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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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According by that definition there is not a single good switch in to Rotom-w in the entire tier because there is nothing he cant use volt switch on that doesnt care about WoW or Hydropump. If u dont know that u clearly havent used rotom-w before. Maybe its not ur list thats wrong but ur definitions.
Regarding Heatran and Thundorus. As already mentioned Heatran clearly doesnt deserve S Rank. Yes its typing alone shuts down lots of things but its also vulnerable to 3 very common attacking types, has no recovery outside of lefties and its offensive coverage is fairly limited so no S-Rank material here.
Thundorus, i dont know. I havent used it so i cant say much about it. From the times where i faced it cant say that it was very threatening to me the worst it usualy does is twaving a sweeper.
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Heatran is great. He's such an easy pokemon to slap onto a team and cover weaknesses with. But while he's a great wall, he lacks the same ridiculous bulk and recovery of Mega Venusaur. His specs set is fantastic, but I don't feel as if that's enough to justify an S ranking. I could honestly see why you could put it in S, but I feel as if A+ is where he belongs. S rank seems a little much, considering he has no reliable recovery outside of lefties.
Thundurus-I is one of the strongest pokemon in OU right now. Prankster t-wave stops things flat, it has a great mixed set, and it has good typing. I could see a case being made for S.
Thundurus-I is one of the strongest pokemon in OU right now. Prankster t-wave stops things flat, it has a great mixed set, and it has good typing. I could see a case being made for S.
My opinions are obviously what most are saying...no, really.
Heatran isn't A+ Material--we know why. We all went through it. Lack of recovery is bad on something you'd think would get it, but it doesn't.
Thundurus-I, on the other hand, is a monster. Even with Electric-Types being immune to Paralysis (therefore also immune to Thunder Wave), the Electric Genie can definitely work around it. He can abuse Prankster with Taunt and Thunder Wave--don't forget Agility and Nasty Plot--and can still attack and live to tell the tale. Thundurus IS a touch frail, but he's not supposed to have much bulk anyways. I definitely see Thundurus-I for S.
Heatran isn't A+ Material--we know why. We all went through it. Lack of recovery is bad on something you'd think would get it, but it doesn't.
Thundurus-I, on the other hand, is a monster. Even with Electric-Types being immune to Paralysis (therefore also immune to Thunder Wave), the Electric Genie can definitely work around it. He can abuse Prankster with Taunt and Thunder Wave--don't forget Agility and Nasty Plot--and can still attack and live to tell the tale. Thundurus IS a touch frail, but he's not supposed to have much bulk anyways. I definitely see Thundurus-I for S.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
I think Heatran and Thundurus-I are right at home in A+ Rank.
Heatran really shouldn't hit S-Rank because it has very exploitable weaknesses and no reliable recovery.
Thundurus-I shouldn't move up to S-Rank because Thunder Wave no longer affects Electric types. And Rotom-W, Garchomp, Excadrill, etc are everywhere! It still has a great offensive movepool, but if we go by that, Thundurus-T pulls off pure offensive better.
However, one Pokemon that does deserve a promotion is Dragonite. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's clearly on par with Garchomp and Kyurem-B (both A+).
With Multiscale, you are almost guaranteed at least one Dragon Dance. And with Weakness Policy, getting +3 Attack and +1 Speed is extremely common. I have swept many teams with this set (1500+ ranks), and if you want me to start recording replays, I can do that.
In fact, the only things that are effective at holding Dragonite back from a sweep are: 1. Stealth Rock 2. Clefable 3. Kyurem-B if it's out before a Dragon Dance
And all of those can be Easily dealt with using just one partner: Excadrill.
Excadrill's Iron Head Annihilates Clefable and Kyurem-B. It also has Rapid Spin to spin away Rocks. And even then, Rocks aren't as common as they were in Gen 5, and with Defog being everywhere, Rocks are easier than ever to remove.
Also, as for Kyurem-B, if it doesn't hit Dragonite before a Dragon Dance or isn't holding a Scarf on the switch, it can kiss its icy ass goodbye.
Heatran really shouldn't hit S-Rank because it has very exploitable weaknesses and no reliable recovery.
Thundurus-I shouldn't move up to S-Rank because Thunder Wave no longer affects Electric types. And Rotom-W, Garchomp, Excadrill, etc are everywhere! It still has a great offensive movepool, but if we go by that, Thundurus-T pulls off pure offensive better.
However, one Pokemon that does deserve a promotion is Dragonite. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's clearly on par with Garchomp and Kyurem-B (both A+).
With Multiscale, you are almost guaranteed at least one Dragon Dance. And with Weakness Policy, getting +3 Attack and +1 Speed is extremely common. I have swept many teams with this set (1500+ ranks), and if you want me to start recording replays, I can do that.
In fact, the only things that are effective at holding Dragonite back from a sweep are: 1. Stealth Rock 2. Clefable 3. Kyurem-B if it's out before a Dragon Dance
And all of those can be Easily dealt with using just one partner: Excadrill.
Excadrill's Iron Head Annihilates Clefable and Kyurem-B. It also has Rapid Spin to spin away Rocks. And even then, Rocks aren't as common as they were in Gen 5, and with Defog being everywhere, Rocks are easier than ever to remove.
Also, as for Kyurem-B, if it doesn't hit Dragonite before a Dragon Dance or isn't holding a Scarf on the switch, it can kiss its icy ass goodbye.
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Heatran is a great pokemon, but definitely not S.
For 1, it gets no good recovery, which really sucks when you have as many resistances as he does.
2, He's sorta slow, 77 speed is nothing to write home about. It could be better, but it's pretty OK for a defensive pokemon.
3, His weaknesses are common, fighting and ground are thrown about everywhere, and Rotom-W and Conkeldurr (AV) are almost free switch-ins.
4, He does not have any good boosting moves, so if you wanna try and go offensive you usually stick with a choice item.
That said, there are a lot of things to keep him in A+. The sheer amount of resistances he has allows him to synergize very well with a lot of other pokemon, like celebi and Mega Venusaur. He can stand his own ground with powerful Fire Blasts and he even has an immunity. He's not a bad pokemon by any means, but the above 4 definitely hold him back from being S.
As far as thundy goes, damn. He's like a panic button, just prankster T-wave and boom you're safe. It's really annoying when getting rid of him is absolutely mandatory if you want to sweep, (with a few exceptions, like dnite) and just keeping him alive late-game prevents the opponent from using their win-condition, which is amazing. Honestly, his priority t-wave is just complete bull, plz nerf.
But that's not where it ends. He has about 5 legit sets he can run, each of which surprises its own counters and checks, and he's just damn annoying.
He has priority Taunt to shut down Stall and even opposing prankster Taunts, like Sableye, making him flexible too.
The only real issue he even has is his general frailty and weakness to rocks. If you do mispredict, or if the opponent decides to sack a pokemon to paralysis, chances are your thundy is dead. It's really frail and usually doesn't survive a STAB hit.
Another thing I sometimes see is that people just smack Thundy on as a primary revenge killer. While it may serve that purpose, he can only do his job once. If you want to cripple that Charizard-X that might otherwise sweep, you have to sack thundy, and that leaves your team without a revenge killer. Thus, you have to make your team generally fast or have a back-up scarfer to truly be protected against sweeps and what not. Thundy is good at giving you a false sense of security that you have an answer to sweepers, but you have to make sure you have something else fast too, otherwise you might just lose to a team with more than one sweeper.
For 1, it gets no good recovery, which really sucks when you have as many resistances as he does.
2, He's sorta slow, 77 speed is nothing to write home about. It could be better, but it's pretty OK for a defensive pokemon.
3, His weaknesses are common, fighting and ground are thrown about everywhere, and Rotom-W and Conkeldurr (AV) are almost free switch-ins.
4, He does not have any good boosting moves, so if you wanna try and go offensive you usually stick with a choice item.
That said, there are a lot of things to keep him in A+. The sheer amount of resistances he has allows him to synergize very well with a lot of other pokemon, like celebi and Mega Venusaur. He can stand his own ground with powerful Fire Blasts and he even has an immunity. He's not a bad pokemon by any means, but the above 4 definitely hold him back from being S.
As far as thundy goes, damn. He's like a panic button, just prankster T-wave and boom you're safe. It's really annoying when getting rid of him is absolutely mandatory if you want to sweep, (with a few exceptions, like dnite) and just keeping him alive late-game prevents the opponent from using their win-condition, which is amazing. Honestly, his priority t-wave is just complete bull, plz nerf.
But that's not where it ends. He has about 5 legit sets he can run, each of which surprises its own counters and checks, and he's just damn annoying.
He has priority Taunt to shut down Stall and even opposing prankster Taunts, like Sableye, making him flexible too.
The only real issue he even has is his general frailty and weakness to rocks. If you do mispredict, or if the opponent decides to sack a pokemon to paralysis, chances are your thundy is dead. It's really frail and usually doesn't survive a STAB hit.
Another thing I sometimes see is that people just smack Thundy on as a primary revenge killer. While it may serve that purpose, he can only do his job once. If you want to cripple that Charizard-X that might otherwise sweep, you have to sack thundy, and that leaves your team without a revenge killer. Thus, you have to make your team generally fast or have a back-up scarfer to truly be protected against sweeps and what not. Thundy is good at giving you a false sense of security that you have an answer to sweepers, but you have to make sure you have something else fast too, otherwise you might just lose to a team with more than one sweeper.
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I agree with Thundurus-I in S rank. Not just because of Prankster T-Wave (that's really not the main reason you should be using it) but because almost everything about it is excellent. Excellent offensive and defensive typing, immense movepool, offensive stats that allow it to go mixed easily and lure out certain pokes like Blissey and T-tar and on top of that, it has excellent speed. You can argue SR weakness and frailty, but its speed and lack of weaknesses more than make up for it.
The question is just if all of these traits warrant S rank. I think so, but feel free to argue.
The question is just if all of these traits warrant S rank. I think so, but feel free to argue.
Heatran shouldn't be moved, as said before, he still has flaws that forces you to run some kind of support to balance his weaknesses. (Be it his Ground/Fight/Water weaknesses, or his lack of reliable recovery.)
Thundurus I, on the other hand, should be moves to S, Prankester TWave is amazing, he has a good offensive presence via Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Grass Knot (Despite the nerf of the former, and the fact that Grass Knot is quite meh.), can easily grab momentum with Volt Switch, and finally has Prankster-boosting moves, enabling him to play the role of a good finisher, or to apply pressure from the first turn by setting up before the enemy can Taunt him, not to mention his nice Speed tier, he just DESERVES S Rank.
Thundurus I, on the other hand, should be moves to S, Prankester TWave is amazing, he has a good offensive presence via Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Grass Knot (Despite the nerf of the former, and the fact that Grass Knot is quite meh.), can easily grab momentum with Volt Switch, and finally has Prankster-boosting moves, enabling him to play the role of a good finisher, or to apply pressure from the first turn by setting up before the enemy can Taunt him, not to mention his nice Speed tier, he just DESERVES S Rank.
I do not think Thundurus should be S rank. Thundurus does have a great offensive and support movepool, but its problem is the dreaded 4MSS. No matter what set Thundurus is running, there will always be a set of Pokemon which wall it completely depending on the set. This by definition prevents it from doing its job consistently and thus it should not be S rank.
I don't think Heatran should be moved. It's amazing, but an extremely exploitable ground weakness and a weakness to fighting moves, paired with no recovery, make it far from perfect. Thundurus-I is S-rank quality from prankster t-wave alone, it's an easy "ruin this pokemon" button, and its naturally great speed and vicious special attacking abilities (volt switch is incredible) make it a bitch to catch.
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Sorry if I'm not supposed to post here yet because I'm new.
Heatran is an awesome pokemon but even when you give him air balloon he still has a crippling weakness fighting. Especially when mach punch is such a common priority move. all S rank pokemon resist or are immune to fighting. Having fighting for a weakness is extremely crippling he should stay A+ rank at best.
I vote for heatran for A+
Heatran is an awesome pokemon but even when you give him air balloon he still has a crippling weakness fighting. Especially when mach punch is such a common priority move. all S rank pokemon resist or are immune to fighting. Having fighting for a weakness is extremely crippling he should stay A+ rank at best.
I vote for heatran for A+
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I know this is only for thundurus-i and heatran at the moment, but the purpose of this post is to speak about the potential low quality of double checking in posts right now, and I feel like the mega venusaur debate is a very good example of many posts needing to be double calc checked and QCed before they are posted, not that there should be more rules, but I tink we need to be aware of this issue, please delete this post if you feel that this is not a good example or that the current quality of posts isn't something we need to be discussing right now.
Ok sorry guys, I was absent for part of this argument and aren't 100% caught up with every detail but I think I caught the drift, work alone is a problem for me but having paperwork to file afterwords is a big hassle, I hope you can understand, now onto my debate
I know I may have over picked on chou's slip up of saying psychic OHKOs it and stuff(we all miss stuff once and a while, I understnad) but boasting something this huge without a double check is not appropriate practice for debate.
Walls , special attackers some times beat it on the switch with shadow ball
Fails , 2 fire blast and its down to cinders , cant even win it on 1 to one Agree, but this is kinda obvious, I'm pretty sure sdef venusaur can take 1 in a crucial pinch vs low HP zard though, just a nice note
Fails , cant stop it after a dd or after damage, it even loses 1vs1 a lot of times
Roar is a viable option and leech seed sets quickly drop it's HP with repeated HP draining and EQ/Sludge Bomb
Fails miserably , its even unable to ko with sludge bomb how is supposed to switch on it A good anti venu I must say, but never will be as solid as something like kyurem-b due to it's ability to not take roar or sludge bomb well
Fails ,earth power does a fuck load as well the super common psychic, gd wont ko Earth power does not do "a fuck ton" :/ howeer psychic variants beat it if you manage the not rock polish on a roar or something stupid, also don't forget HP ice takes away from your ability to deal damage to things like gliscor and defensive dnite/bulky ddnite
walls , his not the best on doing that though because of the WoW exposure True facts
Fails the lead one gets 2 layers before you say cancer, the offensive.. do i even need to say ? I feel lead is a bit of an odd case due to it being able to be roared, spinned and defogged, but I still do agree
Fails miserably lol wut
Fails , banded, mixed , under sand , or DD sets from the mega one beat it on the switch, gd wont 3hko this guy, it even loses many times 1v1 First of all, Garchomp doesn't learn DD, I should know, I'm a HUGE chomp fan, second of all, calcs:
Fails , terravolt is the reason why True facts
walls , those weird np - hp flying sets destroy him though NP-HP flying is a rare bread but whatever
Fails Classic dd/band and sub sets and pretty much every set bypass it because of the lack of offensive presence There's this thing called roar, use it
walls , well it struggles to do so , people are starting to use extrasensory a lot lately
walls, it wont stop it from using puddles though so its not the best check around. Puddles?
Fails , because it cant scratch it Roar or EQ are very common
Fails the banded one can u-turn on it a million times , the sd ones fodder it like there is not tomorrow Again, HP fire or roar, USE IT
Fails (it doesn't wall consistently ) The classic banded ones beat it even on 1vs1 at turn 3, don't make me show you the battle algorithm , it cant stop it after a dd of its most common set, the mega one after a dance , 3 turns of consecutive stone edge hits are possible and happen most of the time 80%^3=51% (rough estimation ) LIES
Fails
Fails miserably , lati@s rape it Psyshock yeah
Fails the mega ones with the extremely common ice fang beat it because of Mold breaker wtf these do like 49% MAX
Walls , not that its hard to wall keldeo outside of rain , rain boosted hydro pumps 2hko though Again, lies
Fails miserably lol wut
Walls , its really good that there is something that perfectly wall this guy
Walls , the same with azumarill Psychic pops it unfortunately
Walls it walls anything thats not sd , it wont stop it from using rocks though
Fails , don't try walling the wall Click the handy button that has roar on it
Walls , its pretty good at it
Fails , it loses most of the times , the recoil some times kills both , that is not the case with most not banded sets though
The lists were pretty similar so I felt doing the latter list since it has commentary would be easier to show
Ok sorry guys, I was absent for part of this argument and aren't 100% caught up with every detail but I think I caught the drift, work alone is a problem for me but having paperwork to file afterwords is a big hassle, I hope you can understand, now onto my debate
to my debate:Since we're judging Venusaur as a Defensive threat, we want to look at its ability to switch into and reliably beat Pokemon in the top threats of the Meta.
This is how I would approach the list:
O - Is a good switch in and can reliably win
X - Is a good switch in but has a good chance of losing or ending up in the worse position
XX - is NOT a good switch-in and loses OR cannot gain an advantageous position easily
This is using ANY reasonable Venusaur set, because the idea is the ability to tailor a defensive Pokemon to match certain threats is good strategy.
However, it's also assuming ANY legitimate set on the target Pokemon as well (with Extrasensory Greninja and SD Lando-T being certainly legitimate)
Here's this list
S Rank:
Aegislash - XX (Venusaur is NOT a good switch-in to Aegislash, and cannot gain an advantage against it easily)
Charizard - XX
Charizard - XX
Pinsir - XX
Venusaur - X
A Rank:
A+ Rank
Deoxys-S - XX
Garchomp / Garchomp (Mega) - XX
Heatran - X (must be mega evolved and specially defensive with EQ)
Kyurem-B - XX
Landorus-I - XX
Landorus-T - X
Manaphy - X
Rotom-W - X
Talonflame - XX
Thundurus-I - X
A Rank
Azumarill - O
Bisharp - X
Conkeldurr - O
Deoxys-D - XX
Dragonite - XX
Excadrill - X
Gengar - XX
Greninja - X
Gyarados / Gyarados (Mega) - X
Keldeo - O
Latias - XX
Latios - XX
Mamoswine - XX
Mandibuzz - X
Mawile (Mega) - X
Scizor / Scizor (Mega) - XX
Terrakion - X
Tyranitar / Tyranitar (Mega) - XX
A- Rank
Clefable - O
Skarmory - XX
O - 4 (3 A, 1 A-, 0 S/A+)
X - 13
XX - 21
Not a pretty picture to say the least.
Interestingly, if we do the same thing for Rotom-W
S Rank:
Aegislash - XX
Charizard - XX
Charizard - XX
Pinsir - O
Venusaur - XX
A Rank:
A+ Rank
Deoxys-S - XX
Garchomp / Garchomp (Mega) - X
Heatran - O
Kyurem-B - XX
Landorus-I - O (Must be Specially Defensive)
Landorus-T - O
Manaphy - XX
Rotom-W - X
Talonflame - O
Thundurus-I - XX
A Rank
Azumarill - X
Bisharp - X
Conkeldurr - XX
Deoxys-D - XX
Dragonite - X
Excadrill - XX
Gengar - XX
Greninja - O (must be Specially defensive to do so)
Gyarados / Gyarados (Mega) - O / XX (flawless counter to regular Gyara, gets f'd up by Mega)
Keldeo - X
Latias - XX
Latios - XX
Mamoswine - O
Mandibuzz - O
Mawile (Mega) - X
Scizor / Scizor (Mega) - O
Terrakion - XX
Tyranitar / Tyranitar (Mega) - XX
A- Rank
Clefable - XX
Skarmory - O
So judging Rotom-W similarly-- well, it's good and bad.
O - 11
X - 8
XX - 19
Rotom has a similar number of XX, but generally has a much better report card when looking at defensive prowess this way.
Ok come the fuck on can people stop saying something is true without checking their calcs or experienceTypical defenisve venausar:
S-A is a representative sample
Walls , special attackers some times beat it on the switch with shadow ball
Fails , 2 fire blast and its down to cinders , cant even win it on 1 to one
Fails , cant stop it after a dd or after damage, it even loses 1vs1 a lot of times
Fails miserably , its even unable to ko with sludge bomb how is supposed to switch on it
Fails ,earth power does a fuck load as well the super common psychic, gd wont ko
walls , his not the best on doing that though because of the WoW exposure
Fails the lead one gets 2 layers before you say cancer, the offensive.. do i even need to say ?
Fails miserably
Fails , banded, mixed , under sand , or DD sets from the mega one beat it on the switch, gd wont 3hko this guy, it even loses many times 1v1
Fails , terravolt is the reason why
walls , those weird np - hp flying sets destroy him though
Fails Classic dd/band and sub sets and pretty much every set bypass it because of the lack of offensive presence
walls , well it struggles to do so , people are starting to use extrasensory a lot lately
walls, it wont stop it from using puddles though so its not the best check around.
Fails , because it cant scratch it
Fails the banded one can u-turn on it a million times , the sd ones fodder it like there is not tomorrow
Fails (it doesn't wall consistently ) The classic banded ones beat it even on 1vs1 at turn 3, don't make me show you the battle algorithm , it cant stop it after a dd of its most common set, the mega one after a dance , 3 turns of consecutive stone edge hits are possible and happen most of the time 80%^3=51% (rough estimation )
Fails
Fails miserably , lati@s rape it
Fails the mega ones with the extremely common ice fang beat it because of Mold breaker
Walls , not that its hard to wall keldeo outside of rain , rain boosted hydro pumps 2hko though
Fails miserably
Walls , its really good that there is something that perfectly wall this guy
Walls , the same with azumarill
Walls it walls anything thats not sd , it wont stop it from using rocks though
Fails , don't try walling the wall
Walls , its pretty good at it
Fails , it loses most of the times , the recoil some times kills both , that is not the case with most not banded sets though
thats more like less than 30% of wall-able pokemon ,
earthquake surprise sets are bad and dont change much ,baloon or bulky heatran still take an earthquake , offensive sets cant be walled and defensive ones can still easily beat it most of the times , i have the battle algorithm ready
bisharp still beats it after a sd , so venausar cant wall it -stop it
hp fire is even worse it pretty much requires a offensive spread forcing him lose many of the pokemon that it checks and even then ,most scizor still beat it with +2 bug bite and hp fire is unable to 1hko back
, it kills skarmory after about 10 turns of roost stall thats the most it can get after genesect ban.
being a fun boy blurs perception
I know I may have over picked on chou's slip up of saying psychic OHKOs it and stuff(we all miss stuff once and a while, I understnad) but boasting something this huge without a double check is not appropriate practice for debate.
Roar is a viable option and leech seed sets quickly drop it's HP with repeated HP draining and EQ/Sludge Bomb
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 132-156 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 216-254 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 132-156 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 216-254 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 127-150 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 192-229 (52.7 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 144-172 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 144-172 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 160-188 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 68-84 (18.6 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 170-204 (46.7 - 56%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 170-204 (46.7 - 56%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 208-246 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 157-187 (43.1 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
12 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 20.8% chance to 3HKO
12 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 60-73 (16.4 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 157-187 (43.1 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
12 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 20.8% chance to 3HKO
12 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 60-73 (16.4 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 133-157 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 195-231 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 195-231 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 171-202 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 148-176 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 148-176 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The lists were pretty similar so I felt doing the latter list since it has commentary would be easier to show
With Thundurus, I see a great typing shared with another epic legendary (Zapdos obviously, not that Rodent...) and a bit more in line with the traditional Electric type more than Zapdos by being a fast assaulter. The only issue that hinders Thundurus if anything, is his coverage.
HP was one of the most used moves last gen to help patch up in-perfect coverage (used by electric types, a lot if it isn't obvious) and yet, this gen it sadly got hampered to the chagrin of many. With Base 60 power, it is almost little more than a tickle to some things. With Nasty Plot + Life Orb, he is able to circumvent this, but its adds to his frailty, thus making him last less than anything (yet this should not be disregarded as he easily destroys stuff faster than they him, just more of an observation).
What truly sets him apart from a fellow utility Pokémon in Rotom-W (used here for electric typing being shared and how they are both known for helping the team out), is that of his ability: Prankster. This gives him so much utility that its almost criminal. fastest Taunt ever (outside of Whimsicott)? Check. Stop them sweepers from getting faster? Check. Whatever else you would want? Sure.
If anything sets him to S Rank, it may be the combination of his damage power, and his ability, Prankster (Speed too I guess).
HP was one of the most used moves last gen to help patch up in-perfect coverage (used by electric types, a lot if it isn't obvious) and yet, this gen it sadly got hampered to the chagrin of many. With Base 60 power, it is almost little more than a tickle to some things. With Nasty Plot + Life Orb, he is able to circumvent this, but its adds to his frailty, thus making him last less than anything (yet this should not be disregarded as he easily destroys stuff faster than they him, just more of an observation).
What truly sets him apart from a fellow utility Pokémon in Rotom-W (used here for electric typing being shared and how they are both known for helping the team out), is that of his ability: Prankster. This gives him so much utility that its almost criminal. fastest Taunt ever (outside of Whimsicott)? Check. Stop them sweepers from getting faster? Check. Whatever else you would want? Sure.
If anything sets him to S Rank, it may be the combination of his damage power, and his ability, Prankster (Speed too I guess).
Fails , cant stop it after a dd or after damage, it even loses 1vs1 a lot of times
Roar is a viable option and leech seed sets quickly drop it's HP with repeated HP draining and EQ/Sludge Bomb
Fails the lead one gets 2 layers before you say cancer, the offensive.. do i even need to say ? I feel lead is a bit of an odd case due to it being able to be roared, spinned and defogged, but I still do agree
Fails Classic dd/band and sub sets and pretty much every set bypass it because of the lack of offensive presence There's this thing called roar, use it
Fails , because it cant scratch it Roar or EQ are very common
Fails the banded one can u-turn on it a million times , the sd ones fodder it like there is not tomorrow Again, HP fire or roar, USE IT
Fails , don't try walling the wall Click the handy button that has roar on it
Ok, I feel the need to intervene here. First off, you say that
So you suggest 3 moves. EQ, Sludge Bomb, and Roar.Fails , cant stop it after a dd or after damage, it even loses 1vs1 a lot of times
Roar is a viable option and leech seed sets quickly drop it's HP with repeated HP draining and EQ/Sludge Bomb
After this you talk about HP fire and leech seed. Thats five moves. It also needs grass moves to beat manaphy, so six moves. Synthesis? Thats seven moves. And don't say that
Mmmkay, lets look at usage statistics.
+----------------------------------------+ | Venusaur | +----------------------------------------+
Moves | | Giga Drain 79.500% | | Sludge Bomb 73.670% | | Synthesis 56.589% | | Leech Seed 49.534% | | Sleep Powder 35.197% | | Earthquake 23.225% | | Hidden Power Fire 20.803% | | Growth 8.436% | | Toxic 7.920% | | Energy Ball 5.371% | | Roar 4.350% | | Power Whip 3.856% | | Knock Off 3.741% | | SolarBeam 3.517% | | Substitute 3.256% | | Protect 3.017% | | Other 18.017%
Moves | | Giga Drain 79.500% | | Sludge Bomb 73.670% | | Synthesis 56.589% | | Leech Seed 49.534% | | Sleep Powder 35.197% | | Earthquake 23.225% | | Hidden Power Fire 20.803% | | Growth 8.436% | | Toxic 7.920% | | Energy Ball 5.371% | | Roar 4.350% | | Power Whip 3.856% | | Knock Off 3.741% | | SolarBeam 3.517% | | Substitute 3.256% | | Protect 3.017% | | Other 18.017%
Yep, thats very common. 4%.
I'm just saying, Venusaur is a good pokemon, but a terrible case of 4MSS. Wanna beat Scizor? use HP fire. Wanna beat Dragonite? Use roar (lol 4%)
the point is Venusaur can't do everything, therefore both the lists made are flawed.
If your opponent switches Garchomp or Excadrill into Thunder Wave, you can just OHKO them (Stealth Rock has to be up to get Chomp) with HP Ice and Focus Blast respectively. He even has a pretty good chance to 2HKO physically defensive Rotom-W with Thunderbolt. So nope.
Also, speed > power in this case, so offensive Thundurus-I is usually better than -T unless it's running Agility.
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I believe the point OiawesomeDG is trying to make is that Venusaur can potentially deal with these threats, even if it can't deal with all at once, and as such the first list saying that it outright loses is wrong because a simple move change gives Venusaur the upper hand. This versatility is in Venusaur's favor, you have to establish it's moveset before you can safely send in a check, and you can tailor Venu to fulfill many different roles.
Also usage statistics are, at the very best, an extremely unreliable method of establishing common moves: there are so many bad players that the statistics are often skewed. More experienced battlers will understand the value of moves not used extremely often, so you'll see Roar and company more higher on the ladder.
To get back on topic...
I can see Thundurus in S. It's an offensive pokemon with exceptional utility and variety, and though it's movepool isn't as great as it could be (having to rely on Hidden Power sucks), it's more then adequate. It's low defenses are Thundurus's main flaw, but as taking hits isn't really it's role anyway that frailty is acceptable. It isn't quite the overwhelming presence you would expect from an S rank sweeper, but it's added utility helps differentiate it and it's power is still more then enough for most things.
Because they aren't viable Pokemon, and thus should not be discussed in a viability ranking thread.
Florges: Outclassed by Sylveon 99% of the time.
Arcanine: Outclassed by Heatran, Darmanitan, and Entei 99% of the time.
Donphan: Outclassed by Excadrill 99% of the time.
Because arguments based off of opinion are not allowed, and those based on facts and numbers are. And when it comes to their roles in the meta-game, it is usually heavily based off of personal opinions and preferences. So, to stave off any further slap fights and name calling, we grew up and said, 'Well fuck that shit'.
Stop. If you're paying attention, you'll know that it's been stated twice already that we are only discussing Heatran and Thundurus-I right now, not Blissey and Chansey. Just save your opinions until it's time to discuss them and you'll get a much better response.
Please everyone, do not discuss Blissey and Chansey right now. There will be a time to discuss them later.
Maybe this is because I primarily play stall, but I don't see how priority Thunder Wave makes Thundurus S-rank. It allows Thundurus to serve as a emergency check to many offensive threats, but being an emergency check doesn't make something S-rank. If it is running T-Wave, it is probably not running Nasty Plot which means it won't be sweeping since its power is underwhelming without any boosts. Chansey, Clefable, and Mega Venusaur can wall pretty much every set, and Latias, Celebi, Gastrodon, Tyranitar, Quagsire, Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn and others can stop sets depending on what moves Thundurus is running. Most good teams carry a status absorber to deal with T-wave; Conkeldurr and Chansey are two examples of Pokemon which can counter Thundurus which do not really care about paralysis. Thundurus's versatility is diminished by the fact that it is still limited no matter which set it runs. The reason things like Aegislash, Charizard-X, and Mega Pinsir are S-rank is because they can do a lot of damage to a majority of OU with a single moveset where usually the choice of the fourth move is just a luxury to get past a subset of the Pokemon that the first three moves cannot deal with. There is no combination of four moves on Thundurus which allows it to compare to the aforementioned S-rank threats. In short, Thundurus lacks raw power, and its variety of coverage moves does not change the fact that many of them are subpar. Thundurus just doesn't have enough offensive or supporting ability to be S-rank.
Note to Moderators: I think it would be a good idea to continue to discuss 2-5 Pokemon at a time instead of opening entire rankings of Pokemon at a time for discussion in order to keep this thread less chaotic.
Note to Moderators: I think it would be a good idea to continue to discuss 2-5 Pokemon at a time instead of opening entire rankings of Pokemon at a time for discussion in order to keep this thread less chaotic.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Venusaur's sprite is in A instead of A+. EDIT: That was fixed.
And ok, now that we're on the topic of A ranks, as I've said, Dragonite deserves to be in A+ with Kyurem-B and Garchomp. With the combination of Multiscale, Weakness Policy, immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock being much easier to deal with, getting Dragonite to +3 Attack and +1 Speed is extremely easy, and is arguably the best setup sweeper in OU.
Here's a replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-90108890
Notice how he turned a very bad situation into a a late-game sweep.
- Status