Unpopular opinions

[QuentinQuonce]

Has anyone ever actually explored the options after ecruteak? From what i've seen, people just go to chuck and then jasmine, very few actually fight pryce first, mainly because of the amount of backtracking you'd need to do. Its just a hassle and kinds undermines the "openness" of it. I hate kanto games but at least theres good reason to go different routes (though skipping lt surge is a pointless feature if you arent doing some wingull only challenge. Hes right there bro just get over with it.)

Removing it and giving the gyms an actual exp curve would have been so much better

I've played the games multiple times and done Chuck-Jasmine-Pryce in every possible order. Frankly, doing Chuck and Pryce before Jasmine is most satisfying because she's so much higher in level. Mahogany Gym is blocked until you clear the Rocket HQ so they could easily have kept it that way. It's weird. And given that the remakes added roadblocks to the Violet and Goldenrod Gyms, it's even weirder.

Another quirk is that Crystal allows you to access Blackthorn before you clear the Radio Tower, but Gold, Silver, HeartGold, and SoulSilver don't.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Has anyone ever actually explored the options after ecruteak? From what i've seen, people just go to chuck and then jasmine, very few actually fight pryce first, mainly because of the amount of backtracking you'd need to do. Its just a hassle and kinds undermines the "openness" of it. I hate kanto games but at least theres good reason to go different routes (though skipping lt surge is a pointless feature if you arent doing some wingull only challenge. Hes right there bro just get over with it.)

Removing it and giving the gyms an actual exp curve would have been so much better

It's a way to access a ton of different mons earlier, more prominently, the Red Gyarados.

Early Hidden Power too, which for a lot of mons in GSC means their best STAB option.

There's definitely incentives for it, but the biggest problem is that Johto is too cramped to be trying to pull this kind of thing off.

 

[Nokocchi]

Early Hidden Power too, which for a lot of mons in GSC means their best STAB option.

No-one's going to spend time getting the perfect hidden power for a Gen II in-game team(Since on top of type, in Gen II-V the power also varied)

Both the Crystal Battle Tower and all of the modes in Stadium 2 are perfectly beatable without it.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

No-one's going to spend time getting the perfect hidden power for a Gen II in-game team(Since on top of type, in Gen II-V the power also varied)

Not saying that you should probably go for it, but if you catch say, Scyther, you definitely want to at least run the calcs to see if the one you got was good.

You might get lucky after all...

 

[adman2]

Has anyone ever actually explored the options after ecruteak? From what i've seen, people just go to chuck and then jasmine, very few actually fight pryce first, mainly because of the amount of backtracking you'd need to do. Its just a hassle and kinds undermines the "openness" of it. I hate kanto games but at least theres good reason to go different routes (though skipping lt surge is a pointless feature if you arent doing some wingull only challenge. Hes right there bro just get over with it.)

Removing it and giving the gyms an actual exp curve would have been so much better

Challenge playthroughs such as "no Battle Items" solos can benefit from saving Jasmine until last. Especially if you're playing as a Normal/Flying type like Noctowl that has few options for Electric and Steel types other than gaining levels.

 

[didls]

I often see the special/physical split cited as being the best thing to happen to Pokémon, and while it definitely had an overall positive impact, I can't say that I fully agree.

Tagged bc its long

Sure, a lot of Pokémon benefited from it; Sneasel, Absol, Kingler, Gengar, Crawdaunt, etc... were finally able to make full use of their STAB, while others, such as Hitmonchan, were finally able to make use of their coverage options. However, just as many Pokémon were hurt by it as well; Alakazam and Gardevoir lost quite a bit of their good coverage, and Banette and Dusclops (and by extension, Dusknoir) lost their valuable STAB in Shadow Ball.

It was also a big part of the power creep. Not being able to use their STABs effectively is a huge part of what kept some Pokémon in check, namely the dragons. Dragonite, Flygon and Salamence all had to run a mixed set and cut into a large chunk of their EVs to be able to do significant damage with Dragon-type STAB or Fire-type coverage. Hell, Salamence was so good that it could make use of Fire Blast even without SpAtk investment and a SpAtk-reducing nature. So you can imagine how powerful it became when it could spam Dragon Claw or Outrage from its boosted Attack stat.

Spoiler Alert

It was banned to ubers

A lot of defensive Pokémon, such as Blissey and Skarmory, also lost their ability to almost fully wall against entire types, leading to (mostly Blissey's) their downfall in Gen 5.

This part is mostly subjective, but I think pre-split mechanics had far more interesting potential than our current mechanics since Gen 4. STAB wasn't something all Pokémon could make use of, which I think is a part of why it was kept so "secret" in earlier games, only ever mentioned by one or two NPCs. Had they capitalized on the dichotomy created by only some Pokémon having the advantage of STAB, while others had the advantage of higher attacking stats and more coverage, it could have trickled-down and created "classes" of different Pokémon as opposed to GameFreak's current effort to "level the playing field".

Anyways, that's my delusional hot take for the day. I'm just tired of it supposedly being an "objectively best" thing to happen to Pokémon, when it had its pros and cons just like everything else. It's such a major shift in mechanics that its bound to have both positive and negative affects and I'm surprised it isn't more common for fans to have a preference for pre-split mechanics.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I often see the special/physical split cited as being the best thing to happen to Pokémon, and while it definitely had an overall positive impact, I can't say that I fully agree.

Tagged bc its long

Sure, a lot of Pokémon benefited from it; Sneasel, Absol, Kingler, Gengar, Crawdaunt, etc... were finally able to make full use of their STAB, while others, such as Hitmonchan, were finally able to make use of their coverage options. However, just as many Pokémon were hurt by it as well; Alakazam and Gardevoir lost quite a bit of their good coverage, and Banette and Dusclops (and by extension, Dusknoir) lost their valuable STAB in Shadow Ball.

It was also a big part of the power creep. Not being able to use their STABs effectively is a huge part of what kept some Pokémon in check, namely the dragons. Dragonite, Flygon and Salamence all had to run a mixed set and cut into a large chunk of their EVs to be able to do significant damage with Dragon-type STAB or Fire-type coverage. Hell, Salamence was so good that it could make use of Fire Blast even without SpAtk investment and a SpAtk-reducing nature. So you can imagine how powerful it became when it could spam Dragon Claw or Outrage from its boosted Attack stat.

Spoiler Alert

It was banned to ubers

A lot of defensive Pokémon, such as Blissey and Skarmory, also lost their ability to almost fully wall against entire types, leading to (mostly Blissey's) their downfall in Gen 5.

This part is mostly subjective, but I think pre-split mechanics had far more interesting potential than our current mechanics since Gen 4. STAB wasn't something all Pokémon could make use of, which I think is a part of why it was kept so "secret" in earlier games, only ever mentioned by one or two NPCs. Had they capitalized on the dichotomy created by only some Pokémon having the advantage of STAB, while others had the advantage of higher attacking stats and more coverage, it could have trickled-down and created "classes" of different Pokémon as opposed to GameFreak's current effort to "level the playing field".

Anyways, that's my delusional hot take for the day. I'm just tired of it supposedly being an "objectively best" thing to happen to Pokémon, when it had its pros and cons just like everything else. It's such a major shift in mechanics that its bound to have both positive and negative affects and I'm surprised it isn't more common for fans to have a preference for pre-split mechanics.

I doubt most people are thinking of competitive play when they talk about the physical-special split being unequivocally good. I agree that there are elements of the transition that weren’t handled super well and certain Pokémon benefited/suffered disproportionately as a result, but the biggest reason the split is so popular is that most people think it makes a lot more intuitive sense in casual play, especially with examples like the elemental punches and Shadow Ball. You cite Alakazam as an example of a Pokémon that lost valuable coverage, but it arguably gained as much as it lost and it was always a bit ridiculous in Gen 3 to read Pokédex entries about how weak its muscles are, only to discover that 3 of its most useful attacks are punching moves.

I think this topic has come up before and my response at the time was that almost all the problems with the split are really problems with increasingly bloated movepools. The philosophy now seems to be that certain Pokémon are owed certain moves if they have some arbitrary set of characteristics.

Tbh we contribute to this kind of thinking in the Movepool Oddities and Explanations thread, where it’s common to see a ‘could?—>should!’ approach to move compatibility (e.g. “[Pokémon] should be able to learn every punching attack because it can form a fist”). Ironically, I think Pokémon would have much more diverse strategies and move selections if each species had less coverage, especially if we did away with ‘universal’ moves for Pokémon with a given type or physical attribute.

A related issue I have with movepools is that the unique traits of certain Pokémon often get erased by the standard STAB options for its type(s). It just doesn’t make sense to me when, say, a slender, agile Normal-type Pokémon has Body Slam as its best reliable STAB option, or when a Pokémon like Mawile or Skarmory has Iron Head as its best Steel attack. The most interesting elements of Pokémon’s designs become detached from their in-battle performance when every Pokémon’s forced to choose from the same pool of generic ‘good’ moves.

 

[didls]

I doubt most people are thinking of competitive play when they talk about the physical-special split being unequivocally good. I agree that there are elements of the transition that weren’t handled super well and certain Pokémon benefited/suffered disproportionately as a result, but the biggest reason the split is so popular is that most people think it makes a lot more intuitive sense in casual play, especially with examples like the elemental punches and Shadow Ball. You cite Alakazam as an example of a Pokémon that lost valuable coverage, but it arguably gained as much as it lost and it was always a bit ridiculous in Gen 3 to read Pokédex entries about how weak its muscles are, only to discover that 3 of its most useful attacks are punching moves.

I think this topic has come up before and my response at the time was that almost all the problems with the split are really problems with increasingly bloated movepools. The philosophy now seems to be that certain Pokémon are owed certain moves if they have some arbitrary set of characteristics.

Tbh we contribute to this kind of thinking in the Movepool Oddities and Explanations thread, where it’s common to see a ‘could?—>should!’ approach to move compatibility (e.g. “[Pokémon] should be able to learn every punching attack because it can form a fist”). Ironically, I think Pokémon would have much more diverse strategies and move selections if each species had less coverage, especially if we did away with ‘universal’ moves for Pokémon with a given type or physical attribute.

A related issue I have with movepools is that the unique traits of certain Pokémon often get erased by the standard STAB options for its type(s). It just doesn’t make sense to me when, say, a slender, agile Normal-type Pokémon has Body Slam as its best reliable STAB option, or when a Pokémon like Mawile or Skarmory has Iron Head as its best Steel attack. The most interesting elements of Pokémon’s designs become detached from their in-battle performance when every Pokémon’s forced to choose from the same pool of generic ‘good’ moves.

I think it's important to not take the word "punch" too literally here. If I remember correctly, in Stadium, a Pokémon using one of those moves simply swings their arms and "throws" energy at the opponent. "Punch" simply refers to the throwing action in this scenario. This is definitely a representation of them being special moves, since it was changed in Battle Revolution to be a literal punch.

I totally agree with the movepools, though. I recently looked at Golem's Gen 6 learnset, and it's insane. Level-up movepools are just bloated with a bunch of useless filler moves that have accumulated each gen, and factoring in the moves that can be learned via events, breeding, tutoring, TM... I would definitely get behind restricting movepools more.

 

[earl]

I think this topic has come up before and my response at the time was that almost all the problems with the split are really problems with increasingly bloated movepools. The philosophy now seems to be that certain Pokémon are owed certain moves if they have some arbitrary set of characteristics.

Idk man have you seen the tundra movepools

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I think it's important to not take the word "punch" too literally here. If I remember correctly, in Stadium, a Pokémon using one of those moves simply swings their arms and "throws" energy at the opponent. "Punch" simply refers to the throwing action in this scenario. This is definitely a representation of them being special moves, since it was changed in Battle Revolution to be a literal punch.

I’d like to get on board with this idea, but punching in stadium tends to look like ‘thrown energy’ even when it’s a physical attack (e.g. Mega Punch). The move descriptions in the Stadium games did a better job of informing the player that they were special attacks for gameplay purposes, but they don’t really explain what using the move actually entails. Conversely, the Gen 2 and 3 descriptions and animations suggest that they were imagined as punches that made contact even when they were special attacks.

Idk man have you seen the tundra movepools

If you’re talking about stuff like Regieleki then heck yeah I’ve seen it and I’m into it. When Pokémon’s movepools seem barren now it’s usually just because there’s been so much power creep that anything short of perfect offensive coverage tends to leave new legendaries immediately outclassed unless they have absurd stats/abilities.

 

[earl]

If you’re talking about stuff like Regieleki then heck yeah I’ve seen it and I’m into it. When Pokémon’s movepools seem barren now it’s usually just because there’s been so much power creep that anything short of perfect offensive coverage tends to leave new legendaries immediately outclassed unless they have absurd stats/abilities.

I don’t think perfect coverage is really a power creep trend- ever since gen 1 many of the best pokemon have had absurd coverage (starmie tauros snorlax etc) and it’s always been a recipe for success, and it’s not like EQ hasn’t been handed out like candy since the dawn of time. Gen 4 is obviously an outlier for enabling new threats with the split and Gen 8 did make Close Combat EQ 2 but I don’t think perfect/absurd coverage is really all that more common than it was in the past. If anything Gen 8 revealed how lackluster a lot of older movepools were with the Hidden Power removal, and a fair amount of new mons this gen have somewhat awkward coverage, like in the case of Dragapult where the lower offensive stat has the coverage, or Frosmoth where it’s just ass

 

[Sonikku A]

The fact Treeko line didn't have it's Sp Atk swapped with it's Atk stat after 4, EVEN FOR THE MEGA is garbage

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

A related issue I have with movepools is that the unique traits of certain Pokémon often get erased by the standard STAB options for its type(s). It just doesn’t make sense to me when, say, a slender, agile Normal-type Pokémon has Body Slam as its best reliable STAB option, or when a Pokémon like Mawile or Skarmory has Iron Head as its best Steel attack. The most interesting elements of Pokémon’s designs become detached from their in-battle performance when every Pokémon’s forced to choose from the same pool of generic ‘good’ moves.

That is a problem related with the lack of good, reliable STAB moves in this game for many types.

Sure, Gen 4 made a giant leap from "You're Grass, Steel, Bug or Flying? Enjoy Hidden Power."

A lot of types just don't have solid 90BP, 100% Acc. moves. And the ones that do, often only have one of those.

Sure, it works for say, Thunderbolt for special-based Electrics, but Play Rough? For Zamazenta and G-Rapidash?

That makes absolutely no sense. But would you look at that. Spirit Break is a sig move.

I totally agree with the movepools, though. I recently looked at Golem's Gen 6 learnset, and it's insane. Level-up movepools are just bloated with a bunch of useless filler moves that have accumulated each gen

There could be some trimming. (Rock Throw and Smack Down shouldn't be learned one after the other with a 2 lv. gap.)

On the other hand, you gotta consider In-Game. Going back to GSC-style movepools favor nobody.

 

[Bakugames]

I think a balance can be done. The way CAP creates movepools is very interessing, as they have a phase for competitive moves pickings (stab, good utility, coverage etc) and then a phase of flavor moves and their level ups/tms/tutors etc. Sure, its made with competitive in mind, but still fits for a casual use as most caps have perfectly usable and understandable movesets for in game use.

Back on topic, or at least i think this is unpopular haha.
I see a lot of people saying how legendaries stopped being special when they started to be really connected to the plot or something, but being quite honest, I never saw anything special about legendaries. Maybe because I never played pokemon as a child (started when i was 17-18), but I think its the fact you're able to catch them. I think I talked about this somewhere in some thread? So I'm not gonna dwelve into it that much unless asked. Basically I won't take the god of pokemon serious if i can put it on the same device I use to catch a purple rat.

Doesn't help that so many of them just... exist. I prefer when legendaries are part of plots or b plots because I at least get to make a connection to them. There's nothing making me care about the kantonian birds, or heatran, or mewtwo, or [insert roamer legendary].
Also this is purely nitpicky and personal but a lot of them are really ugly LOL

 

[didls]

I see a lot of people saying how legendaries stopped being special when they started to be really connected to the plot or something

Honestly, I agree with this point. Ho-Oh and Lugia are my favorite cover legends for this very reason: they're just legendary Pokémon. They don't control the entirety of fucking time and space or death itself. They're just some legendaries with some neat minor lore, which suits Pokémon much better IMO because GameFreak is never dedicated enough to pull off a plot complex enough to have legendaries like Dialga or Palkia (as much as I love them both).

 

[Sonikku A]

This is why I vastly prefer Legendaries in Mystery Dungeon 1/2 (Except Girantina)
They feel like legit bosses with the higher HP before recruit, many actually exhibit their supernatural qualities, and even their size affects how many you can have on one team
Poor Girantina just guards a drum in Sky though.... at least it was great in Plat

 

[p0ip0le]

swsh's gameplay mightve been Wack but its character list was genuinely memorable and the way they were written is Very Good

villains though, ignoring the rainbow rocket episode:

RBY FRLG giovanni: mafia boss generic "take over the world"
GSC HGSS archer: mafia boss stand-in same as above
S E AS archie: misguided with good intentions <=
R E OR maxie: misguided with good intentions <=
DPPT cyrus: wanted to destroy the world
BW B2W2 ghetsis: Literally Irredeemable Fuck You
XY lysandre: wanted to destroy the world('s people)
SM lusamine: misguided with good intentions <=
SM guzma: was manipulated, questionable intent
USUM necrozma: misguided with good intentions <=
SWSH rose: misguided with good intentions <=

it's obviously more complicated than this but when you boil them down half of them have the same objective. it's getting stale

RBY and GSC get a pass because theyre the first two games and not particularly centered around the villain storyline, SWSH tries to be less storyline-focused in favor of character development but it just doesn't work

BW and B2W2 are, as far as i know, the most well-received villain storylines, probably helped by the whole "direct sequel" thing (dppt sequels please!) but there's a few missed opportunities, like detailing ghetsis's backstory or something. still good but i wish we could see more development

 

[khlaylav]

swsh's gameplay mightve been Wack but its character list was genuinely memorable and the way they were written is Very Good

villains though, ignoring the rainbow rocket episode:

RBY FRLG giovanni: mafia boss generic "take over the world"
GSC HGSS archer: mafia boss stand-in same as above
S E AS archie: misguided with good intentions <=
R E OR maxie: misguided with good intentions <=
DPPT cyrus: wanted to destroy the world
BW B2W2 ghetsis: Literally Irredeemable Fuck You
XY lysandre: wanted to destroy the world('s people)
SM lusamine: misguided with good intentions <=
SM guzma: was manipulated, questionable intent
USUM necrozma: misguided with good intentions <=
SWSH rose: misguided with good intentions <=

it's obviously more complicated than this but when you boil them down half of them have the same objective. it's getting stale

RBY and GSC get a pass because theyre the first two games and not particularly centered around the villain storyline, SWSH tries to be less storyline-focused in favor of character development but it just doesn't work

BW and B2W2 are, as far as i know, the most well-received villain storylines, probably helped by the whole "direct sequel" thing (dppt sequels please!) but there's a few missed opportunities, like detailing ghetsis's backstory or something. still good but i wish we could see more development

To be honest I reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaallllly dunno that you call SM lusamine "misguided with good intentions." She's basically an abusive parent who went nuts after her husband was lost and fixated on getting Ultra Beasts. Argument's stronger in USUM but that's sort of an alternate universe type deal.

 

[Merritt]

SM lusamine: misguided with good intentions <=

did we play different games or something

SM Lusamine was under the influence of Nihilego toxins but I don't think anything she did could be called "good intentions". Over the course of the pregame and potentially into the plot proper she began a series of horrific experiments on Pokemon - including the manufacture of Pokemon which literally could not control themselves and had to be cryogenically frozen. Of course she also cryogenically froze parts of her personal collection, was abusive to her children, and helped a gang (which took over and destroyed a town) in unspecified ways. But yeah, if her end goal was nobleish then she'd just be misguided.

Nope, Lusamine's endgame is to screw off to a different dimension and just stay there for the rest of her life. She does this knowing full well that it'd have consequences (the likely death of Nebby, probably opening up holes for things that eat people to come through) and just does not care. At best you could say she doesn't have bad intentions.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

swsh's gameplay mightve been Wack but its character list was genuinely memorable and the way they were written is Very Good

*Glares at Rose.*

Is this a prank?

 

[jordanthejq12]

*Glares at Rose.*

Is this a prank?

This is Unpopular Opinions. In which anything positive about SwSh would qualify.

 

[p0ip0le]

i was gonna put "questionably good intentions" but that felt too long oops

she went off the shits because her husband got yeeted into god knows where through an ultra wormhole, so she obsessively studied UBs until nihilego happened => complete singleminded focus on nihilego warped her outlook on life into Just Nihilego, fuck them kids, who's mohn

she's still a shit person but kinda good intentions if you consider nihilego's toxin bullshit amplifying/shifting it into full obsession from "finding her husband". really wish SM actually told what happened after lillie left + lusamine's fall from ""grace"" but like we're probably not getting that ever

the anime was kinda weird making lusamine Not the antagonist but it fleshed her out more

 

[QuentinQuonce]

GSC HGSS archer: mafia boss stand-in same as above

I actually like GSC/HGSS's Rocket plotline for precisely the opposite reason. It's something no other game really has, which is a villainous team who have been roundly smashed trying to put themselves back together and regain their lost infamy (and failing horribly). Platinum sort of does a similar thing with Charon trying to steal the Magma Stone post-Cyrus and the Galactic Admins' hearts not being in it but I think the intent there is different and it's on a much smaller scale. And yes SM/USUM did a very similar sort of thing with Team Skull but again I think the intent there is different - Team Skull never had glory to regain in the first place.

Like... it's just so hilariously pathetic that all Team Rocket aspire to do in GSC is get Giovanni back. They take over a whole city, broadcast a message across an entire region, and you get the impression that the leadership is sort of going "now what?" Because... they're nothing without him. None of the admins stand out competitively or charismatically. It's plain that there is no-one among them with an ounce of the charisma or decisiveness that Giovanni had, and they are completely lost: there's no actual overarching plan to their schemes beyond "try and get Giovanni back".

It's a different take on the standard evil team formula that stands out to me. Later games increasingly tend to have the main characters be aware of evil teams and consider them a real threat. Here, though, no-one really gives a toss about Team Rocket any more. Even from the NPCs who do talk about them, the line tends to be "they were a pain three years ago. It'd be bad if they came back!", failing to notice that... they are back. They feel like much more of a threat in RBY - they're all over Kanto, and people actually regard them as a threat, whereas in Johto the impression you get is that they're more of an annoyance rather than a genuine security concern until they manage to take over the Radio Tower.

Even in HGSS, which had the chance to change things up a bit, the Rockets are a sideshow to the real story.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Even from the NPCs who do talk about them, the line tends to be "they were a pain three years ago. It'd be bad if they came back!", failing to notice that... they are back.

Now I feel bad for laughing at GSC TR all these years!

 

[Bakugames]

Its so weird how people keep complaining about the "ugh friendly rival" when the last two gens always gave us a little asshole of a rival. Its also weird when the complains are often directed to the 3d games, when I think most rivals we have are neutral or more friendly alligned.

Gen 1 - Green. Pretty barebones character and idk why people care about him but him being champion first is cool, too bad you beat him in 2 minutes. Hes just really easy in general so it was hard to take him serious lol. Mean rival

Gen 2 - Silver. Could have been good if his story had more investiment, but rn hes just green 2.0 but with a tragic backstory. Props on the golbat evolution touch though. Mean rival.

Gen 3 - May/Brendan and Wally - The definition of friendly rivals. Also irrelevant for most of the game. Played this game a lot and I still dont remember their teams.

Gen 4 - Barry. Hes fine? I guess hes a mean rival if you consider him just being impatient and rude, but he feels more like a friendly rival. Doesnt have the vibes that green and silver do. Hes the only fast thing in these games

Gen 5 - Cheren/Bianca; Hugh: Hugh is the closest we get to rude rival, but hes still friendly to you and will gladly help you out with plasma stuff. He has that vibes of best friend whos loves to make mean jokes about you because youre so close. Cheren and Bianca are pretty friendly too, Bianca even more so.

Gen 6 - You dont have rivals, the game itself goes out of its way to say you only have friends. Its probably where people got their distaste of friendly rivals, since they are VERY nice to you. Not the best rivals, kinda as forgettable as gen 3.

Gen 7 - Hau/Gladion - The start of nice rival + mean rival system. Gladion is just silver but better because the story actually gives us an idea of what he went thru. Hes not edgy just for the sake of needing an edgy rival. I also like his french fry hair. Hau is a good rival leave him alone.

Gen 8 - Hop/Marnie/Bede - The same system as gen 7, but with a neutral/friendly-ish rival in the middle. While bedes story isnt given as much time as gladions, hes still a very interessing character. The fact he comes back but still has some of the edge is pretty good.
Hop is really the best friendly rival we have. We get to see his insecurity and he even has a change of heart on his career, eveb if he still likes battling. Marnie is sadly underdeveloped and could have been cut for the game, but i also love my goth daughter so.