I dont care whether snorlax is good or not or which phazing move is better for aggron, the point is phazers are rare, as such florges will reliably be able to recover most of the matches because it will almost never have to face them. Your argument is that florges's recovery is unreliable but that is completely wrong because the things that stop it are not commonly used. Again, whether the phazers are good or not is irrelevant, if they are not being used often then that means that florges can reliable do what it has to the majority of the time.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Just a brief outline of the changes I made:
Tornadus-T to S
Umbreon to A+
Hydreigon to A+
And just to prove I do read all the posts in this thread, there were a couple posts that really pushed me over the edge on Tornadus-T to S rank. Additionally, I suspect that a lot of people will be angered that I moved Hydreigon down to A+, but in my opinion, it just isn't at the level that many of the other S rank Pokemon are at.
Lastly, I'm on edge on whether or not to increase Salamence to S rank. I do not believe the Dragon Dance set is broken at all, as I think Haxorus does the job better. The mix set is decent, but I think the Choice Scarf set is ridiculous. At first I thought the set was tempered by Florges, but then I saw the calculation that Iron Tail does approximately 80% to Florges with an Adamant nature. I know a lot of you don't use Adamant, but I do.
I'm also considering moving Blastoise (Mega) and Houndoom (Mega) down to A rank, so feel free to discuss these possible changes.
Tornadus-T to S
Umbreon to A+
Hydreigon to A+
And just to prove I do read all the posts in this thread, there were a couple posts that really pushed me over the edge on Tornadus-T to S rank. Additionally, I suspect that a lot of people will be angered that I moved Hydreigon down to A+, but in my opinion, it just isn't at the level that many of the other S rank Pokemon are at.
Lastly, I'm on edge on whether or not to increase Salamence to S rank. I do not believe the Dragon Dance set is broken at all, as I think Haxorus does the job better. The mix set is decent, but I think the Choice Scarf set is ridiculous. At first I thought the set was tempered by Florges, but then I saw the calculation that Iron Tail does approximately 80% to Florges with an Adamant nature. I know a lot of you don't use Adamant, but I do.
I'm also considering moving Blastoise (Mega) and Houndoom (Mega) down to A rank, so feel free to discuss these possible changes.
The combinded usage of phazing moves on Mega Aggron, Hippowdon, Empoleon and Snorlax Is greater than RU Suicune.
Logic : Suicune is good but rare, no need to prepare for it.
Also, my opinions are A+ for Salamance and Mega Houndoom and A for Mega Blastoise. I am not free right now but I might give detailed explanations later.
Again your argument was about reliability, if the things that stop you are uncommon then you can reliably do your job most of the time. I never said anything about not preparing for phazing just because its uncommon so stop putting words in my mouth.
I dont understand why Umbreon jumps up to A+, As I've looked at it as a B+ mon the entire gen 6 UU beta. But I will take that discussion another time.
Salamence is not broken, but it is really powerful and has alot of unpredictability. I support it jumping to S.
Mega-Blastoise should stay in A+, It is without a though the best mega in UU as of now. Mega-
blastoise has amazing coverage, great defenses, and can stop the all powerfull Firetypes in the tier.
Mega-houndoom is an oddball, since I never saw it a treath. gastrodon counters NP versions without HP grass, A-vest Entei stop it and can do serious damage with stone edge (bulldoze lol), Mega-blastoise, Suicune, Umbreon and Florges laugh at it if it lacks set up. solar power + Sunny day is good, but takes alot of recoil. Also many common scarfers take care of it, Unburden Hawlucha and Hitmonlee can grap their boost(s) from it and continue to wreck your team with fantastic dual STAB or 200 BP reversal respectively. I say Drop to A for now.
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I am for moving Salamence to S-Rank. Salamence is an incredibly devastating setup attacker and revenge killer. I've used it in tandem with Mega Manectric and the ease it has setting up by forcing switches with this dual Intimidate strategy is just astounding. It has some decent physical bulk setting up as well. It can also be used as an effective offensive Defogger.
All in all, I believe Salamence has what it takes to be S.
Just wondering, have you thought about Mega Manectric's placement, looking at the arguments scattered over the last pages?
seconding salamence's movement. while its true that haxorus hits harder with a DD set, both of them still hit stupidly hard anyway and salamence can get past florges with iron tail regardless (+1 is an OHKO unless there is significant physical bulk investment). the thing that differentiates both is that haxorus is pretty one dimensional and aside from DD, SD and choice there really isn't much it can do. meanwhile, salamence's options include mix, DD, scarf, defogger, all-out attacker heck fucking fatmence is viable. salamence's versatility means that it can fit into a multitude of roles without much issues, with two great abilities in intimidate and moxie and an excellent offensive spread, making him a good fit for S imo.
Along with this, I feel Nidoqueen should move to A/A+. This thing better defensive capabilities make it a great offensive Stealth Rocker that is very hard to switch into. Since Nidoqueen's low speed also allows it to run Modest, it technically hits harder than Timid Nidoking. It's low speed can be someone harmful against certain threats, such as against Pokemon such as Blastoise, but I feel Nidoqueen is still very much on the same level on Nidoking, and deserves to move up as well.
Okay. Honestly, if Florges had Recover, I could totally see it being S rank too. Then, its only remaining flaw would be sub-par physical bulk which isn't that much of an issue when it's the best special wall anyway. But if it's already been "demoted" for not having Recover, then why move it down further?
The fact remains that switching out to a phazer and phazing Florges before it can heal is a really poor strategy that not only robs you of any momentum you might have had, but heals a random opposing pokemon for 180 HP. That's why no one does it, because it's honestly a really poor strategy and doesn't have an impact on Florges' performance.
Another one that is for Salamence moving to S Rank. The Scarf set is absolutely ridiculous. Although you can certainly use Iron Tail to break Florges, let's not forget that Salamence works really well with Nidoking (wallbreaker) and Roserade (Spikes setter) two of the absolute best switch-ins to Florges in the entire tier. So, you don't have to rely on Mence to break its own primary counter, but the simple fact that it can if worst comes to worst is really cool.
I also support the move of Nidoking to A+ rank. With Chansey gone, there is literally no defensive Pokemon that can safely switch in on Nidoking. Between Sludge Wave, Earth Power, and Focus Blast, Nidoking can break most stall cores. But here's the best part; it has another moveslot! Between Thunderbolt, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, and Shadow Ball, Nidoking has plenty of coverage options to put in that last slot to pressure certain defensive Pokemon that might live otherwise. TBolt wrecks bulky Waters, primarily in AV Slowbro. Fire Blast handles another AV user, Escavalier. Also deals with SpDef Roserade and Trevenant. Ice Beam is more reliable for Grasses, but you lose out on AV Escavalier. Shadow Ball is often forgotten about, but guess what it can hit? SpDef Mew, AV Slowbro, and Trevenant. Pretty much the comprimise to hit a primary target of one of the other moves. So, basically, until you know that 4th move, your "check" may get their shit wrecked.
As for Nidoqueen, I'm a little unsure on her. Queen's lower Speed and suspect defensive typing leaves it a lot more vulnerable against offensive teams, but that added bulk only makes it worse for balanced and stall teams to face. However, since it has the same great 3-move coverage Nidoking has, it's very easy to give Nidoqueen Stealth Rock without losing much in coverage. Overall, I think it's good enough to be A Rank, but it has a few more faults than Nidoking that prevent it from being quite as consistent as Nidoking to keep it from A+.
I also support the move of Nidoking to A+ rank. With Chansey gone, there is literally no defensive Pokemon that can safely switch in on Nidoking. Between Sludge Wave, Earth Power, and Focus Blast, Nidoking can break most stall cores. But here's the best part; it has another moveslot! Between Thunderbolt, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, and Shadow Ball, Nidoking has plenty of coverage options to put in that last slot to pressure certain defensive Pokemon that might live otherwise. TBolt wrecks bulky Waters, primarily in AV Slowbro. Fire Blast handles another AV user, Escavalier. Also deals with SpDef Roserade and Trevenant. Ice Beam is more reliable for Grasses, but you lose out on AV Escavalier. Shadow Ball is often forgotten about, but guess what it can hit? SpDef Mew, AV Slowbro, and Trevenant. Pretty much the comprimise to hit a primary target of one of the other moves. So, basically, until you know that 4th move, your "check" may get their shit wrecked.
As for Nidoqueen, I'm a little unsure on her. Queen's lower Speed and suspect defensive typing leaves it a lot more vulnerable against offensive teams, but that added bulk only makes it worse for balanced and stall teams to face. However, since it has the same great 3-move coverage Nidoking has, it's very easy to give Nidoqueen Stealth Rock without losing much in coverage. Overall, I think it's good enough to be A Rank, but it has a few more faults than Nidoking that prevent it from being quite as consistent as Nidoking to keep it from A+.
Salamence can also do Focus energy + Scope lens better better than kingdra, which is nice
You're missing the entire point. The reason why either Haxorus or Salamence are eligible for S rank (or even broken) is because one of their sets is particularly strong. In the case of Haxorus, it is the double dance set, which is stupidly strong. I'm not really sure if anything "counters" that set. Salamence's only really strong set is the Choice Scarf set, which is again, why it is eligible for S rank. I think this is an important distinction as to why it is eligible, as it's not even close to the versatility that a Pokemon like Mew has. When making judgements, it is important to correctly gauge why a Pokemon is eligible. This is one of the main reasons I don't pay attention to peoples' posts, as they don't provide evidence for the real reason why a Pokemon is either strong or weak.
Kingdra's ability, Sniper, is what makes this set so viable, though...
252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 161-191 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon on a critical hit: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Klefki's Prankster Recycle + Air Balloon would allow it to wall pretty much any kind of Haxorus that chooses Poison Jab over Iron Tail (which they usually do since the former kills Florges anyway), which is absolutely amazing by the way since it is immune to 3 types in Dragon, Poison, and Ground now, one of which is its former weakness. This makes it really damn good at setting up Spikes early game, can easily turn the tables on Grounds with Toxic, support with Prankster Thunder Wave, or even possess some basic fighting ability in Play Rough which hits a rather surprising amount of Pokemon.
IMO what puts Nidoking a notch above Queen in viability is that both mons are built in a very similar way that works better offensively (King's case, wallbreaker) than defensively (Queen's case, bulky attacker), in terms of typing and ability. Queen's still very effective though, as a bulky SR setters that can still punch holes on a lot of mons, while putting SR on King doesn't work out that well because it might lose needed coverage as a wallbreaker. I would put her at A, and just one rank below him wherever he ends up going.
However Salamence has greater supereffective coverage
The crt strategy only works on kingdra because of sniper, otherwise its just a shitty dragon dance. Seriously stop using scope lens salamence lol.
Nevermind, I get that why I am not troubled by a random pokemon get healed. That is because I am usually playing (survial) stall that usually last for ~100 turns and don't mind opposing sweepers being at full health. Florges will be the easiet thing to kill for my team and the opposition loses its wishpasser + cleric. More offensive teams are harder to copy thist strategy when they are against a more offensive team with Florges. Florges is easy to wear down against opposing stall but against offense it is still fine if it is not used in a stall team. HOWEVER, when Florges is used in stall, phazing it out to make it heal 180 hp for a random pokemon is just fine even for offensive teams. I fail to see what a full health Slowbro, which would usually be somewhere near that, can do to your team. Florges is still the weak link of the stall team in this case and is the easiest way to break a stall core. My point of Florges being inconsistant still stands.
On Salamence, the reason I find it more of A+ rank is its inability to do much against stall. AV Slowbro is a universal counter too all sets except lol band and can switch out to recover health at any time. Other than that, Salamence isn't threatening stall teams any time with Mega Aggron, Hp ice Tangrowth etc capable of beating it. Looking at the S Rank threats, they all perform well against offense, balance and stall. However, I support that it may possibly be broken as Salamence is simply too much for offensive teams to handle. 100 base speed is crazily good in this meta. The only common scarfer it isn't outspeeding is Mienshao. Simply nothing in offense can take a hit from this monster and even revenge killing isn't an option thanks to Keldeo and Latias gone and the scarce of priority in this tier. However, the (sorta) bad match up against stall and reliance on Outrage to deal heavy damage should keep it out of S Rank.
Going to show quick calcs of Kingdra being better Scope Lens/Sniper/Crit user:
252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon on a critical hit: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
V.S.
252 SpA Sniper Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon on a critical hit: 207-244 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kingdra has higher damage output despite having 40 less base power, AND Gastrodon having higher SDefence :O
Now lets see on a Pokemon with even defences...
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow on a critical hit: 382-451 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
V.S.
252 SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow on a critical hit: 442-522 (115.1 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Matter closed? I believe so.
Now... it's time to talk about Salamence. I won't go over a full review of it since I haven't used it really at all, but I've done testing with my friends and it seems on the last step of the stairs to S-Rank.
Firstly, I'd like to point out what makes Salamence such a big threat (To me, at least), is how it can run so many sets... Mixed, DDSweeper, Banded, Scarfed, Fully Special, hell, even SUPPORT. There are a few more if I'm not mistaken. Not only that, but it's stats definitely aren't a let down, especially it's massive offensive stats of 135/110/100. To back this up even more is how it has a stupidly high amount of moves to rely on, seriously. It goes from Heat Wave, to Crunch, to Hydro Pump.
Both it's abilities, Moxie and Indimidate are definitely good abilities. Moxie allows amazing sweeping power paired with CScarf, while Indimidate grants great support, sometimes even forcing switches. It's typing is most definitely a curse, though. 2x Weak to Rock (Stealth Rock..), Fairy, and Dragon, with a 4x Weakness to Ice. But it does it one immunity and 5 resistances in return. Enough with all of the general things, lets get into my own opinion.
I honestly think Salamence is ready for S-Rank. It's essentially a balanced mix between Hydriegon and Haxorus. Backing with a stupid movepool, great stats, two above decent abilities, it's pretty hard to take out. The DD set actually outclasses Haxorus, I'll give you a few calcs before I end this. But, Salamence holds the power of unpredictability, and sweeping strength, give it a chance to kill a Pokemon or Set-up, and you'll probably lose a Pokemon.
Here's the calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 283-334 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
V.S.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 303-357 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 222-262 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
V.S.
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 208-246 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that all of these are both 2HKO'd, damage does not matter, this is an example both 2HKO some of the exact Pokemon in the tier.
252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon on a critical hit: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
V.S.
252 SpA Sniper Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon on a critical hit: 207-244 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kingdra has higher damage output despite having 40 less base power, AND Gastrodon having higher SDefence :O
Now lets see on a Pokemon with even defences...
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow on a critical hit: 382-451 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
V.S.
252 SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow on a critical hit: 442-522 (115.1 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Matter closed? I believe so.
Going to be discussing this as of now, each Mon at a time. First of all: All Pokemon changes so far I personally am okay with. Tornadus-T as said in my post, is just... too good. Hydreigon also got a boost down was expected, it's speed tier of 98 is definitely okay, but it's still just not enough to get past threats (Slower Threats better be worried, though). Umbreon I personally never used, but it seems like a good move to me. I've seen it Toxic Stall for a LONG time, it seems fit in A+ walling a majority of UU.
Now... it's time to talk about Salamence. I won't go over a full review of it since I haven't used it really at all, but I've done testing with my friends and it seems on the last step of the stairs to S-Rank.
Firstly, I'd like to point out what makes Salamence such a big threat (To me, at least), is how it can run so many sets... Mixed, DDSweeper, Banded, Scarfed, Fully Special, hell, even SUPPORT. There are a few more if I'm not mistaken. Not only that, but it's stats definitely aren't a let down, especially it's massive offensive stats of 135/110/100. To back this up even more is how it has a stupidly high amount of moves to rely on, seriously. It goes from Heat Wave, to Crunch, to Hydro Pump.
Both it's abilities, Moxie and Indimidate are definitely good abilities. Moxie allows amazing sweeping power paired with CScarf, while Indimidate grants great support, sometimes even forcing switches. It's typing is most definitely a curse, though. 2x Weak to Rock (Stealth Rock..), Fairy, and Dragon, with a 4x Weakness to Ice. But it does it one immunity and 5 resistances in return. Enough with all of the general things, lets get into my own opinion.
I honestly think Salamence is ready for S-Rank. It's essentially a balanced mix between Hydriegon and Haxorus. Backing with a stupid movepool, great stats, two above decent abilities, it's pretty hard to take out. The DD set actually outclasses Haxorus, I'll give you a few calcs before I end this. But, Salamence holds the power of unpredictability, and sweeping strength, give it a chance to kill a Pokemon or Set-up, and you'll probably lose a Pokemon.
Here's the calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 283-334 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
V.S.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 303-357 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 222-262 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
V.S.
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 208-246 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that all of these are both 2HKO'd, damage does not matter, this is an example both 2HKO some of the exact Pokemon in the tier.
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So um. I'm noticing a lot of "I"'s, and "my team"'s, and "in this case" in your posts. The thing is, viability is measured in how effective something is for every single person playing the tier, not just you and your personal team. Literally everyone else in this discussion has said that they very rarely if ever have seen anyone phaze out a Florges and waste two turns for the purpose of denying them wish healing. Regardless of whether or not this is a good strategy in the long run, the objective truth is that it's rarely ever used. If the meta shifts, and in two weeks everyone's playing non dragon-tail phazers to phaze out florges and prevent it from healing, then we can reconsider that as a threat to the rankings and adjust accordingly. But in a tier where no one plays it, it's not a threat.
Honestly, it's tantamount to someone saying "Mega-Aggron isn't an effective phazer because I run suction cups Cradily on my team so I don't let him phaze me out limiting his utility". If your team has an built-in way to make a pokemon less effective, whether or not its optimal, that's great for your team, but it doesn't apply to the meta as a whole. There are top-tier UU threats that are absolutely countered by threats that will eventually be NU, but they're completely irrelevant because they're absolutely and totally rare. It's similar to last gen, when people argued that Chandelure was broken because it could run Scarfed Will-o-Wisp and eliminate Snorlax as a counter. Yes, it could. But no one ever did.
In order for Florges to not be able to reliably "pass" a wish to herself, one of two conditions must be met. First of all, the presence of non-dragon-tail phazers in the tier must be relatively substantial. This is clearly not the case. The only two phazers who commonly carry roar nowadays are Empoleon and Hippowdon (and news flash, if these two were so polarizing as to cause Florges to drop two ranks, the same should be applied to Umbreon, because Foul Play isn't doing jack to them either), and even these don't carry the move 100% of the time. The second condition is that switching into a phazer against a Florges no matter what type of team is on the other side is a commonly used strategy. It's incredibly clear that this is not the case, as practically no one but you has ever even experienced it.
TL;DR If Florges against your team specifically is sufficiently crippled enough by phazers to warrant it dropping to an A- threat, that's wonderful, but it doesn't apply to a meta where very few people use roar/ww phazers and practically no one phazes out a florges.
Oh, also, Limitless , I realize I'm being incredibly annoying/persistant about this, but can Qwilfish get put on the list? I'm pretty sure there was a reasonable consensus on it.
Phazing Florges is a strategy that, as far as I know, only you employ. And if you can handle having something else getting that 180 HP (which in a lot of situations is a huge plus for the opponent, since Wish Passing is nigh impossible to do on sufficiently weakened Pokemon,) then sure, great, Florges is not a threat; to your team. I run Mandibuzz and Bisharp on a very large number of my teams in OU but I can still recognize Aegislash as the best pokemon in the tier, even if I personally don't have a lot of trouble with it.
Yeah, Florges is A+ because it just keeps shit alive. It checks quite a few threats and can be EVed to better handle special attacks (p. much wall any special attacker not named Nidoking/Queen) or it can be EVed to better handle physical attacks (much more relevant now with Mence in the tier) It's a cleric. It can Wishpass. And, unlike Umbreon, you actually need to resist its STAB or have really solid special bulk to reliably setup on Florges.
As for Salamence, it's S rank is justified. And I'll give you one reason as to why you shouldn't discount it against defensive / stall teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-98220176 - so, clearly my opponent here has 2 counters and one hard check to Scarf Salamence. Even with an overprediction mid-game as I try to lure out his Florges, I still manage to clean up with it. And speaking of Florges, this is a classic example of why it is A+ rank as well. Nidoking needed at least 3 chances to avoid crit or SpAtk drop hax against my opponent's Florges to actually break it for Mence, and Florges gave him these chances. Oh, and she also lived LO Steel Wing from Mence at ~60% and poisoned. And she still took it out, kept herself healthy enough to check Heracross if Mence went down, AND kept Nidoking healthy enough to finally break my opponent's Florges. Took 63 turns for me to finally lose a Pokemon, and that was mainly due to the fact I just needed a sacrificial switch to ensure Mega Ampharos could safely remove Xatu (and it wasn't fully necessary either) and it was mainly thanks to Florges.
As for Salamence, it's S rank is justified. And I'll give you one reason as to why you shouldn't discount it against defensive / stall teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-98220176 - so, clearly my opponent here has 2 counters and one hard check to Scarf Salamence. Even with an overprediction mid-game as I try to lure out his Florges, I still manage to clean up with it. And speaking of Florges, this is a classic example of why it is A+ rank as well. Nidoking needed at least 3 chances to avoid crit or SpAtk drop hax against my opponent's Florges to actually break it for Mence, and Florges gave him these chances. Oh, and she also lived LO Steel Wing from Mence at ~60% and poisoned. And she still took it out, kept herself healthy enough to check Heracross if Mence went down, AND kept Nidoking healthy enough to finally break my opponent's Florges. Took 63 turns for me to finally lose a Pokemon, and that was mainly due to the fact I just needed a sacrificial switch to ensure Mega Ampharos could safely remove Xatu (and it wasn't fully necessary either) and it was mainly thanks to Florges.
Have I included any 'I's, 'my team's in my previous posts? These wordings are on my last post just to specify my argument to the situation. Seriously stop using nitpicks as an argument.
As far as I remember, usage can be used as arguing for viability, but it is a weak one. Have I mentioned anything unviable as suction cups Cradily in my posts? I don't get the idea when I use COMMON VIABLE phazers like Hippowdon, Empoleon, Snorlax, Mega Aggron as examples and being commented as 'overspecialized', 'niche' etc when they NATURALLY uses these moves Florges or not. It is not like shit like unviable scarfed WoW Chandelure which is beaten by Snorlax anyway.
The problem of Florges is inconsistancy, especially when the phazers really good in UU and Florges have absolutely zero ways to overcome them unlike the situation of Aegislash. It doesn't matter how well Prankster Riolu last gen can do to a team without protect or faster priority. It is still nothing more than a Punchshroom gimmick. The way I have mentioned about dealing with Florges isn't any niche shit method like Suction Cups Cradily but there is actually four great pokemon using it. Florges cannot properly perform against certain team type (seriously, how many stall teams run none of those) makes it inconsistant enough for A+.
As far as I remember, usage can be used as arguing for viability, but it is a weak one. Have I mentioned anything unviable as suction cups Cradily in my posts? I don't get the idea when I use COMMON VIABLE phazers like Hippowdon, Empoleon, Snorlax, Mega Aggron as examples and being commented as 'overspecialized', 'niche' etc when they NATURALLY uses these moves Florges or not. It is not like shit like unviable scarfed WoW Chandelure which is beaten by Snorlax anyway.
The problem of Florges is inconsistancy, especially when the phazers really good in UU and Florges have absolutely zero ways to overcome them unlike the situation of Aegislash. It doesn't matter how well Prankster Riolu last gen can do to a team without protect or faster priority. It is still nothing more than a Punchshroom gimmick. The way I have mentioned about dealing with Florges isn't any niche shit method like Suction Cups Cradily but there is actually four great pokemon using it. Florges cannot properly perform against certain team type (seriously, how many stall teams run none of those) makes it inconsistant enough for A+.
I definitely think that M-Houndoom should remain A+ rank. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why he isn't S-rank, although I can see his low pre-Mega speed / relative frailty / SR weakness being an issue.
Anyway, M-Houndoom has
Also, why did Magnezone drop to A+? I feel that he's only gotten more viable now that he's regained a niche in trapping steel types and eliminating Florges that would otherwise ruin Salamence's day.
Anyway, M-Houndoom has
- pimped out base 115 speed
- wonderful Fire/Dark dual STAB (resisted only in UU by Hydreigon, Crawdaunt, and Sharpedo)
- decent 75/90/90 defenses that let him live weak hits
- Solar Power, which gives him a free Choice Specs +1 SpA boost (although Sunny Day set is subpar imo)
- Nasty Plot, which massacres everything except special walls
- Destiny Bond, which lets him surprise-KO anything that can live his hits
- and not to forget, Keldeo and Chansey, his biggest check and counter, are gone from the tier
- only really countered by specially defensive Suicune, which no one runs
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 188-224 (64.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 124-147 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 201-237 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 195-231 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 206-243 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 226-267 (77.6 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Suicune: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 124-147 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 201-237 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 195-231 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 206-243 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 226-267 (77.6 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Suicune: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, why did Magnezone drop to A+? I feel that he's only gotten more viable now that he's regained a niche in trapping steel types and eliminating Florges that would otherwise ruin Salamence's day.
- Status