Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

What Pokemon should we base our team around?


  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
just to say Arceus cannot really set up on anyone bar deoxys-s who deals about 12%-15% to max HP variants and we can taunt if SD is predicted (not a good idea though)
also its not as though jolly is unused on ekiller, since it allows speed ties with other Arceus.
also blitzlefan I think u forgot to give arcues adamant?
anyway gira-o is OHKOed by +2 shadow force after sr, and dialga doesn't enjoy eq
Arceus gets t-wave
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
Oops I was unsure of what "bulky Arceus" was so i assumed it was the same as like CM Arceus. So the "bulky Arceus" oops... I accidentally assumed 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, with a Speed-boosting nature. For these new calculations, they are 252 HP / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature with leftovers. Can you define what "bulky Arceus-Normal" really is so I can show calculations? Thank you.

+2 0 Atk Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 110-129 (33.95 - 39.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (75.67 - 89.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: what moves and item on Arceus-Normal?
The Honkalculator says Leftovers w/ Ice Beam and Return. Is this right? Should I swap Return with ExtremeSpeed?


Because with Return,
+2 0 Atk Arceus-Normal Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 140-165 (43.2 - 50.92%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Arceus-Normal: 258-306 (58.1 - 68.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Terrakion wins unless it is burned

but with ExtremeSpeed,
+2 0 Atk Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 110-129 (33.95 - 39.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Arceus-Normal: 258-306 (58.1 - 68.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Terrakion wins unless it is burned
 
never knew wallceus used swords dance, I am pleasantly and genuinely surprised
isn't standard moveset STAB / WoW / Recover / Filler support, eg Perish song or roar
 
Wallceus is crazy rare though. As in, I've never ever seen one on Showdown. That's not to say it isn't good, but not something that we have to be worried about.

I think this has already been nominated by someone else, so I'll just reiterate it: Swords Dance Rayquaza would be very nice for this team. We get a win condition, a check to weather sweepers, priority, and a way of cracking open steels with a fire move of choice. Then we can also run Giratina-O alongside it to check Blaziken, Mewtwo, etc.

However, this leaves us with 4 dragon types, all with meh synergy? With that archetype, scarf Zekrom can just lock it itself into Outrage and win after Dialga is dead. Darkrai over Tina wouldn't help solve this either, as Darkrai is almost always OHKOd by Outrage after Rocks (252 Atk Zekrom Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 238-282 (84.39 - 100%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Could we maybe try a bulky Arceus Dark somewhere? It solves our Psychic problems, checks Ghostceus strongly, and provides a general check to powerful special attackers. However then we're adding to our current Fighting weakness, which would need to be remedied in the last slot (Rayquaza is boned by Terrakion hard though :/)
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
If you're worrying about these two, then SD Rayquaza can deal with them with ExtremeSpeed after a boost, so it covers a lot of stuff! But we'll need something else to cover Arceus-Ghost more effectively.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 302-356 (85.31 - 100.56%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 370-437 (122.51 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

When is the next vote?
 
Wallceus usually doesn't use SD...?

The next vote will occur in a little bit, but I don't want to interrupt the discussion that's going on right now. You can expect it to occur within the next week.
 
I have previously stated my dislike for Rayquaza on this forum before. However, I have given SD Rayquaza a shot recently and it has done really nicely. It can beat Kingdra, which is extremely threatening to our team (especially if we add Darkrai), and gives us another wallbreaker. It also gives us much-needed priority to revenge weakened mons. That SR weakness and its mediocre bulk are unfortunate as it will rarely enter a match more than twice. Still, Blitzlefan's calcs convince me that SD Rayquaza can fit in nicely with this team.
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
Oops... because I was asking for "bulky Arceus" like SD for akuto's calculations because I've never really heard of bulky Arceus, and you gave me Wallceus' spread so I made calculations with those too... oops. Wallceus can only beat Terrakion with Will-O-Wisp I think, and I think Arceus-Normal in general doesn't fare very well against Terrakion.

Edit: hooray! hooray! hooray for calcs! :)
 
I run, and I expect others do as well, 252 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe with an Impish Nature.
Same. I run double status on m Wallceus as scarfers hate paralysis and physical attackers hate the burn (though relying on WoW isn't always reliable so I usually use Thunder Wave if all else is equal). As was stated several posts earlier this page, Wallceus is fairly rare and not really something we need to overprepare for. It can have success against this team though. One final note: Wallceus is yet another threat that Darkrai can deal with, so long it doesn't switch in on Thunder Wave.

Anyways, thanks for the update jackm! It'll be cool to see what pokemon get nominated next. I am not sure if I would prefer Darkrai or Rayquaza at this point.
 
lol just realised jackm's EV spread has too many EVs
also dialga can beat kingdra better than rayquaza can
bulky ekiller is generally 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe Adamant
 
Oops I was unsure of what "bulky Arceus" was so i assumed it was the same as like CM Arceus. So the "bulky Arceus" oops... I accidentally assumed 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, with a Speed-boosting nature. For these new calculations, they are 252 HP / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature with leftovers. Can you define what "bulky Arceus-Normal" really is so I can show calculations? Thank you.

+2 0 Atk Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 110-129 (33.95 - 39.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (75.67 - 89.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: what moves and item on Arceus-Normal?
The Honkalculator says Leftovers w/ Ice Beam and Return. Is this right? Should I swap Return with ExtremeSpeed?


Because with Return,
+2 0 Atk Arceus-Normal Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 140-165 (43.2 - 50.92%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Arceus-Normal: 258-306 (58.1 - 68.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Terrakion wins unless it is burned

but with ExtremeSpeed,
+2 0 Atk Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 110-129 (33.95 - 39.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Arceus-Normal: 258-306 (58.1 - 68.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Terrakion wins unless it is burned
Bulky arceus for me is 252HP/252ATCK/4spee Espeed +2 252 adamant vs standard 0 def 4 hp terrakion 56.9% - 67.2% 177 - 209
 
Well, there is a difference between a bulky Extremekiller Arceus and a Wallceus. A bulky EKiller will run maximum attack (252 attack + adamant nature), either 16 or 20 speed EV's, and puts the rest in health. The bulk allows it to take hits well, making Leftovers unnecessary; most bulky EKiller run Silk Scarf though some elect to run Lum Berry. Apart from the EV spread, a bulky EKiller functions the same as a fast one. It loses out on the ability to potentially beat Focus Blast Ghostceus (unless it gets really lucky), but can set up a Swords Dance on more threats.

Wallceus, on the other hand, will never invest in Attack or Special Attack, and I find speed creeping it to beat out bulky EKiller to be unnecessary. Physically defense Wallceus run 252 HP/252 Defense/4 Special Defense, whereas Specially defensive Wallceus run 252 HP/4 Defense/252 Special Defense. We already have Terrakion for EKiller and it can OHKO specially defense Wallceus after SR and Spikes. A physically defensive Wallceus with Thunder Wave or Will-O-Wisp, however, will drive Terrakion nuts if Wallceus is at 75+% health. As others have mentioned, Wallceus is really rare so I don't recommend adding a pokemon to specifically dispose of it, but it is something that could potentially bother this team. Darkrai puts it to sleep and can switch in on a Recover or perhaps a Will-O-Wisp (Return and Thunder Wave are dangerous to Darkrai though). Taunt Sableye also handles Wallceus if we elect to use that as our spinblocker. I know Melee Mewtwo, Haruno, and other good players are experienced with using it.
 
Taunt Sableye also handles Wallceus if we elect to use that as our spinblocker. I know Melee Mewtwo, Haruno, and other good players are experienced with using it.
lol I know trickroom uses gyarados.
also wallceus can just let something else absorb the sleep.
we have other options, such as a resttalker to absorb status since we have nothing to absorb sleep from darkrai. they are rare, however, as we only have giratina-o.
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
Anyways, I don't think we have to worry about bulky Arceus that much as with a little prior damage we can still get the best of it, and we have more pressing issues like weather sweepers. Also, I strongly urge that we put Rest Talk on Terrakion over Toxic for a status absorber.
 
Sorry for the lack of posts spring break, and rest talkers maybe we could run snorlax? He can absorb status, counter hail teams and some sun sweepers and be a status inducer with body slam. I remember someone saying that most of uber mons are specially invested so maybe special defensive set could work? And last i checked lax is "inovative". On another note for weather sweepers i would say gira-o is our best bet. He's reliable, but i do have to say he is frail and if someone could run some damage calcs on some common weather sweepes pretty sure he can be 2hko'ed by almost anything and by other weather sweepers ohko "hail". So on the edge about him.
 
Sorry for the lack of posts spring break, and rest talkers maybe we could run snorlax? He can absorb status, counter hail teams and some sun sweepers and be a status inducer with body slam. I remember someone saying that most of uber mons are specially invested so maybe special defensive set could work? And last i checked lax is "inovative". On another note for weather sweepers i would say gira-o is our best bet. He's reliable, but i do have to say he is frail and if someone could run some damage calcs on some common weather sweepes pretty sure he can be 2hko'ed by almost anything and by other weather sweepers ohko "hail". So on the edge about him.
Honestly, Snorlax isn't THAT strong, as he can easily be crushed by any physical move if we run the special set, and if we focus on full defense on the special side, what is Snorlax going to do against the uber mons? I don't think it will be any good in the current meta.
 
Sorry for the lack of posts spring break, and rest talkers maybe we could run snorlax? He can absorb status, counter hail teams and some sun sweepers and be a status inducer with body slam. I remember someone saying that most of uber mons are specially invested so maybe special defensive set could work? And last i checked lax is "inovative". On another note for weather sweepers i would say gira-o is our best bet. He's reliable, but i do have to say he is frail and if someone could run some damage calcs on some common weather sweepes pretty sure he can be 2hko'ed by almost anything and by other weather sweepers ohko "hail". So on the edge about him.
he OHKOs back in return...? so basically, comes in on boosting move, survives and ko. omastar can't set up on anything
 
Given the chaotic turn this has taken after the second member was decided (by voting lol) I suggest for future CATs, maybe submit a whole team after the second teammate has been chosen? It's hard to follow up teammates if every vote for a new one can go in a different direction. It would be easier to see what works best if people would just propose teams and working from there.
 

blitzlefan

shake it off!
Yeah I do like locoghoul's idea; maybe not entire teams but pairs with good offensive/defensive synergy or roles, as individual mons don't provide as much team synergy.

Anyways, I don't particularly approve of Snorlax, as it's REALLY slow and physical attackers (especially with the high attacking prowess in the tier), will destroy it. I don't really want to go out of our way to find unconventional members to use. If they happen to work, then sure, but taking an underused mon and trying to force it into a role/a team in which it doesn't fit (remember, we decided this is an offense team), doesn't seems like the way to go.

I understand that we should probably wait for another CCAT to implement change, but I suggest that we be able to take the team as a whole after we pick out all 6 members and have the option to change them, so if one or two don't match team synergy or there is a better mon to use that fills the same role, we can make this change. This makes the CCAT more flexible I think.

Not much more to say regarding mons we can use: Darkrai and Rayquaza have my support, and Arceus-Steel>Dialga too.
 
I agree with blitz about anoother forum, it gives us alot of flexability to try things after the team is finished. Also we wouldnt have to worry about changing sets until were done. On another note ik lax seems like a terrabad idea but it fulfils its roll. Lax is uu for a reason but mandibuzz is NU for a reason the time it was suggested
 
why would anyone use this thing
no niche at all
assuming 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef, your physical bulk is lower than chansey's and comparable to blissey's coz HP. meanwhile special bulk is significantly lower
only advantages is thick fat and whirlwind, its special bulk is ~7/12 of Blissey's, so thick fat isn't really much of a plus. we also have better phazers, such as Arceus, dialga and giratina-o
 

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