Metagame np: Stage 2 - Teardrop - Victreebel Banned

[WhiteDMist]

credit to galbia for doing all the work for this np :P

This time around the PU tier got no new toys, or "drops" at all so it is just time to .cry

However the metagame could shake up a little bit since we lost the defogger with the best matchup against hazards setters, Prinplup, and a solid wallbreaker and Choice Scarf user in Haunter.
Both were neither centralizing or too important threats in this tier but had a solid place in Viability Ranking and a lot of teams.

In any case here are the usual potential discussion topics to start talking in this threads

• New Stage - If there are tier shifts, make some predictions on what the metagame will be like or comment on the changes
• Suspect Testing - If you believe that anything is worthy of a suspect test, post about it and why you think it deserves a suspect test. (nothing will be chosen as a suspect until at least two weeks in though, if even that)
• Metagame trends - What are the most common or effective strategies? Are there any Pokemon that you think will rise in usage?
• Top threats - What should the main priorities be when considering a team for NU?
• Playstyles - Which are most effective? Are there any that cannot succeed?
• Cores - What are some popular or solid cores? Why do they work so well, and what can be used to beat them?
• Underrated Pokemon - Just because a Pokemon isn't used much doesn't mean its bad! There are plenty of hidden gems scattered throughout low NU and PU, and possibly even Little Cup!
• New sets - If you have a unique set that you've had success with recently, share it.

You can find the usage stats and a list of playable PU Pokemon here here

Current PU Banlist (BL4):
Kecleon
Throh

 

[Raiza]

Like I think the majority of the PU community, I didn't enjoy this tier shift a lot, was hoping to get at least something to shake up the tier a little more but oh well. Metagame didn't change a lot so ill keep it short and just give some inputs.

Prinplup was already not used a lot so I don't really mind about it, but I guess its a loss for balanced teams that appreciated something not squishy and not weak to Stealth Rock, while entry hazard stacking teams will be happy about Prinplup's departure from PU, as getting a bulky Defogger out the way is always nice for them, especially if it was the only viable one to be not weak to Stealth Rock, and also for offensive teams that rely on pressure entry hazard control, to prevent their hazards from getting removed.
Haunter instead is a relatively big loss, as it was one of the best Choice Scarf users out there, and Ghost-Poison typing was great, especially for its coverage amnd Speed tier that made it effective as a revenge killer and cleaner, outspeeding other common Scarfers such as Mr. Mime, and made it only struggle against dedicated special walls such as Lickilicky, still being able to open holes early game thanks to Destiny Bond. Gastly looks bad as a replacement because 15 base Speed lost make it slower than things such as Mr. Mime, and also 15 less base Special Attack make it miss out important KOs on most of offensive Pokemon Haunter used to deal with.

I also wanted to bring up Sunny Day and Heat Rock as a point of discussion, seeing how sun as a playstyle got popular and known lately, even if it was always good, and we didn't talk a lot about it earlier in the other NP thread. We could talk about things that can beat sun, such as Chlorophyll Jumpluff, which is getting also popular, and also other weather in general, such as Rain, which still has some underrated threats still to be discovered, as I also didn't try them a lot, and Hail, that recently got Snow Warning Aurorus, as in my opinion they are valid options to contrast sun, but I'll probably mention all of this in another post.

e: .cry

 

[Dundies]

Like Raiza said, this tier shift honestly sucked from PU's point of view. Although losing Prinplup and Haunter isn't going to be an extreme change to the meta, it's still a bummer that nothing dropped. Nonetheless, WakafLUKEaflame showed me a really cool set that could be a real threat in the current meta.

Gourgeist-Super @ Life Orb
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Sneak
- Synthesis

The reason I think this set could really be a threat in the current meta is because of it's ability to take on most of the S-ranks and it's surprise factor. The premises of the set is to lure in Pokemon such as Tangela and hit it hard with Fire Blast. Shadow Sneak has a chance to OHKO Mr.Mime without Filter, which just became a less useful ability with the leaving of Haunter.

In regards to Sun, I definitely think it could be a major threat, as it always has really, but Chlorophyll Jumpluff, like Raiza said and maybe even Fletchling (although less viable) might start to see more usage.

 

[Magnemite]

Okay so a tier shift just happened but I'd like to talk about two broken playstyles that really have no place being in PU: Smashpass and Sun.

Let's start with the more obvious of the two, smashpass. Really there's not even much to say about smashpass, it's just disgustingly easy to win with. All you have to do is set up SR, set up the right screen, paralyze / yawn something, set up the other screen, let them kill Meowstic, go into Huntail which sets up on 90% of the tier under screens even ridiculous stuff like Life Orb Zebstrika and Adamant Torterra and then just pass to one of your remaining three Pokemon which can easily sweep at +2. I've played about 15 or so games with smashpass, and the only time I can recall losing was against rain because my Huntail had Water Veil and not Swift Swim. The rest of the games were basically autowins, and against any team that doesn't have a phazer or play extremely well with a Sleep Powder user it's basically impossible to lose with smashpass if you know what you're doing (and arguably if you don't). Basically the tier has nothing to handle +2 +2 +2 Regice / Stoutland / whatever behind screens, and it's simply way too easy to accomplish this for this playstyle to be anything but unhealthy to PU.

Now sun is a bit less obvious, but I also think it is unhealthy for the tier and way too matchup reliant. Offensive teams have no reliable way outside of Chlorophyll Jumpluff to handle 3 extremely potent wallbreakers that outspeed the entire tier, all of which have options like Sleep Powder or Baton Pass or a good boosting move or a 66% recovery move. It's also very good against bulkier teams because of how strong the Chlorophyll mons are and how all of them have a setup move that lets them easily break through more defensive teams. Like with smashpass, when I use sun I always get the feeling that I'm either winning with little effort or losing because my opponent has the one specific thing that gives me trouble (which is really just chloro jumpluff to be honest), so I feel like it's just plain unhealthy to have around in the metagame, even if it isn't outright broken (which it may or may not be).

So basically at this point I'm advocating for a suspect of Shell Smash + Baton Pass and Heat Rock. I'm not entirely sure about sun but I'm completely convinced that smashpass should be banned from PU.

Also if people want i'm not opposed to suspecting Carracosta and Barbaracle, but I don't think I would ban either of them at the moment.

e: using scarf hp poison misdreavus because i miss you haunter frend ;_;

 

[Raiza]

I see that Magnemite outpaced me, so yeah I just wanted to add that I'm totally fine with suspecting Shell Smash, I mean it's totally obvious that in a tier like PU, which is inclined to offense and populated by offensive teams, having something such as Shell Smash along with Baton Pass, that allows already scary threats such as Stoutland and Regice to get boosts reliably and with a low risk-high reward, as Huntail can be stopped only in rare cases, is unhealthy, as they can just steamroll through most teams and even defensive cores, without even needing that much of outplay or thinking. While I may be a bit on the fence about sun, I also feel that suspecting Heat Rock would be the right step to make the playstyle less scary , less mindless to play, and easier to handle, as people will have to be a lot more wary about wasting sun turns, this, other than limiting the effectiveness of sun, will also mean that moves such as Synthesis and Sleep Powder, which are commonly run by sun abusers such as Leafeon and Victreebel, will be used less frequently, along with boosting moves too, making sun more manageable by defensive teams, such as stall which already has a decent matchup against it.

 

[Kingler]

A shell smash ban actually sounds good to me; Huntail, Carracosta, and Barb are prolly broken so this would be able to ban their broken set while allowing us to use stuff like Coil Huntail and lead barbaracle. The only problem for me is that smash huntail in itself isn't really too ridiculous and ppl want it gone for smashpass, which does mean that this clause has a flaw, but suspecting BP sounds good to me.

Sun is also pretty fucking gay, Victreebel essentially has a grand total of 0 counters (a few checks but Life Orb Solar Beam + Sleep Powder + coverage is a bitch), so suspecting that wouldn't hurt imo.

I'll prolly make a bigger post later after laddering/playing a bit more.

edit- just realized a smash ban was dumb since torkoal and lolmagcargo are two pokes affected outside of it, thus making it a bad idea. smashpass is the way to go.

EDIT - Megazard everything there except for Hypno (which is almost in 2HKO range after rocks) and Quilladin is crippled by sleep powder...

 

[MZ]

list of things that counter Victreebel

Quilladin (although growth does a lot to it before being roared out)
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Quilladin: 121-143 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Aurorus (ideally scarf to kill if it goes for solarbeam)
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Ice) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aurorus in Hail: 69-82 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aurorus: 94-110 (24.2 - 28.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO
Lickilicky (LO stalls non growth sets)
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 175-207 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hypno (Can wish/tect life orb stall or get rid of Victreebel with LO+Psychic and makes it hard to growth, also has protect)
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hypno: 153-181 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spdef Ninetales (if no rocks up which is entirely possible considering sun's difficulty with getting hazards)
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninetales: 126-149 (36 - 42.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not that sun isn't broken, just that "no counters" is getting on my nerves Kingler12345

 

[Anty]

Since what is broken is being talked a lot i might as well talk more about certain pokes in the meta (im surprisingly not completely dead - although i wont be playing /too/ much)

Hide

Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 136 SpA / 124 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Pain Split

Missy has really been struggling staying up with the metagame, as there are much less balance builds which nasty plot has fun with, and there are less pokes on offense the defensive set properly deals with. This set is pretty much a mix of the two, with the speed for stoutland (yaya facade who care) but i feel its the most effective as it can tank hits, while also having some offensive potential and can still effectively utilise its amazing utility.

Dodrio @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drill Peck
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Baton Pass
For people who dont know double edge and baton pass are illegal with brave bird, so naturally people go with bb due to better coverage and having a stronger secondary STAB, however i am feeling that not only is normal better coverage (less ghosts more electrics), but also baton pass is too important to drop. Pair it with magnet pull probo for best effectiveness (also helps if u have already gone for knock off).

Victreebel @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sunny Day
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
I played with this today a bit and it has been pretty fun. Its played similarly to rain dance poliwrath, ie w/o other sun pokes but just as a late game sweeper, and although it lacks the bulk and priority resistances wrath has, the power is more than enough to make up for it. Obviously you can run solarbeam, but i dont like it having effectively one attack if not in sun.

Im not going into a set, but to raizas dismay i believe that this has gotten a bit better in the metagame. Prankster twave is just so amazing as it stops sweepers, smash passers, and even sun to an extent. Sash twave kadabra is also cool due to its reliability.


I dont really have a stance on sun at the moment, but i have to say that listing counters is dumb (ursaring has no counters but is not broke, throh had no counters but was broke, tauros had counters but was broke)

 

[Dundies]

Kadabra @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

This is another set I've been using over Sash Kadabra that still allows you avoid Sucker Punch, but this set hits much harder. I also find that a lot of the time when you use Sash Kadabra, people will use their weaker priority just to break your Sash as they sack a Pokemon (Poliwrath's Vacuum Wave for example), which allows you a free Substitute. This can also be use to avoid Thunder Wave from the likes of SpD Grumpig who can't do much to you outside of Thunder Wave.

I would support the suspect of Shell Smash + Baton Pass, but I don't see the reason to ban just one of the two. Shell Smash is a cool move on things like offensive Huntail and Offensive Rapid Spin Torkoal (which aren't broken by any means) and Baton Pass is a great move for momentum on some Pokemon (Anty's Dodrio for example).

 

[2xTheTap]

EDIT - Megazard everything there except for Hypno (which is almost in 2HKO range after rocks) and Quilladin is crippled by sleep powder...

The mons Zard listed are pretty solid for stopping Victreebel, even if you consider some of them to be checks and not hard counters. I haven't had a hard time laddering against Sun, especially when I use this little guy:

Quilladin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 204 Atk / 52 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Drain Punch / Zen Headbutt
- Wood Hammer
- Spikes

Quilladin should get a special mention for stopping Victreebel and Sun overall by being immune to Sleep Powder / Resisting Solar Beam / Being Immune to Sludge Bomb / Being Immune to Weather Ball. If it runs a small amount of Special Defense EVs (52 SpD with no HP), it'll never be 2HKO'd by just LO 252 SpA Modest Solar Beam:

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 52 SpD Eviolite Quilladin: 110-131 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Furthermore, you can run Zen Headbutt on Quilladin to finish off a weakened Victreebel. With the set I gave, it's an easy 2HKO:

204 Atk Quilladin Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victreebel: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Quilladin of course also has the option of running full Defense and HP with Synthesis and Roar for phazing, which means other Sun abusers like Sawsbuck and Leafeon have a hard time breaking past it. Quilladin eats up these hits and can often get up a free layer of Spikes, which shortens the lifespans of Sun sweepers with LO (namely Victreebel) even more so.

Another mon that has an easy time with Victreebel is RestTalk SpDef Zweilous. It is only 3HKO'd by Sludge Bomb, and you can either phaze Victreebel out and waste Sun turns, or Crunch it for the 2HKO. You can also use Sleep Talk on a predicted Sleep Powder, which is lolworthy.

Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Roar / Dragon Tail
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 107-126 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 49.6% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Hustle Zweilous Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victreebel: 160-189 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Raiza]

I might as well post some Pokemon that in my opinion can do well against sun, as everyone is posting theirs.

Jumpluff
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Memento
- Sleep Powder
- Acrobatics
- Seed Bomb

Jumpluff is known for being a great set up sweeper and cleaner, thanks to its high Speed and access to Sleep Powder, which gives it many free turns to set up, but another thing I want to note is Chlorophyll, which can be really useful on offensive teams when using Jumpluff, to catch off-guard sun teams, as the three main sun abusers, Sawsbuck, Leafeon, and Victreebel, are all weak to Flying-type and, thanks to Chlorophyll, are outpaced by Jumpluff both without or with sun. The lack of Infiltrator doesn't really matter most of the times, and Chlorophyll nowadays just comes in hand a lot often, so I recommend to all of you to use Chlorophyll instead of Infiltrator, if you want something on offensive teams that can deal with sun.

JEWISH PINK MAN (Hypno) @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Seismic Toss

I talked about offensive Pokemon to deal with sun so I might as well post something else that can help and fit on defensive teams. Hypno, thanks to its high Special Defense, and access to Insomnia and a decent utility movepool, is able to fit on defensive teams to provide Wish support and succesfully counter or at least check Victreebel, one of the most popular sun abusers, as it is immune to Sleep Powder and can cripple Victreebel with Thunder Wave or directly attack it, even if in most cases it will be forced to switch so may as well go for Thunder Wave to cripple the switch in, or risk a Toxic.

 

[Anty]

Making a small post as i dont have much time, but i just wanted to say that its completely dumb to say that 'victreebel is easily checked therefore sun isnt broken'. Im not going to mention how so far all the checks mentioned have been fairly niche (most only fit on defensive teams, others like zen headbutt lead quill is dumb as it still gets fucked), but im going to mention that sawsbuck and leafeon do exist. As i said, most of those pokes only really fit into defensive teams (which tend to be worse), and there is a correlation between the other chloro pokes and ones which fuck defensive teams (along with half the meta xd). Sun will almost always have a fire mon too and it is difficult taking sun boosted fire blasts/flare blitz's from stuff like ninetales and rapidash.

I also feel that most people are missing out on a big point about how most offensive teams deal with sun, by soft checking. Standard offensive teams wont run any of those victreebel checks listed above (auroras is pretty niche as offense want scarfers that beat fraxure/barbaracle etc), so often they try and sack things and stall out turns of sun, or try and revenge kill grass types with piloswine/kadabra/whatever. Taunt is also a nice move to screw over sun leads and simipour can pretty much guarantee a kill (which can include ko'ing their lead and crippling their second sun setter - this is also a reason i like golem over onix). However, i feel that whether sun is broken or not depends on how easy and effectively teams can do this. Obviously trying to stall out sun turns is incredibly predict heavy and unreliable, but having bulky twave shit can be effective. From playing whenever i definitely feel that this deserves a suspect (doesnt mean ban), and i also encourage every one to use it, to firstly test to see if it is broken, but also because i dont think people are seeing sun as the threat it is, and different versions of sun teams may be too hard to handle

 

[2xTheTap]

Making a small post as i dont have much time, but i just wanted to say that its completely dumb to say that 'victreebel is easily checked therefore sun isnt broken'. Im not going to mention how so far all the checks mentioned have been fairly niche (most only fit on defensive teams, others like zen headbutt lead quill is dumb as it still gets fucked), but im going to mention that sawsbuck and leafeon do exist. As i said, most of those pokes only really fit into defensive teams (which tend to be worse), and there is a correlation between the other chloro pokes and ones which fuck defensive teams (along with half the meta xd). Sun will almost always have a fire mon too and it is difficult taking sun boosted fire blasts/flare blitz's from stuff like ninetales and rapidash.

No, not saying Sun isn't broken; simply saying that I include mons like Quilladin (either defensive or taunt lead), SpDef Zweilous and others on most of my teams to check Sun Sweepers, as it's an extremely prevalent playstyle. You have to prepare for it, because it is very common on the ladder right now, especially thanks to Dundies most recent Sample Team being added (I know other people like Landscaper Offense / Crimzig play with it regularly, too).

 

[WhiteDMist]

Update

So it's been a week since the tier shift, and the metagame hasn't changed significantly enough to put this off any longer. We're having a quicksuspect for the combination of Shell Smash and Baton Pass on a single Pokemon (aka SmashPass). The only Pokemon capable of using this strategy in PU, Huntail, is still plenty viable without this combination. The PU Council will have 48 hours from now to cast a vote, which is enough time for the PU community to express their thoughts regarding SmashPass.

 

[Kingler]

From my experiences and what little I can gather from theorymon, SmashPass honestly is incredibly easy and linear to use. Setting up screens (which is optional tbh) and then passing a boost from Huntail (which under screens can set up on stuff like Zebstrika if the situation calls for it) to, say, Stoutland, is basically GG. Priority isn't even very effective in this regard as abusers like Stoutland can easily take, say, Poliwrath's Vacuum Wave or Pawniard's Sucker Punch (which doesn't even 2HKO) and OHKO both with a CB Return after Rocks. There's also little to be gained from keeping this in the tier, considering how incredibly effective it is despite being so linear, and aggravates the matchup issue (just like normal Baton Pass aids). It's very hard to beat a +2 Stoutland or Ursaring ESPECIALLY when your team has been worn down (w/ White Herb you have no Defense drops and said abusers have naturally decent bulk and great power). Honestly one could make the argument of it being uncompetitive but that wouldn't even be necessary considering just how broken this is.

Just as a bottom line, I'd advocate for SmashPass to be banned.

 

[Dundies]

I have used SmashPass, played against SmashPass, and watched others play with SmashPass and there are a few things I noticed right off the bat. If you don't have a phaser, Encore user, Taunt user, or a very well played Sleep Powder user, you're going to lose. With Stealth Rock up, the combination of Meowstic and Huntail can set up and pass extremely easily into one of the tiers biggest offensive threats (there's a lot of those) and win the game by basically just spamming it's main STAB or its coverage move. With Reflect and Light Screen up, Huntail basically sets up on the whole tier with screens up, and with ease. I've seen a few recipients that stood out to me (Stoutland, Regice, and Servine), all of which I noticed a few pretty big things. 1. They don't just die to a few priority moves. 2. Basically nothing in the tier can take two hit from them at +2. 3. Nothing relevant outspeeds them at +2. Because SmashPass is basically an auto-win if you don't come unprepared and because of the sheer uncompetitiveness, I have come to the conclusion that we should BAN SMASHPASS.

 

[MZ]

>implying this won't get banned
Idk what else to say since dundies and Kingler have already said everything. I guess what I can say is that it isn't broken per say, just overcentralizing. It's quite easy to stop if you're running something with phazing, ideally with a kadabra, but how many teams want to do that? Phazing is very hard to splash other than Grumpig's last move. And if you lack these things, it's basically gg unless you're using sun and have prankster Volbeat with encore or can stall out the screens and beat it with your own +2. You can beat smash pass, but only if running niche/just as broken things, so ban this pls

 

[TheMCGamer13]

Smashpass is very easy to set up since it only takes two turns to Shell Smash and Baton Pass. It can even be used more than once if you don't mind the defense drops. This means that many top-tier attacking threats can become sweepers in a single battle. The Pokemon that receives the Shell Smash can easily plow through unprepared teams. This even works on Pokemon that are lackluster at first. A team without a bulky Pokemon will almost always be defeated. Based on these facts I believe we should Ban Smashpass.

Edit: I think I should have also mentioned that I have not seen Smashpass in action a lot, so this is just what I could gather from playing the tier for a while and making assumptions.

 

[Anty]

>implying this won't get banned
Idk what else to say since dundies and Kingler have already said everything. I guess what I can say is that it isn't broken per say, just overcentralizing. It's quite easy to stop if you're running something with phazing, ideally with a kadabra, but how many teams want to do that? Phazing is very hard to splash other than Grumpig's last move. And if you lack these things, it's basically gg unless you're using sun and have prankster Volbeat with encore or can stall out the screens and beat it with your own +2. You can beat smash pass, but only if running niche/just as broken things, so ban this pls

I completely disagree with your premise tbh (tho i agree w/ your conclusion), i would say it is outright broken rather than centralising. It also is quite hard to be centralising considering how its impossible to run a counter due to how many options there are to BP to (kadabra usage is increasing anyway w/ more sun and the fact that this metagame is arguably based around set up sweepers). Also grumpig isnt a very reliable check considering they arent going to be setting up on a grumpig, and when you come in huntail can smash you with a +2 waterfall which does 75% from experiences, which also shows that it is too much for the tier to prepare for. It also isnt centralising in a restrictive matter as its not like there are any particular mons that are particularly weak, its just out right broken due how difficult it is to stop a +2 speed and (sp)attack stoutland or leafeon or whatever as this metagame is so offensive orientated without enough defensive pokes to deal with these offensive behemoths especcially when combined with dumb stat boosts.

Since i told u guys about smashpass (being borderline broke) in xy but didnt voice it enough/nobody listened to, i would like to dedicate this song to the minisuspect:

Hide

 

[MZ]

I completely disagree with your premise tbh (tho i agree w/ your conclusion), i would say it is outright broken rather than centralising. It also is quite hard to be centralising considering how its impossible to run a counter due to how many options there are to BP to (kadabra usage is increasing anyway w/ more sun and the fact that this metagame is arguably based around set up sweepers). Also grumpig isnt a very reliable check considering they arent going to be setting up on a grumpig, and when you come in huntail can smash you with a +2 waterfall which does 75% from experiences, which also shows that it is too much for the tier to prepare for. It also isnt centralising in a restrictive matter as its not like there are any particular mons that are particularly weak, its just out right broken due how difficult it is to stop a +2 speed and (sp)attack stoutland or leafeon or whatever as this metagame is so offensive orientated without enough defensive pokes to deal with these offensive behemoths especcially when combined with dumb stat boosts.

Since i told u guys about smashpass (being borderline broke) in xy but didnt voice it enough/nobody listened to, i would like to dedicate this song to the minisuspect:

Hide

How did your scenario not agree with my point? You said you disagreed with me, but then agreed on how grumpig could phaze Huntail if it just switched in on the smash at which point you've wasted white herb so it isn't going to be subbing so kadabra can RK the sweeper, and that's if it sets up again. Plus grumpig is just one phazer. And maybe it's just me, but I tend to see more scald than waterfall and less offensive investment to get a sub up behind screens. Either way, pretty sure my point is still exactly the same

 

[Anty]

How did your scenario not agree with my point? You said you disagreed with me, but then agreed on how grumpig could phaze Huntail if it just switched in on the smash at which point you've wasted white herb so it isn't going to be subbing so kadabra can RK the sweeper, and that's if it sets up again. Plus grumpig is just one phazer. And maybe it's just me, but I tend to see more scald than waterfall and less offensive investment to get a sub up behind screens. Either way, pretty sure my point is still exactly the same

My point was saying grumpig couldnt (well would have to be at p much full health - i dont know the exact calc the 75% is just what happened from one of my battles), and people who run kadabra arent exactly focusing on smashpass rather than thinking about barbaracle/fraxure/costa/any other dangerous sweeper. PU really doesnt have a large amout of phasers really, defensive poli isnt really common, and what other decent phasers are there, avalugg is mediocre in this metagame and er roar leafeon? I dont really run much offensive EVs (had a benchmark but i cant remember what it is for) however waterfall just tends to be better for situations like this as i see more situations when huntail wants to do damage rather than fish for a burn. Either way it still does mean smashpass is broken in a regular way as there is little to nothing dealing with the strongest pokes in the tier at. TBH i probably shouldnt have responded to your first post because we are both agreeing that its broken, i guess its to do with why.

 

[ManOfMany]

My point was saying grumpig couldnt (well would have to be at p much full health - i dont know the exact calc the 75% is just what happened from one of my battles), and people who run kadabra arent exactly focusing on smashpass rather than thinking about barbaracle/fraxure/costa/any other dangerous sweeper. PU really doesnt have a large amout of phasers really, defensive poli isnt really common, and what other decent phasers are there, avalugg is mediocre in this metagame and er roar leafeon? I dont really run much offensive EVs (had a benchmark but i cant remember what it is for) however waterfall just tends to be better for situations like this as i see more situations when huntail wants to do damage rather than fish for a burn. Either way it still does mean smashpass is broken in a regular way as there is little to nothing dealing with the strongest pokes in the tier at. TBH i probably shouldnt have responded to your first post because we are both agreeing that its broken, i guess its to do with why.

Offensive Smashpass Huntail (which is the most common and best variant) has a 75% to OHKO a full-health Grumpig with a +2 waterfall

Also, phazers are a perfectly viable way to deal with smashpass. Yeah, not everyone uses Roar on Avalugg or Circle Throw on Poli, but if Smashpass is so good, then people should adapt to it. It isn't asking too much to put one phazer on your team.

However, smashpass does have ways to deal with phazers. Soundproof Mr.Mime can beat Avalugg if sturdy is broken, and Quilladin, but it does lose to Whirlwind Mr.Mime and isn't the best recipient due to its poor physical bulk. Misdreavus or Drifblim can switch in on Circle Throw Poli and are decent enough recipients.

Smashpass also has ways to deal with kadabra. Regice is one of the most common recipients, and running both Bullet seed and Wood Hammer on Torterra is an option, same for running Dual Chop on Fraxure, or Fury Swipes on one of the Simis. Still, Kadabra is an annoying thorn in Smashpass's side, and certainly a valid argument against it not being broken due to its being so common.

Sleep Powdering with a bulky grass-type is another common way of breaking smashpass, but this can be easily solved simply by running a Lum Berry on Ninetales or Regice. Eviolite Vital Spirit Magmar is also a fantastic recipient due to its massive bulk and passable coverage at +2 (it gets Psychic for Poliwrath and Focus Blast).

The point of this post is just to say that Smashpass has ways of dealing with almost all of its counters (except whirlwind Munchlax, fuck that thing). People haven't discovered them yet because smashpass is a relatively new phenomenon, but I have been using smashpass for 2+ months, and from experience I have to say that countering it isn't easy even if you have the right matchup.

Ban Smashpass

 

[gasquakee]

Having used smashpass extensively its really easy to just straight up win no questions asked. You just get one opportunity to set up screens or whatever(which isnt even hard mind you) and then go into Huntail and then win the game. Basically all the opposition can do is hope to have phazing(actually only roar or whirlwind assuming sub), taunt, or encore. Which is very over centralizing.

Ban would be my vote.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I faced Smashpass a couple of times, i've used it a little bit, so i can give my opinion about it:
Smashpass is as simple as you could get: You set up any kind of support, with screens or hazard most likely. Then, at the right time, bring Huntail & SmashPass, then BatonPass to something with high enough speed to outspeed the scarfs of the tier, enough power to break through most teams ( not hard at all, considering Stall is quite eh ) and if possible, avoid weaknesses to any kind of priority.
That's about it, it's as simple as that, and yet, and that's the reason we should in my opinion ban it, is that it's kind of hard to stop. If you're lacking a phazer, it's kind of hard to break through the defenses of Huntail under screens, and as i'm sure all of you know, +2 in offenses and speed is kind of like, GG WP i'm done with this game if you're lacking something to resist one hit ( or sashed with a lack of hazard, or Kadabra )

Ban it

 

[2xTheTap]

I don't really disagree with anything that's been said thus far, especially given phazers aren't very splashable on teams at all, outside of Balance and Stall team archetypes. With PU being predominantly offensively oriented right now, that basically boils down to the fact that phazers are fairly uncommon, which puts Smashpass over the edge in my mind.

Even if you do manage to fit phazing on some Pokemon, like Whirlwind Grumpig or Roar Piloswine, phazing isn't entirely reliable because you can choose Shell Smash recipients with Sleep Immunity (Jumpluff gives Smashpass a hard time with its Infiltrator Sleep Powder) or Pokemon like Mr. Mime who are immune to 2/3 of the phazing options that are available (ie. Dragon Tail via Fairy Typing and Roar via Soundproof).

Also, Huntail itself has a decent matchup against most common phazers at +2, as you can you run attacks like Surf/Waterfall, HP Flying, and Sucker Punch that OHKO a lot of Pokemon after Rocks.

Therefore, the best ways to stop it are bulkier phazers with Whirlwind, like Munchlax, Prankster Taunt/Encore users, like Volbeat and Murkrow, and finally, the all-but-forgotten move, Haze. These are all fairly niche options that I wouldn't run specifically for countering Smashpass; in other words, you could say that Smashpass is broken, but not centralizing. And because it is broken with very few options to counter it outright, I would vote to BAN SMASHPASS.