XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Honchkrow, probably one of the most threatening sweepers this meta, and definitely deserving of A+ rank. It's honestly one of my favorite Pokemon to use this meta because you jerks banned Diggersby and Crawdaunt so I don't have as many broken threats to swing around because its wallbreaking prowess is just incredible. You're looking at a mon who is capable of being able to 2HKO a good number of the tier's physical walls after either Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes, examples being Swampert (clean 2HKO no hazard), Slowbro, Donphan, Forretress (not a guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes, but very high. This guy's also easy af to wear down), and Suicune. Not only is it able to 2HKO most of them readily with Brave Bird, but sacking something to it is often going to be incredibly costly to the opponent immediately afterward. In fact, it's so vicious that most of the time unless you're packing phys. def Mega Ampharos (actually a pretty slept-on threat), most teams are going to have to rely on checking Honchkrow offensively, usually by some faster offensive Poke who can survive a +1 Sucker Punch, such as Cobalion, Mega Houndoom, Mega Manectric, Hydreigon, etc.

Honestly, I feel the biggest downfalls to Honchkrow are its Stealth Rock weakness, awkwardly low Speed that allow even a good few defensive mons to speed creep it and subsequently cripple it (Defensive Mew with WoW, Flame Orb + Trick/WoW Rotom, for instance) and the insane recoil Honchkrow deals to itself between Life Orb and Brave Bird. To some extent this can often make some players rely more on using Roost to keep Honchkrow going, but it could also end up being a costly free turn to your opponent should they not crumble to the mindgames Honchkrow often imposes with Sucker Punch (Such as a faster, frailer mon capable of KOing trying to dodge Sucker Punch only to get hammered by Brave Bird). Pursuit as of late has been my preferred option because of the aforementioned mindgames that Honchkrow's presence often causes, you can at times find yourself getting a free kill and in turn, a free Moxie boost that could pave the way for a sweep. Trapping a Victini after it's blown something up with a V-Create is also pretty awesome given how annoying it can be to deal with given its hit-and-run nature. I definitely think that the offensive force and pressure it can put on the opponent at almost any time in the match allow it to maintain its position of A+ rank.

I don't have much to touch on with Hydreigon, but honestly you can get a nice dual-Dark core out of Honchkrow and Hydreigon. Considering how popular Mew is and how WoW variants are such a roadblock to Honchkrow, Hydreigon easily gets an easy switch on any defensive Mew set and pretty much a free turn to continue putting pressure on the opponent. Hydreigon's resistance to Electric moves also means it's able to check and immediately threaten a number of the Electric-types who get in Honchkrow's way. Hydreigon's also able to punch holes in, if not slaughter any of the physical walls who plague Honchkrow, which can be useful if hazard support or prior damage hasn't taken its toll yet. Conversely, even though Honchkrow can't switch in on Moonblast, it's able to absolutely MURDER Florges with Brave Bird, something Hydreigon appreciates greatly. A simple U-turn on a predicted switch can spell disaster in these cases. It's not the ultimate offensive core because there isn't any outstanding synergy (Shared Ice + Fairy weaknesses), recoil from Stealth Rock and Life Orb can rack up on both, if not at least Honchkrow, the fact they're both slow and can be beaten by most faster offensive Pokemon, and an extreme reliance on hazard support to net kills on the opponent. These flaws hold it back from perfect execution, but it isn't hard to patch up the holes they have with team support, and it can really apply pressure onto the opponent.

 

[Punchshroom]

Honchkrow is really quite the unique offensive monster: most offensive threats that don't resist Dark have to worry about the Sucker Punch + Pursuit combination (especially Scarf Jirachi and V-Create Victini), you can't just sac a weakened mon against it willy-nilly without concerning yourself about the Moxie boost you just gave it, and Brave Bird just about fucks up anything defensive that isn't Flying-resistant, but even then it's not like Honch doesn't have options for them either. As per mentioned, Honchkrow can cleave through even bulky Grounds like Swampert and SpD Hippowdon, while still standing a good chance to 2HKO physically defensive Hippo after Spikes. Powerful priority, powerful holepunching move, excellent STABs. Even though Honch is pretty prediction-reliant, if you don't have a faster Dark-resist (they cannot switch into Brave Bird at all) or a bulky Flying-resist (they don't stop Honch from Pursuiting) you will not enjoy fighting this thing at all.

 

[Drawler]

I think M-Houndoom or Victini would be better wallbreaking partners for Honchkrow. Defensive Mew cannot touch either of them, and both are good at luring out and crippling the bulky waters that often succeed as last ditch checks to Moxiekrow. They also destroy M-Aggron, who is a solid counter to Honchkrow.

 

[Pipotchi]

Yea Honchkrow definitely fits the A+ tier. There is next to nothing in the tier that can avoid a 2hko from the right attack, and depending on what it uses in its 4th moveslot it can spell trouble for many different ways of trying to deal with it. the only thing I have really found that was a decent time against it was physically defensive arcanine with rocky helmet- and even then it was mainly just using recovery while hoping that Honchkrow would kill itself eventually. There really is very little that can deal with the bird here, and there's seemingly nothing that can wall it and also walk out of the fight with full hp, and 100% of its defensive checks disappear once it gets a moxie boost which is exceedingly easy to do with STAB pursuit. I hate this pokemon. A+

 

[newfren]

Honchkrow's really good. Punchshroom and Brobat pretty much said everything there is about it. I'm pretty comfortable with comparing it to Victini/Mienshao/Heracross and keeping it in A+.

Hydreigon a great mon that can do serious work against offensive, balance, or stall teams, although that largely depends on the set. Life Orb set and specs sets are actually legit, I dunno why limitless doesn't think they are. It basically means whenever you switch it into something slower on a team without a florges or umbreon you get a free kill, and if they have a florges or an umbreon you get momentum to go into your specs zone or mienshao or whatever. I'd be pretty comfortable keeping it in the same level as mienshao or heracross or tini.

I'm definitely not comfortable putting it up in S-rank, especially with so many florges running around the tier, but A+ seems a good fit.

 

[Jellied Eels]

While I love using Hydreigon for its unique set of resistances and very nice bulk (seriously this thing has better defensive stats than Zapdos) I have to say I really can't see it above A rank. I've tried a number of sets and tbh I always fall back on either Scarf or LO Roost simply because they don't have as much of an opportunity cost. Running mixed Iron Tail or Specs can sound appealing but in the end they don't help Hydreigon mitigate its biggest flaws, namely a trolly speed tier and a crippling weakness to the Fairy-types in the tier.

I think what it really comes down to in the end is that Hydreigon is simply unable to wallbreak effectively by itself in UU. For example, when you compare it with Victini (which shares Hydreigon's great bulk and ability to run unorthodox sets to surprise would-be counters) or Nidoking (nvm King isn't officially ranked lol), Hydreigon's lack of spammable STAB moves is really what hinders it. Draco Meteor is obviously better suited to revenge killing and Dark Pulse not only has somewhat low BP but is also resisted by the two most common SpDef walls in the tier. Victini can often get past through its checks by simply going CB V-Create or more importantly using unexpected but good alternate sets. Emphasis on good. Running Special or Mixed Victini is an infinitely more effective way to destroy counters than using a shitty move like Iron Tail or Superpower on Hydreigon, that offers no good coverage and often simply won't get you past their destinated targets. Imo the best Hydreigon moveset is simply Dark Pulse / DM / U-turn / Roost if LO and Dark Pulse / DM / U-turn / Fire Blast or Sleep Talk if Scarf. Simply U-turning out of Florges / Umbreon / SpDef Hippo / whatever is ultimately going to yield better results because you'll never have a useless move on your dragon for half the matches where you don't see the specific counter you try to lure in.

Which brings me to my next point : where Hydreigon really shines is at being a tremendous team player and glue mon. The resistances to Dark and Ghost especially are very hard to come by and make it so that Hydreigon is pretty much the only good offensive check to Mega Houdoom and Chandelure (unless you want to count like CB Snorlax), something that was sorely needed in the tier. Both of those mons are just so threatening to offensive (Flame Charge MDoom) and balanced (that darned SubSplit LO Chandy set that is popping up in the ladder) teams alike that it really should influence Hydreigon's ranking. Checking a ton of other dangerous shit like Shaymin, Celebi, Sharpedo, or Azelf is just icing on the cake.
Pretty much every one above me has commented on how good Hydreigon is in two-mons offensive cores as well and I'm not sure what that means about its own rank but the fact remains that Dreigon is threatening enough that clicking U-turn is often the means of getting a Nido, Victini or Magnezone (milk it while you can folks) in for free. It pairs up well with nearly all of the best wallbreakers in UU, both defensively and offensively, and that greatly increases its chances of pulling off a sweep late game itself (I'm assuming Scarf here of course).

All in all I think Hydreigon should be A rank for its tremendous synergy with common team archetypes but falling short of the wallbreaking or sweeping standards set by the current Pokemons in A+ and S rank.

 

[EonX]

Everything I want to say about Honchkrow has already been said, so I'll skip it. A+ rank for sure.

Hydreigon: I feel Hydreigon sits nicely at A rank. It has a unique set of resistances, access to U-turn, and Levitate to make it immune to Ground and Spikes. The main problem for Hydreigon comes in the fact that it's only standout set is Choice Scarf. While mixed Life Orb isn't bad, you typically want to use Hydreigon to help cover stuff like Victini, Nidoking, Magnezone (for now) and Heracross from stuff they don't like. Considering these are some of the top wallbreakers in the tier, this makes a wallbreaking set for Hydreigon redundant most of the time. Maybe not so much bad as kind of unnecessary for the teams it gets used on. Dark / Dragon is a unique typing and comes with a rare set of resistances to Fire, Dark, Ghost, Water, Electric, and a Ground immunity. This makes Hydra a great offensive check to the likes of Mega-Houndoom, Chandelure, Nidoking, and Victini, something that is otherwise hard to find in one Pokemon. While Hydra certainly has issues with its Speed tier, offensive typing (man fuk Florges) and its inability to break special walls like Florges and Umbreon, it does come with a rare set of resistances that helps it synergize very nicely defensively and offensively with most wallbreakers in the tier.

 

[Volbeatdown]

While I am new to the Smogon Forums, I consider myself to be an experienced and skilled player in the UU tier, I think I can contribute somewhat to the topic at hand.
I think that everything there is to say about Honchkrow has been said, and I agree that it falls safely in the A+ Rank due to it's insane offensive prowess.

Hydreigon: Hydreigon's unique typing of Dragon and Dark gives him a great set of resistances in Water, Fire, Electric, Dark and Ghost, some of the most common offensive typings in the tier. Hydreigon also has access to Levitate, giving him an immunity to Ground as well as Spikes. His typing makes him a great offensive check to Victini, Mega Houndoom, and Chandelure, all of which are prevalent threats in the meta. Hydreigon can run two sets, the Mixed LO set, or Choice Scarf. While the Scarf set is much more efficient at his main role of "Revenge-Killer", the Mixed LO set works very well when paired up with Magnezone. Yes, the dreaded "DragMag" combination in which a dragon is paired with a Magnezone to form a great offensive core. In this case, Hydrei becomes a very potent attacker, being able to switch out from most of his checks/counters (like Florges) into Magnezone. Hydreigon can also help out wallbreakers such as Victini and Nidoking by taking out things that they don't appreciate.

Hydreigon works very well as a Revenge-Killer or a Mixed Attacker, boasting a great typing and very good offensive and defensive synergy with wallbreakers of all kinds, which I think safely lands it in A Rank.

 

[LeekSlap/ChewyDonuts]

I gotta save my boy Toxicroak: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-115938491

Now what you saw there was Toxicroak owning a team and it's not a first. There have been so many occaisons where Dry Skin pulls through, I Sword's Dance and destroy at least half a team. This is happening all the time. So what does that mean? Toxicroak for S rank or A+ rank. Let me get more in depth: Toxicroak can set up on some of the most common pokemon in the tier and can run Nasty Plot too adding to it unpredicability. Toxicroak is not common and mostly forgotten among players. Even if you know what it does, it can still set up on your pokemon like a boss. It has boosted strong priority in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave, something that is mostly locked in OU. He has an immensly powerful STAB in Gunk Shot which obliterates Florges, the most common pokemon in UU. He can't be Life Orb stalled easily because of Drain Punch and can also break walls because of it too and the sidenote it's immune to Toxic. Any psychic type waiting to abuse this king gets murdered by Sucker Punch. Some ground types such as Donphan and Krookodile give Toxicroak a run for its money but in UU, grass types and water types are very common. Also, in UU there are no flying types that can resist Sucker Punch aside from Togetic and Vullaby, as if those are topping the charts. Toxicroak deserves it.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Allow me to butcher this a bit.

I gotta save my boy Toxicroak: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-115938491

Now what you saw there was Toxicroak owning a team and it's not a first. There have been so many occaisons where Dry Skin pulls through, I Sword's Dance and destroy at least half a team. This is happening all the time. So what does that mean? Toxicroak for S rank or A+ rank.

Okay..

Let me get more in depth: Toxicroak can set up on some of the most common pokemon in the tier and can run Nasty Plot too adding to it unpredicability.

I really don't know what constitutes as common in the tier. Regardless whether you look at 1695 stats or UU Viability ranks, but it doesn't really set up on those alleged common Pokemon.

Toxicroak is not common and mostly forgotten among players. Even if you know what it does, it can still set up on your pokemon like a boss.

Toxicroak essentially is there to deal with Mono STAB CM Suicune. It cannot set up on similar Pokemon like Slowbro's Scald simply because of the threat of Psyshock.

It has boosted strong priority in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave, something that is mostly locked in OU.

It does not receive STAB in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave only works on NP Toxicroak, which in of itself is slightly gimmicky. As to the phrase about these moves being "mostly locked in OU", I would gladly introduce you to Honchkrow, a Pokemon whose fucking crazy strengths was the point of discussion not even five posts ago.

He has an immensly powerful STAB in Gunk Shot which obliterates Florges, the most common pokemon in UU.

You're right about that, but you do realize there are a number of other, safer options that can just as easily kill Florges while still serve a purpose for the team.

He can't be Life Orb stalled easily because of Drain Punch and can also break walls because of it too and the sidenote it's immune to Toxic.

Really don't understand the point of the statement here. Immunity to Toxic is nice, but I'm pretty sure neither of these are the selling points.

Any psychic type waiting to abuse this king gets murdered by Sucker Punch. Some ground types such as Donphan and Krookodile give Toxicroak a run for its money but in UU, grass types and water types are very common. Also, in UU there are no flying types that can resist Sucker Punch aside from Togetic and Vullaby, as if those are topping the charts. Toxicroak deserves it.

Not really. If you look at the viability rankings, the top Psychics in the tier are primarily defensive Pokemon, which can either status you out or take next to nothing from Sucker Punch, not to also mention Sucker Punch is so easily PP stalled by walls such as Slowbro and Mew (Slack Off/Roost lulz). Furthermore, Toxicroak can't OHKO some of the more prominent Psychic types without a boost.

Toxicroak may have worked for you, which is good for you, but Toxicroak is more of a niche counter to Suicune back when Mono-Attack Suicune was a thing. With the meta shifting toward wall-breaking and high-damage outputs, Toxicroak has limited set-up opportunities. Now that his main switch-in took a nosedive in the rankings (meaning it's not as good as it once was), Toxicroak's main niche was also significantly nerfed. If you want to get a taste of what's trending and what's not in the metagame, I would suggest reading the posts here. They provide some very nice information for you.

EDIT: As for the Hydreigon and Honchkrow talk atm, Honchkrow is undeniably A+. It's probably by far one of the best Pokemon that can snowball into late game. The fact that a +1 Sucker Punch significantly hurts offensive Pokemon that resist Dark is more than a testament to its power.

Hydreigon on the other hand is probably less so. Although Florges is a thing, he can still do tons of damage with unique STABs and resistances, but I definitely feel that many of the top wallbreakers in the tier right now (Heracross, Honchkrow, Nidoqueen, Mega-Houndoom) can break everything that Hydreigon can break, not to also mention Hydreigon has no way of bypassing Florges. Definitely an A Rank Pokemon.

 

[Bouff]

I gotta save my boy Toxicroak: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-115938491

Now what you saw there was Toxicroak owning a team and it's not a first. There have been so many occaisons where Dry Skin pulls through, I Sword's Dance and destroy at least half a team. This is happening all the time. So what does that mean? Toxicroak for S rank or A+ rank. Let me get more in depth: Toxicroak can set up on some of the most common pokemon in the tier and can run Nasty Plot too adding to it unpredicability. Toxicroak is not common and mostly forgotten among players. Even if you know what it does, it can still set up on your pokemon like a boss. It has boosted strong priority in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave, something that is mostly locked in OU. He has an immensly powerful STAB in Gunk Shot which obliterates Florges, the most common pokemon in UU. He can't be Life Orb stalled easily because of Drain Punch and can also break walls because of it too and the sidenote it's immune to Toxic. Any psychic type waiting to abuse this king gets murdered by Sucker Punch. Some ground types such as Donphan and Krookodile give Toxicroak a run for its money but in UU, grass types and water types are very common. Also, in UU there are no flying types that can resist Sucker Punch aside from Togetic and Vullaby, as if those are topping the charts. Toxicroak deserves it.

lol this post

eaglehawk said pretty much everything i would, except that honchkrow resists sucker punch so you're wrong on that. toxicroak is nowhere near S, or even A+ rank. it has really bad defenses, with a mediocre defensive typing (that lets it check hera or some shit idfk) :^)

 

[Kangaaroo]

lol this post

eaglehawk said pretty much everything i would, except that honchkrow resists sucker punch so you're wrong on that. toxicroak is nowhere near S, or even A+ rank. it has really bad defenses, with a mediocre defensive typing (that lets it check hera or some shit idfk) :^)

Lol doesn't even check Hera if running EQ.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Toxicroak's niche has always been its unique typing + Dry Skin allowing him to be able to set up on several things in the metagame like Crocune, certain Blastoises and Umbreon, as well as being able to break through walls like Florges and Snorlax after setting up. However, it is still a tad bit too frail and slow, not to mention that its damage output is lacking without a boost, which is hard to grab in the current metagame. Its reliance on Sucker Punch to beat faster threats is also another downfall since status moves and Extreme Speed easily circumvents that and the fact that it isn't STAB means it cannot break through faster Dark-resist threats such as Hydreigon and Mienshao without a few boosts.There is no doubt that it is a good mon and that it has a niche in the metagame, but it just isn't as good with the decline of Water types that it can set up on (Suicune not used as much, Blastoise carrying Ice Beam etc.) as well as the release of Hydreigon who checks it easily.


Anyway back on Honchkrow. It definitely reminds me of Darmanitan with its suicidal STAB move that destroys anything that doesn't resist as well as a rock weakness that limits their switch-ins, but it differentiates from Darm in that it is slower, has a wider movepool that grants it STAB priority/Pursuit as well as recovery or gimmicky options like Psycho Shift and most importantly, Moxie to snowball attack boosts. Krow's ability to go mixed is also nice, but I don't really think this curent meta warrants it to go mixed. They also have different counters that they can't bypass, like Water types for Darm and Mega Amphy/Aggron for Krow. However, as one can see, most of Darm's counters have recovery (Slowbro/CroCune) while Krow's don't, meaning they can only switch in for limited times. Its reliance on Sucker Punch/Pursuit mindgames to get past faster things, slow speed tier, lack of U-turn to preserve momentum as well as a SR weakness prevents it to be S rank. However, it definitely is solid A+

 

[Petrico94]

So how about that Shaymin?

 

[kokoloko]

lol jesus people really saying honch is better than hydreigon what the fuck

ok lets make something clear here: viability takes into account how easy it is to fit a pokemon into a team, and on that front alone honchkrow cannot possibly be ranked higher than hydreigon.

while honchkrow has STAB Brave Bird, which is notorious for being one of the most spammable moves in the game due to the low amount of resists, (on top of which, most the ones that are UU-viable are hit super effectively by Dark), and priority in sucker punch, hydreigon has countless things honchkrow could only wish for. bulk, for one, is a major part of why hydreigon is a better pokemon--this inherently makes it easier to fit into a shitload more teams than krow. it has defensive value while krow doesn't. better coverage--we all know about hydreigon's insane movepool. not being weak to stealth rock is also a big plus. u-turn is huge for getting around your checks/counters.

florges is a thing, a big thing. but krow isn't this unstoppable force everyone seems to think it is. you're forgetting that sucker punch is a shitty move that is incredibly easy to play around with any archetype that isn't pure offense.

not to mention hydra has tons of untapped potential because everyone keeps using scarf over and over again. specs with u-turn probably destroys worlds.

note that im not saying krow is bad--it's a nice sallbreaker with the potential to sweep any type of team, but it isn't "better" than hydreigon.

hydreigon belongs in A, or even A+ while honchkrow fits snuggly into A-.

 

[Schpoonman]

If viability takes into account how well a Pokemon fits into a team but is not solely decided on it (Genesect is the quintessential S Pokemon because no matter what team you had, even the most hardy stall team, your team was made better for having it, using your definition), then I don't see just how Hydreigon being easier to fit on a team alone makes it better.

You're kinda missing the point of Sucker Punch, I think. Barring Prankster Will-O-Wisp, how many Pokemon outspeed Honchkrow without compromising on their bulk are gonna fuck with Honchkrow through status/etc? Maybe Trick Victini, but at that point you've just scarfed a Moxie Pokemon with, as you said, one of the most notoriously spammable moves in the game. You can come in with a slower defensive Pokemon and go for whatever, but there's not a lot of shit that likes taking Brave Bird. So I'm wondering where you're going with that point.

Honchkrow is pretty much the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in UU (my personal favorite set being Life Orb with Brave Bird/Sucker Punch/Superpower/Pursuit), because he can wallbreak, revenge, sweep, and even trap. Hydreigon has never popped as a threat like Honchkrow has.

 

[jbtc10]

ok lets make something clear here: viability takes into account how easy it is to fit a pokemon into a team, and on that front alone honchkrow cannot possibly be ranked higher than hydreigon.

Fitting something easily onto a team is still no guarantee for it to be ideal. It's a factor, but shouldn't be the be-all-and-end-all whatsoever. The main thing that matters is how good it is on the type of team that fits it best, since that's where it's going to be used 90% of the time anyway. As a hypothetical example, if a pokemon on a team was responsible for that team being incredibly good to the point where it was a dominant force in the metagame but wasn't particularly great elsewhere (Gen 5 Weather, Gen 6 Baton Pass, etc), then that's really all it needs to be ranked highly. If pokemon X makes team A better than team B, C and D, who all happened to have pokemon Z in common which made them all good teams, and where pokemon X was useless on those other teams, then pokemon X is still a better pokemon than pokemon Z.

Hydreigon wont be lower than A, so I agree with most of what your actually saying about it. It has pretty good typing, decent bulk for an attacker, and it does have ways to combat its counters;

0 Atk Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 206-244 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, it's Iron Tail, but it's still more accurate than Focus Blast and with Florges still being used so frequently and being a severe problem for it, running either that or U-turn is probably going to be necessary if you don't want it to be basically useless until Florges is gone.

I don't really like the comparison to Honchkrow though as they're pretty different and Honchkrow is definitely a big threat which shouldn't be undersold.

And Lord of Bays, Sucker Punch does open the door for faster pokemon to put in a Substitute. Whenever I play offense and want a Honch check, I just slap Sub on something faster like Raikou, which does work well at extinguishing a Moxie snowball.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

I would say Honch is worth A rank. Yes it can wallbreak, late game sweep and revenge/trap. But that does not make it the most dangerous thing ever. Honch is slow as shit for a sweeper and relies way too much on sucker punch (big 8 PP). During my latest session I was using a HO team in the 1500 area and I did not have a single problem with killing Honch, even at +1 (I met around 5 of them). Faster pokemon can Sub on it while walls and utlility pokemon can play around Sucker punch with status. Honch also kills itself really quickly without roost, which it cannot fit into its movepull or can use in fear of enemy attacks, and SR Kills it even faster. It also lacks the Bulk to even take neutral hits from normal sweepers like Nidoking and MegaDoom, Because of this it needs a safe switchin to start a sweep (Which is not easy to get without sacking shit). Common fighting types like Mienshao and Heracross will outspeed and can destroy it with Their STABs. Hell even Florges and Nidoqueen outspeeds Standard Honch and OHKOs with Moonblast/BoltBeam. Just like Kokoloko says I dont understand why you guys are so afraid of it?

Honchkrow is pretty much the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in UU

Megadoom says hi

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I think the biggest threat of facing Honch is the inability to sack something to it. It isn't something like Victini, where if one were to sack something to a move, one can go into the proper check or counter. For Honch, because of SP, there is more punishment for sacking something. That, in my opinion, is the scariest thing about Honch.

Though I don't think that merits an S rank

 

[EonX]

kokoloko , not that I'm really questioning you because I know you generally know your stuff, but I am a little confused at what you're getting at with how Hydra being able to fit onto multiple team archetypes instantly makes it "better" than Honchkrow.

While I agree that versatility and the ability to fit onto multiple team archetypes is a major pro for any Pokemon, I also have to draw a line. What I mean by that is Honchkrow is one of the most devastating end-game sweepers for offensive-teams, much like Mega-Houndoom. The difference between those two is that Mega-Houndoom is more flexible in that it can boost Speed with Flame Charge or power with Nasty Plot, depending on the type of team it is faced with, which is why it's S rank. Honchkrow can only boost its power, which is great when facing balanced and more defensive teams that will generally have few (or no) Pokemon to outspeed Krow. However, this makes Krow faulter against offensive teams as most things with Sub and a strong super effective attack can navigate around it. There's also the faster Pokemon that can tank out a Sucker Punch and retaliate (think Heracross, and ironically enough, Hydreigon and Mega-Houndoom) Honchkrow's ability to absoltuely devastate many defensive and balanced teams makes it S rank material, but it falls short of this due to its inability to reliably beat offensive teams due to Sub users and naturally faster Pokemon that are capable of enduring a Sucker Punch and KOing back. This makes it less consistent than Mega-Houndoom, another late-game cleaner of similar typing. For this reason, Honch should be A+/A imo depending on how much one feels this inability to be consistent against offensive teams is truly a hinderance (it is, but to what extent? This is more of an opinionated answer depending on who you ask)

So, I guess what I'm saying koko is that I do feel Honch is A+, but I would like some clarity on your thoughts so I can better understand where you're coming from with your argument of Krow being A- (which I'm sure is valid, but I'm just not getting it right now)

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

kokoloko , not that I'm really questioning you because I know you generally know your stuff, but I am a little confused at what you're getting at with how Hydra being able to fit onto multiple team archetypes instantly makes it "better" than Honchkrow.

While I agree that versatility and the ability to fit onto multiple team archetypes is a major pro for any Pokemon, I also have to draw a line. What I mean by that is Honchkrow is one of the most devastating end-game sweepers for offensive-teams, much like Mega-Houndoom. The difference between those two is that Mega-Houndoom is more flexible in that it can boost Speed with Flame Charge or power with Nasty Plot, depending on the type of team it is faced with, which is why it's S rank. Honchkrow can only boost its power, which is great when facing balanced and more defensive teams that will generally have few (or no) Pokemon to outspeed Krow. However, this makes Krow faulter against offensive teams as most things with Sub and a strong super effective attack can navigate around it. There's also the faster Pokemon that can tank out a Sucker Punch and retaliate (think Heracross, and ironically enough, Hydreigon and Mega-Houndoom) Honchkrow's ability to absoltuely devastate many defensive and balanced teams makes it S rank material, but it falls short of this due to its inability to reliably beat offensive teams due to Sub users and naturally faster Pokemon that are capable of enduring a Sucker Punch and KOing back. This makes it less consistent than Mega-Houndoom, another late-game cleaner of similar typing. For this reason, Honch should be A+/A imo depending on how much one feels this inability to be consistent against offensive teams is truly a hinderance (it is, but to what extent? This is more of an opinionated answer depending on who you ask)

So, I guess what I'm saying koko is that I do feel Honch is A+, but I would like some clarity on your thoughts so I can better understand where you're coming from with your argument of Krow being A- (which I'm sure is valid, but I'm just not getting it right now)

I finally got some points on Hydreigon...Not going to suggest where I think it should be placed, but I do have my two cents. Personally I think I can answer that one for Kokoloko, because I see where he's coming from. If you wanna zoom out and look at things from a very simple perspective, Hydreigon's typing is actually incredibly useful offensively and defensively; the only relatively common Pokemon in the tier who resist your STABs are Cobalion and Florges, both of whom can be picked off by a coverage move. Defensively, on top of surprisingly decent 92/90/90 bulk, Hydreigon's got 6 resistances and 2 immunities; even with exploitable weaknesses to Bug, Fighting, Ice, Dragon, and Fairy (the most common attacking type of those being Fighting), it isn't really hard to patch those up with teammates alongside it. Unless they're also Dark and/or Dragon-types, most Pokemon can make a core with Hydreigon very easily given the defensive synergy it offers. This plus its powerhouse stats and movepool (especially U-turn, for that juicy momentum) make it really easy to fit into most Balanced/Offensive teams with little to no thought.

Of course Hydreigon's speed isn't perfect and this falls back on making it easier to deal with than something like Mega Houndoom in the cleaning role, it's an offensive powerhouse who can make use of its natural defensive capabilities to get in on a number of Pokemon and force the opponent to answer it immediately in some way. Not only that, but it's significantly less one-dimensional than Honchkrow, being able to run offensive sets ranging from Scarf, Specs, Life Orb, to some hilariously gimmicky defensive set with Taunt, or some Work Up + Tailwind set that I hope you don't take into serious consideration. That aside, the fact it can perform different roles on a team would by extension improve its viability in the tier since it's able to help your team with different roles of support that are required, and also force your opponent to address how they have to deal with what you're running. Like with Honchkrow, I would be all like, "Oh okay. I can toss my Phys. Def Mega Ampharos at it and I should be fine and dandy." or "Long as I keep my WoW Mew alive, I can get a burn off on it and keep it from sweeping me." With Hydreigon you need to know exactly what you're dealing with before you can go about considering how to deal with it, which in turn technically makes it more of a threat. Not in the direct sense that it's able to annihilate your entire team if it gets a single kill, but in the sense that if the opponent plays decently and takes advantage, it can give you serious problems along the way.

 

[Bluwing]

I agree with everything CoolStoryBrobat said, Hydreigon is just so versatile and with such amazing coverage options it will always force switches which makes it a whole lot easier to grab momentum. And not only that Hydreigon is probably the best offensive check to any offensive threath in the tier bar Scarf Mienshao and Scarf Flygon when sporting the scarf itself. Having the ability to check and beat every S and A+ tier mon is an incredible feat, most importantly Honckrow + Houndoom and Victini + Darmanitan, only with it's presence it will guarantee you safe way to deal with these pokemon as most off the tier really struggles to handle dark+fire coverage, and Hydreigon's typing itself helps it out a shitton. Ranking Hydreigon now this early, tho ive played a lot with it is still hard, but I have to say that just because off it's versatility which is pretty dangerous as scouting is much harder in later gens due to powercreep, it can be really devastating too guess wrong, ranking a pokemon lower just because it can't beat everything is nonsense. In the way Hydreigon supports it's team with momentum, coverage, typing and cleaning/wallbreaking abilities I will say A+ rank, and I think when the metagame adapts to the recent changes in the tier I think thats what most people will agree with.

 

[Limitless]

Honchkrow is being moved down to A rank, while Hydreigon was added to A+ rank. Additionally, Mega Houndoom was moved down to A+ rank, due to the addition of Hydreigon.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Nidoking and Mega Absol.

 

[Petrico94]

Wow only 2 S rank, and Mew is only there because it can have infinite movesets.

 

[Qwilphish]

I don't have much experience with Nidoking as Nidoqueen is pretty much better in almost all of its roles besides All-Out Offensive sets.

Mega-Absol is something I do have experience with however. Absol is obviously very powerful and fast with access to one of the strongest Knock Offs in the tier. Magic Bounce is also extremely useful, especially on Turn 1 where it can completely dismantle most dedicated leads such as Azelf and Smeargle. Sucker Punch is probably the main reason to use Mega-Absol as it is the only Sucker Punch abuser who can only be blocked by Substitute or Switching because of Magic Bounce, which combined with the fact that it is the strongest unboosted priority move in the tier makes it an effective late-game sweeper once Fighting Scarfers are eliminated. Absol has the distinction of being able to get bast Slowbro as a physical attacker with almost no drawbacks compared to others like Victini (Locked into Bolt Strike) and Honchkrow (Sucker Punch) Mega-Absol also has the option to go mixed, which, when combined with its crazy special movepool makes Absol not as predictable as it may seem at first, even if physically offensive is its best set. Mega-Absol is held back by its tissue defenses meaning that its potentially broken SD set can rarely set-up reliably. Florges is also a problem for Absol however unlike Hydreigon doesn't even get U-Turn to switch out against it (although it can run Iron Tail like Hydreigon). More of a theorymon point, but the fact that Absol can't run Knock Off + Play Rough together means that it has to either run suboptimal coverage such as Superpower or Psycho Cut or run Night Slash - a major downgrade from Knock Off. Of course, also the fact that Absol uses up a Mega slot is one of its major issues as well.

Personally, if Mega-Absol was not a Mega, I could not picture putting it below Honchkrow at A-Rank, as they both are powerful attackers who rely on Sucker Punch to pick off faster threats. There are distinctions between the two, but Honchkrow is perhaps the best comparison Pokemon to what they both do. However, the fact that Mega-Absol fills the Mega slot that could have been occupied by Pokemon who are perhaps more reliable such as MegaMan and MegaDoom makes it a lot harder to fit onto teams that want a either a Fast Attacker (Manectric) or a Powerful Attacker (Houndoom).

For these reasons I think Absol should be moved down to A- Rank