Metagame Views From The Council

[pika pal]

If that was the case they wouldn't have bother replying at all but they found a way to reply to people whose arguments resemble paid actors in an audience.

I can assure you from my time on the internet, you don't need to pay or goad people into saying things that dramatic or hyperbolic.

The reason for those replies were less to respond to specific points (since for the most part this thread centers on "Council is talking about something, let the community discuss it as well" rather than community debating it with the Council) and more because the posts were being incendiary and not contributing to the discussion. Rather than present a position or information to consider (which Wolf-X's own more recent post does significantly better), the language directed vitriol at the Rule/Tiering System and the Council trying to manage it, which made it counterproductive to the thread, much less its current topic. The response seemed like it had less/little to do with the arguments being bad than the presentation of them being unnecessarily hostile and thus unhelpful, when keeping things on topic and civil is also among the duties of a Forum mod/head.

 

[Jahkem]

I promise you this will come up again in gen10 if it isn't addressed here. There is pretty much one thing that will "bang the gavel" as you say, and it is to remove sleep clause in current gens going forward. The reason it keeps coming up is because nothing about it's controversial nature has changed. If people have a problem with it, and nothing changes, then they still have a problem with it, so it comes back into discussion

From what I see, there’s a sizable portion of the community that has a problem with Sleep. However, this portion can’t come together for one solution on what to do with it. Maybe a survey about Sleep should be made to really gauge the opinions of the community and top players. Surveys have had a lot of influence on tiering decisions so far, let’s start there.

 

[Wolf-X]

why does the burden of proof need to be "incredibly high" simply because a rule is old? it's because of how old the rule is that we're discussing a change. it's outdated. society has progressed past the point where it was acceptable. you're ignoring the reason that there's a pr post every generation about sleep clause, which is that it's a bullshit half-measure that some 4chan dudebros in 2004 plucked from a spinoff game that was old even then. it has no place here anymore, but unrestricted sleep objectively cannot exist in a competitive format, so the only realistic option is a wholesale (or mostly wholesale) ban on sleep moves. every previous generation except bw has decided to kick the can down the road, knowing that eventually the rule would have to go anyway. we have a chance to be the ones who people look back on and say "these guys did something about it". are we going to pass up that chance?

Discussing sleep is OK I guess, but some of the reactions and arguments seen in this thread would make you think sleep is dominating the meta and needs to be acted upon, while in reality most people are fine with sleep and might not even find a single hypnosis/sleep powder set in over 10 games.

Is all this an effect of BIG STALL having a poor match up against some of the sleep strategies? Everything seems clearer now...

Only reasonable reason to ban sleep I have read imo is that it results in coinflips and gives some losing match ups a better chance at winning. But isnt that the whole point in running a different move set? And how is this much different than many other Hax related mechanics already in the game?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The claim that its outdated hasn't even been proven.

if sleep moves were introduced this gen, under current tiering policy, how do you think they'd be handled?

You guys just keep saying 'its old' like that's a reason???

Its like psychotic almost how against sleep clause y'all are when there is very little substatial arguments for thowing it away???

if you consider half the council and a large portion of the community to be "psychotic", what are you doing hanging around with us? go somewhere with sane people who like uncompetitive mechanics

I mean you Mr Buzzwole in this post literally are saying the reason it is outdated is that its old and from a spinoff (as well as an out of nowhere comparison to 4chan) when that has no correlation. Old =/= outdated in every case.

my point is that it has no precedent in the actual cartridge games and is only still a thing because of tradition and sentiment. we shouldn't let the people of the past dictate what we do in the present. by arguing for the continuation of sleep clause, you're arguing that we base gen 9 tiering decisions around what gen 3 players think about balance

You're not even providing a legitimate reason why its bad.

it doesn't align with tiering policy and frankly doesn't even really work. if it was satisfactory, this discussion wouldn't be happening. or the last one. or the one before that. or the one before that

The only substantial claim I've heard against it is regarding "cart-accuracy" which is not something the community even agrees on.

the community doesn't necessarily have to "agree on" it because it clashes with rule one of tiering policy and that's an objective fact

 

[grayblood]

I can assure you from my time on the internet, you don't need to pay or goad people into saying things that dramatic or hyperbolic.

The reason for those replies were less to respond to specific points (since for the most part this thread centers on "Council is talking about something, let the community discuss it as well" rather than community debating it with the Council) and more because the posts were being incendiary and not contributing to the discussion. Rather than present a position or information to consider (which Wolf-X's own more recent post does significantly better), the language directed vitriol at the Rule/Tiering System and the Council trying to manage it, which made it counterproductive to the thread, much less its current topic. The response seemed like it had less/little to do with the arguments being bad than the presentation of them being unnecessarily hostile and thus unhelpful, when keeping things on topic and civil is also among the duties of a Forum mod/head.

calling them paid actors was hyperbole. I do know some people of the smogon userbase are just that stupid. and No one should humor them, such as a certain person who is still talking, who defaulted into pretending to be trolling all along just so he can pretend he wasn't just outright stupid.

 

[Alternator]

The claim that its outdated hasn't even been proven. You guys just keep saying 'its old' like that's a reason??? Its like psychotic almost how against sleep clause y'all are when there is very little substatial arguments for thowing it away??? I mean you Mr Buzzwole in this post literally are saying the reason it is outdated is that its old and from a spinoff (as well as an out of nowhere comparison to 4chan) when that has no correlation. Old =/= outdated in every case. You're not even providing a legitimate reason why its bad.

The only substantial claim I've heard against it is regarding "cart-accuracy" which is not something the community even agrees on.

I feel like if we are talking about removing a whole mechanic (sleep moves clause) and not reforming sleep clause, then the burden of proof does have to be incredibly high. This goes back to every other ban in OU, where we have to prove moves even as blatantly broken as last respects are broken on even their worst abusers. If it really is just 3 mons causing the issue, it's they who should be banned.

It's a gameplay mod that exists solely to nerf a specific element, which means it runs contrary to tiering policy and only exists due to the grandfather clause. Freeze Clause in past gens is also a gameplay mod, but in that case the alternative is functionally banning Ice moves, with Aurora Beam and its 65 BP the strongest without a freeze chance, and so it endures.

In this way, it is different than the battle timer, or showing percentage health, or showing available PP, or the damage log. Those are all gameplay mods as well (though the last two can be functionally replicated on a cart match with pen and paper) but the intent is convenience, rather than applying a nerf to something.

Unlike most, I'm not reflexively opposed to complex bans; I think that when properly targeted, they can have a place, such as DPP Baton Pass, where it's allowed purely as a pivoting move but not as a 'passing' move. I'm not even opposed to nerfing things to balance them, as long as it doesn't set problematic precedent, so I don't mind changing Sleep Clause into "You cannot use a move that causes sleep if you have already put an opposing mon to sleep," and just grey out the button, because that's not literally modifying game mechanics. It's replicating a gentlemen's agreement, and it does differ slightly in actual gameplay: losing the ability to sleep a mon coming out of sleep, or using sleep moves to PP stall.

I'm also not opposed to just nuking sleep moves in general, whether or not that ends up including Yawn. I just want the current iteration of Sleep Cause banned, because once again: it's a gameplay mod that meaningfully changes how we play the game.

 

[TCTphantom]

The claim that its outdated hasn't even been proven. You guys just keep saying 'its old' like that's a reason??? Its like psychotic almost how against sleep clause y'all are when there is very little substatial arguments for thowing it away??? I mean you Mr Buzzwole in this post literally are saying the reason it is outdated is that its old and from a spinoff (as well as an out of nowhere comparison to 4chan) when that has no correlation. Old =/= outdated in every case. You're not even providing a legitimate reason why its bad.

The only substantial claim I've heard against it is regarding "cart-accuracy" which is not something the community even agrees on.

I feel like if we are talking about removing a whole mechanic (sleep moves clause) and not reforming sleep clause, then the burden of proof does have to be incredibly high. This goes back to every other ban in OU, where we have to prove moves even as blatantly broken as last respects are broken on even their worst abusers. If it really is just 3 mons causing the issue, it's they who should be banned.

The age of Sleep Clause is important because it makes no sense from a modern tiering perspective. It exists right now as a compromise from the same era where Adv UU banned NFE Pokémon because it would be “too similar” to OU and DP had to debate banning a non legendary Pokemon that wasn’t Wobbufett.

Sleep Clause for all intents and purposes is a complex ban on sleep. It exists to nerf sleep, but keep it in the metagame. Complex bans, from a modern perspective, are incompatible with a balanced tier. Baton Pass in XY is a great example of how dumb complex bans can get. BP went through so many incarnations before the band aid was ripped off and we just banned baton pass. Complex bans are rare and should be kept as such.

Even beyond that, it’s a gameplay mod, something we have strived as far away from as possible. Our goal is to be as cart accurate as possible: sleep clause gets in the way of that in its current form.

 

[Eeveeto]

Not oppossed to a Sleep moves (except Relic Song, Dire Claw and Effect Spore) Ban, since it will slightly reduce the number of big threats. However, the meta is in such a sorry state (worst meta of entire SV OU except for the time when Annihilape was around) that I don,t think this should be a priority. Lots of Bans are needed to improve this meta, from the top of my head all this is what I consider to have a better case for a Ban than Sleep (no particular order):
1. Kingambit
2. Gholdengo
3. Gliscor
4. Gouging Fire
5. Raging Bolt (I considered this one big trash at first, then tried to build with Grounds not named the unviable Ting Lu, Clodsire and defensive variants of Treads and Drill)
6. Deoxys Speed
7. Enamorus
8. Iron Boulder
9. Volcarona
10. Walking Wake
11. Iron Valiant
12. Blaziken
13. Spikes (Ceaseless Edge could stay, since only 1 Mon learns it and currently that Mon is very far from broken)
14. Knock Off (This was fine with a reduced distribution)
15. Roaring Moon
16. Booster Energy (banning this would prevent some of the above bans).

I am probably in a minority changing the topic this way, but so far I am not liking this metagame at all. I enjoyed experimenting in PRE-Home Meta, I liked the Wcop Meta and even without playing it too much, the post-Gliscor Ban Meta of DLC1 looked pretty good. This meta on the other hand has way too many threats to prepare for and forces teams to be either no brainer HOs or boring Hazard Stacks with Gliscor, Clefable and their friends. Compared to the list I exposed, Sleep doesn,t seem to be a priority. Breloom is in big shit, Amoonguss is pretty bad with both Gliscor and Gholdengo around, Lilligant and Venusaur are tools vs other HOs (so I find their effect on the meta positive), so only Darkrai and Iron Valiant are legit targets to nerf with Sleep moves (and the later for me is still pretty unhealthy even without Hypnosis).

To sum this up, I am not against a Sleep Ban, but there are far more urgent topics to adress. SS OU in the second DLC had very few Bans and for me ended up in a very bad state (compared to DLC1 of the same generation, which was great), SV OU is right now looking to follow the same way.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

5. Raging Bolt (I considered this one big trash at first, then tried to build with Grounds not named the unviable Ting Lu, Clodsire and defensive variants of Treads and Drill)

?????????????????
it's literally the same tier on the vr as three of the mons you're considering as ban candidates

 

[658Greninja]

12. Blaziken

Wanting to ban a Pokemon that’s not even OU via usage is wild.

 

[Eeveeto]

Wanting to ban a Pokemon that’s not even OU via usage is wild.

Espathra, Baxcalibur and Roaring Moon would like a word with you.

 

[658Greninja]

Espathra, Baxcalibur and Roaring Moon would like a word with you.

They were banned while being OU via usage.

 

[8ctavia]

They were banned while being OU via usage.

Espathra was UU at the time of its ban funnily enough. Bax and Moon were UU, but rose to OU before they were banned. Still, calling Ting-Lu unviable was definitely a choice.

Anyway sleep is wack and would not be sad to see it go away.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Espathra was UU at the time of its ban funnily enough. Bax and Moon were UU, but rose to OU before they were banned. Still, calling Ting-Lu unviable was definitely a choice.

Anyway sleep is wack and would not be sad to see it go away.

espathra rose from uubl to ou in the february 2023 tier shift, 10 days before it was quickbanned. to my knowledge, no pokemon has ever been banned from ou without being in the tier by usage (except for weird edge cases like wynaut and other mons that could only carry banned abilities at the time) and frankly i'm not sure whether that's even allowed

 

[8ctavia]

espathra rose from uubl to ou in the february 2023 tier shift, 10 days before it was quickbanned.

My bad. I vividly remember the UU council not banning Espathra cuz they thought it would rise to OU naturally but didn't, then got quick banned. Somehow all that got mangled in my brain lol.

to my knowledge, no pokemon has ever been banned from ou without being in the tier by usage

How funny would that be though. A pokemon that's so broken yet so unfun to use that it ends up in a lower tier.

 

[Mega64]

POKÉMON SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO NAP. If you want to wake a napping Pokémon then you are an asshole. I dislike saying this, but it is the truth. I cannot abide the OU council feeding caffeine pills to Pokémon purely to make them further battle for our amusement.

Let our friends sleep!

 

[Mega64]

If we should ban anything, it should be hazards like spikes and rocks. They hurt our friends just for the sin of daring to have our dearest Pokéfriend go out and fight at our behest. What kind of friendship is that!? Pikachu, you are my most loyal ally, please go step on these spikes and sharp rocks and hurt yourself purely to fight on my behest.

Hazards are animal cruelty and should be banned from all metagames. If you support hazards, you support animal cruelty and should be banned from these forums. We need to eliminate hazards so we can stop hurting our friends, otherwise if we keep making our friends hurt themselves, are they truly our friends!?

 

[njnp]

We will now be locking this discussion with a PR post pending that will continue the conversation further.

 

[ausma]

The policy review thread is now live. Thank you guys for a great discussion!

 

[njnp]

I’ve been pondering making a post for about a week now. With real life getting in the way and honestly figuring out what approach I wanted to take with this post…it has taken me a while but we’re finally here. It has been rather frustrating to see some opinions/takes in recent weeks as we find ourselves in a metagame state that was very much avoidable. I have concluded that we as a player base have to face some realities.

Firstly, I need some of the player base to stop being opposed to bans of any kind. If you feel the metagame is in a fine state and nothing needs to change, you have the right to that opinion. That does not change the reality that a large portion of the player base finds this metagame untenable, which has been the case for most of this chaotic metagame. So, being that the general view is a good amount of Pokemon are problematic and you do not want the council to take matters into their hands, the reality needs to set in that more Pokemon will be banned, and that’s the only way to have a quality metagame.

I understand the prospect of banning even more Pokemon after having already binned 20+ is too much for certain players but realities have to be faced. This is arguably the most power crept Metagame and terastalization has only enlarged that. We currently have a metagame where a lot of matchups are decided turn 1 and that is very unhealthy. I feel the prospect of keeping Pokemon like Kyurem certainly doesn’t aid in the development of the Metagame.

"Yeah, now, well, the thing about the old days: they the old days" - Slim Charles from The Wire

The chance to remove terastalization seems to have passed. It is time for some of the player base to face that reality. With barely 1/4th of the qualified player base supporting the outright removal of terastalization, the chances of that changing are Slim to none. With that being the case though we need to remove all of the excessive abusers of tera to make it as palatable as possible. The prospect that we keep tera and allow Pokemon like Archaludon, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, or even Kingambit to remain in the tier is laughable. Let’s remind ourselves that this mechanic and these power crept Pokemon are made with the mindset of doubles gameplay. If you want to keep Terastalization, I need us as a player base to come to the understanding that we have to remove the most absurd abusers of the mechanic for it to be palatable.

If we’re to shape OU into a proper tier that stands the test of time with the power creep that game freak has bestowed upon us. I feel you can make the strong case we have to witness an additional 10 bans to have a stable state. Now now, I know 10 is a large number, btw Welcome to SV OU if you find that stunning. What I find stunning is the fact only 1/4th of the qualified player base right now supports the outright removal of terastalization while we load into unwindable matchups. I’m not personally pro the removal of terastalization but if you feel it is a balanced mechanic that deserves to stay then you must realize that your favorite Pokemon can not stay.

 

[Avira]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, njnp. While I don't subscribe to the train of thought that we need an additional 10 bans to have a stable meta, I do believe we need 5-7 more bans with Archaludon urgently needing to be removed from the tier.

 

[njnp]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, njnp. While I don't subscribe to the train of thought that we need an additional 10 bans to have a stable meta, I do believe we need 5-7 more bans with Archaludon urgently needing to be removed from the tier.

Yeah, I think 5 will be a great start, the reason why I end up at the number 10 is the domino effect of a Pokemon rising to prominence of being overwhelming once a component is removed. For Example, once Archaludon is removed it will hurt the rain arch type allowing something like Volcarona which is already a ridiculous presence to be even more centralizing.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I’ve been pondering making a post for about a week now. With real life getting in the way and honestly figuring out what approach I wanted to take with this post…it has taken me a while but we’re finally here. It has been rather frustrating to see some opinions/takes in recent weeks as we find ourselves in a metagame state that was very much avoidable. I have concluded that we as a player base have to face some realities.

Firstly, I need some of the player base to stop being opposed to bans of any kind. If you feel the metagame is in a fine state and nothing needs to change, you have the right to that opinion. That does not change the reality that a large portion of the player base finds this metagame untenable, which has been the case for most of this chaotic metagame. So, being that the general view is a good amount of Pokemon are problematic and you do not want the council to take matters into their hands, the reality needs to set in that more Pokemon will be banned, and that’s the only way to have a quality metagame.

I understand the prospect of banning even more Pokemon after having already binned 20+ is too much for certain players but realities have to be faced. This is arguably the most power crept Metagame and terastalization has only enlarged that. We currently have a metagame where a lot of matchups are decided turn 1 and that is very unhealthy. I feel the prospect of keeping Pokemon like Kyurem certainly doesn’t aid in the development of the Metagame.

"Yeah, now, well, the thing about the old days: they the old days" - Slim Charles from The Wire

The chance to remove terastalization seems to have passed. It is time for some of the player base to face that reality. With barely 1/4th of the qualified player base supporting the outright removal of terastalization, the chances of that changing are Slim to none. With that being the case though we need to remove all of the excessive abusers of tera to make it as palatable as possible. The prospect that we keep tera and allow Pokemon like Archaludon, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, or even Kingambit to remain in the tier is laughable. Let’s remind ourselves that this mechanic and these power crept Pokemon are made with the mindset of doubles gameplay. If you want to keep Terastalization, I need us as a player base to come to the understanding that we have to remove the most absurd abusers of the mechanic for it to be palatable.

If we’re to shape OU into a proper tier that stands the test of time with the power creep that game freak has bestowed upon us. I feel you can make the strong case we have to witness an additional 10 bans to have a stable state. Now now, I know 10 is a large number, btw Welcome to SV OU if you find that stunning. What I find stunning is the fact only 1/4th of the qualified player base right now supports the outright removal of terastalization while we load into unwindable matchups. I’m not personally pro the removal of terastalization but if you feel it is a balanced mechanic that deserves to stay then you must realize that your favorite Pokemon can not stay.

I would like to see how things shape up to be, I wouldn't necessarily say the chance to remove tera has necessarily passed, I do think once enough pokemon get banned people might support a second suspect, considering how lots of people said deal with the brokens first in the forums and survey responses before tera. I do also think a lot of people aren't aware of what a non tera meta would entail, so I do think maybe running an OUPL tournament without tera feels like the right call since an separate ladder is unfeasible, like not having tera in an OUPL tournament to give people a better idea of what that meta would look like since a no tera ladder would not work. I think taking tera off the survey is the wrong move, as many still want action on tera, just not now when shit like Archaludon and Roaring Moon are broken without tera even being much of a factor. I don't necessarily believe the time to remove tera has passed, but this is not the time to focus on it. We need to take care of obvious brokens before even discussing tera again and I am sure that is why a suspect on tera had less support. Because that seems like the common sentiment I hear on tera is that obvious brokens need to go first before action is even taken on tera

Good post njnp! Just thought I'd share what I have been hearing and my thoughts as a player to you and what I have heard from others

 

[Magcargo]

I’ve been pondering making a post for about a week now. With real life getting in the way and honestly figuring out what approach I wanted to take with this post…it has taken me a while but we’re finally here. It has been rather frustrating to see some opinions/takes in recent weeks as we find ourselves in a metagame state that was very much avoidable. I have concluded that we as a player base have to face some realities.

Firstly, I need some of the player base to stop being opposed to bans of any kind. If you feel the metagame is in a fine state and nothing needs to change, you have the right to that opinion. That does not change the reality that a large portion of the player base finds this metagame untenable, which has been the case for most of this chaotic metagame. So, being that the general view is a good amount of Pokemon are problematic and you do not want the council to take matters into their hands, the reality needs to set in that more Pokemon will be banned, and that’s the only way to have a quality metagame.

I understand the prospect of banning even more Pokemon after having already binned 20+ is too much for certain players but realities have to be faced. This is arguably the most power crept Metagame and terastalization has only enlarged that. We currently have a metagame where a lot of matchups are decided turn 1 and that is very unhealthy. I feel the prospect of keeping Pokemon like Kyurem certainly doesn’t aid in the development of the Metagame.

"Yeah, now, well, the thing about the old days: they the old days" - Slim Charles from The Wire

The chance to remove terastalization seems to have passed. It is time for some of the player base to face that reality. With barely 1/4th of the qualified player base supporting the outright removal of terastalization, the chances of that changing are Slim to none. With that being the case though we need to remove all of the excessive abusers of tera to make it as palatable as possible. The prospect that we keep tera and allow Pokemon like Archaludon, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, or even Kingambit to remain in the tier is laughable. Let’s remind ourselves that this mechanic and these power crept Pokemon are made with the mindset of doubles gameplay. If you want to keep Terastalization, I need us as a player base to come to the understanding that we have to remove the most absurd abusers of the mechanic for it to be palatable.

If we’re to shape OU into a proper tier that stands the test of time with the power creep that game freak has bestowed upon us. I feel you can make the strong case we have to witness an additional 10 bans to have a stable state. Now now, I know 10 is a large number, btw Welcome to SV OU if you find that stunning. What I find stunning is the fact only 1/4th of the qualified player base right now supports the outright removal of terastalization while we load into unwindable matchups. I’m not personally pro the removal of terastalization but if you feel it is a balanced mechanic that deserves to stay then you must realize that your favorite Pokemon can not stay.

While I would not like to see my beloved Kingambit or Gholdengo (eventually) go, I am in favor of expediting the banning process currently, either with a joint suspect (which I think we did in XY, but I don't remember) or by employing more quickbans. I do believe the meta is in a very match-up fishy state (perhaps the most match-up fishy its been the entire generation) and think the removal of a few outliers such as Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, possibly Roaring Moon, possibly Volcarona, and possibly Ogerpon-Wellspring would be a good start in improving the meta's state. Most of the aforementioned Pokemon are arguably absurd regardless of Tera, barring Volcarona and maybe Raging Bolt.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

While I would not like to see my beloved Kingambit or Gholdengo (eventually) go, I am in favor of expediting the banning process currently, either with a joint suspect (which I think we did in XY, but I don't remember) or by employing more quickbans. I do believe the meta is in a very match-up fishy state (perhaps the most match-up fishy its been the entire generation) and think the removal of a few outliers such as Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, possibly Roaring Moon, possibly Volcarona, and possibly Ogerpon-Wellspring would be a good start in improving the meta's state. Most of the aforementioned Pokemon are arguably absurd regardless of Tera, barring Volcarona and maybe Raging Bolt.

I would not be opposed to a heat rock and or drought ban either since sun might become overbearing the moment archaludon goes considering how many extremely strong sun abusers there are