It's funny that the outcry for a change in vote supermajority is happening because Kyurem didn't get banned, because if it was 50% it would've gotten banned LOL. If it got banned initially then I think this outcry wouldn't have happened in this thread. Just my outlook :3
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Metagame Views From The Council
- Thread starter njnp
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Hi fam, my point was chances of tera as a mechanic no longer being in the tier at all is slim. We of course are aware of the support for tiering action and will continue to monitor it. However, we should focus on tiering with the mindset the status quo will not change as last time we had a discussion on how to handle tera without outright banning it nothing conclusive came out of it from the community. I would love for us to look at terablast but it's extremely hard to justify banning a move as opposed to a Pokemon.
It's not exactly/just Kyurem.
It was the third suspect where 60% x 50% +1 made a difference in not changing something in the metagame; Terastal and Kingambit too.
People are wondering about whether a larger margin is actually needed rather than a majority, because at the end of the day the majority of the community that put in the effort and got requirements won the battle, but lost the war.
On the other hand, changing the rule mid-gen might not be the best way to go, but I'm really happy to see that Finchinator is willing to raise this issue for the next gen, which means... Finchinator Gen 10 OUTL confirmed (?) ! Congratulations!
I know that it was basically bookended, but I do like the discussion on the margins. Personally, I see 60% as reasonably sound, but hearing of lower tiers not ascribing to this rule, 55% sounds like more than a feasible compromise going into gen 10. A completely simple majority just sounds off to me without being able to explain it fully.
a bit late to this particular conversation, but i'd like to comment on booster energy. i think that banning booster energy is a bad idea and would barely change anything. i'll run down the list of paradox mons and explain why:
not broken, doesn't always run booster, and has been almost singlehandedly holding this godforsaken tier together since day 1
not broken, never runs booster (or anything for that matter—no one here uses it)
not broken and its only niche is in sun, where it doesn't have to run booster
broken as fuck no matter what items are or aren't banned
a very based choice, but definitely not broken. i don't think it's even that good with booster—band or boots are generally the better choice in my opinion
not broken. i don't think it runs booster either but i can't say for sure off the top of my head because i haven't actually seen it in a battle since like spring of last year
now we come to an actually contentious one. i'll admit that booster energy played, and continues to play, a large role in roaring moon's brokenness (yes, i think it's still broken) thanks to acrobatics. however, i don't think that's all there is to it. it's still a fantastic setup sweeper (or a monstrous breaker in the sun with band) even in the absence of booster energy, and the loss of the item only gives it a few more answers. i don't know whether it would continue to be broken without booster, but for now let's assume it wouldn't be
never needed booster, its best sets have always been in sun. i don't even think it's broken, but it's obscenely strong and some people have pointed to it as a problem
sometimes runs booster, but its best sets are also in sun. i don't think losing booster would limit it enough to keep it out of ubers
another very iffy one. i'm still on the fence about whether or not raging bolt is even broken or not, and it definitely likes booster energy a lot, so a ban on booster would definitely move this mon out of the "problematic" zone, at least for me personally. or that's what i think right now, anyway. so the argument actually has somewhat of a point for this and moon, which i'll get to addressing further down
not broken, trash outside of rain. archskewda are carrying this mon on their backs, just ban arch
stupid broken, but never even ran booster. it always ran specs or boots instead because it was a fantastic offensive pivot and booster doesn't really work for pivots
not broken. unsure what the best item for it is, but for some reason i have doubt that it's booster
lmao
fell off super hard due to having to compete with volc, among other reasons. i don't consider it problematic with booster right now, and probably not any time in the future of the gen either unless a lot of stuff gets banned
double lmao
it runs booster energy a lot, but it still has plenty of sets outside of that. be that as it may, i don't think it's a problem anymore, with or without the item
more like iron leaves the tier and never returns. this thing sucks
a very strong form of speed control that heavily benefits from booster energy and would become much worse if the item were banned, but the problem is… it just isn't broken
also not broken
I want to start by saying that I agree with your overall metagame analysis of the current meta being similar to RPS of HO>Glowking BO>Stall>HO.
This isn't something we should be embracing though. The fact that we are comparing SV OU to RPS should be a bloodsoaked red flag on fire. Compare these two games in a bo1 format for a second.
On one hand, you have SV OU, a metagame which will always have some inherent uncompetitive factors (full paras, crits, freezes, etc) but nevertheless we strive to make it as competitive as possible, as SKILL-BASED as possible. On the other hand, we have RPS Bo1, a literal dice roll, as far from competitive gaming as you can get. Why are we comparing these two things, and why are we acting like this is a good thing???
I want to be clear that there is some skill involved in preparing for your opponent on a given week and deciding to select a certain team for that opponent. MU fishing is not blindly done, you do need to make decisions that depend on your metagame knowledge.
However, we should be aiming to minimize the importance of MU in this tier. Player Skill should be the largest determining factor of what decides the victor of a match. Every ban has been in service of this ideal. Your intricate and accurate description of the metagame ecosystem is ultimately an ecosystem of MU fishing, and it's an ecosystem that we should not feel compelled to preserve in any way. I do not want my games to be largely won on preview because I hoped and guessed my opponent wouldn't bring sun and I loaded stall or whatever. That would not be a satisfying win.
Obviously skill is important to win even now, and we cannot eliminate MU fishing altogether. There are inherent strengths and weaknesses to every style that will lend advantages and disadvantages, no matter how many mons we ban. But MU fishing is never something we should embrace, preserve, or aspire for. I hope we can make enough bans to get as far away as possible from RPS, and if you're here to play a competitive game where the more skilled player wins, I hope you would agree.
Every option at your disposal is an option your opponent can use too, and if you can't cover it all, then you start MU fishing. Too many options and too much diversity is going to exacerbate this even more, causing MU to be way more important than it should be in a competitive game. You don't want to go too far in the other direction either, otherwise all teams are gonna look the same, and the meta gets stale+unfun. You gotta strike the right balance, and tons of players right now think that we have too much to prepare for and MU is too important. If we have too many options, then bans must follow, and hopefully we can strike that desired balance.
I think sun is genuinely more problematic than booster since it makes a lot more of the past Paradoxes more broken or push them enough into broken or potentially broken territory to where taking action on sun feels like a better option since it could potentially preserve more pokemon than action on booster would, and that sun has been insanely good all gen, snd honestly feels too good due to multiple sun abusers that are completely busted in sun and ones that can be busted in the right matchups like iron motha bit late to this particular conversation, but i'd like to comment on booster energy. i think that banning booster energy is a bad idea and would barely change anything. i'll run down the list of paradox mons and explain why:
so the only actually problematic elements of the meta right now that a booster energy ban would solve are roaring moon and maybe raging bolt. everything else either isn't a problem or is a problem for reasons outside of booster energy. you can make a case for valiant or boulder but i don't think either of those cases are very strong. why would we ban something that's only breaking one or two mons and fine on a host of others?
Wouldn't be opposed to a Booster Energy ban, but imo we'd need to re-evaluate a fair number of faster offensive threats such as Deo-S, Dragapult (which is already on the cusp of being overwhelming imo), and Zamazenta. I do agree with the general point that it is arguably the main reason mons like Roaring Moon or Raging Bolt feel so overwhelming to face, but I wouldn't exactly call other users such as Walking Wake, Iron Crown, or Great Tusk super busted abuser of the item, even it does let them sweep every now and then.
I think there is more merit on action against sun for that reason as more of the Paradoxes feel overwhelming on sun than using booster since booster has more opportunity cost due to taking up an item slot.(Also pincurchin sucks lmao)
I completely agree that Booster Energy ban would be a massive overcorrection. Booster Energy helps at most 3-4 paradox mons consistently. It's not even used by most of the paradox mons, let alone being broken.
The most problematic booster energy user is Roaring Moon, so we should be suspect testing the most problematic booster energy mons first. And after 2-3 bans, if it still seems problematic, then we can ban the item and bring the banned mons back. I highly doubt booster will be an issue if Moon, Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt is banned.
Booster energy is not inherently broken or uncompetitive, it's abused by a handful of broken mons who would still be great/broken even without booster. Banning of booster will unnecessarily take a healthy item from a dozen+ mons for no reason.
The most problematic booster energy user is Roaring Moon, so we should be suspect testing the most problematic booster energy mons first. And after 2-3 bans, if it still seems problematic, then we can ban the item and bring the banned mons back. I highly doubt booster will be an issue if Moon, Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt is banned.
Booster energy is not inherently broken or uncompetitive, it's abused by a handful of broken mons who would still be great/broken even without booster. Banning of booster will unnecessarily take a healthy item from a dozen+ mons for no reason.
I think Booster Energy is something we can assess at a later point, but I do not feel that it is currently noteworthy as being something that makes Pokemon broken.
I do not know what the tier should do or pursue, because it feels like there are two major camps right now on the tier's identity, and that means that any Suspect as is will fail IMO.
My faith in the Archaludon Suspect Test started to fade pretty quickly as many, many of the posts on the thread turned to "this is not the thing we should suspect", even from people who I know do in fact get reqs. And I do not have faith that if you picked any Suspect target right now, that it would not get a similar result. I feel that any Suspect right now will lead to a 55-45 situation, with people hanging on to the status quo, as there is a camp who truly wants the broken-checks-broken to stay. It feels like there is a revolving cycle of hated Pokemon, and by the time the suspect is underway, people are changing their minds. I feel that this focus on trying to find a Bloodmoon-esque target is pointless; most Pokemon that get suspect tested and banned are not as broken as Bloodmoon, I am sorry. There is no clean "this is clearly the most broken of all-time and banning this solves the tier" Pokemon, not even Bloodmoon was that, because after that ban the tier still wasn't good.
So, if people are just gonna keep voting this way, what can you really do about it? Genuinely, because I don't really have any solution. I am just stating what I perceive as a problem, and I will continue to play oldgens like Gen 6 OU more as I hope and pray that Gen 9 OU becomes a tier I do want to grind someday.
I do not know what the tier should do or pursue, because it feels like there are two major camps right now on the tier's identity, and that means that any Suspect as is will fail IMO.
My faith in the Archaludon Suspect Test started to fade pretty quickly as many, many of the posts on the thread turned to "this is not the thing we should suspect", even from people who I know do in fact get reqs. And I do not have faith that if you picked any Suspect target right now, that it would not get a similar result. I feel that any Suspect right now will lead to a 55-45 situation, with people hanging on to the status quo, as there is a camp who truly wants the broken-checks-broken to stay. It feels like there is a revolving cycle of hated Pokemon, and by the time the suspect is underway, people are changing their minds. I feel that this focus on trying to find a Bloodmoon-esque target is pointless; most Pokemon that get suspect tested and banned are not as broken as Bloodmoon, I am sorry. There is no clean "this is clearly the most broken of all-time and banning this solves the tier" Pokemon, not even Bloodmoon was that, because after that ban the tier still wasn't good.
So, if people are just gonna keep voting this way, what can you really do about it? Genuinely, because I don't really have any solution. I am just stating what I perceive as a problem, and I will continue to play oldgens like Gen 6 OU more as I hope and pray that Gen 9 OU becomes a tier I do want to grind someday.
I genuinely want the council just to say "fuck it" and quickban a lot of problematic mons so we can stop getting caught at this impass. Something needs to happen in this meta because right now it is a pile of dogshit and it seems like nothing is going to get banned.
I realise that this will never happen because 1. It would be a huge breach of the council's power and 2. Would get massive amounts of backlash. But let a boy dream, okay?
Arch will 100% be banned. All you need to do is look at the voter ID thread to see the sheer number of voters making memes about it eventually getting the boot lmao. Most of the discussion thread is pro-ban as well (at least the voters are).
With Kyurem, there was a fair deal of uncertainty on whether it was broken (even from players who I've talked to that voted ban). This same level of uncertainty is clearly not the case with Archaludon, where a majority of voters want it gone (based on the threads + people I've talked to on discord anyways). I am quite confident that it will be getting an 80%+ majority ban vote unless a poster / voter like CTC, Vert, or Storm Zone start a movement to keep the GOAT in the tier.
If we aren’t going to address Tera again and insist on testing everything wrong one by one, is the kokoloko method still on the table at least?
It might not have been worth doing when first brought up, but now??
Surely it has more merit in this mess of a current meta.
It might not have been worth doing when first brought up, but now??
Surely it has more merit in this mess of a current meta.
as it is right now, i strongly support kokoloko, but only for metas with a relatively short time limit on them—basically anything before the "final product". pre-home, home, and dlc1 would have massively benefited from kokoloko tiering being implemented. but the final meta of a gen—in this case, dlc2—has a lot more time to develop. i think being patient is generally the right move, to give meta trends time to emerge, evolve, and potentially fade. be that as it may, the kyurem suspect's result has shaken my trust in the community's ability to identify and remove broken mons. if the current suspect fails as well, i'll be advocating for kokoloko tiering to be implemented in this meta and all future ones
It is insane how we have got tons of broken set-up sweepers and mons that can put up immediate pressure roaming in the tier.
It also can't help that Tera exists. I hate the fact that every interaction feels like a 50/50 already, because you have to consider the fact that whether the opponent's Pokemon will tera, and what Tera type that mon runs. Sure, you can "predict" the trend, but it doesn't mean you can always have a full grasp of the situation, since it may not change to something you'd expect. For example, what if I don't turn Roaring Moon into Flying, and instead, Fairy? That would make any attempt of revenge killing with Ice Shard futile if Moon is healthy enough. Do I Thunder Wave is Volcarona, or it will Tera Ground to Quiver Dance? Those are just some of the few examples.
Prediction should be a reward for good plays, not something you have to do every single turn because one slip puts you in big, big disadvantage.
It also can't help that Tera exists. I hate the fact that every interaction feels like a 50/50 already, because you have to consider the fact that whether the opponent's Pokemon will tera, and what Tera type that mon runs. Sure, you can "predict" the trend, but it doesn't mean you can always have a full grasp of the situation, since it may not change to something you'd expect. For example, what if I don't turn Roaring Moon into Flying, and instead, Fairy? That would make any attempt of revenge killing with Ice Shard futile if Moon is healthy enough. Do I Thunder Wave is Volcarona, or it will Tera Ground to Quiver Dance? Those are just some of the few examples.
Prediction should be a reward for good plays, not something you have to do every single turn because one slip puts you in big, big disadvantage.
Yes this ^. Booster energy has the big handicap of being a one and done item, so you will have to be pretty damn sure your paradox mon coming in is going to make good use of the boost before it is forced to switch out or just going for game.
I would most certainly be in favour of a roaring moon test especially before the other two dragons if they ever even need one. Moon did deserve a chance in the meta again with the introduction of new and old Pokémon that could handle him more than previously but it does seem at this point a suspect test would not go amiss. His ability to abuse both terra and booster energy while not even having to heavily rely on them to be potent unlike several other notable pokemon such as serperior allows him to fly through teams with acrobats terra flying booster activated madness being particularly potent.
there’s no way people are actually talking about 10+ bans what happened to just getting good at the game
10+ bans is overboard, I don’t think the tier needs this many to create a balanced tier.
The reason there is such a panic rn is because the meta is in a state where wins are determined by matchups. Of course skill still plays a big role, but the tier is polarizing with so many threats to account for that its easier to try to play a team with a better matchup than to play around it. This is why there was so much Stall and Wogre offense teams.
The same can be said for BW, especially before the Gem ban. You run Sand because it gives you the best matchup into Rain, but if you run Sand then you’re opening yourself up to HO, and if you run HO, you get blasted by Keldeo and friends. Gems were a big part of the reason for this and Archaludon rn is triggering the same effect.
Because of how polarizing it is, you pretty much run Stall, HO with SD Superpower Wogre, or your own weather because only they could consistently answer Rain without needing multiple team-slots for one archetype. Even then Arch has been running EQ or Tera Dragon to blast past it.
You could argue keeping Arch grants us a bulky steel type that can click rocks and check Gambit + Weavile. However you rarely see Arch outside of rain and most players run Heatran for that role who also has the benefit of checking the ghosts.
I also see no benefit of keeping Roaring Moon. It just adds another cheesy setup sweeper, and what? Speed control on Sun teams? As if Sun doesn’t have several options for that.
Anyone claiming that banning any of these massive threats will strengthen Stall should realize people are running Stall because of these threats.
The next step after Arch should be to suspect Roaring Moon and re-test Kyurem. Also changing the ban criteria to 55% votes would be a nice QoL change. 60% is a bit much and 50% is too low, 55% is a good sweetspot for future votes, either this gen or Gen 10.
Yeah not going to happen this time, sorry.
So talking about surveys, could there be something on the survey to potentially entice people who fell out of love with and stopped playing sv ou to fill them out? Like something like a push for players who haven't played in a while and people being able to talk about why they stopped playing and providing their reasoning for it. I think doing those things would drive the next survey engagement up by doing these things, as it would get people who stopped playing sv to consider filling out the survey
Survey retention rates are quite high (especially relative to our other sample, which is last generation). I think that the amount of people who truly stopped engaging with SV OU -- the flagship metagame that is all over -- is overstated. I also think information about surveys is spread sufficiently enough to where people who feel strongly about Tera will know and respond anyway -- it is all over PS, Discord, Twitter, forums, etc.
Why would you want people who stopped playing the tier to fill out the survey? The entire point of the survey is to assess the active playerbase's opinion on the meta. If we entice people who don't play the tier anymore to fill out the survey, all they'll do it skew the results negatively due to not having a good grasp of the meta, and thus not correctly rank threats.
I do understand that only currently playing players should be acknowledged for suspect stuff and how the meta feels though and that should not change
Maybe putting out a separate survey for people who fell out of love with and stopped engaging with the meta could work, as it could also provide insight into what drives players away and what players do not like, because thinking about it now, that kind of stuff would need its own survey for players who stopped playing sv OU and why they stopped, and what would encourage people to come back
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Reading through all the posts and I think there are a good number of well constructed posts. A few comments:
I think NJNP's initial post and CTC's post are both great and intelligent; I almost agree with both despite them saying opposite things. I think that there is a lot of broken stuff that exists in the meta but thankfully it does somewhat feel checked by other broken things. Very much a broken checks broken meta. However I do think that hinges on a particular loose piece of string, which is when the first pokemon gets banned (archaludon is my guess) it may lead to a slope of plenty of other mons being banned since the broken is no longer there to quite check the broken. I love that rain is viable for what seems like the first time in gen 9 and proto-sun teams aren't swarming the ladder quite as badly anymore. I feel like Sun and Rain have the tools to punish one another which feels really balanced to me. However, rain and archaludon itself feel very powerful and may be too broken for the tier. That convo is more for the suspect thread but my point is that if archie gets banned I agree it may easily lead to a situation where 10+ more things eventually end up banned. Im not entirely opposed to that but I do think the current meta we're in is somehow the best meta we've had out of SV yet, by a country mile. Can we get better? Idk..
Booster Energy i do think is super strong and meta defining. I would not be opposed to a booster suspect. Although part of me is thinking that a booster suspect may be too late considering the tier is also trying to manage other incredibly fast mons, some of which we dropped down from Ubers and may have to return to Ubers with a Booster ban. Darkrai, Dragapult, Deo-Speed are all pokemon that I think are totally 100% fine rn but may be more problematic with a booster energy ban. THAT BEING SAID I do think that booster has warped the meta wildly beyond anyone's real acknowledgement or recognition. Booster Speed is or was incredibly common on practically every paradox pokemon above base 100 speed and that lead to metagame states where I felt that most of these pokemon were on the edge of broken if not broken. Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Iron Moth, and Gouging Fire have at one point all felt very very broken to me and that was entirely due to their booster sets. There was usually *barely* enough in the tier to keep them around but honestly I think 2 of those pokemon at least are busted right now and I think thats due partially to booster. On top of that you have plenty of mons that feel like cheese and dishonest when they run booster sets such as Great Tusk, Iron Crown, Raging Bolt, Sandy Shocks, and even the commit tera Iron Thorns. NOT broken any of them but man are they stupidly easy to lose to if youre not prepared. Sun also exists for many of these pokemon true but I really do not see what is gained by keeping booster tbh.
Also I dont have a full paragraph for this but I want to state I really don't think Raging Bolt is broken. All my feelings about the mon are encapsulated in everything positive Ausma made in their post. I don't really see any of the negatives it adds to the tier besides its strength after a protosynthesis boost. And that makes me moreso want to discuss Protosynthesis/Booster Energy/Sun than discuss Raging Bolt. Raging Bolt is like a godsend to this meta imo please do not suspect it.
EDIT: Adding this later but i forgot to mention on this at first. I really do not see the point of lowering the threshold for a ban. While I am happy with more bans in general, I think the whole point of bans are that the justification for it has to be so overwhelmingly in favor of the ban that the mon is banned. If something happens to clutch the 50% + 1 or even the 55%, I dont feel like thats good justification for the majority of players wanting it gone. We don't ban because something is controversial, we ban because the community agrees its broken. Removing this leads us into a more volatile meta where its way easier to get anything suspected banned, splitting the community even further. People already dont like when stuff gets banned so banning something bc 50% + 1 voted on it will surely piss off the 50%-1 that didnt want it banned. Right now even if you vote No ban and something gets banned you can at least say well the large majority of everyone else disagreed and wanted it banned. Almost feels like it goes against policy to lower this threshold
Also Tera/Tera Blast is fine lol just ban volc :)
I think NJNP's initial post and CTC's post are both great and intelligent; I almost agree with both despite them saying opposite things. I think that there is a lot of broken stuff that exists in the meta but thankfully it does somewhat feel checked by other broken things. Very much a broken checks broken meta. However I do think that hinges on a particular loose piece of string, which is when the first pokemon gets banned (archaludon is my guess) it may lead to a slope of plenty of other mons being banned since the broken is no longer there to quite check the broken. I love that rain is viable for what seems like the first time in gen 9 and proto-sun teams aren't swarming the ladder quite as badly anymore. I feel like Sun and Rain have the tools to punish one another which feels really balanced to me. However, rain and archaludon itself feel very powerful and may be too broken for the tier. That convo is more for the suspect thread but my point is that if archie gets banned I agree it may easily lead to a situation where 10+ more things eventually end up banned. Im not entirely opposed to that but I do think the current meta we're in is somehow the best meta we've had out of SV yet, by a country mile. Can we get better? Idk..
Booster Energy i do think is super strong and meta defining. I would not be opposed to a booster suspect. Although part of me is thinking that a booster suspect may be too late considering the tier is also trying to manage other incredibly fast mons, some of which we dropped down from Ubers and may have to return to Ubers with a Booster ban. Darkrai, Dragapult, Deo-Speed are all pokemon that I think are totally 100% fine rn but may be more problematic with a booster energy ban. THAT BEING SAID I do think that booster has warped the meta wildly beyond anyone's real acknowledgement or recognition. Booster Speed is or was incredibly common on practically every paradox pokemon above base 100 speed and that lead to metagame states where I felt that most of these pokemon were on the edge of broken if not broken. Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Iron Moth, and Gouging Fire have at one point all felt very very broken to me and that was entirely due to their booster sets. There was usually *barely* enough in the tier to keep them around but honestly I think 2 of those pokemon at least are busted right now and I think thats due partially to booster. On top of that you have plenty of mons that feel like cheese and dishonest when they run booster sets such as Great Tusk, Iron Crown, Raging Bolt, Sandy Shocks, and even the commit tera Iron Thorns. NOT broken any of them but man are they stupidly easy to lose to if youre not prepared. Sun also exists for many of these pokemon true but I really do not see what is gained by keeping booster tbh.
Also I dont have a full paragraph for this but I want to state I really don't think Raging Bolt is broken. All my feelings about the mon are encapsulated in everything positive Ausma made in their post. I don't really see any of the negatives it adds to the tier besides its strength after a protosynthesis boost. And that makes me moreso want to discuss Protosynthesis/Booster Energy/Sun than discuss Raging Bolt. Raging Bolt is like a godsend to this meta imo please do not suspect it.
EDIT: Adding this later but i forgot to mention on this at first. I really do not see the point of lowering the threshold for a ban. While I am happy with more bans in general, I think the whole point of bans are that the justification for it has to be so overwhelmingly in favor of the ban that the mon is banned. If something happens to clutch the 50% + 1 or even the 55%, I dont feel like thats good justification for the majority of players wanting it gone. We don't ban because something is controversial, we ban because the community agrees its broken. Removing this leads us into a more volatile meta where its way easier to get anything suspected banned, splitting the community even further. People already dont like when stuff gets banned so banning something bc 50% + 1 voted on it will surely piss off the 50%-1 that didnt want it banned. Right now even if you vote No ban and something gets banned you can at least say well the large majority of everyone else disagreed and wanted it banned. Almost feels like it goes against policy to lower this threshold
Also Tera/Tera Blast is fine lol just ban volc :)
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