Discussion Thread -- MANAPHY

[1059860]

MANAPHY

This is an interesting Pokemon, being the only Pokemon having a baby form that can't evolve, although that's not really significant... But anyways, let's get to the point, shall we?

Base Stats: 100 HP/100 ATK/100 DEF/100 SPA/100 SPD/100 SPE
Ability: Hydration (Status heal in rain.)

Now, its stats are exactly the same as Jirachi and Celebi in OU, with the BST same as Heatran, Cresselia, Metagross, Dragonite, Salamence, Tyranitar, and Shaymin, which are all currently in OU. What make everyone consider this little guy to be broken is its RainRest set, but without Kyogre supporting the eternal long rain, would this still be broken?

- Rain Dance
- Rest
- Tail Glow
- Surf

STAB Surf in Rain after a Tail Glow can certainly be deadly, and be able to rest/heal ability in rain immediately is also such an advantage, but to an extend, now, this thing only has one move. Pokemon such as Quagsire, Vaporeon, Lapras and Poliwrath all have Water Absorb, which shuts this thing down immediately, but then of course, may be considered as an overcentralization of this game. However, Tyranitars and Hippowdons are among the most frequently used Pokemon in October, especially Tyranitar, making to the Top 10 list easily. An auto Sandstorm that lasts as long as until another weather move is used or Abomasnow is sent out (which still does not help Manaphy in any way, unless it has Blizzard, which helps accuracy only), the weather will stay.

Without the rainy weather, its ability is useless, and it doesn't make Manaphy special anymore, apart from Tail Glow and Heart Swap, which I've never seen used. Tail Glow works just like Nasty Plot, which many OUs have, such as Infernape, Togekiss and Azelf. Should it be that much of a concern?

If the RainRest set is missing Tail Glow, but instead, has HP Elec/Energy Ball/Grass Knot OR Ice Beam, the movepool is still limited. All after all, Blissey comes in very handily all the time, and the new Rotom forms, especially Rotom-C, can propose a threat as well as set up a Light Screen.

Dewgong also shares the very same ability... It's on the NU end of UU, since there IS no eternal rain.

There are actually quite a number of threats in OU, such as Zapdos, TrickRotom, TrickGross, or any Trickers literally... Shaymin-S, Blissey, and semi-bulky things with Taunt.

If Heatran, at more than 100K usage in October, and the close-behind followers Scizor (with Bullet Punch) and OutrageMence are not sooo broken, I can hardly call this broken, but that's just my opinion.

By the way, I play Uber quite often, and to be honest, I haven't seen a single Manaphy yet... It's all Kyogre/Palkia doing the waterworks, and for tanking--Giratina the Great Wall of Pokemania.

At last but not least, Skill Swap can make YOU benefit from RainRest; Gastro Acid ruins its Hydration, and Worry Seed, not only it can't RainRest... It can't Rest at all!

Due to the interest of balanced perspectives, here are also a list of things that should be considered:

1) Will this increase the number of Rain Dance teams?
2) Will this increase the number of Abomasnow/Tyranitar/Hippowdon to cancel out the rain?
3) Will this increase the number of Lapras or Vaporeon?

And finally, a few moves that are significant to this Pokemon:
- Acid Armor
- Aqua Ring
- Energy Ball / Grass Knot
- Heart Swap (SIGNATURE MOVE)
- Hidden Power
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
- Rest
- Surf
- Toxic
- U-Turn

Congratulations... You are reading this message, that means you have read the entire post. Kudos. Now, PLEASE KEEP ON TOPIC!!! Please don't discuss about how your mother's butterfly turned into Chewbacca. We're not interested in that. Thanks :nerd:.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Um, not to bash your thread, but Manaphy testing won't commence until after the Lati@s and Evasion Clause and have been tested. This probably won't be for another couple of months, so why do we need a discussion thread on it so soon?

LR.

 

[1059860]

It's for discussion, not for testing... It's for what people think of it right now.

 

[MetaNite]

There's no freakin' way Mew is ever going to be OU with that moveset, so Manaphy testing will probably come right after Lati@s.

I'm not saying Manaphy is Uber, but it does have access to Grass moves being a water type, and unlike Azelf and Infernape is actually bulky. Togekiss is too however, but is rather slow and hampered by SR.

In addition, you've got the ability to heal yourself completely with no downside. The only problem then is your team mates should support you with Rain or you must be completely devoted to keeping yourself alive.

On the other hand, its movepool is still pretty shallow. And it's SpA is nothing to right home about. Personally, I think its OU. I've rarely ever seen it in Ubers also.

 

[Legacy Raider]

MetaNite, I didn't say that Manaphy won't be tested soon because I thought so, but because I know:

Policy Review - Order of Operations

 

[Brawley]

Manaphy is a pretty good dragon counter with ice beam, and can hit pretty hard, I would use it with a rain dance u-turn jirachi though. It looks like a pretty solid OU.

 

[MetaNite]

MetaNite, I didn't say that Manaphy won't be tested soon because I thought so, but because I know:

Policy Review - Order of Operations

I know what your saying, but I'm pretty sure that with all the new Platinum moves and stuff Mew is getting it's going to be removed from that list like Darkrai was (or will be, I mean come on, its got Nasty Plot!).

 

[Colloquy]

I don't know too much about Manaphy, but I do know that it only works in Ubers with Kyorge's Rain Dance Support, otherwise it is just simply absent. Without the constant rain, Manaphy is a lot easier to handle if it is setting up its own Rain Dance, so it can't just Hydration Rest all the time.

But, Manaphy would work really well with RD U-turn Jirachi as stated earlier. That being said, Manaphy can't do anything to Blissey or Cress, so it could be handled a lot easier than the L@tis.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Keep in mind that as I'm writing this from the perspective of someone who sees Vaporeon as THE #1 most threatening pokemon and Suicune as #2. People seriously do not understand how far bulky waters shape the game and keep offensive teams in line. In the advent of mix-attacking wall breakers like infernape and salamence as well as guess-the-set pokes like Luke and water-based dragon dancers like Kingdra and Gyarados, it's not SkarmBliss that stops offensive pokes from running amuk-- it's the combined front of vaporeon, suicune, swamert, starmie and tentacruel.

Bulky waters are near-integral to the balance of the metagame, but are also a pokemon group that goes largely unchecked. While they are not walls that last the whole game, they are tanks that are bound to have a huge impact on the shape of the early game before they go down. If you play an offensive team in DP, your #1 priority in early game is: kill the bulky water, even if it costs you 1-2 members of your team.

Water has 2 weaknesses that are very hard to abuse. Grass is one of the less used attacking types, and grass pokemon have to fear ice beam. Electric is terrible as a main STAB as it is immuned by the ever-present ground (and swampy lols). The top electric types of the game rarely go to all-out-sweeper sets (zappy and rotom are usually tankish). Both electric and grass are popular as secondary attacks on pokemon without STAB, but without stab bulky waters have a decent time shrugging it off.

Water also has amazing nuetral coverage, resisted only by dragon, grass and water. Of course water v. water just means more water types around (and leads to headaches near that of blissey v. cresselia) and both dragon and grass are weak to ice (which of course every water type can pack, thanks GF). Throw in a grass/electric attack and you have perfect coverage, though many water types have success just by spamming their stab alone. Sleep Talk Gyara or Suicune with Waterfall as their only attack are surprisingly powerful for example.

Pure Water is one of the most powerful and offensively/defensively balanced types a pokemon can have.

With that in mind, Manaphy could be the water type to end all water types. 100 in every base stat is very good, and compliments water types balanced nature.

It's 1 tier weaker than suicune in both defenses. You guys all know how bulky celebi and jirachi are (and they have much more easily abused weaknesses). As a quick comparison, this means it is 3 tiers above Vappy on defense and 1 tier below on special defense (3 tiers is the difference between Empoleon and Aerodactyle btw). It's also roughly the same tier (on both sides) as Tentacruel's Special Defense. Goes without saying that it is a notch tougher than swampert on either front.

100 speed tier is nothing to scoff at either. The ability to go on the offensive on either side of the spectrum with decent power is also troubling.

Even before looking at its traits or any of its moves, its clear that we are looking at a definite top tier pokemon. For the most part though, I'd say that

swampy has SR!
Vappy has Wish!
Tentacruel has Spin, Knock Off and Toxic Spikes!

I'm not going to lie that lacking a truly intimidating set up move is definitely one of its weak points, as well as any really reliable recovery. However that never stopped sleep-talk suicune. Imagine a slightly less bulky suicune with Hydro-Rest and Nasty Plot. That's Manaphy.

It's not like it's totally screwed on the support-move side either. Double Screen Manaphy anyone? :P

 

[ViVi]

Manaphy would be Ubers in Doubles. Just saying

For standard, a extremely Bulky Jirachi with Rain Dance+U-Turn would set it up nicely, but that still requires setup. Plus you have to Tail Glow once or twice to really be effective which leaves you only 2 attacking moves..

 

[Colloquy]

Actually, if you set up your own Rain Dance, you only have one attacking move, unless you want to drop Tail Glow, which is totally not cool.

I'm seeing Manaphy being easily walled.

 

[Tleilax]

Having only Surf wouldn't be as weak as people seem to think. A Tail Glow Surf with Rain support would do a lot of damage even to those that resist. With HydroRest it could freely pack Life Orb to add more punch to the boosted Surfs. Really, the only things that would want to take that are other Water types.

It doesn't even have to set up rain itself. If something with a Damp Rock sets up rain, it can use Rest without Rain Dance to set up a few Tail Glows and then sweep. This would free up a slot for Grass Knot or Energy Ball, making Water types unable to wall it.

Who says it has to be offensive with HydroRest and Tail Glow anyway? A set with Rain Dance, Rest, Toxic, and Surf with a Damp Rock would be a pain in the butt to get around. It has the same bulk as Jirachi and Celebi without all the weaknesses.

I don't know how this thing would pan out in OU. HydroRest with those stats could be brutal.

 

[petrie911]

Abomasnow can actually be a good switch-in to this guy. Snow Warning nulls any rain it's set up, and he resists Surf, is neutral to Ice Beam, and takes laughable damage from Grass Knot. 90HP/85sD isn't too bad of bases for taking special hits. Abomasnow also threatens Manaphy with Leech Seed, Wood Hammer, and even Energy Ball or Seed Bomb. Come in on a predicted Rest and you're guaranteed to force it out.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I am looking forward to Manaphy testing since I really haven't played against or with it before.

Ttar and the Hippo would not be very good choices to switch in on it. One Tail Glow and a Surf and they are gone.

I would also suggest adding Shadow Ball to the list of possible moves to use as Rotoms would get demolished by Manaphy.

With all of the weather out there I don't think this will be even as imposing of a threat as Skymin, but that is just my guess on theorymon.

I would bet that most teams that work using this would probably have two attacking moves on it, otherwise why not use Suicune that can be more annoying with its ability? Perhaps trap passing with Umbreon and setup would allow Manaphy some play.

Zapdos has to be careful playing against this as I'm pretty sure Manaphy could be EVed to take down Zappy after it switches in on Stealth Rock.

 

[1234gjy]

The set won't work well in OU. Because bulky waters are on every single freaking team. I mean look at the RMT, at 50% of the teams has vappy!! Vappy is like the dominant bulky water. It'll stop manaphy dead, and isn't vulerable to grass knot too much. Suicune cannot do as well, because it can CM and manaphy can steal them. So i don't think manaphy'll do any better than it does in uber.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

discuss about how your mother's butterfly turned into Chewbacca. We're not interested in that.

I would certainly be interested in that. I don't think it would belong in stark though.

 

[mien]

Manaphy really seems like an intresting pokemon all right

Don't know why it was banned in the first place. I only hear people whisper something from beginning DP when people thought Rhyperior was Uber.

 

[ViVi]

IMO Manaphy deserves testing ahead of everything else, Lati bros aside perhaps. Its certainly more likely to be able to insert itself into the Standard Metagame with less of a stir then evasion clause would.

 

[Kietharr]

I don't know why people are even mentioning that he'd be solid in OU, of course he would, that's why he was made an uber in the first place, he was originally OU.

Rest/hydration was just too annoying to deal with. With a Bronzong or something setting rain up he wreaked unholy havoc with tail glow/rest/surf/ice beam or energy ball. He got basically 5 turns to sit around and set up a tail glow or two before starting a sweep. 100/100/100 base defenses mean you'd never really OHKO. 100 base speed means he's on par or better than the great majority of OU. Manaphy would rarely 6-0 a team but he was like Garchomp in that if you played him right he'd always score at least one or two.

Even the crocune-like rest/rain dance/tail glow/surf with EVs in defenses was a HUGE threat, if you don't have a water absorber or a Ludicolo you pretty much lose to that set.

This thing was made uber before Garchomp, nuff said.

 

[Jonathan]

To the OP:

1. Saying that Manaphy sucks in Ubers is a moot point. How it plays in Ubers has no effect on whether it should be allowed in OU or not.

2. Half your post seems to be filled with statements like "Dewgong has Hydration" or "Togekiss has NP and has more SAtk!" Do I even need to explain the fallacy with such statements? You have to consider Manaphy as the sum of its parts, not analyze each part separately. By your logic you could make any Pokemon pass for OU.

3. To me at least, the set you first posted makes it clear that Manaphy should be Uber. With max Speed and Special Attack and Timid it would be a monster. It has plenty of opportunities to set up, and once it has a NP or two under its belt, pretty much the only ways of dealing with it are Vaporeon, Ludicolo, or a revenge killing Skymin. The synergy that the set gives you: Rain Dance boosting Surf, healing you of statuses, combining with Rest to give you 100% Recovery, not to mention the combination of NP, Surf, and potentially Life Orb... you get something incredibly sturdy, fast, and powerful enough to even OHKO a max HP/SDef Calm Blissey.

 

[Taylor]

I've had little experience with Manaphy in OU. I cannot remember which tournament permitted Manaphy use, but I distinctly recall experiencing tournament matches with it; to my recollection, both Latios and Latias were also allowed in this particular event.

I was intrigued with the following combination's potential: Rest + Hydration. To take advantage of Rest with Hydration was certainly appealing. Considering how Rain Dance took up a vital move slot, I began to build a Rain Dance team to compliment Manaphy's strengths, whilst allowing Manaphy to take advantage of the rain without having to set it up itself.

I found it difficult to keep the offensively-built Manaphy, whilst trying to abuse Rest at the same time. Both Tail Glow and Rest work fantastically against opposition which pose little threat offensively; however, when the opposition were hard-hitting menaces, Rest became unfunctionally capable because you were suffering a 2HKO, hence why Rest often became useless. If the oppposition constantly applied pressure on my team, I found it fairly difficult to execute Rain Dance and focus on a Manaphy sweep.

But I am eagerly awaiting another chance with Manaphy.

 

[Syberia]

I didn't play D/P when Manaphy was allowed, so I'm quite eager to test it.

 

[Veedrock]

On the other hand, its movepool is still pretty shallow. And it's SpA is nothing to right home about. Personally, I think its OU. I've rarely ever seen it in Ubers also.

It's usage in Uber has absolutely NO impact on it's tier placement. It's SpA can be boosted via Tail Glow, and 100 SpA isn't bad. It's right along Jirachi that can sweep after two CM's (which equals 1 TG).

I'm actually afraid of Manaphy. Of course I'd be running one if it's legal, but facing one is a whole new issue. It's a beast in the rain. But here's something for you; if Garchomp overcentralized the metagame, there is no way in fucking hell (excuse the profanity please) that Manaphy won't. I give it 3 days of testing before the result is clear that it overcentralizes (if not breaks) the metagame.

My biggest fear (primarily) is how much harder this will make the Smogon Frontier. With a Brain already discussing how he'd use it (and how everyone would use it pretty much), that should strike fear into any hopeful as they'd need a surefire Manaphy counter (using the term counter loosely).

 

[Darkerkrai]

I'm eagar to test this as well. With Rain Dance teams, Special Sponges like Blissey and Cresselia won't like Tail Glow and Rain Dance boosted Surfs, however, Rest is just as Taylor said, useless as Manaphy won't like being up against offensive teams who can easily 2HKO it much. Then, you have Shaymin-S who if Life Orb'd can OHKO with Seed Flare. Finally, the increasing amount of Sandstorm teams also hamper Manaphy's ability to sweep... oh wait... Tail Glow boosted Surfs from a base 100 Speed can mess up Sandstorm teams <_<.

However, keep it noted that being a pure Water type gives Manaphy a good chance of surviving certain attacks on it. Then you have the fact that it and Vaporeon are the only bulky Waters who are too light for Grass Knot to do any damage, making Manaphy an easier way to counter Infernape.

Heart Swap swaps stat boosts and status meaning that Manaphy might just not need Rest since it could easily take a status move inflicted upon it and easily transfer it to something that won't like that status (i.e Blissey uses Toxic, Manaphy switches out, opponent switches Cresselia in, Manaphy switches back in and gives Cresselia that Poison). But then again, that's one moveslot out of 4 meaning that Manaphy has only 3 other moves to choose from. It could actually make a good support for a team with its movepool.

I also see Sunny Day teams gaining SOME popularity as they will cause Rain Dance teams absuing the Water type move boost and Thunder's 100% accuracy to squirm a bit.

 

[RaikouLover]

My opinion on manaphy is that Shaymin-S counters this hard. And the set you posted isn't even the best one IMO...

Manaphy @ Life Orb
Tail Glow
Surf
Ice Beam
Grass Knot

Any takers?

Or we go Empoleon style:
Manaphy @ Salac Berry
Tail Glow
Substitute
Surf
Ice Beam / Grass Knot

This will beat Blissey...

But in all honesty, I don't even what to THINK about Manaphy until we get a feel for Lati@ and the final decision on Shaymin-S