most useful to deal with the problem that Sunny Day teams are in the metagame. I will make a later post in which i go in depth in why Sunny Day teams are broken in my opinion but most of the reasons have already been echoed by other posters.

Ban Victreebel.
In my humble opinion the best option/solution by far. Not only Victreebel is clearly the most scary trait about Sunny Day Teams but we also have a precedent of banning the weather sweeper when a particular teamstyle becomes too strong in the banning of Excadrill in Black and White. Victreebel's terrifying 3-moves-coverage with great Special Attack and access to Sleep Powder let it take on any kind of defensive answer without enormous amount of Special bulk (those risk Sleep Powder and Growth while healing) and most Sucker Punch users (the most effective priority against this outside of the niche Ice Shard which has one user) due to the crippling nature of sleep. It is no doubt that Sunny Day teams without Victreebel are way less effective and arguably not broken (Rain is more scary overall taking out Victreebel's awesome traits, seriously the next best sweeper becomes TANGELA) and banning Sunny Day or Heat Rock to preserve Victreebel's mediocre or utterly bad not sun sets is clearly not worth the nerf Sawsbuck and Leafeon would receive.

Ban Heat Rock
This solution is actually pretty effective. It doesn't nerf what doesnt need to be nerfed while making Sun way less effective. Victreebel and company can't continue their rampage for much time if Sun only lasts 5 turns especially considering they have to come in after the sun is set up and it isnt the easiest thing in the world to come in soon against stronger attackers. Also most Sunny Day setters are suicidal or prone to entry hazards so there aren't many opportunities to set and keep sun up all game. This solution saves standalone Sunny Day Victreebel which i guess is sort of cool?

Ban Chlorophyll
This has a precedent in Aldaron's proposal and in the approach WCoP has taken in handling the problem that Sun Sweepers are in BW and i honestly think it is a pretty solid solution but again, in my opinion Sawsbuck and Tangela aren't broken with the speed boost in sun and PU has plenty of hard checks to them and nerfing them is pointless imo unless we ban Swift Swim too. Nothing really has Chlorophyll has its only ability so we arent restricting anything.

Ban Sunny Day
Nonsense since banning Chloropyll in this case solves the problem.

Do Nothing
Will explain in another post soon

 

[Raiza]

Looks like I got outpaced again and most important points have been already expressed so I'll just give my opinion on what I would like to see banned among these options. To be honest I already expressed my opinion, not on this topic, about banning Victreebel, but I'll clarify it there too. Victreebel is of course the main reason behind this Sun, Heat Rock, or whatever name you want to call it suspect, because of its high speed under Sun along with extremely good coverage and excessive high sheer power for the tier. THOUGH, I don't think this is the best option to go, as Victreebel can run other set outside of the classic sun sweeper, such as the one Anty posted with Sunny Day + 3 Atk which isn't that bad but isn't too strong either, and the mixed attacker one, which also isn't too meh, also if you ban Victreebel I don't think people will ever start to play Sun teams again constantly(as if they do now lol), bc relying on two physical sweepers would be detrimental and Tangela clearly can't replace Victreebel as a special attacking sweeper, so the nerf Sawsbuck and Leafeon would receive banning Heat Rock isn't too much different there, they would just get a non direct nerf. That said, I think the most effective option is banning Heat Rock, as it will nerf Sun abusers already mentioned, but without completely shut down the playstyle itself. Banning Heat Rock just makes it harder to capitalize because of less Sun turns and actually gives a bigger chance to play around Sun teams when you got an even matchup, while the Sun user will actually have to use his mind to win and not play buttons randomly.
Will keep this short about Chlorophyll so, as a last note, I think banning Chlorophyll is decent, but it would be still too excessive and worse even than banning Victreebel itself, as it will shut down Sun, and every abuser that could be semi-useful even without Heat Rock, such as Sawsbuck and Tangela, but still not as broken with lesser sun turns, definitely.
Sorry if I sound redundant but I read other posts quickly so I don't know if I posted something that someone already talked about.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Reducing the number of Sun turns can makes sun a lot less threatening, as the team has to rely on Volbeat to continuously set up the weather and not get Knocked out. This also allows Sun to be stalled out more easily with Protect; and limits the amount of turns Chlorophyll can come into play. While three turns may not seem that large, it can be the difference between winning and losing a game. I agree with Magnemite about banning the item Heat Rock.

Considering most Sun setters do not actually take advantage of the Sun itself (Volbeat, Golem, Onix, Carbink, etc.), this is a notable reason. It takes 1 turn to set up Sunny Day and another turn to switch in a Sun sweeper, and that disregards any turns spent on other attacks (Encore, Stealth Rock, etc.) How will this solve the problem of Sun sweepers being so overpowering under Sun?

What I think is the main reason why sun is broken is Victreebel. The other relevant sun sweepers, Leafeon and Sawsbuck, are also threatening but Victreebel is an extreme case. With its amazing coverage, high powered moves, and Sleep Powder to cripple and / or break through Pokemon such as Ninetales that would otherwise be checks, Victreebel is amazingly hard to wall and destroys a huge part of the metagame with only a few Pokemon (that I might add are often niche options), such as specially defensive Sleep Talk Zweilous, are able to reliably defeat it. It's just an amazing wallbreaker, and an amazing wallbreaker that outspeeds almost every Pokemon in PU with the few exceptions being insanely fast Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Raichu is obviously not a good thing.

With Victreebel being the main problem the most logical course of action might seem to simply ban it, but Victreebel actually does have some sets that are used outside of full sun, such as Swords Dance and Sunny Day + 3 attacks, and even though they are extremely mediocre I don't think it would be good to make them unusable. Instead, I think banning Heat Rock is the best choice, as it cripples full sun and by extent Victreebel to the point where they are much less viable and most definitely not broken. You could make a case for sun not being broken because certain Pokemon can prevent it from being easily set up and it can be played around, but at the end of the day it is still in the sun users favor because Volbeat sets up sun against almost if not all Pokemon and prediction goes both ways.

Well, why should the ability to use a couple of, in your words "mediocre" sets make banning Victreebel an inferior option? Smogon has never allowed the presence of lesser sets to prevent them from banning a Pokemon, as any "broken" Pokemon can be considered "not broken" or "mediocre" with lesser sets. Why should this be a different case? Please elaborate, as I am quite interested in this perspective.

Ok going to analyze all the options in the order i retain them to be the most useful to deal with the problem that Sunny Day teams are in the metagame. I will make a later post in which i go in depth in why Sunny Day teams are broken in my opinion but most of the reasons have already been echoed by other posters. I can't wait!

Ban Victreebel.
In my humble opinion the best option/solution by far. Not only Victreebel is clearly the most scary trait about Sunny Day Teams but we also have a precedent of banning the weather sweeper when a particular teamstyle becomes too strong in the banning of Excadrill in Black and White. Victreebel's terrifying 3-moves-coverage with great Special Attack and access to Sleep Powder let it take on any kind of defensive answer without enormous amount of Special bulk (those risk Sleep Powder and Growth while healing) and most Sucker Punch users (the most effective priority against this outside of the niche Ice Shard which has one user) due to the crippling nature of sleep. It is no doubt that Sunny Day teams without Victreebel are way less effective and arguably not broken (Rain is more scary overall taking out Victreebel's awesome traits, seriously the next best sweeper becomes TANGELA) and banning Sunny Day or Heat Rock to preserve Victreebel's mediocre or utterly bad not sun sets is clearly not worth the nerf Sawsbuck and Leafeon would receive. Why target Victreebel alone, just because it is the face of Sun teams? Is Victreebel alone the one that carries Sun teams when you have powerful Pokemon, such as Leafeon and Sawsbuck, that also make handling Sun a difficult task? Is there more to Victreebel that makes it "broken" on Sun teams?

Ban Heat Rock
This solution is actually pretty effective. It doesn't nerf what doesnt need to be nerfed while making Sun way less effective. Victreebel and company can't continue their rampage for much time if Sun only lasts 5 turns especially considering they have to come in after the sun is set up and it isnt the easiest thing in the world to come in soon against stronger attackers. Also most Sunny Day setters are suicidal or prone to entry hazards so there aren't many opportunities to set and keep sun up all game. This solution saves standalone Sunny Day Victreebel which i guess is sort of cool? What about the possibility that multiple Sun setters can still exist on a team? Will this solution be sufficient if a Sun team starts carrying 3 Sun setters to make up for the lack of Heat Rock?

Ban Chlorophyll
This has a precedent in Aldaron's proposal and in the approach WCoP has taken in handling the problem that Sun Sweepers are in BW and i honestly think it is a pretty solid solution but again, in my opinion Sawsbuck and Tangela aren't broken with the speed boost in sun and PU has plenty of hard checks to them and nerfing them is pointless imo unless we ban Swift Swim too. Nothing really has Chlorophyll has its only ability so we arent restricting anything. Unlike Rain and Swift Swim, Sun does not provide any Chlorophyll users with a boost to their STAB moves. Victreebel is the only common and viable Sun sweeper with access to Weather Ball, which IS boosted in power under Sun. What makes this option better (or worse) than targeting other aspects of Sun? After all, without Chlorophyll, wouldn't Sun teams have a lot of trouble existing at all?

Ban Sunny Day
Nonsense since banning Chloropyll in this case solves the problem. Why is this nonsense? This removes the problem of overpowering Sun teams completely. No reason to diss an option, even if you completely disagree with it.

Do Nothing
Will explain in another post soon. Can't wait for this either :)

I answered within the quote in green bold to make it easier to understand.

Don't take these responses personally, I am just making sure everyone looks at the other side of the argument and it actually will help you plug up any holes in your debate. That said, I am only targeting the points you all state, so everyone else can feel free to point out other reasons for any of the choices, be it that you agree or disagree with them. Remember, posting will help you as you will be looked at for Rotating Council!

 

[g]

WhiteDMist answering to the last two points first. My main problem with banning Sunny Day when there is the option to ban Chlorophyll is that Chlorophyll sweepers themselves are the reason for which Sun is broken. Very few Pokemon use Sunny Day for a reason that is not boosting a Chlorophyll sweepers and even if their use can be considered EXTREMELY niche and actually bad (can only think of Sunny Day + Solar Beam Rapidash to lure Golem) they aren't broken in any way whatsoever. Basically what I am saying is that Sunny Day (or Sunny Day + Heat Rock) in itself is not really broken, the sweepers it boosts are and while I don't agree that much with banning Chlorophyll as it restricts Pokemon that arent broken with it such as Bellossom and to a lesser extent Leafeon and Sawsbuck (strong but I think of them as manageable in this tier for a few reasons), banning Sunny Day is just worse since if restricts even more Pokemon and strategies that are not broken.

Regarding the ban of Heat Rock I put it as a secondary option since I don't believe it is the best course of action to take. For example as you said running more weather setters will be the new effective thing since indeed a lot of offensive teams can lose important pieces even in 2-3-4 turns if Pokemon such as Victreebel are around.

Also definitely supporting your response to Grimoiregod, I don't really believe that "saving" mediocre set is really worth it in this case

 

[Magnemite]

Yeah now that I think about it, I'd honestly rather ban Victreebel at this point, since banning it means that sun is still more of a viable playstyle, just a balanced one (well about as balanced as weather can be). While Victreebel by itself is viable, I honestly believe now that on sun Victreebel is the main culprit making it broken, with its access to Sleep Powder, impossible to wall coverage, and incredible power. Other options such as Tangela really don't come close to it in terms of being good (though they'd still be viable if we banned Victreebel, just like sun in general).

 

[Rennyjesus]

Heat Rock technically doubles the sun turns, because if you use a Prankster Setter like Volbeat, you just have to use two turns to set up the sun and U Turn out, which in normal sun are just three sun turns left, with Heat Rock are 6 turns... More than enough to weaken a team for another poke to finish the sweep... Even if the sun setter just faint (which will not be good since it's going to be a 5-6 situation and the sun team will lose one sun setter) 4 turns are far more manageable than 7... That's why I personally think that banning Heat Rock could be healthier for the metagame than fully banning sun... Also, Victreebel itself isn't ban worthwhile at all, since isn't bulky or fast outside of Chlorophyll...

 

[mael]

i'd be all for banning heat rock; mainly because it is the least drastic change, but still enough of a change to limit the strength of sun severly. banning heat rock means that supporters must be played more conservatively; in order to do that you cannot simply sacrifice them to bring your sunsweeper in, which means you either need other ways to do it, or you won't get a lot of value out of the 3 turns sun you have.

this severly hinders allout sun teams, while it still gives sun some kind of room to play and allows stuff like sunny day-3atks-vic still to be used.

so banning heat rock is the most reasonable option in my opinion. if it doesn't work out as good as expected, you can always go one step further afterwards!

 

[Dundies]

So overall, i've had a lot of experience with sun, and I figured I'd give my take on it. To start with, Victreebel is the only sun abuser that's broken in my opinion, as it can put things to sleep, set up with Growth, and has the best coverage (although Sawsbuck's is pretty good too).

Ban Sunny Day
I'm just gonna say right now, banning Sunny Day isn't at all necessary, as sun alone is not at all a problem. For it to be broken, you have to have Chlorophyll abusers along with extra turns from Heat Rock. Therefore, I'm gonna say do not ban Sunny Day.

Ban Heat Rock
Personally, I think Heat Rock is what makes sun broken, as an extra 3 turns allows Victreebel to put something to sleep that tries to Sucker Punch or has Focus Sash or something like that, and pick up 2 more kills. Against balance with bulkier Pokemon, Victreebel can take the extra necessary turn or two to KO the given mon. Without Heat Rock, Victreebel gets 4 turns to actually do anything, and on offense or balance (the only two actual viable playstyles, not including bulky offense), there's basically always a Focus Sash/Sturdy or priority user that can either threaten Victreebel out or force it to use Sleep Powder, which causes it to waste a turn of sun. On bulky offense, theres basically always a mon that can can take a hit (Probopass, Grumpig, Ninetales as some examples), which allows it to pick up maybe one kill. In conclusion, I think we should ban Heat Rock and only Heat Rock.

Ban Victreebel
This is pretty self-explanatory. Victreebel without sun is in no way broken. I'd honestly say Victreebel without sun is a B-ranked Pokemon at best, as a special attacking set is outclassed by Roselia, who can set up Spikes, recover, and is much bulkier. I guess an SD set could be used, but the only real niche it would have over Jumpluff or Leafeon would be Sucker Punch, which isn't even STAB. Therefore, I'm voting do not ban Victreebel.

Ban Chlorophyll
To be honest, I have mixed feelings about banning, Chlorophyll, as sun would definitely no longer be broken, but I'm not sure that Chlorophyll is the problem with sun either. For now, I'd abstain on banning Chlorophyll.

Do Not Ban
My other points explain this.

 

[rubsomebacononit]

Ban Sunny Day
I don't see any point in banning Sunny Day, as the reason that it is suspected is because of sun setters, such as Volbeat, and sun abusers, such as Victreebel and Leafeon. Volbeat is arguably the best sun setter thanks to Prankster, but Golem and Onix are also viable sun setters and provide Stealth Rock support. They also have Explosion and U-turn to get in sun sweepers, such as Victreebel, safely. This makes Victreebel hard to switch into and allowing it to KO every unboosted Pokemon in the tier. It also puts a strain on Teambuilding, as there are no good switch ins to sun mons except possibly Jumpluff, and forcing teams to sack at least one Pokemon in order to switch in a teammate safely.

Ban Heat Rock
Heat Rock is an interesting choice as it doesn't affect sun as much but it keeps it from being broken. Sun teams will have to think twice about bringing sun mons in. Banning Heat Rock may mean that suicide sun setters, such as Golem, will not be as effective in the long run, and maybe leaving room for more durable sun setters. It will also allow the player to be more aware of the limited turns of sun and maybe using them more wisely. This will be an interesting choice.

Ban Victreebel
I believe that Victreebel is not broken at all without Sun. Victreebel is easier to check without Sun being up, as its low speed gives it opportunities for other Pokemon to outspeed and kill it. There also isn't as much use to use Victreebel over Grass-types, such as Simisage and Leafeon, as Dundies mentioned.

Ban Chlorophyll
Chlorophyll may be an option to prevent sun from being a broke playstyle, but it will make no longer make sun viable. I'm not so sure about this but I think this should be banned ONLY if chlorophyll becomes too much of a problem.

Do Not Ban
Sun is definitely a problem and we have to do something about it, based on the reasons already mentioned

 

[Magnemite]

I've seen this argument tossed around a few times, and I think a lot of people are missing the point on it. Banning Victreebel does not in any way imply that its non-sun sets are broken; in fact quite the opposite. It implies that the collateral damage of banning non-sun Victreebel is less than it would be for banning Heat Rock and making Leafeon and Sawsbuck less effective. It's both the option with the least collateral damage and the option that most directly issues the problem, as non-Victreebel sun isn't broken and adds more to the metagame than non-sun Victreebel.

 

[Kingler]

Vic isn't really the only offender here, despite clearly being the main one; banning Heat Rock means we nerf sun as a whole so it's not broken anymore, while allowing ppl to use sun albeit to a much less effective degree, and thus seems to be the clearly better option. Banning moves shouldn't even be done unless there's an extreme circumstance that can't be solved otherwise (or w/o too much collateral damage); Heat Rock ban is simple and does exactly what we need to do to nerf sun.

as a sidenote i wanna vote for this one (and hence will be applying for the council) :)

 

[WhiteDMist]

Looks like I got outpaced again and most important points have been already expressed so I'll just give my opinion on what I would like to see banned among these options. To be honest I already expressed my opinion, not on this topic, about banning Victreebel, but I'll clarify it there too. Victreebel is of course the main reason behind this Sun, Heat Rock, or whatever name you want to call it suspect, because of its high speed under Sun along with extremely good coverage and excessive high sheer power for the tier. THOUGH, I don't think this is the best option to go, as Victreebel can run other set outside of the classic sun sweeper, such as the one Anty posted with Sunny Day + 3 Atk which isn't that bad but isn't too strong either, and the mixed attacker one, which also isn't too meh, also if you ban Victreebel I don't think people will ever start to play Sun teams again constantly(as if they do now lol), bc relying on two physical sweepers would be detrimental and Tangela clearly can't replace Victreebel as a special attacking sweeper, so the nerf Sawsbuck and Leafeon would receive banning Heat Rock isn't too much different there, they would just get a non direct nerf. That said, I think the most effective option is banning Heat Rock, as it will nerf Sun abusers already mentioned, but without completely shut down the playstyle itself. Banning Heat Rock just makes it harder to capitalize because of less Sun turns and actually gives a bigger chance to play around Sun teams when you got an even matchup, while the Sun user will actually have to use his mind to win and not play buttons randomly.
Will keep this short about Chlorophyll so, as a last note, I think banning Chlorophyll is decent, but it would be still too excessive and worse even than banning Victreebel itself, as it will shut down Sun, and every abuser that could be semi-useful even without Heat Rock, such as Sawsbuck and Tangela, but still not as broken with lesser sun turns, definitely.
Sorry if I sound redundant but I read other posts quickly so I don't know if I posted something that someone already talked about.

An interesting point for not banning Victreebel. Tangela is a lesser replacement, and the best Chlorophyll sweepers are physically based (Sawsbuck and Leafeon), so Sun suffers as a whole regardless of whether we ban Heat Rock or Victreebel. However, do you have proof that Leafeon and Sawsbuck alone are insufficient, or that Tangela will not work out very well? There are more viable physically defensive Pokemon in PU than specially defensive, but since both Leafeon and Sawsbuck commonly carry Swords Dance (the former also carries Knock Off, and both carry decent coverage), will that still not place a lot of pressure on the physically defensive Pokemon to stop them? It'll also be much easier for these guys if they still have more Sun turns, which they will not have without Heat Rock.

Heat Rock technically doubles the sun turns, because if you use a Prankster Setter like Volbeat, you just have to use two turns to set up the sun and U Turn out, which in normal sun are just three sun turns left, with Heat Rock are 6 turns... More than enough to weaken a team for another poke to finish the sweep... Even if the sun setter just faint (which will not be good since it's going to be a 5-6 situation and the sun team will lose one sun setter) 4 turns are far more manageable than 7... That's why I personally think that banning Heat Rock could be healthier for the metagame than fully banning sun... Also, Victreebel itself isn't ban worthwhile at all, since isn't bulky or fast outside of Chlorophyll...

I am fine with most of your points, except the last one. Why are we talking about Victreebel's merits OUTSIDE of Sun, when the whole point is that it is so overpowering IN the Sun? To repeat a previous question, please explain why we should not ban a Pokemon just because it has non-broken sets? Considering every "broken" Pokemon can carry mediocre sets themselves, should they also be unbanned because they can carry a worse set? I want to see people answer this question before saying something like this.

i'd be all for banning heat rock; mainly because it is the least drastic change, but still enough of a change to limit the strength of sun severly. banning heat rock means that supporters must be played more conservatively; in order to do that you cannot simply sacrifice them to bring your sunsweeper in, which means you either need other ways to do it, or you won't get a lot of value out of the 3 turns sun you have.

this severly hinders allout sun teams, while it still gives sun some kind of room to play and allows stuff like sunny day-3atks-vic still to be used.

so banning heat rock is the most reasonable option in my opinion. if it doesn't work out as good as expected, you can always go one step further afterwards!

Well, there is always the option to carry more than 2 Sun setters of course, but other than that your point is fine. However, the whole point of this suspect test is to find the most effective way to handle the situation with Sun. Why should we take the timid approach when we are supposed to actually solve the problem now to the best of our abilities?

So overall, i've had a lot of experience with sun, and I figured I'd give my take on it. To start with, Victreebel is the only sun abuser that's broken in my opinion, as it can put things to sleep, set up with Growth, and has the best coverage (although Sawsbuck's is pretty good too).

Ban Sunny Day
I'm just gonna say right now, banning Sunny Day isn't at all necessary, as sun alone is not at all a problem. For it to be broken, you have to have Chlorophyll abusers along with extra turns from Heat Rock. Therefore, I'm gonna say do not ban Sunny Day.

Ban Heat Rock
Personally, I think Heat Rock is what makes sun broken, as an extra 3 turns allows Victreebel to put something to sleep that tries to Sucker Punch or has Focus Sash or something like that, and pick up 2 more kills. Against balance with bulkier Pokemon, Victreebel can take the extra necessary turn or two to KO the given mon. Without Heat Rock, Victreebel gets 4 turns to actually do anything, and on offense or balance (the only two actual viable playstyles, not including bulky offense), there's basically always a Focus Sash/Sturdy or priority user that can either threaten Victreebel out or force it to use Sleep Powder, which causes it to waste a turn of sun. On bulky offense, theres basically always a mon that can can take a hit (Probopass, Grumpig, Ninetales as some examples), which allows it to pick up maybe one kill. In conclusion, I think we should ban Heat Rock and only Heat Rock.

Great points though, tbf, extra turns don't exactly make it any easier for Victreebel to break through Probopass and Grumpig. It can Sleep Powder them either way we go. You're right that 3-4 turns is all Victreebel has, which is really short against bulkier teams. But let's look at the efficiency of banning Sun. Sun setters will have to run other items, but that's not exactly a terrible thing: Leftovers can help the more bulky setters in Carbink and Volbeat continuously set up Sun, while now Onix and Golem are free to use something like Custap Berry to get a quick Sunny Day off as well. You can also run another Sun setter, as I've said before, to make up for the shorter Sun turns. Will banning Heat Rock be sufficient enough to suppress Sun's dominating factor?

Ban Victreebel
This is pretty self-explanatory. Victreebel without sun is in no way broken. I'd honestly say Victreebel without sun is a B-ranked Pokemon at best, as a special attacking set is outclassed by Roselia, who can set up Spikes, recover, and is much bulkier. I guess an SD set could be used, but the only real niche it would have over Jumpluff or Leafeon would be Sucker Punch, which isn't even STAB. Therefore, I'm voting do not ban Victreebel.

There really isn't any reason to talk about non-Sun sets, when we are debating over Sun. No point repeating my question again, but please answer the question I asked twice.

Ban Chlorophyll
To be honest, I have mixed feelings about banning, Chlorophyll, as sun would definitely no longer be broken, but I'm not sure that Chlorophyll is the problem with sun either. For now, I'd abstain on banning Chlorophyll.

Do Not Ban
My other points explain this.

Answering in green bold to make this easier.

Vic isn't really the only offender here, despite clearly being the main one; banning Heat Rock means we nerf sun as a whole so it's not broken anymore, while allowing ppl to use sun albeit to a much less effective degree, and thus seems to be the clearly better option. Banning moves shouldn't even be done unless there's an extreme circumstance that can't be solved otherwise (or w/o too much collateral damage); Heat Rock ban is simple and does exactly what we need to do to nerf sun.

as a sidenote i wanna vote for this one (and hence will be applying for the council) :)

Why is it the clearly better option? If we ban Victreebel, if will also nerf Sun as a whole without too much collateral damage. It's also simple.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Just for reference, you can agree with more than 1 side as well. We will be using the Instant Run-Off Voting system. How the voting process will work is that those who qualify will vote for the options they believe are best, in the order of their preference. So don't be afraid to look at, and argue for, other points. I'll edit the suspect post as well, for everyone's easy reference.

 

[Kingler]

Why is it the clearly better option? If we ban Victreebel, if will also nerf Sun as a whole without too much collateral damage. It's also simple.

Sun as a playstyle needs to be nerfed. Victreebel under sun is a huge problem. Imo pretty much the only ways to go about it is what you said (banning victreebel) or banning Heat Rock. As said before, Victreebel has a cool non-dedicated-sun set that is perfectly fine in the tier. While banning Victreebel does seem like it would cause "less collateral damage," sun as a playstyle is match-up reliant and unhealthy for the tier. It clearly does well against some teams and not as well unless they specifically prepare for it. Sun is not something one covers naturally during teambuilding phase with common mons, it needs to specifically be prepared for.

The Heat Rock ban doesn't invalidate any Pokemon completely (sun can still be used but with much more pronounced downsides that make it less favourable to use) while nerfing sun, which we've pretty much determined to be broken, as a whole.

EDIT- I wouldn't be opposed to a Vic ban really, it's just that heat rock ban doesn't ban any mon explicitly while not invalidating sun as a whole, so it's really a win-win and fits in with the "ban as little as possible" philosophy. i think this is more of a ban philosophy thing than the actual problem tbh.

 

[Grim]

Well, why should the ability to use a couple of, in your words "mediocre" sets make banning Victreebel an inferior option? Smogon has never allowed the presence of lesser sets to prevent them from banning a Pokemon, as any "broken" Pokemon can be considered "not broken" or "mediocre" with lesser sets. Why should this be a different case? Please elaborate, as I am quite interested in this perspective.

It's mostly because I'd rather ban at least as possible while still solving the problem. Banning Victreebel is also a good option that I am still considering but a Heat Rock ban solves the problem while still allowing the use of Victreebel. It's also the fact that sun in general is a very matchup reliant playstyle with the matchup often being in the sun users favor and that still exists even without Victreebel, although it would be easier to deal with. I'm not necessarily against banning Victreebel, both options are fine by me. I agree with what Kingler said above, I have pretty much the same opinion on the matter.

 

[Anty]

Most people here are just focussing on what is the best way to nerf sun rather than explaining if sun is broken or not. Since i have already done that im just gonna say which method i think is most suitable, which is to ban heat rock.

Firstly this ban would cause the least amount of repercussions. The only time you would use heat rock is on dedicated sun teams, and since this is what we are suspecting obviously it is fine to be nerfed. Banning sunny day wouldnt be too problematic outside of sun other than are sets for leafeon and victreebel (possibly more), although rare, use sunny day in a non-broken way, however this means sun teams are gone rather than nerfed which does effect the tier and versatility regarding playstyles. Banning chlorophyll does basically the same thing (sucker victreebel would be illegal tho). Banning Victreebel does the most damage to the tier as it does have at least one viable set. Even if this set is not too often seen it is still very viable so makes this option less favourable as the only way we want to tamper with the meta is by only banning broken things, and although this does not comply this doesnt make it a definite no rather than less preferable.

Another big thing in suspects is whether this solves the problem, and im going to do this paragraph in the view that sun is broken. Judging from the other paragraph the only reason why people may not want to do this is if 1. they dont feel like it will solve the problem (will get to that later) or 2. there is a better way to nerf the playstyle. Banning chloro/sunny day makes sun teams impossible so definitely will solve the problem however it would be better i feel if we make the playstyle viable but not broken (i will talk more about this later two). This means im narrowing what i think we should do to two solutions; banning heat rock or victreebel. Without heat rock sunny day sweepers are down to 3 turns of sun max (or 4 if they set it up themselves which is harder to do) which means they do not just have a harder time sweeping, but are also easier to play around. Obviously this does not mean the definitely wont be broken but does suggest that they wont. Banning victreebel will make sun teams more viable than if we ban heat rock i feel, as leafeon and sawsbuck are amazing pokemon in the sun, however this option i dont feel will completely solve the problem, as even if sawsbuck and leafeon do have similar checks, they can work together to get passed them (eg, leafeon knocks off tangela and can put it in range of +2 sawsbuck) and also there is a possibility of a pokemon taking victreebels spot, either bellossom, which has strength + bulk + speed for all non-scarfers, but lacks poison-stab, or even weepinbell, which is a weaker victreebel that is outsped by more scarfers.

Also an important thing to note is that if the problem isnt solved we can always suspect it again (see: baton pass). This would mean banning sunny day or chlorophyll (or victreebel + heat rock maybe?) which would ensure the strategy is not broken. In this situation the previous nerf would be made redundant so would be undone. This shows that the first thing we should do (if we are to do something) would be to either ban heat rock or victreebel (this reasoning does not effect what choice would be better to do). So what it comes down to is what situation is more preferred:
Having a weaker sun (which i guess could still be broken) and another pokemon
Or having a stronger sun but with a banned pokemon

Unfortunately we can not tell if sun w/o victreebell is still broken or if sun w/o heat rock is still viable. And before people saying 'banning victreebel would be better as its side effect would be easier (and also possible) to fix', remember that it means banning just heat rock is out of the question so we will not know whether sun would still be still be viable in a meta with victreebel, which would be the best possible solution IMO (even if it is less likely than a meta with victreebel banned and sun viable but not broken).

 

[Raiza]

An interesting point for not banning Victreebel. Tangela is a lesser replacement, and the best Chlorophyll sweepers are physically based (Sawsbuck and Leafeon), so Sun suffers as a whole regardless of whether we ban Heat Rock or Victreebel. However, do you have proof that Leafeon and Sawsbuck alone are insufficient, or that Tangela will not work out very well? There are more viable physically defensive Pokemon in PU than specially defensive, but since both Leafeon and Sawsbuck commonly carry Swords Dance (the former also carries Knock Off, and both carry decent coverage), will that still not place a lot of pressure on the physically defensive Pokemon to stop them? It'll also be much easier for these guys if they still have more Sun turns, which they will not have without Heat Rock.

Personally, I'll try to find as much informations I can regarding the viability of double physical attackers under Sun or Tangela as a replacement, I already started to ladder, I hope I can find decent data to report here. Anyway, regarding using both Sawsbuck and Leafeon as abusers, even if they reveal themselves to be good, Victreebel ban won't solve the problem Sun has anyway, as it will nerf Sun, but it will also make it even more matchup reliant, and we don't even know if Sun reveals to be still as good with this pattern. So, if we jump to conclusion too early, we will just risk a pointless ban, I think we have to see how this suspect evolves, also I want to note we are trying to accomplish a ban philosophy that consists in banning as less things as we can, so banning Victreebel as a whole will mean we are cutting off even its other sets I already mentioned, while an Heat Rock ban will nerf a bit more heavily Sun, I still think it won't be very mediocre. Fortunately, I can bring back a Victreebel set I talked about earlier, the Sunny Day + 3 Attacks, which I think can work in a post-heat rock ban scenario and keep Sun decent, while still not being as broken as a Sleep Powder + 3 Attack abuser.

random logs

While I was writing this I was also playing a room tournament, I can share there the logs:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-243792273 : In this first one, my opponent was using Tangela + Clefairy, a build that I think is able to threaten this new sun pattern with ease, though he threw it away just saccing his Clefairy against my Leafeon and so I won, but that was just because I got paired against a non-competent player. As you can see, even running Knock Off Leafeon, I couldn't get past Tangela until the last turn, as Leafeon carries pity spdef and couldn't get through Tangela, which can stall it easily with Synthesis(which also gets a boost under Sun) or swiftly KO it with Sludge Bomb.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pu-243795365 : In the second one I actually went against someone with some meta knowledge and I got trashed. From this battle I realized how Sleep Powder actually matters to Sun against specific Sun and builds. For example, Sun will be extremely weak to Pokemon such as Pawniard, which if running Sucker Punch can easily get rid of Sawsbuck, which has mediocre Def and can be KO'd after little prior damage, easy gainable as it isn't that durable. If i had Victree right there I could've just slept it and get rid of at least two but maybe three of his Pokemon, and the result of the battle could've changed.

 

[Dundies]

An interesting point for not banning Victreebel. Tangela is a lesser replacement, and the best Chlorophyll sweepers are physically based (Sawsbuck and Leafeon), so Sun suffers as a whole regardless of whether we ban Heat Rock or Victreebel. However, do you have proof that Leafeon and Sawsbuck alone are insufficient, or that Tangela will not work out very well? There are more viable physically defensive Pokemon in PU than specially defensive, but since both Leafeon and Sawsbuck commonly carry Swords Dance (the former also carries Knock Off, and both carry decent coverage), will that still not place a lot of pressure on the physically defensive Pokemon to stop them? It'll also be much easier for these guys if they still have more Sun turns, which they will not have without Heat Rock.


I am fine with most of your points, except the last one. Why are we talking about Victreebel's merits OUTSIDE of Sun, when the whole point is that it is so overpowering IN the Sun? To repeat a previous question, please explain why we should not ban a Pokemon just because it has non-broken sets? Considering every "broken" Pokemon can carry mediocre sets themselves, should they also be unbanned because they can carry a worse set? I want to see people answer this question before saying something like this.


Well, there is always the option to carry more than 2 Sun setters of course, but other than that your point is fine. However, the whole point of this suspect test is to find the most effective way to handle the situation with Sun. Why should we take the timid approach when we are supposed to actually solve the problem now to the best of our abilities?


Answering in green bold to make this easier.



Why is it the clearly better option? If we ban Victreebel, if will also nerf Sun as a whole without too much collateral damage. It's also simple.

Honestly, I think the extra turns are huge for sun, and without them, sun much easier to beat for any playstyle, but another option, as Magnemite said, would be to ban Victreebel. Victreebel is the real problem with sun, as it has Sleep Powder to take on bulkier Pokemon, basically perfect coverage, and it is able to set up with Growth.