I may be wrong in assuming this, but I don't think that there are any Pokemon other than Hydreigon that can outpace Haxorus but not Salamence. Now, keeping this in mind along with the assumption that both would use Outrage as their primary attack, would it not make more sense to opt to use Haxorus for its objectively higher Attack stat and deal more immediate damage in the short run if they are both going to be revenge killed by more or less the same Pokemon anyway? You say that Moxie makes Salamence more devastating than Haxorus, which I will concede may possibly be true against slower teams, but I don't think your argument holds in any other case where Salamence is just going to be revenge killed by a check who is faster or has access to priority.Be Very Scared
Salamence @ Choice Band
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Claw
This thing is a monster. Meet Banded Salamence, one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into in the OU tier. When most people see a Choiced Salamence, they expect Salamence to be Scarfed, only to be smashed :D What makes Choice Band Mence so great is that the opponent is dissuaded from switching into death fodder. Usually people fodder a Pokemon against a CB'er to make sure a wall gets in at full health, but Moxie prevents that situation. This is useful because Banders ussually try to soften up a Poke for their fellow sweeper and this makes sure that wearing down is much more targeted.
Actually that really isn't what makes Salamence a great bander. I didn't know before, but Moxie stacks on top of the CB boost. So after one kill Mence is reaching 910 attack. At that level of power, you are doing 42%-50% to physically defensive Skarmory. Pray that he doesn't get the 3 turn Outrage, because you will have very few ways to deal with a 1214 attack Salamence haha! You have to be very careful around Banded Mence or he will just overwhelm your team with power. Luckily, no one uses it except for me haha
IMO Banded Mence X100 better than Haxorus. In exchange for 27 less base power and an SR weakness, you have the potential to raise your attack by +1, the ability to wreck both Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and be faster.
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Underrated but effective sets in the BW2 overused metagame
- Thread starter asterat
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My Sun team (which has that Espeon I posted above) uses Moxie-Mence as a late game cleaner. Once things have been weakened it is very easy for him to come in, scare something out and steal a DD boost and then start wrecking things, usually causing GG's and ragequits all round.
Salamence @ Leftovers
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Claw
I find it hideously effective as long as you get rid of Mamoswine and the rare Weavile that are the only ones capable of killing it with priority.
It's fine if you are using the Dragon Dance or Choice Scarf set. My counterargument was aimed at the Choice Band set in particular.
Edit: I forgot to add that other than Moxie, the only advantage, in my opinion, that Banded Salamence has over Haxorus is access to Fire Blast and Flamethrower.
@Skore DDMoxie Salamence is cool! But I wouldn't say it is underrated
Where does that extra power come into play with Outrage? The bulky physical switchins such as Hippowdon and Gliscor are still 2HKO'ed anyway by Outrage. Salamence can KO Skarmory without the aid of weather, which is a big plus over Haxorus (Haxorus needs rain+Aqua Tail). Salamence 2HKO's without hurting yourself with Iron Barbs either ^^ The point is that the power difference is really negligible and so when you take into account that Salamence could become more powerful why not run it (other than SR)? The SR weakness is really the only thing holding CBMence back from outclassing CB Haxorus IMO.
I say it is more devastating because teams without a hard tanker for Outrage will find themselves in a pickle. Remember, you can waste a Pokemon as death fodder to CB Haxorus to burn 1 turn of Outrage, but you can't do the same thing to Moxie Salamence. It also has to do with Salamence being much harder to guess around than Haxorus because of its variety of sets. Most people assume CB is Scarfed until they see the damage output. Just play with it a bit and you will see what I mean when I say it is more "targeted".
However Choice Scarf Gengar>CB Salamence. Both are very fun to play with but Choice Scarf Gengar takes the cake!
Gengar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
Don't laugh, this guy is a serious revenge killer. With both a decrease of Tyranitar and Scizor, Gengar is having a field day! He can pretty much revenge kill against anything due to its awesome coverage and its ability to outspeed pretty much everything. Oh shit a +2 Adamant Dragonite, better whip my Gengar for the easy revenge kill. Same goes for Gyarados but with Thunderbolt (not many use max speed gyarados) Last man standing? Pick your coverage move of choice to clean up (not FB). Shadow Ball is really effective at doing this since it hits a lot of targets neutrally, but with STAB. IMO he is better than Latios because of the sheer surprise factor, no one expects the Scarf Gengar for the revenge kill. He has a lot of coverage that Scarf Latios lacks too so he can pick off targets like Gyarados. Scarf Gengar is a really nice touch when everything is so fast and powerful (looking at you big bird). There are some more gimmicky options you can try, like Foul Play and Destiny Bond, but this coverage is pretty much gives it the ability to revenge everything.
If you got the cajones, you can try to spin block Starmie and hit them with a Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt. I guarantee you they won't see it coming
Hydreigon and Timid Rotom-W fall into that zone where the speed comes into play. Tying with Base 100's and outspeeding even some fully invested in speed Volcs (Hidden Power IV drop) is useful too. Some Haxorus run 220 spe EV's so it doesn't outpace Acrobat (but that is really negligible). Outspeeding something that can immediately kill you (hydreigon) otherwise without speed is very helpful.
Where does that extra power come into play with Outrage? The bulky physical switchins such as Hippowdon and Gliscor are still 2HKO'ed anyway by Outrage. Salamence can KO Skarmory without the aid of weather, which is a big plus over Haxorus (Haxorus needs rain+Aqua Tail). Salamence 2HKO's without hurting yourself with Iron Barbs either ^^ The point is that the power difference is really negligible and so when you take into account that Salamence could become more powerful why not run it (other than SR)? The SR weakness is really the only thing holding CBMence back from outclassing CB Haxorus IMO.
I say it is more devastating because teams without a hard tanker for Outrage will find themselves in a pickle. Remember, you can waste a Pokemon as death fodder to CB Haxorus to burn 1 turn of Outrage, but you can't do the same thing to Moxie Salamence. It also has to do with Salamence being much harder to guess around than Haxorus because of its variety of sets. Most people assume CB is Scarfed until they see the damage output. Just play with it a bit and you will see what I mean when I say it is more "targeted".
However Choice Scarf Gengar>CB Salamence. Both are very fun to play with but Choice Scarf Gengar takes the cake!
Gengar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
Don't laugh, this guy is a serious revenge killer. With both a decrease of Tyranitar and Scizor, Gengar is having a field day! He can pretty much revenge kill against anything due to its awesome coverage and its ability to outspeed pretty much everything. Oh shit a +2 Adamant Dragonite, better whip my Gengar for the easy revenge kill. Same goes for Gyarados but with Thunderbolt (not many use max speed gyarados) Last man standing? Pick your coverage move of choice to clean up (not FB). Shadow Ball is really effective at doing this since it hits a lot of targets neutrally, but with STAB. IMO he is better than Latios because of the sheer surprise factor, no one expects the Scarf Gengar for the revenge kill. He has a lot of coverage that Scarf Latios lacks too so he can pick off targets like Gyarados. Scarf Gengar is a really nice touch when everything is so fast and powerful (looking at you big bird). There are some more gimmicky options you can try, like Foul Play and Destiny Bond, but this coverage is pretty much gives it the ability to revenge everything.
If you got the cajones, you can try to spin block Starmie and hit them with a Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt. I guarantee you they won't see it coming
Sorry for the super late response. When i first thought of ludicolo i didnt think it would ever work, just give em a try with a strong fighting type and something that can counter tornadus and he's actually pretty good.
Edit: Isn't that what makes something underrated anyway? when people theorymon them as bad but they actually turn out to be very good?
Ev spread does matter, you'll want 252 HP. Ditto will copy everything except the opponent's HP.
This is an Amoongus I have been using recently:
Amoongus (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Stun Spore
- Spore
- Clear Smog
- Giga Drain
So essentially, this double Status Amoongus works like this: Switch-in, Spore the oppnents Pokemon, they will probably Switch-out, use Stun Spore on the switch, and there it is, you have just Spread Status to two of the opposing Pokemons! Really good set as people are not waiting for it ever!
Amoongus (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Stun Spore
- Spore
- Clear Smog
- Giga Drain
So essentially, this double Status Amoongus works like this: Switch-in, Spore the oppnents Pokemon, they will probably Switch-out, use Stun Spore on the switch, and there it is, you have just Spread Status to two of the opposing Pokemons! Really good set as people are not waiting for it ever!
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Actually this is wrong. I've been on the opposite end of ditto's without a choice scarf and it's still just as threatening/annoying to face at times. It's actually even harder to deal with since scarfed ditto is easy to force out/revenge kill. I've seen quick claw ditto and a few others that just won the speed or took advantage of my walls. In one case, I saw a yache berry ditto too which laughed at my mamoswine after copying one of my dragons.
Out of place Tornadus-T:
Tornadus-T @ Flying Gem
Naive Nature
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
~Bulk Up
~Acrobatics
~Superpower/U-turn
~Heat wave
This guy belongs under the sun, where his sun-boosted Heat wave will decimate Skarmory and Magnezone, two pokemon that like to switch in to the standard Tornadus-T's Hurricane. After just one Bulk Up, Tornadus-T's attack rises to outstanding levels, allowing Acrobatics to OHKO many things that don't resist it. Get to +3 or +4 without losing too much health, and the match is basically yours. The choice between U-turn and Superpower is something I could never decide on; Superpower allows you to hit Heatran and Rotom-W, but U-turn allows you to switch and gain Regenerator health while still attacking.
Tornadus-T @ Flying Gem
Naive Nature
4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
~Bulk Up
~Acrobatics
~Superpower/U-turn
~Heat wave
This guy belongs under the sun, where his sun-boosted Heat wave will decimate Skarmory and Magnezone, two pokemon that like to switch in to the standard Tornadus-T's Hurricane. After just one Bulk Up, Tornadus-T's attack rises to outstanding levels, allowing Acrobatics to OHKO many things that don't resist it. Get to +3 or +4 without losing too much health, and the match is basically yours. The choice between U-turn and Superpower is something I could never decide on; Superpower allows you to hit Heatran and Rotom-W, but U-turn allows you to switch and gain Regenerator health while still attacking.
I recently took up the challenge of trying a mono ice team. I've only used it tonight, but it's surprisingly winning roughly half it's battles. This has nearly been all due to the fact that I decided to use a standard Jynx set. I know, Jynx is RU but I've been sweeping like crazy with it once certain threats are gone, mostly priority users (Scizor)
Jynx @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Lovely Kiss
- Blizzard/Ice Beam
- Substitute
Using Jynx effectively is simple with the right support. The most important thing to have is a spinner due to Jynx having weakness to SR. The other important thing is a reliable way of taking down Scizor. Bring Jynx in after one of your pokes are koed, then use Lovely Kiss. Then get up your sub and start boosting. Even after one boost Jynx can often OHKO pokes that resist Blizzard, so the lack of coverage really doesn't hurt much. Another great function I think an Ice Beam Jynx could hold is countering rain due to Dry Skin and the fact that it can come in and set up on a great number of rain abusers. I may even try it out on a rain team at some point
Jynx @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Lovely Kiss
- Blizzard/Ice Beam
- Substitute
Using Jynx effectively is simple with the right support. The most important thing to have is a spinner due to Jynx having weakness to SR. The other important thing is a reliable way of taking down Scizor. Bring Jynx in after one of your pokes are koed, then use Lovely Kiss. Then get up your sub and start boosting. Even after one boost Jynx can often OHKO pokes that resist Blizzard, so the lack of coverage really doesn't hurt much. Another great function I think an Ice Beam Jynx could hold is countering rain due to Dry Skin and the fact that it can come in and set up on a great number of rain abusers. I may even try it out on a rain team at some point
Here's a thought: Special Attacker Landorus
It's anti-metagame and can masquerade as a Physical Set or a choice set with sheer force + Life orb. Here's the set I came up with (any ideas for more moves are welcome)
Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave / HP Ice
It's anti-metagame and can masquerade as a Physical Set or a choice set with sheer force + Life orb. Here's the set I came up with (any ideas for more moves are welcome)
Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave / HP Ice
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Nature: Modest
252 HP/ 66 SAtk / 140 SDef / 52 Spd
Taunt
Roost
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Excellent set. Hydreigon's auspicious typing offers some really useful resistances, this, coupled with a fast taunt and reliable recovery make for a very reliable pokemon. As long as you aren't expecting it too do too much offensively, you won't be disappointed.
Nature: Modest
252 HP/ 66 SAtk / 140 SDef / 52 Spd
Taunt
Roost
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Excellent set. Hydreigon's auspicious typing offers some really useful resistances, this, coupled with a fast taunt and reliable recovery make for a very reliable pokemon. As long as you aren't expecting it too do too much offensively, you won't be disappointed.
Special Landorus is an interesting idea, but not that practical in actual use. His main STAB is notably weaker than a LO EQ in Sand, and he really misses having a Rock type move. In general, his problem is the lack of coverage his Special moveset has. When you need to consider running Sludge Wave, you know you're in trouble. If only he had Nidoking's move pool...
Yeah but his power lies in the illusion that landorus is usually physical, NOT SPECIAL. By bringing him as a special attacker it's likely that you can take out an opponents physical wall so fast it'll make his head spin. And if all else fails I guess we can make a mixed set with sheer force.
I'm sure it would nab some surprise KOs, but in ladder play, where you're likely to face the same person multiple times, it quickly loses its effectiveness. It also still has problems with Landorus' arch nemesis, Skarmory. A mixed set sounds much more viable for laddering if you want to abuse Sheer Force. In tournament play, Special Landorus is a different story since you usually only face someone once, meaning the surprise factor is always in play.
Yeah a mix set does sound good, but the only really viable move that gets the sheer force boost is stone edge. Guess we'll just have to wait till another gen comes out then pray it gets some more viable moves. Then maybe, just maybe, it'll be the Nidoking of OU.
Yeah I've used Jynx a lot recently on Rain, it's really impressive.
Skarmory does not switch into Hurricanes ever, the only Skarmory that can take Hurricanes well is Specially Defensive Skarmory and that is almost never used. Magnezone doesn't switch into Tornadus-T either since it usually carries Focus Blast and outspeeds even Scarf Magnezone and obviously OHKO's it. Heat Wave is very useful against Jirachi and Bronzong, two Steel Types that would otherwise wall Tornadus-T, though under rain it does jack.
Honestly only a bad player would spore against a team that runs espeon...
Cofagrigus (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Nasty Plot
- Trick Room
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
As OU's #1 Cofagrigus fan it was only natural to incorporate this set into a team eventually. When I built a Deoxys-D HO team I was using Gengar as my offensive spin blocker but was dissapointed how it was so frail and was liable to being Pursuit trapped easily. Thereupon I used NastyRoom Cofgrigus of OU fame! Cofagrigus has the distinct advantage of actually being able to live an attack if I don't predict the Rapid SPin correctly! Amazing right? While it is cubersome to setup, you should find yourself able to do so against the defensive spinblockers. Cofagrigus isn't weak either, after one Nasty Plot you will find yourself sitting pretty at 632 attack which is more than enough to attempt a sweep. Cofagrigus also has that nice to defense stat should I find myself needing to tank a hit. It makes a nice asset against teams that rely on Choice Scarf users to check HO teams.
Or perhaps an incredibly good player who knows that you know that a good player wouldn't spore against a team with Espeon...
In which case they'd have to be facing a player who's good enough to know the opponent is good enough not to spore against a team with Espeon. But then... etc...etc
That kind of level of predicting is not likely to occur frequently. At least not on the ladder.
Spore's actually safer than you'd think against teams with Espeon. Espeon really doesn't want to risk switching into Techniloom because it gets destroyed by Bullet Seed or Low Sweep. Toxic Heal Breloom can just use Substitute on the switch, and choose its move from there. I'd be much more hesitant to fire off a Spore against teams with Xatu.
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