Discussion Thread -- MANAPHY

[Paltheos]

What make everyone consider this little guy to be broken is its RainRest set

I don't know what everybody thinks, but there is one thing I'll make clear: Manaphy was banned for its Tail Glow set (Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot), not Hydrorest. Take this as you will.

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

I don't know what everybody thinks, but there is one thing I'll make clear: Manaphy was banned for its Tail Glow set (Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot), not Hydrorest. Take this as you will.

LOL where did u get that from? it was hydro rest

 

[Veedrock]

LOL where did u get that from? it was hydro rest

Explain Phione then. >.>

I honestly think it's a mix of the two, but I wasn't competitive whenever that issue rolled around so I wouldn't know.

 

[Chrome]

1) Will this increase the number of Rain Dance teams?
2) Will this increase the number of Abomasnow/Tyranitar/Hippowdon to cancel out the rain?
3) Will this increase the number of Lapras or Vaporeon?

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Yes

I'm personally think it Uber, if T-Tar/Hippo switches in then Manaphy will rain dance the same turn which eliminates SS so they'll have to switch out and then back in, giving Manaphy two turns to Tail Glow.

Hippo's SS ability won't be as much use as he'll die to +2 Surf with ease which then lets Manaphy RD to its heart content.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Explain Phione then. >.>

Phione has base 80...
I dont think it would be so horrible, but theorymoning is not my thing. And, currently, DDMence, Kingdra, and LOLuke are far more menacing wihtout relying on 1 or 2 certain set ups

 

[Farewell]

Perhaps Shedinja will be on the rise too... Both because it can wall Manaphy, and because it can be on Manaphy teams once it clears Sandstreamers and scares away Fire types with Surf + Rain Dance...

Slowking will wall Manaphies without Grass Knot, and has a Nasty Plot of its own to strike back with Hidden Power [Electric], while Slacking off.

Honestly, there are things capable of walling Manaphy, here is a list so it doesn't seem so Uber:

Toxicroak (can take Grass Knots too)
Ludicolo (but it needs to watch out for Tail Glow Ice Beams)
Calm Mind Cresselia
Calm Mind Blissey
Roar + Wish Vaporeon
Calm Mind Celebi (Surf + Grass Knot versions)
Amnesia Regice
Abomasnow

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Explain Phione then. >.>

I honestly think it's a mix of the two, but I wasn't competitive whenever that issue rolled around so I wouldn't know.

Phione cannot boost its special attack. And even if it could, base 80 stats just doesn't cut it for a bulky water in OU.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I feel that Manaphy simply can do just about anything. It has pretty solid defensive stats, and can also outrun a fair number of Pokemon, as well as sweeping teams.

Manaphy has, also, a fair few more options to deal with counters. Signal Beam puts a dent in Ludicolo, Celebi, Cresselia and Abomosnow, Psychic obliterates Toxicroak and Heart Swap/Psych Up can hinder stat-uppers like Blissey and Regice. Toxic can also hinder walls that attempt to stop Manaphy outright.

Although Manaphy's physical movepool isn't large, it has access to Waterfall, U-turn and Return, which is about enough to cram a physical or mixed moveset together and surprise some of those common switch-ins.

I'm pretty sure Manaphy can also utilise Skill Swap and Shadow Ball to surprise other pokemon, as well as Calm Mind and max defence to turn it into a tank.

 

[ultimifier]

So lets say your opponent brings in manaphy on a CB scizor who just killed your opponents azelf with pursuit as it sets up rain dance (or some other pokemon, lets assume rain was set up).Suddenly a manaphy comes out.

Now who do you switch to???

lets say you switch to your specially defensive tyraitar because you know manaphy in the rain absolutely rapes blissey. Out comes a calm tyranitar with 120 special defense EVs and max HP. Manaphy uses tail glow and yo unotice that it DOES NOT have leftovers. Now what do you do? Max special attack manaphy with life orb deals minimum 403 damage to said tyranitar. If you stay in you eat a surf and die. If you switch out the pokemon eats a surf, takes a shitload of damage, and then manaphy can use another tail glow, rain dance, or worse an attack that isn't surf.

Manaphy is going to demolish any team that does not have a scarf explosion user, i do not see how you can stop this thing without completely making your team to counter it.

 

[mien]

Something that might be of interest to people:

Modest Manaphy Life Orb Tail Glowed (+2) Surf in the rain vs 176/80 Calm Blissey: 43.7 - 51.5% (57% chance to 2HKO with SR, taking Leftovers into account)

Note that Manaphy cannot be paralysed in the rain, and Thunderbolt from Blissey does <37% to it.

So Blissey, the all purpose special wall, cannot stand up to an offensive Manaphy in its element. By adding Manaphy to OU, I think the metagame would centralise too much around it, necessitating the use of things like Ludicolo and Vaporeon on every team.
LR.

Sorry for ruining for your fun but..
You still have to get the rain down and SR AND Tail glow before you can 2HKO it
Yes Manaphy is strong but you have to sacrifice another pokemon in order to set it up. So actually he is not much stronger then Kabutops is
Yea he is 'bulkier' but this doesn't give him a big advantage since rain only last a few turns, so Speed would have been much more helpfull here


Btw Heatran can also 2 HKO Blissey in sun

 

[Brawley]

Ummmmm this whole centralization thing is pretty stupid, we all have to run a gyarados counter and dragon counter so they won't sweep us, we can run a manaphy counter and just double up/triple up (Vaporeon for gyarados and manaphy) Or you know we could just hit it hard (Gengar/Salamence/Inferneape)

 

[scorchedsky]

I'm more intrigued by the idea of RD/Rest/Toxic/Surf...100/100/100 defenses are very good, combined with great defensive typing, and it seems like Manaphy could put most other bulky waters out of a job, and it'd be completely self-sufficient. Rain Dance teams would love Manaphy, and he could then even run non-RD sets.

Also, resisting Bullet Punch and outspeeding Scizor is always very handy...

 

[ultimifier]

what is vaporeon going to do to manaphy if it tail glows up and then uses life orb energy ball... assuming a 252HP and 4 spc defense, manaphy manages 432-509 damage, with vaporeon sitting at 464HP max. thats a OHKO with SR down. So the best gyarados counter AND manaphy counter are dead now.

also, none of those pokemon can OHKO manaphy if it invests at all in HP, meaning that you lose a minimum of 1 pokemon to manaphy as manaphy can OHKO all of those after a tail glow

 

[Scimjara]

Use your head manaphy with rain dance is just a pain in the a$$.
But mew also has 100 base stat each and hes uber because he can learn every move in the game. A smeargle copy but with better stats.
Thus they remain uber. Even the Lat@s are a better idea to be OU with souldew

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm wanting to test Manaphy, I might just do it on PBR. The big thing with Manaphy is it's Ability, but to use or ensure it safety it has to have 2 Move Slot, that brings the obvious solution give it rain Support before it's on the field, but that leaves it counterable by our good old Tyranitar, those running Rain Dance get walled vaporeon completly I personally don't think it's too good for OU, can't wait till testing.

I still think Hydration is secondary to the fact that we're talking about a pure water type with 100 base stats across the board. Even if all it had in its movepool outside of that was surf/ice beam/rest/sleep talk that would already put it on suicune's level. All the other stuff it has pushes it way beyond.

 

[Bourbon]

I think you should know that Manaphy has a 35% chance to 2HKO a 252/0 Celebi with +2 LO Surf, without the rain, provided Celebi comes in on Stealth Rock. Manaphy is quite light, so Celebi cannot OHKO with Grass Knot either.

So I am thinking Manaphy will run Surf and Energy Ball personally.

 

[HECTORtu]

Well, nobody will really take what I'm about to take seriously, but I'll go ahead and express my opinion. About approximately 5 months ago, Manaphy was tested for OU in the Marriland Forums (told you you were not going to take my seriously), and I had the honor in participating in many battles against the little annoying creature. The experience of being able to use Manaphy in OU, was great for me, devastating for my opponnet.

I used a set that may not be that common, but it certainly did what I wanted it to do the most, attract Blissey and sweep. The set I'm talking about, is the SubTailGlow set, along with Surf and IceBeam/ Energy Ball. With the ability to make 101 subs, and being able to get +2 after just one sub, seems pretty devastating for anybody, not to mention its not an frail subber. A Manaphy with 3 Tail Glows and approximately 50% health, a sub, and EVs for bulkiness, is just killer.

Not many things can counter this thing reliably. I once tried the RDRest set with some EVs for bulkiness as well, and its just devastating when used at the right time, whether there was rain or not. In those times where Manaphy was tested, I used a Calm Blissey with Tbolt, since it reliably counters it, but personally, I find it a bit devastating for the OU metagame, of course nobody has to believe me until its tested.

 

[Kalec]

I honestly cannot think of any poke that is not devastating with a sub and +6 to an offensive stat.

 

[1059860]

I honestly cannot think of any poke that is not devastating with a sub and +6 to an offensive stat.

If the Pokemon only has one move and the opponent has immunity to it.

 

[HECTORtu]

Actually it has 2 moves with the set I mentioned, which is SubTailGlow, most likely to carry Surf and Energy Ball.

 

[1059860]

A fast hazer I guess.

 

[DT]

If it was banned for Hydro Rest, which I dont know, wasnt around Smogon back then, then wouldn't it be just as acceptable to ban Phione from UU, as it's stats reflect those of Manaphy in an UU:OU ratio(Ninetails:Infernape), Tail Glow obviously is the big thing, but think about Nasty Plot Azelf/Infernape can both cause alot more devistation, then the little fellow Manaphy, I'm just wanting to test again in the OU enviorment with 100 Base Speed, I''m not to scared of the Hydro Rest combo.

 

[Darkerkrai]

If it was banned for Hydro Rest, which I dont know, wasnt around Smogon back then, then wouldn't it be just as acceptable to ban Phione from UU, as it's stats reflect those of Manaphy in an UU:OU ratio(Ninetails:Infernape).

Phione gets Tail Glow, Heart Swap, Calm Mind, actual support options and respectable defenses and offenses greater than Dewgong? Who knew?

A fast hazer I guess.

Crobat? That bulky bat should be able to outstall an Ice Beam, Life Orb-less Manaphy with Roost, but, that's just me.

 

[maddog]

I don't know what everybody thinks, but there is one thing I'll make clear: Manaphy was banned for its Tail Glow set (Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot), not Hydrorest. Take this as you will.

^ This

I know alot of people in this thread have had no experience with Manaphy in OU, but I was around back then, so I'll tell some things I know about Manaphy, and how many of your 'statements' about Manaphy range from being dumb to being completely and totally wrong. After all, I don't know how you guys could argue for bringing Manaphy back in OU when many of you don't even know why it was banned in the first place.

Manaphy was the most threatening sweeper in the metagame. The reason it was banned was because it was WAY too centralizing. Back in the day, do you know how many Manaphy counters there were? Three. Calm Mind Blissey, CM Raikou, and an extremely bulky Ludicolo. Granted, there are more things that can switch into Manaphy, such as Empoleon amd Abomasnow. But can anybody tell me what's wrong with this list? All of these Pokemon are BL, aside from Blissey (but who runs CM anymore?). So the people that were talking about overcentralization, Manaphy did really cause this to a great degree.

What would Manaphy be like in OU? I'll go ahead and use the example of Timid LO Suicune. This thing is a real pain to counter, and even impossible to do at some times. Think of Manaphy as a faster and harder hitting Suicune. In order to beat the Tail Glow set listed above, you often would have to give up multiple Pokemon, and watch your Blissey get set up on. The overkill with Manaphy is not the rain (that is just a bonus); it is it's extremely good defenses. It isn't weak to any pritory moves either like Garchomp was. Has anybody tried taking down a Jirachi or Celebi, but using netural moves? CB Heracross *barely* manages a 2HKO on Jirachi. Taking down Manaphy is like trying to take down a Bulky Gyarados using only physical moves. Everybody uses Heatran and such as a check against Celebi and Jirachi. But, the challenge is, try finding a Heatran equivalent to beat Manaphy. It's pretty hard. Most of the things that manage enough power to take down this little pixie are slower, and will get destoryed by a Tail Glowed Surf. Water is one of the greatest attacking types in the game, and Manaphy manages to gain almost perfect coverage while using its great STAB move.

So for those trying to say "Manaphy is OU!", some of you really need to rethink your points. It isn't easily walled, it isn't easily killed either. Beating Manaphy usually meant getting two of your guys killed (Garchomp anyone?). What was Manaphy? Manaphy was one of the most powerful mid game sweepers in OU, and its goal was to weaken your team to get owned by something else, and it did a damn good job.

Manaphy might need to be tested at some point. Perhaps the metagame has shifted to a point that it might not be as broken. Let's see.

 

[1059860]

Phione gets Tail Glow, Heart Swap, Calm Mind, actual support options and respectable defenses and offenses greater than Dewgong? Who knew?



Crobat? That bulky bat should be able to outstall an Ice Beam, Life Orb-less Manaphy with Roost, but, that's just me.

Tentacruel can learn haze, and it resists Ice Beam, Surf and is neutral to Grass. High Special Defense AND decent HP with tied speed.