A Life Orb K-B does that with Outrage and no investment no?
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Really? Cuz from my experience, unboosted attacks are usually lucky to 2HKO. Mega Charizard x for instance only has an 89% chance to 2HKO with flare blitz/outrage, and will probably end up killing itself from recoil long before that. Skarm on the other hand has a 25% chance to be OHKO'd by an unboosted flare blitz, and that's on the end he's supposed to wall.
I honestly don't see why chansey wasn't raised a couple ranks the second lucarionite was banned. For A+, I'll need some convincing, but A- seems a no brained to me
Ask and you shall recieve also I'm very bored so:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 746-878 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 438-516 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 328-387 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (50.7 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 378-446 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 413-489 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now some just for fun
252 Atk Guts Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-459 (55.3 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 480-565 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Meloetta-P Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 380-450 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 388-457 (55.1 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 439-517 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This isn't refuting any arguments made here but just wanted an excuse to look up calcs :P.
Edit: this is my first time ninjaing people I will cherish this memory forever.
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Life Orb and especially Outrage are no where near as common as they once were. Even if they this was a common set, would that mean we only have one Pokemon who common Pokemon who can 2HKO Chansey without set-up?
In usage it's not common because people are dumb, but Terrakion is still very good and absolutely does not deserve its current BL tiering.
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 377-445 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 328-387 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-344 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (without eviolite, chansey takes 50-60% from Iron Head)
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
Kyu-B 2HKOs with outrage, easy
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 355-418 (50.4 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (super power OHKOs)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 438-516 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-433 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 378-446 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (so much health)
It does really poorly against a lot of the top physical threats.
Chansey is still extremely good and B+ is just a joke, but S and A+ are really pushing it.
nomnoming f3rrothorn for a-.
Both mluke ban and gene ban help defense playstyle a lot. more hazard centric than last meta. ferrothor. super hurt from last meta but now with decrease in power level in general., ferro better tanks hits and less liability for setup opps.
sorry brokenenglish. on phone rn. txting is a bitch.
Both mluke ban and gene ban help defense playstyle a lot. more hazard centric than last meta. ferrothor. super hurt from last meta but now with decrease in power level in general., ferro better tanks hits and less liability for setup opps.
sorry brokenenglish. on phone rn. txting is a bitch.
Now, I definitely can see Chansey moving up a bit. However, this should not be on the strength that it can wall most physical attackers. Here's what I've come up with for your requested list out of things that have or should have OU usage:
Keldeo (not a physical attacker but you know what I mean)
Terrakion
Conkeldurr
Mega Charizard-X
Mega Medicham (lol)
Scizor (with Superpower)
Azumarill (must have Superpower if not CB)
CB Tyranitar (Except Stone Edge accuracy lol)
Bisharp (Knock Off)
Lucario
Mega Mawile
Infernape
Breloom
Mamoswine (with Superpower)
After Stealth Rock:
Aegislash
Mega Tyranitar (if you can land two Stone Edges)
Mega Pinsir
Terrakion
Conkeldurr
Mega Charizard-X
Mega Medicham (lol)
Scizor (with Superpower)
Azumarill (must have Superpower if not CB)
CB Tyranitar (Except Stone Edge accuracy lol)
Bisharp (Knock Off)
Lucario
Mega Mawile
Infernape
Breloom
Mamoswine (with Superpower)
After Stealth Rock:
Aegislash
Mega Tyranitar (if you can land two Stone Edges)
Mega Pinsir
The really impressive thing is that Chansey can wall every special attacker ever while still taking on SOME physical attacks.
Just to make it even more clear
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-367 (44.3 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even Talonflame 2HKOs it with rocks up.
I say A- for Chansey. It's a great special wall, but if you're using it as a physical wall, with all the physical powerhouses in the tier, you're using it wrong. It can take weaker physical hits.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-367 (44.3 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Even Talonflame 2HKOs it with rocks up.
I say A- for Chansey. It's a great special wall, but if you're using it as a physical wall, with all the physical powerhouses in the tier, you're using it wrong. It can take weaker physical hits.
Why the fck would talon do that even in a lpgical sense. even the 1/3 recoil damage can leave tflame in 2hko from recoil. so basically irrwlevnt calc.
Well, as both these users and many more have stated, there are a lot of physical attackers who can get some guaranteed 2HKO's on Chansey. However, all these Pokemon with the exception of Mega Garchomp, Mega Heracross, and Aegislash are the only ones who can beat both Quagsire and Skarmory as well as Chansey, and all three of these Pokemon are the best wallbreakers in the tier.
I still support Chansey for A+, and I'll just list out the reasons why.
- Great special bulk, and it can take a good number of physical hits.
- Wish support allows it to heal Pokemon without reliable recovery up to full health, such as Heatran.
- Seismic Toss and Toxic mean Chansey can actually do something to opposing Pokemon.
- Amazing synergy with a ton of defensive Pokemon.
(Also, I'd like to say that I wasn't thinking when I posted the post about physical attackers being able to 2HKO Chasney. It's quite obvious that most Fighting-types and a bunch of other Pokemon can 2HKO Chansey without set-up. What I SHOULD have said is what Pokemon can beat Chansey + the common defensive walls she's paired with on stall, as their are very few Pokemon who can do that.
Also, as a response to what Toxiderp said, I wasn't talking about CB Terrakion's usage at all. I was just saying that Choice Band Terrakion isn't relevant ATM, on both the low and high ladder, as well as the tournament scene.
You really should't discount Band-Terrakion, as that's a good way to get destroyed by it when used by a competant player. Band-Terrakion is one of the few physical pokemon that can get past Skarmory, Quagsire, and even physically defensive Hippowdon after stealth rock.
Another huge problem that Chansey has is a lack of passive recovery. In order to properly serve as a wall it has to switch into special attacks in order to sponge them. However, without leftovers it takes chip damage which adds up. In a metagame as offensive as this one, its not always that easy to find time to soft-boiled or wish, and even harder to do so without giving up momentum. Everything else you said about Chansey is for the most part true, but these flaws make it enough to be placed in A- imo.
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Not nearly as common? K-B can single demolish stall teams with that, and just because something is not nearly as common, does not make it useless. and I was just listed an example of the top of my head. There are a great many more if we are factoring SR in as shown since my last post, and even without, a great deal have the chance to do so. I would post the calcs, but they have already been done.
And just cause it is not nearly common does not discredit it in any sense. If its an option, you must be prepared for it in some sense (except for Physical Gengar). I realize K-B is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, but its still worth mentioning.
Yes he can do a damn good job of walling the majority of the tier in some shape or form, but so can Hippowdon, but no one is pushing him to S Ranking (some want A+ ranking, but really, his Ranking really is A rank for me with A- being minimum).
I can whole heartedly agree for A- ranking (how its not in the A rank at all is a mystery to me) as he is still one of the best defensive mons (funny how B rank promotions seem to be nothing but Defensive promotions lately) in his typing, semi-reliable recovery, answer to absorb a great many status conditions (You could say Paralysis as he is still so slow, but that's debatable) and has offensive presence. Great stat distribution is just icing on the cake.
I don't care if it's common, it's good, and I'll use it if I want to. "most -Pokemon- use -something-" is a really bad argument, because most people have no idea what they're doing. (see: ladder) Why should it matter to me what is first on the analysis? I did not write the analysis and I don't need to use it. If you want to use it, I could care less, but don't act like something is better because it is used more of because it is first on an analysis. This is very subjective based on the Pokemon so linking to an analysis and saying that does nothing.
Ok, as if the first part wasn't bad enough, not only do you not know my rank, but you act like I have no idea what I'm doing when I obviously do. Also, "playing on the higher ladder" means nothing, because, honestly, I find any type of laddering pointless and boring. I know enough about the game without laddering and really don't care what you think about that. If I ever actually did ladder, it would be on an alt.
Someone stated this in some rmt, but Hippowdon also has some great synergy with Charzard-Y. Not only does it have good defensive synergy with Charzard-Y, resisting rock and having enough bulk to take care of most physical threats that threaten Charzard-Y, but its sandstorm cancels out Charzard's sun, allowing Charzard to always come in with a guaranteed 5 turns of sun.
Hippo for A- Rank.....AGAIN
Well I guess I might as well do my mandatory Hippowdon rant. Anyways, Hippowdon for at the VERY fucking least, A- Rank. What can I say. Pretty much everything has been said already about Hippo, and I almost feel like I'm beating a dead horse by repeating over and over again why Hippo deserves to be a higher rank, only to get shot down every time. I might as well just start comparing Hippowdon's traits with other top tier defensive Pokemon, just to prove to you how amazing Hippo is in the current metagame.
1. Does it check many top tier threats in the metagame: Yes it does. Its sole Ground-typing gives it useful resistances, an incredible Electric-type immunity, and a ton of neutralities, which is easily compensated for with its massive bulk. With proper investment, it checks Landorus-T, Thundurus, Talonflame, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Garchomp, Scizor, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Excadrill, Heatran, Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Terrakion. So in total, in checks a whopping 16 OU Pokemon, and all of them are considered top tier threats. Even Mega Venusaur struggles to get past several of these Pokemon, but not Hippowdon.
2. Does it have reliable recovery: Yes it has access to Slack Off, which makes it incredibly difficult to wear down without powerful super effective attacks or Toxic.
3. Is it often set up fodder for many sweepers: Absolutely not. Hippowdon learns Whirlwind, which keeps physical attackers from setting up on it. It also learns Rock Slide, which can be useful for just swiftly taking out the likes of Talonflame and Mega Pinsir without having to always resort to phazing. Pretty much every physical attacker listed above, cannot ever set up on Hippo as long as it has Whirlwind.
4. Does it provide good team utility: Besides the fact that it walls a huge portion of the metagame, it can also provide teams with a reliable user of Stealth Rock, as well as a phazer to keep dangerous physical sweepers from destroying your team. On top of that, Hippowdon has the coveted Sand Stream ability, which allows it to aid Sand Rush Excadrill or Sand Force Mega Garchomp in sweeping or breaking through opposing walls. Even Sand Force Hippowdon is a great boon to stall teams, because it allows you to use healing moves such as Moonlight or Synthesis on your team alongside Hippowdon without having to worry about the loss in recovery due to Sand. It just provides so much defensive momentum for teams, as well as providing a team with other forms of utility instead of just sitting there and walling.
5. Is it easy to fit onto teams: For the most part, Hippowdon can fit pretty well on a lot of teams. While it doesn't do a whole bunch for Hyper offensive teams, balanced, bulky offense, and stall really love Hippowdon because of its ability to check so many threats. Although it doesn't have the greatest offensive presence, it can still fit well on some offensive teams, because it just keeps so many sweepers from ripping apart frail offensive teams.
There's more points I could bring up, but that pretty much covered it all. I guess I could mention that Hippowdon separates itself from other walls in OU by being bulky on both sides of the spectrum (which is one of the reasons Mega Venusaur is so good). I just don't think there's any denying at this point that Hippowdon deserves to be ranked among some of the better OU walls. For fucks sake, Skarmory is A- rank, and while it does provide some great utility, Hippowdon checks a LOT more common Pokemon, and it isn't completely slaughtered by special attackers either.
I don't mean to be rude, but anyone who thinks that Hippo doesn't deserve to be considered a top OU defensive Pokemon, then they need to learn more about the meta. It's ridiculosly good, and has all the good traits of a fantastic defensive wall. Sure it has it fair share of faults, such as being completely shutdown by Taunt and heavily crippled by Toxic (although there are some really good clerics that pair very well with Hippo), positives GREATLY outweigh the negatives, which is why Hippowdon should be moved to A- rank at the very least. Of course, A rank would be better IMO, but don't wanna shoot too high at the moment.
I hope everyone that uses usage statistics is paying attention as that's a very weak argument. Just because banded Terrakion is uncommon doesn't mean you should completely discount it. And to those saying Chansey got better with the removal of Mega Lucario: it's ban made a lot of pokemon better already. Another thing is while it may be true that Chansey can switch out of a predicted knock off from lets say Bisharp, the player can just SD on your obvious switch and you would have to sack something or just get swept. To discount being vulnerable as con is ridiculous as any competent player can use that forced switch to set up.
Ok, I'd just like to point out that when I say "Not used that often", I don't mean in usage. I'm talking about how big of a threat it is to prepare for. For example, a lot of the Pokemon I'm talking about aren't just not used on the low ladder, they aren't used by people on the higher ladder, or people who play in high-level tournaments. I mean, you can't discredit Chansey for being bad by saying "This irrelevant threat beats Chnasye, so therefore Chansey is not A+ material."
I'm not claiming Chansey's unbeatable, it's far from it. It's just that, for the reason I've listed previously, I feel it deserves A+. However, all the backlash from this means I think I'll just close my argument. It seems everyone want's Chansey for A-, and honestly, I can live with that.
Take a look at all the pokemon in A+ rank. None of those pokemon are set up bait what so ever for a good majority of the meta. A- is perfectly fitting
Anyways I would like to nominate Gliscor for A-. It's typing allows it to wall a lot of physical threats in the meta, its SubToxic set is still a bitch to face, and it provides very good support for your team. Before people say it's partially outclassed by Landorus-T just remember that Gliscor has longevity over it as well as taunt and defog.
Anyways I would like to nominate Gliscor for A-. It's typing allows it to wall a lot of physical threats in the meta, its SubToxic set is still a bitch to face, and it provides very good support for your team. Before people say it's partially outclassed by Landorus-T just remember that Gliscor has longevity over it as well as taunt and defog.
Used and usage literally mean the same thing. "How big of a threat it is to prepare for" is completely different. No, a lot of things beat Chansey. No, many relevant things beat Chansey. No, the higher ladder usage, while better, does not directly correlate to viability. No, high-level tournaments are all about counterteaming/directly countering common sets as opposed to the general metagame.
Stop ignoring my previous post as well. You randomly called me out for something you don't even know and now choose to ignore it.
I will admit my wording was terribly off, an I'm sorry for that. And yes, I do agree many relevant things beat Chansey. But, there aren't many relevant things that beat Chansey + its common defensive partners, which is what I was trying to get at. I was also feel that it's unfair to say that a Pokemon isn't viable if the Pokemon('s set) that beats it is very rarely used at every level of play.
EDIT: I'd just like to add that I've dropped may argument for Chansey for A+. You and plenty of people don't feel like it deserves any higher than A-, and with all the backlash I've gotten for my argument, I think it's best that we just leave Chansey at A- for now.
Actually, I haven't mentioned at any point what rank I think Chansey should be. You just called me out on something so of course I had to reply. That being said, Chansey is a lot better in theory, and most of its partners really struggle to do much in terms of synergy. Ghosts? Now Bisharp/-insert Dark type cause most use Knock Off- will destroy you. Chansey isn't 100% useless without Eviolite, but obviously it is a nice thing to keep.
Well technically, Chansey's actually B+ at the moment, though I do think it should be moved up to A-.
I meant to say "It's best that we raise Chansey to A- for now." Sorry about that.
Sometimes getting rid of your opponent's only special wall can be a win condition. Just saying, it would be definitely worth it then.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
One thing that I'm surprised is not on the list and has not even been nominated yet is Victini. It has solid defenses and a decent defensive typing that allow it to switch into an occasional attack (such as Mega Zard-Y's sun-boosted Fire Blast), a brutal movepool that includes the coveted V-Create and Bolt Strike, and nearly unparalleled immediate power with a Choice Band. For these reasons, I think it's B Rank.
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