The Everything Eli Manning Thread - Overrated Edition

[TheValkyries]

So you think Cruz is ready to be the number 1 receiver? You think it wasn't because of Nicks that Cruz looked so good? With Cruz and two 3rd stringers on the field, do you think Cruz will be anywhere as efficient as he was last year? Sorry but it was the threat of Nicks that gave a lot of those yards to Cruz and right now i'm not sure he is ready to be the number 1 receiver. To be honest i still think Cruz is average at best and no i don't mean that it was Eli who made him look good. It was the fact that other than preseason games, this guy was a no name and the other teams weren't ready for him. Now, hopefully i'm wrong but i doubt he averages 18 yards a catch with 1400+ yards. I'm not betting against a man who has something to prove though.

Victor Cruz is the single best Slot Receiver in the game right now. Better than even Wes Welker, in my opinion. Hakeem Nicks isn't even one of the Top 5 Wideouts in the league. He's good. Maybe top 10. But he's not better than everyone else in the way that Victor Cruz is. Which is what I was referring to.

You think Victor is only good because Nicks is going deep? Fuck no. You could run a safety on Nicks's side with a CB shadow, while still keeping an LB/Safety to cover Cruz while running Zoned LB's all on top of him. It's easy to theoretically cover both at once. Nick's "pull" of a Safety doesn't help Cruz out in any way since Cruz's catches are going to happen far in front of the Safety anyway.

You also have a severely impaired view of the Wide Receiver Position. You think all of them are made Equal, and that the Slot is just a lower down on the rung receiver position. Maybe 5-10 years ago it was like that... But not now. The Slot Receiver is the up and coming commodity, and plays very differently from the Wide Out position. So if you ask do I think Victor Cruz can move to be a Number 1 receiver. My answer is hell no. No way Victor Cruz should be split wide and act as a Number 1 Receiver. It'd be a waste of his agility to have him run posts slants and seams and it'd be a terrible mismatch since he doesn't have speed or the length to make plays over the top of a CB. Nicks has those things, but he doesn't have the agility or the low center of gravity to play Slot as effectively as Cruz.




EDIT: When did this become "The Everything Giants Thread-2012 Edition"?

Can we talk about how Brady is going to have his third 5000 yard season and assuredly win the NFL MVP now that he is guaranteed to have a threat to the outside of the Hashes (9 true Wide Receivers on the roster... One of them has got to hit).

We could also talk about how Alex Smith ripped into Cam Newton with the same flawed logic that people have used before, by saying that if you're losing games you're running the no huddle a lot in the second half and throwing the ball like Cam Newton.

We could go back to my favorite subject and talk about how the Demeco Ryans trade was at once the greatest and stupidest trade of all time depending on which party you ask.

 

[Wikey]

Alex Smith is right that playing on a losing team inflates a QBs YPG but he shouldn't have mentioned Cam. Cam might have had a YPG boost but it wasn't being on a losing team that caused Newton to have more passing TDs than Smith and almost as many Rushing TDs as Smith had passing.

 

[yond]

Please ignore somehero and his inability to understand the stupid media coined 'Number 1/2/3 WR' phrase is not how it actually works. Yes Hakeem Nicks is an excellent split end and cruz played a great y (slot), but cruz isn't like 'a level below nicks so he doesn't play SE'...

Anyway ya somehero makes this thread boring for even me, I'm tired of all the terrible giants are good vs giants are bad arguments.

also alex smith is just salty people don't respect his 198 YPG average from last season...

 

[some hero]

@DM I don't take seriously anyone who makes fun of other posters. So of course i was going to agree with it.

With Hixon, Randle, Jernigan, Barden, etc., someone's going to be able to fill in if Nicks misses any time.

And Somehero, Cruz is average at best? wtf. He's probably not going to have 1400+ yards again, but he is definitely our most explosive player on offense. And it's not like Cruz suddenly stopped making plays when he was double-teamed; he played well even when coaches focused more on him later in the season.

Randle is a given. I am already assuming he will outplay Manningham and be the third/second. But Barden?? He has size but lacks the speed neccesary to be a reliable NFL receiver.. i think he's a bust. And i hate saying that. Both Hixon and Jernigan are okay, but both have been injury prone. Which leads me to really want a veteran 1 year receiver. Say Plaxico. Now hear me out, he knows the system and we wouldn't need him to be his old self. He would be depth and Randle might learn something from him(i think he was drafted to be a red zone threat).

Victor Cruz is the single best Slot Receiver in the game right now. Better than even Wes Welker, in my opinion. Hakeem Nicks isn't even one of the Top 5 Wideouts in the league. He's good. Maybe top 10. But he's not better than everyone else in the way that Victor Cruz is. Which is what I was referring to.

You think Victor is only good because Nicks is going deep? Fuck no. You could run a safety on Nicks's side with a CB shadow, while still keeping an LB/Safety to cover Cruz while running Zoned LB's all on top of him. It's easy to theoretically cover both at once. Nick's "pull" of a Safety doesn't help Cruz out in any way since Cruz's catches are going to happen far in front of the Safety anyway.

You also have a severely impaired view of the Wide Receiver Position. You think all of them are made Equal, and that the Slot is just a lower down on the rung receiver position. Maybe 5-10 years ago it was like that... But not now. The Slot Receiver is the up and coming commodity, and plays very differently from the Wide Out position. So if you ask do I think Victor Cruz can move to be a Number 1 receiver. My answer is hell no. No way Victor Cruz should be split wide and act as a Number 1 Receiver. It'd be a waste of his agility to have him run posts slants and seams and it'd be a terrible mismatch since he doesn't have speed or the length to make plays over the top of a CB. Nicks has those things, but he doesn't have the agility or the low center of gravity to play Slot as effectively as Cruz.




EDIT: When did this become "The Everything Giants Thread-2012 Edition"?

Can we talk about how Brady is going to have his third 5000 yard season and assuredly win the NFL MVP now that he is guaranteed to have a threat to the outside of the Hashes (9 true Wide Receivers on the roster... One of them has got to hit).

We could also talk about how Alex Smith ripped into Cam Newton with the same flawed logic that people have used before, by saying that if you're losing games you're running the no huddle a lot in the second half and throwing the ball like Cam Newton.

We could go back to my favorite subject and talk about how the Demeco Ryans trade was at once the greatest and stupidest trade of all time depending on which party you ask.

I didn't know you liked Cruz... If you wanted to know though, Cruz will remain in the slot. Alright i'll quit the whining if you want. Though remember last postseason and what Nicks did. All i have to say.

And i wanted to ask you. Where do you rank Eli currently in the best QBs(i already know what you think of Rodgers...)? Not really interested in the top 4, but the 5+ mostly. As you clearly know more about the game. Since even though Eli beat the Patriots twice you still remain neutral(unlike CK who either knows nothing about football or is just an angry Cowboys fanboy.. as my sig proves).

 

[Tom Brady]

I agree with the first part. However, RBs are no longer that important. All you need is a good offensive line and average RBs to have an efficient running attack. Just look at the 2007 Giants. You could have replaced Bradshaw and Jacobs with any mediocre RB and still get the same results. It also doesn't help that the team with the worst rushing game just won the SB.

you quoted and underlined where I said MAYBE a running back. Adrian Peterson, yes. He's a beast. Ryan Grant....obviously not.

 

[Wikey]

Please ignore somehero and his inability to understand the stupid media coined 'Number 1/2/3 WR' phrase is not how it actually works. Yes Hakeem Nicks is an excellent split end and cruz played a great y (slot), but cruz isn't like 'a level below nicks so he doesn't play SE'...

Anyway ya somehero makes this thread boring for even me, I'm tired of all the terrible giants are good vs giants are bad arguments.

also alex smith is just salty people don't respect his 198 YPG average from last season...

Wes Welker is obviously the third best receiver on the Pats since he plays the slot. And Ochocinco was clearly better since he was playing at either the X or Z.

 

[TheValkyries]

Where do you rank Eli currently in the best QBs

Tier 2 QB (i.e. Good... not Elite). 7th overall.



Meanwhile, in Alex Smith Cam Newton land: Jon Beason called Smith out on twitter saying "Alex smith, don't hate on Cam Bc your stats would've gotten u cut if Peyton decided to come 2 San Fran.Truth b told..That's after a 13-3 yr."

I liked that line.

 

[Shinryu]

Tier 2 QB (i.e. Good... not Elite). 7th overall.



Meanwhile, in Alex Smith Cam Newton land: Jon Beason called Smith out on twitter saying "Alex smith, don't hate on Cam Bc your stats would've gotten u cut if Peyton decided to come 2 San Fran.Truth b told..That's after a 13-3 yr."

I liked that line.

I found it pretty funny as well, Smith forgets he's one of the biggest fucking losers at QB with 1 decent season.

Why couldn't we get Manning...sigh...

 

[Nozizaki]

Wes Welker is obviously the third best receiver on the Pats since he plays the slot. And Ochocinco was clearly better since he was playing at either the X or Z.

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, which if you are, I couldn't agree with you more. Many receivers play much better when they have another great receiver on the field at the same time. Due to this I'd have to say Welker is better than Cruz as far as playing slot receiver, because Cruz had Nicks+Manningham>Branch+Ochocinco. One could make the argument that the TEs of the Patriots are assisting in the situation, which may be correct, but in generals TEs are worse deep threats than WRs, which doesn't help alleviate the the congest center of the field or occupy the safeties.

 

[yond]

welker had gronkowski and hernandez who both drew double teams, so that argument is pretty void.

 

[DM]

goddammit I fucking hate the football off-season

 

[Justin8649]

goddammit I fucking hate the football off-season

you probably hate it during the season too

get it?

bills fan.
lol

in more serious regards, im somewhat worried about my panthers this year. they didnt really upgrade at DB or DT which were the most pressing needs this offseason. hopefully the return of beason and thomas davis (coming back from his 3rd ACL injury in 3 years..yeah..hes done) will help to hide the deficiencies at the other positions

 

[YTP]

I liked Alex Smith's quote better:

"This is the honest truth: I could absolutely care less on yards per game. I think that's a totally overblown stat. Because if you're losing games in the second half, guess what? You're like the Carolina Panthers and you're going no-huddle the entire second half and, yeah, Cam Newton threw for a lot of 300-yard games, that's great. You're not winning, though."

 

[CaptKirby]

Alex Smith is salty because a rookie achieved more in one year than he will in his entire career. Cam Newton is in play for greatest QB of all time depending on what he shows us next year, Alex Smith is in play to be remembered by 49ers fans and pretty much nobody else.

 

[Mr.E]

I'm not a niners fan and I will always remember Alex Smith for how many chances he was given to prove how bad he is over and over and over and over and over again.

 

[WaterBomb]

Alex Smith saying that is like Joe Flacco saying he's the best QB in the NFL, lol.

Echoing DM's sentiments. I wouldn't complain if there was football year round

 

[Shinryu]

I'm not a niners fan and I will always remember Alex Smith for how many chances he was given to prove how bad he is over and over and over and over and over again.

I'm a Niners fan and this is incidentally what I will always remember him for.

 

[Wikey]

Alex Smith saying that is like Joe Flacco saying he's the best QB in the NFL, lol.

Echoing DM's sentiments. I wouldn't complain if there was football year round

40 game season gogogo. 4 weeks for playoffs, 4 bye weeks, 4 week offseason.

There should be a southern hemisphere league that plays between draft day and the first preseason game. Play the games on NFL network or something.

 

[YTP]

Personally, I'll always remember Alex Smith for that run against the Saints in the playoffs ;D

 

[TheValkyries]

I liked Alex Smith's quote better:

"This is the honest truth: I could absolutely care less on yards per game. I think that's a totally overblown stat. Because if you're losing games in the second half, guess what? You're like the Carolina Panthers and you're going no-huddle the entire second half and, yeah, Cam Newton threw for a lot of 300-yard games, that's great. You're not winning, though."

Yeah, you've ran the same argument before. I remember looking up the fact that the Panthers were leading at the half in something like 12 of their games, only to lose late in the 4th Quarter or ultimately win.

So Cam isn't running the no-huddle the entire second half playing catch up, since the other teams were the ones in fact having to catch up.

Thanks for playing though.

P.S. Alex Smith using the "I play to win games" card as an excuse for not throwing a lot of yards makes me suspect of his drive to be better. You aren't putting effecient points on the board and relying on your Elite Defense to win games, basically meaning you put the bare minimum effort in to win, and you're ok with that? Not cool.

 

[Steeler]

you make it sound like alex smith is ultimately in control of how often pass plays are called and what the gameplan is.

lol

smith did enough to not lose games and usually (though i don't have the sabermetrics or whatever) positively contribute last season, at least let him have that. the niners coaching staff was smart enough to play to their strengths all season long (well, except for the saints game i guess). that's why you didn't see alex smith do much work. because he's not a strength of that team anyway. i mean, you can blame him all you want for not being elite or particularly good, but you can't blame him for "playing to win" and accusing him of putting in the bare minimum of effort when 1. none of us are in the niner organization observing him 2. he performed adequately 3. he really did improve quite a bit last year. so yeah, i'd say he's not great, but it seems like he has put in the work necessary to make a notable leap from huge draft bust to "adequate starting QB". not a lot of QBs with his draft position and previous NFL track record accomplish that. credit him and the coaching staff.

 

[Wikey]

Stumbled across this:

http://www.theusfl.net/faq.html

 

[TheValkyries]

Steeler, don't get me wrong, I'm a strong supporter of Alex Smith and his performance last year. Nor am I questioning A. Smith's effort when I say "bare minimum to win." What I'm questioning his ability to recognize that his wins were only close because he couldn't effectively drive down the field. If he could improve in this aspect he'd give his team even greater odds of winning. Acting as if his performance was good enough, and then labeling the area where he performed the worst as being an overrated stat is TERRIBLE in terms of someone who should be wanting to improve.

It'd be like Tebow saying "Man, QB Accuracy really is an overrated stat. I won games without it."

 

[DM]

From Peter King's MMQB:

Well, here are two stats that refute what Smith said. One: Newton threw for more yards in the first half of games last year (2,071) than he did in the second half of games (1,980). And, though this might be a misleading and/or selective stat, Newton passed for only 523 yards when the Panthers were getting waxed last year -- when they trailed by between nine and 16 points. In theory, what Smith said sounds correct. But in practice, with Newton last year, I just don't think it was true.

Nuff said.

 

[some hero]

From Peter King's MMQB:



Nuff said.

Kind of late but what did you think of the Bills paying a defensive end coming off an injury 100 million dollars? Would you have preffered them drafting a pass rusher instead? Or even trying to make a move for Osi(who is a little onesided but is also cheaper)?