Team Underrated [OU Special HO]

[GaRgAnt]

...Okay, if you DO put SubSplit Gengar in, make sure you replace Starmie with it, not Celebi.

Reasons being:

1. All offensive teams like paralysis support, okay? It slows down revengers; nobody likes their <insert sweeper name here> killed by, say, Scarfrachi. Unless it's a priority spammer, you want to paralyze them in some way so that they can be slowed down and killed.

2. Though teams like this eat Gliscor for breakfast... wait a minute, after you replace Gengar you don't get easy Gliscor killing, right?

Nope. The Tinkerbell set I gave you will easily OHKO with Leaf Storm any day of the week, and it doesn't require Stealth Rock. Maybe on the really defensive variants you need it, but you obviously have SR and therefore shouldn't have any issues at all.

3. Calm Mind Raikou has one problem that's screaming to be exploited- Scarftar eats it for breakfast. I am replacing Starmie for Gengar- At least recommending it- because Starmie is Scarftar bait if it successfully predicts anything except a water-type move. Raikou has the same issues, and will handily fall to any Stone Edge launched and can't KO even the Scarftar fast enough even if Stone Edge misses the first time(Or maybe the Scarftar will spam Crunch) thanks to that Sandstorm boost.

These days, Gengar pretty much all carry Substitute due to Scarftar's dominance; this will stop Gengar from becoming Pursuit bait and enable Gengar to bash the Tar first. Besides, perfect coverage is too good to miss (Ghost and Fighting? Yes please). Oh, and Calm Mind Luke makes me think of a big, red-winged, blue Dragon with Intimidate known to Dance and make the ground shake violently...

So, what I recommend here is to change Starmie to SubSplit Gengar and keep Ice Beam on Empoleon.

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

So far so good. I'll update the OP after one more test.
Gengar hasn't been involved in many of my battles yet. Hopefully I'll get to use it soon.

So far it's only hax that seems to get me =\

EDIT: Why Signal Beam >> Hidden Power [Grass]?
With Hidden Power [Grass] I'm not walled by Swampert that might end my sweep. Plus, Signal Beam helps with Psychic and Dark types which Shadow Ball and Infernape demolish.

EDIT2: Would Shaymin be an option >> Celebi?

 

[SirCumsAlot]

I recently just beat you with this team while laddering. One main thing is it's an all Special attack team. My Blissey basically main handled this entire team. Close Combat on Infernape can't kill Blissey. I recommend using Focus Blast with a +2 Boost it will KO Suicune, and Vaporeon. You should try to add in a Physical attacker it would help your team a lot more taking care of Physical walls.

 

[coolguy31337]

I would tend to agree that neither raikou nor CM lucario are very good on a specially based HO team (having tried using them myself). Although fast, I also would agree that scarftar is a huge problem (as is anyone else faster packing ground/dark moves). CM lucario is too slow and usually doesn't get enough CM boosts to sweep so I wouldn't recommend using it.

For the most part, gliscor is not a threat - it's outsped and ohko'd by every member of the team except zelf and jolteon. nape has +2 fire blasts, although unboosted fire blasts will often also KO. empoleon survives an EQ with no Atk EVs and it often puts him in petaya range anyways. Celebi has leaf storm. Subsplit Gengar 2KOs (You probably would have a sub up).

Infernape's CC does 88%-104% to bold 252 HP/252 Def bliss. Even if the rest of his team has trouble, I don't see exactly how nape can't kill bliss.

 

[GaRgAnt]

Growth Shaymin is only good on Suspect, where Mence is not present. Oh, and people- Mence isn't going anywhere.

Would it be helpful to maybe move enough EVs from Special Attack to Attack in order to secure the KO on Blissey after Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers? After a Nasty Plot Infernape's special attack is going to skyrocket anyways, so I don't see why that much investment will pay off.

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

Infernape can OHKO Blissey without any Atk EVs with Naive nature.

I just feel like Celebi is too defensive for this team, all the other pokemon hit hard but after Leaf Storm Celebi doesn't hit as hard and has to switch.

 

[GoldDraconian]

Yeah I would just like to confirm:
244 Atk vs 130 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 630 - 744 (88.24% - 104.20%)
That's 0 attack Naive Infernape vs. fully physically bulky Bliss, and it's a OHKO after SR.
That said, if your team can handle Blissey without needing Infernape to do 100% with one attack (+2 Focus Blast does ~60% vs. 4/252+ Blissey), Focus Blast does have some value for killing bulky waters. +2 Focus Blast destroys both Suicune and Vaporeon in one shot after SR, whereas obviously Close Combat doesn't come close. If you're going for water-walled, this may be a consideration.

Are the screens really that useful for you on this team? I have never used screens on special HO, and a lot of the pokes seem like they may be too frail to use them properly. One option I would like to offer for your consideration, if the screens are not too valuable to you, is Heatran lead, as it lures in both Blissey and bulky waters and asplodes on them. There's also the option of using SubTran somewhere else in the team, although losing Jolteon for it is kind of scary because it can leave you exceedingly weak to enemy Jolteons and generally anything faster than your team.

I think the direction of being walled by waters is a good plan, but you need to be careful to make sure you can kill both them and Blisseys. Infernape and Heatran are two of the best pokes at this, so being able to fit them both in seems attractive to me.

Would also like to add, PM me or find me on Shoddy if you want to throw ideas around in a chat rather than forum format- we've talked before, as you may recall.

 

[Congratulations]

Very nice team but just a little nit pick on ape go focus blast > cc focus blast 2HKOs bliss after a NP, also celebi dosent belong you could use offensive cune over it they have similar resistances and behind screens it can set up on almost anything other than that I really like the team.

 

[GaRgAnt]

...Suicune has similar resistances with Celebi? Are you serious, am I reading that wrong, or did you just make yourself look bad? :/

I understand that you may feel Celebi isn't instrumental in keeping tempo and can slow it down, but to have someone that doesn't die in 3 turns is a boon onto itself (Unless its Empy, in which it survives the number of turns equal to the number of people left to kill)

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

I've been considering GoldDraconian's suggestion of not have Dual Screen. Having would definitely in getting rid of Blissey/bulky waters. I've also considered using Azelf as a sweeper >> Jolteon. I'd have to ability to Explode on Blissey, and Grass Knot any water type that comes in.

Any thoughts?

 

[Congratulations]

...Suicune has similar resistances with Celebi? Are you serious, am I reading that wrong, or did you just make yourself look bad? :/

I understand that you may feel Celebi isn't instrumental in keeping tempo and can slow it down, but to have someone that doesn't die in 3 turns is a boon onto itself (Unless its Empy, in which it survives the number of turns equal to the number of people left to kill)

Actually yea I messed up I ment empoleon, but back on topic azelf sucks outside of the lead role and why no screens? How would that help you? Also why not rachi over celebii? Scizor cleanly sweeps you, and you could run wish rachi? it checks scizor and works better on offesive teams than celebi.

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

I'm not sure if this team needs WishCMRachi since it's HO.
Maybe SubCMRach >> WishCMRachi? That was I can ease the prediction a bit and scout my opponent.

About Azelf, wouldn't Nasty Plot Azelf be able to be a nice sweeper? It's already got high speed and special attack. It also has access to Explosion which could be used to KO Blissey.

 

[Congratulations]

Yea but it gets OHKOd by everything, and makes you more scizor weak with rocks it can OHKO and its really useless outside of the lead roll.

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

But isn't that the point of HO?

If Scizor were to come in and OHKO with whatever move it had, I'd be able to go into Infernape and set up as it flees. Wouldn't that be good if Ape got +2 on the switch and began sweeping?

 

[GaRgAnt]

Comp... I don't want to sound rude, but you're not making any sense. Hyper offense is notorious for the tendancy of its players to let sweepers die in order to get new ones in fresh, and to keep up tempo until the end by bashing everything like a mofo.

Wish Jirachi slows tempo. It allows for your opponent to think straight for a change. If that is a good thing in hyper offense, then I must be on the wrong planet. Wish Jirachi is countered easily by Swampert, Metagross, Heatran, and Hippowdon (At least, right before it's gotten two Calm Minds, where its sole counter is Swampert after it has) and anything carrying Earthquake. Because Wish has delayed activation anyways, it would be far better for him to simply run Superachi, but Superachi is... Slow and still gets mauled by Heatran.

Since people are telling you to drop Celebi (I think it's a great choice here, being able to smooth the road for sweeps as well as punch holes with an STAB Life Orb boosted Leaf Storm) go with...

*ahem*

Nasty Plot Togekiss.

You have Jolteon to soak up any electric-type moves. Togekiss learns Aura Sphere to wreck the Rock-types that aim to bash it *COUGH*Tyranitar*COUGH*; There's also the insanely annoying Air Slash flinch thing. It takes care of bulky waters nicely as well- Vaporeon should die after maybe three Nasty Plotted Air Slashes.

Go with the Smogon set http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/togekiss but just to make your life easier, I recommend scrapping Roost for Thunder Wave.

 

[TheAmazingFlygon]

This is more likely subjective: special HO do not work as well as physical HO for the fact that most good special sweepers aren't able to set up anything and for the fact that Blissey walls 5 pokémons on your team - adding to that the fact that with SR in play, LO and possibly SS, Infernape dies rather quickly. However I would consider switching Jolteon for a CM raikou. Granted it is slower, but it does have the ability to set up and sweep which Jolteon does not have (yes charge beam allows you to set up, but it is far form being a reliable set up move IMO). Another thing I would like to point out is that Suicune could definitely be a sweeper of choice that you could use (maybe remplacing Empoleon?). Suicune should at least definitly be considered; with the screens up, nothing can take it down. If you do you it I would suggest you use a sweeper set: Timid, Max Speed/ Max SpA with Calm Mind/Surf/HP electric/Ice beam or something like that. Also, I believe your celebi doesn't have much to do in your team and as most special attakers are really fast, T-Wave is not useful. I would remplace Celebi with a Nasty Plot Togekiss; I think it would be a way better sweeper than celebi; it definitely can tear apart some teams once you are able to set up a Nasty Plot unlike celebi which IMO does not have the high enough spA to sweep.

 

[Bribery]

But isn't that the point of HO?

If Scizor were to come in and OHKO with whatever move it had, I'd be able to go into Infernape and set up as it flees. Wouldn't that be good if Ape got +2 on the switch and began sweeping?

That's a pretty bad idea. Scizor will most likely Bullet Punch on Azelf. Even though Infernape resists Bullet Punch, CB Scizor's does 36% min to it. It can easily get two Bullet Punches in if you try to set up on it.


First, I don't think Dual Screens are necessary for this team. You're using a lot of frail sweepers so I don't think they can take advantage of them properly. There are quite a few options you could try. Standard/Colbur Azelf or Aerodactyl are great leads that fit the suicide offense of this team. Heatran also works for getting rid of Blissey/Bulky Waters. You could also try a Spike and Stealth Rock lead like Skarmory. The extra hazards are always useful for an offensive team.

IMO Celebi is the weak link of the team. Personally I think Shaymin does the offensive job much better since it has Seed Flare, and it isn't Pursuit bait. LO Shaymin is one of my favorite sets and it catches a lot of players off guard, especially when their switch in gets nailed by Seed Flare's -2 SDef effect.

Shaymin @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Ice
- Rest

HP Ice is mainly for Salamence. You could use HP Fire for Scizor/Skarmory but if they get hit by the Seed Flare SDef drop, Earth Power or HP Ice will usually finish them off.

 

[GoldDraconian]

Jirachi's ground weakness makes it difficult to fit into this team because it's not fast (by special HO standards) and doesn't deal out damage quickly. I think you can build special-heavy teams which make good use of it but not in purer forms of HO.

Since I haven't played dual screens on special HO I cannot say from experience whether or not they are worth it. However, unlike physical HO which gets to use pokes with a lot of natural bulk like Tyranitar, Metagross, and especially Kingdra (Kingdra under screens can just get so many DDs off and just not die), special HO really does not have the same flavor. You get a good deal more natural speed and you can deal more damage immediately, but even under screens guys like Infernape and Jolteon are just not doing to stand up to neutral attacks with reasonable power for very long. Tyranitar under screens will survive Surfs, Infernape under screens will not. In order to get a similar value out of screens, the team would have to be using things like WishRachi and Suicune- which still makes a good team but a different kind.

Given this, I think it's at least worth thinking about trying to get some more offensive punch instead.

EDIT: Several posts appeared while I was trying to post this, I just want to say that even Modest LO Suicune has always seemed lacking in power to me on special HO teams. Suicune is a good Pokemon, but I've never really had any success with it in this context.

I've used Togekiss as well with mixed results, but it's worth considering since it's a pure special attacker that still has the potential to kill Blissey. That is a good way to sneak Thunder Wave onto the team as well.

 

[TheAmazingFlygon]

You forget that Scarftar exists, bud. :/

Granted Jolteon is a better choice than Raikou if you count Scarf t-tar in, however none of those actually does damage to it. Therefore, I could say the same for Jolteon. Togekiss can simply T-Wave Tyranitar on the switch, however that, I agree, does not solve the Tyranitar problem, but it can help with proper skills. But also Celebi is not a solution to Tyranitar although it is better than Togekiss for dealing with Tyranitars.

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

Since I currently don't have access to Shoddy right now, I won't be able to test out Togekiss. Though, I agree, Thunder Wave >> Roost might be more useful since this is HO and maximum damage output is all that's really required.

The idea of using Suicune sounds promising, but usually I don't have screens staying up long enough to let me fully set up. My opponents usually try to stall out screens which is a major pain.

EDIT:

@Bribery: I've been testing Shaymin actually. I'm running this:

Shaymin @ Life Orb
Natural Cure
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Growth

It's not standard, but Growth does aid in boosting my SpA, any thoughts?

 

[TheAmazingFlygon]

Since I currently don't have access to Shoddy right now, I won't be able to test out Togekiss. Though, I agree, Thunder Wave >> Roost might be more useful since this is HO and maximum damage output is all that's really required.

The idea of using Suicune sounds promising, but usually I don't have screens staying up long enough to let me fully set up. My opponents usually try to stall out screens which is a major pain.

Well it's a major pain, but it's the good move to do, usually. Putting that aside, stalling screens with Suicune is playing with knifes; if you desire to stall screens with suicune, it will get a bunch of Calm Minds and will surely get something down, however if you do not stall them Suicune will sweep your team much more easely. For that reason I believe you won't have the stall screens problem with suicune, although don't quote me on that. I think you should test Suicune over Empoleon like I considered you once you get your access to shoddy back.

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

Currently testing the following sets in replacement of Celebi:

Shaymin @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk/4 SDef/252 Spe
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Growth
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire]

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Might it be better to use Suicune >> Empoleon instead of Celebi?

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/152 SpA/104 Spe
Nature: Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Auro Sphere
- Air Slash
- Thunder Wave

Also, I'd like to point out that cosmicexplorer has played around with my original team, and he used a Jirachi lead. Any thoughts on the set he used?

Jirachi @ Light Clay
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head

EDIT: I'm thinking about assing Explosion >> Taunt on Azelf

 

[Jukain-Arashi]

Just edited the OP, the changes made were for the Celebi spot. After doing some testing on Shoddy today, I felt that Togekiss was the best Pokemon for that spot.

Any thoughts/suggestions are still welcome, I'm sure there are a few changes I could make to this team, such as the lead.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Small thing I noticed. You mention Focus Blast as part of Gengar's move-set, but you have it listed as Focus Punch. You might want to change that.

 

[SlottedPig]

I really dislike the use of Togekiss on this team; it slows down the tempo of this team and just looks ugly. I recommend switching it to one of the following anti-bulky waters (they're nightmares for Infernape and Empoleon);

- Life Orb Zapdos ; incredibly hard to counter without Blissey
- Life Orb Shaymin ; cracks through walls and after a -2 SpD from Seed Flare almost every not-Blissey will be KOd by either Earth Power, Air Slash, or Hidden Power [Ice]
- Life Orb Roserade ; incredibly strong initial Leaf Storms and Leech Seed can somewhat nullify the threat of Blissey, Spikes

EDIT: didn't see the second page and see that you were already using shaymin. But don't use growth it sucks :x