Team Kiss Of Death -- OU RMT

[YTP]

Team Kiss Of Death

Intro
Hey. So here is a team that is very fun to use. I made this team with Philip7086 as a result of the apprentice program. The story of how I got Phil as a tutor is very long... so in short. I signed up for the previous Battling101 program only to get MoP, get ignored the entire time, PMd Jimbo, he gave me a free slot in the next round, he lets me request a tutor, I chose Philip and here we are! So before I get into the RMT, I'll just type a bit about the team. This team is based around a core of Togekiss + Jirachi + Latias. A very cool core, I might add! Togekiss is the Nasty Plot variation, but with a small twist! Instead of the standard Aurasphere or Thunder Wave, we have chosen Heal Bell. And Jirachi is a little different too, because instead of Substitute, we have Wish which supports Life Orb + 4 attacks Latias beautifully. All in all, this is a great core and I discourage anyone from touching it, besides minor changes to EV spreads / Natures. Changes in movesets would be cool too but nothing that completely throws off the initial core. This team is named after the Togekiss... which I like to call the Kiss Of Death because of its ability to completely wreck full stall... (semi stall with fucking scarfrachi is a lot harder to wreck...).It got me to around 1510 at one point where I promptly fell to hax... eh I still count that as a success. I haven't made a team that got me that far in a while anyways ^_^. This team is pretty much based off the premise of surprise factor and underused sets. Philip emphasised how important it was to use a few unorthodox sets because standard sets are like the main ones everybody prepares for. So by using surprising sets like the ones in this team, my opponent has to guess as to whats next!

In Depth

Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Magma Storm

This unorthadox set, believe it or not, works suprisingly well as an anti lead. Being able to quickly down Metagross and Azelf leads, which honestly are the only leads that should be put in these "How it fares against other leads" lists.This Heatran also has the added bonus of being able to Taunt set up sweepers,DDLO Gyarados could easily sweep this team when its played well, however given how I play against him he has almost no choice but to make the obvious moves, often giving me the upper hand. I can also temporarily prevent the use of Stealth Rock with Taunt, since I can shut down slower, bulkier leads. Heatran has no problem setting up Stealth Rock with his plethora of resistances and immunities. These resistances and immunites were one of the major reasons he was used on this team. And he is able to check Rotom-A, which was previously, and still is, an annoyance to this team. I suppose I should explain Magma Storm... well quite frankly, I didn't want Taunting Azelf to set up. So if they use Taunt turn one, they are OHKOd through their focus sash thanks to the recoil damage after using Magma Storm. The lack of leftovers allows me to feign a Choice set, almost making opposing Heatran drool as they switch in to take the fire attack, only to be nailed by Earth Power after attempting to predict a switch and using a fire attack. This helps in two ways... one: It gets a kill lol. two: it gets a kill on Heatran. This is MAJOR as Jirachi absolutely despises Heatran, thanks to its extremely powerful STAB fire ttacks that can even bypass Calm Mind boosts.
---

Togekiss (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 228 HP/204 Spd/76 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Heal Bell

Honestly... my favorite special sweeper at the moment. This thing runs through pure stall like nobodies business. Bliss can no longer Toxic me to use residual damage to its advantage. The speed EV's outrun standard Celebi and Zapdos... allowing me to Air Slash before they can Perish song or Thunderbolt respectively. They also outrun standard stallish rotom. Heal Bell Togekiss also has great synegy with the rest of this team. One of the main things that stop bulky mence and jirachi are status. I even choose to pursuit non heat rotom formes with scizor! Love this thing... really do :3. So yeah after a few nasty plots nothing is really gonna take a hit from this guy without losing upwards of 30%. Might sound kinda bad... but considering most of the stuff that Togekiss is staying in on is slower than it... those numbers start to look better. The first part of the KissTiasAchi combo. With TTar being eliminated by Latias, as well as various steels, this Togekiss has no need for Aura Sphere. Oh and heatran does a nice job of removing steels as well ^_^. And thus, supports with Heal Bell. A really great set that I encourage you all to try. 228 HP is a lefties number :3.

I suppose that I give the impression that Togekiss is this thing that just heals my team. Well no... in a sense it is the main core of this team... it makes everything work. One of the major problems for offensive teams is status... I can freely heal status with Togekiss and sweep with this set as well. This togekiss can singlehandedly sweep IPL stall (and it has... twice). Just a testament to how this thing can shred full stall... which to be honest, rips the rest of this team apart.
---

Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Oh my... if you have ever seen a poke hit so much of the metagame hard like this thing does... please tell me... this thing is basically like an electivire... except people dont use direct counters to it (well people end up with direct evire counters even if that isnt the intention). Instead they use Scizor and Tyranitar. On the switchin, TTar and Scizor both are blasted. I do not fear Bullet Punches from Scizor, as Latias usually makes its way in early game. Scizor usually Pursuit / U-Turn early game, not wanting to fall prey to the infamous Magnezone combo. Removing this helps out Jirachi a ton. Its great to not have to waste turns wishing to be able to take a CB U-Turn from Scizor. Surf hits bulky grounds like Gliscor and Hippowdon. Grass Knot blasts heavier bulky waters like Pert and Suicune away.

Latias is the second part of the KissTiasAchi combo. It is known around the team as... "the lure". Many people think of Latias as an ever lasting CM Tank. Well with this we wanted to be able to rid ourselves of counters for CM Rachi and NP Togekiss. Latias has just been excellent. I dont worry too much about the lack of recovery. People use Choice sets and they have no recovery so heh why not. Big plus here is that I have the luxury of Wish which heals up Latias if need be.

---

Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 160 HP/176 Atk/4 Spd/168 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn / Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Pursuit

Revenge is a dish best served cold? Well if you've played OU for the past few months, you'd know that Scizor is hot! Number one used poke on standard for a reason. With the addition to bug bite, things just keep getting better. You see I have Bug Bite listed as an option, its just for hitting stuff on the switch much harder. Probably wont make the change thanks to the unbelievable use that U-Turn has. Here I am running a dual priority scizor. Meant to hit stuff like DDLO Gyara and DD Kingdra when they are weak. It has worked pretty well, I must say. Although I haven't had to resort to it too much. Pursuit is for weakening Blissey on the switch. You have no idea how many Blissey's Heatran has taunted, magma stormed, went to scizor, pursuited and put it into Latias's KO Range later in the match. Bullet Punch is a great move on Scizor that allows him to switch into DDMence's Outrage and blast it for upwards of 50%.
---

Salamence (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 212 HP/40 Atk/176 Def/80 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

BulkyMence -- now the only salamence set I am using. My goodness... I thought Bulky Gyara was scary! Imagine a bulky gyara that DOESNT care about getting statused (although burns are annoying) and still dancing. Then.. Roost. This Mence is truly a undermined beauty and I think you all should try it out ^_^. No Outrage here, as that takes away from the safeness of using this set. An interesting fact is that with no outrage, Scizor can no longer check mence as it can not muster enough damage up to hurt Mence significantly while mence can easily OHKO it after enough boosts. Roost takes away from the ice weakness, temporarily of course. The EVs give me a lefties number and enough speed to outrun adamant lucario.

Mainly a Lucario + Scizor check. Despite this teams very large weakness to DDTar and Agiligross, I chose this over Gliscor simply for Intimidate. I have managed to learn how to work around weaknesses like DDTar and Agiligross, but Gyarados could sweep this team with its eyes closed. One boost and it outruns the entire team and just about OHKOs everything :(. SD Ice Punch Lucario could be a bother though...
---

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/184 Spd/72 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon

And the main poke (hah i bet you were expecting star of the show.). This Rachi is the last piece of the KissTiasAchi core. Thanks smogon for making Iron Head Rachi so popular. You guys are truly the best! With Wish on this set I can bluff the old DP favorite wish support set. This makes Skarmory come in like nobodies business. When they try to set up spikes... BAM Thunderbolt. It doesn't OHKO usually.. but its enough to scare Skarmory away or just making it death fodder. Calm Mind + Wish allows me to combat Crocune in war and come out on top, provided Psychic gets the sdef lowering. I sware Rachi always gets critted though ;-;. I run 184 speed to outrun Gliscor that run 180 speed to outun CM Rachi. Hah talk about stomped. I use Flash Cannon over Psychic as the main merit of Psychic is hitting Lucario. However, with Thunderbolt I can take down Lucario after it has been intimidated. So while Lucario looks to be a menace to this team, it rarely sweeps unless both Jirachi and Salamence have been eliminated and even then I can use Scizor to take it out after enough CCs. Flash cannon allows me to remove the babiri berry from Tar meaning that Scizor can revenge it. A great way to end matches ^_^.

~Fin.

Stay tuned for threat list!

 

[Philip7086]

It was a pleasure building this team with you, and I hope I have opened your mind to all the possibilities that exist in competitive Pokemon, rather than just 6 standards. I just wanted to note to potential team raters that this team is somewhat weak against Agiligross and DD Babiri Tyranitar (but DD TTar can only set up on one Pokemon). We tried fixing this by changing Heatran lead to Scarf Ape, but that didn't turn out so well. If anybody can try and pin-point how to fix that, it would be much appreciated by both of us ^_^.

Aside from those two Pokemon, this team really seems to do very well, and it is a team I can be proud of co-making :)

 

[Delko]

Hello

This is a very nice team, congrats ^^

I have read it and I liked it, it is well written and everything is explained perfect. But I do have some suggestions.

- I really think Scizor should have Super Power, I would replace it with Pursuit or Quick Attack.

- You could also replace Dragon Claw with Outrage on Salamence, it will deal a lot of damage to even resisted pokemon. Heatran could take care of Scizor.

Not much to say about the rest. I hope I helped (a little)!

 

[YTP]

Hello

This is a very nice team, congrats ^^

I have read it and I liked it, it is well written and everything is explained perfect. But I do have some suggestions.

- I really think Scizor should have Super Power, I would replace it with Pursuit or Quick Attack.

- You could also replace Dragon Claw with Outrage on Salamence, it will deal a lot of damage to even resisted pokemon. Heatran could take care of Scizor.

Not much to say about the rest. I hope I helped (a little)!

I listed the reasons for not using Outrage. Also, since I have more of an opportunity to get more boosts, the confusion will screw me more times than not. Superpower is worth a test I suppose.

 

[Philip7086]

Hello

This is a very nice team, congrats ^^

I have read it and I liked it, it is well written and everything is explained perfect. But I do have some suggestions.

- I really think Scizor should have Super Power, I would replace it with Pursuit or Quick Attack.

- You could also replace Dragon Claw with Outrage on Salamence, it will deal a lot of damage to even resisted pokemon. Heatran could take care of Scizor.

Not much to say about the rest. I hope I helped (a little)!

Dragon Claw is because so many people rely on Mence being locked into Outrage to revenge kill it. It is very important. We opted for Quick Attack on Scizor because we wanted a decent check on DD Kingdra. Also, what would you say Superpower helps us beat that we currently are not taking out? JW.

 

[Delko]

It was a pleasure building this team with you, and I hope I have opened your mind to all the possibilities that exist in competitive Pokemon, rather than just 6 standards. I just wanted to note to potential team raters that this team is somewhat weak against Agiligross and DD Babiri Tyranitar (but DD TTar can only set up on one Pokemon). We tried fixing this by changing Heatran lead to Scarf Ape, but that didn't turn out so well. If anybody can try and pin-point how to fix that, it would be much appreciated by both of us ^_^.

Aside from those two Pokemon, this team really seems to do very well, and it is a team I can be proud of co-making :)

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf/ timid/ serene grace
4 Def, 252 Spe, 252 SAtk

- Air Slash
- Aura Sphere
- Fire Blast
- Trick

--> Aura Sphere takes care of DD-tar, which you'll still outspeed after one DD. Air Slash is because you are even faster then the Kiss you use now, so the flinch can affect even faster pokes. Fire Blast is to take on Steel types and could take Agilygross. Trick is to cripple special walls switch-ins.

Super Power could let you take out Heatran switch-ins on the switch. It also lets you do more damage to opposing Scizor.

 

[Philip7086]

That's an interesting suggestion. It really deteriorates the core of the team though, and makes the team as a whole somewhat stall-weak (except for rachi who can hurt stall pretty bad too). Still worth a try I suppose.

 

[FaytalDeath]

The Togekiss is a very nice addition, especially if Heatran prevents SR users.
I feel however this team could use some ParaSupport to help out.
Setting up some entry hazards might make it easier for Togekiss to go all out.

I also feel like Latias should have a Scarf set instead of the LO Set.

 

[YTP]

The Togekiss is a very nice addition, especially if Heatran prevents SR users.
I feel however this team could use some ParaSupport to help out.
Setting up some entry hazards might make it easier for Togekiss to go all out.

I also feel like Latias should have a Scarf set instead of the LO Set.

We tried Rachi as a Para supporting variant and it kinda failed. Since when is Stealth Rock not an entry hazard xD.

Scarf Set could be worthwhile for at least locking Metagross and TTar into one move but that takes away from the core a lot.

 

[Bribery]

Ooh, I like that Magma Storm idea on Heatran, but is it reliable? I could see Heatran losing to Occa-Metagross leads if it misses. If it misses on Taunt Azelf, it's still going to set up Stealth Rock.

Have you considered using a physically bulky Jirachi spread? (Bold, 252 Hp/252 Def). I use it on my team, it's basically the same one from Team Sugarless GiRL by Earthworm and jumpluff. It turns Gliscor's Earthquake into a 3HKO, which could be useful against ones that run extra speed to outrun CM Jirachi. It can also survive a +1 LO Earthquake from Gyarados and OHKO back with Thunderbolt.

I also do see a bit of a CM Latias weakness, especially since your own Latias will auto-lose against the standard one. Scizor is really your only check and it can't really switch in safely.

So team weaknesses are:

- Agiligross
- DDTar
- Gyarados
- CM Latias
- Rotom-A

You could use your own Rotom-A, preferrably Scarf Heat Rotom, to cover these threats. While it isn't going to do anything to DD Tyranitar, it can Trick Choice Scarf and force it to get locked into Crunch. Then Scizor or Heatran can proceed to take it out. It can also do the same to Latias, possibly restricting it to Dragon Pulse. Rotom-H resists every possible attack that Agiligross runs. Timid Scarf Rotom outspeeds all +1 Gyarados, including Jolly. Lastly, Scarf Rotom-H can take out the slower physically bulky Rotoms with Shadow Ball.

I'm not sure what to replace since your team has a lot of synergy. However, I think Salamence is the best choice since Rotom-H also covers Lucario and Scizor, which is mainly what you use Salamence for anyways.


Great team overall and nice use of originality. I am so trying out that Heatran set on my team :P.

 

[Philip7086]

hmm.. Scarf Rotom over Mence is an excellent suggestion actually. Though, I would keep Jirachi's spread if I changed Mence to Scarf Rotom, just so I could have a decent Lucario check in case Rotom gets Pursuited (which scarf versions often do, and Luke is often paired with Tyranitar). Thank you for the rate, that is definitely something worth testing out.

 

[Scofield]

Pretty nice team. On 4 attack latias, have you considered running expert belt instead of LO? I imagine that you'd mostly be hitting everything for super effective anyways, and the recoil can really suck without roost. I'd also imagine that this allows you to bluff a choice item and possibly net a surprise kill here or there. Love the use of magma storm heatran, I was just thinking about using it myself last night.

 

[YTP]

Ah, TAY suggested that when I let him use the team. I watched him use it and he netted a few surprise kill.

The ScarfRotom idea must of slipped through our heads lol

 

[august]

Hello.

I really like this team, it's extremely solid. However, I do have a few suggestions. First off, have you ever tried CM 3 Attack Jirachi over your current Substitute set? This allows Jirachi to have a huge advantage over stall with Swampert / Hippowdon to stop the normal CM Jirachi set, and with Latias luring in Forretress and Scizor, you can still use Thunderbolt for Gyarados. Jirachi can also revenge kill Lucario (namely Jolly Ice Punch Luke whom you have trouble with) much easier when running this set. You can still hit Tyranitar extremely hard with a Calm Minded Grass Knot, which will still allow Scizor to revenge kill it with Bullet Punch. If you are interested, here is the set:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 80 HP/176 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Grass Knot
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt

Also, have you ever considered Recover on Latias? I mean, having those 4 attacks to bludgeon away on the opponent midgame is great, but your team is going to have a lot of troubles with Choice Scarf Heatran and Nasty Plot Infernape without Recover. Togekiss is OHKO'd by NP Ape Fire Blast after Stealth Rock, and Salamence is as well iirc. Heatran can bludgeon away at Salamence with Fire Blast + SR easily building up, so I believe that using Recover over one of your attacking moves is probably for the better in this situation. Personally I would use it over Surf, as Sub Tran does not give your team nearly as much trouble as Scarf Tran and Infernape is going to be hurting after a Life Orb boosted Dragon Pulse anyway.

Hope I helped, gl and cool team Yoshi + Phil!

 

[YTP]

Thanks for the rate august. That Jirachi seems very interesting and I definately will test, as it covers all the roles that we wanted Jirachi to fill in one. And yes ScarfTran has given this team some issues so I will test recover on latias.

 

[FaytalDeath]

I meant like Paralyze and Poison going around, not Stealth Rocks. :D

 

[MetaNite]

Hi yoshi.

This team has a pretty large weakness to Life Orb Gyarados. Latias without Thunderbolt cannot OHKO, while a LO Stone Edge will come very close to OHKOing it (after SR and LO). Earthquake will kill Jirachi, while Stone Edge beats Togakiss and Salamence. Although at first, it may seem as though Gyarados is set up fodder for Salamence, due to its large bulk and Intimidate, I think you'll find it is the other way around, as Salamence must use the fairly weak Dragon Claw. One on one, Gyarados will win. However, you will probably then be able to revenge kill Gyarados with Quick Attack from Scizor, but this is far from reliable.

A simple way to overcome this is to give Latias Thunderbolt and some Hit Point EVs. Thunderbolt can replace Surf pretty well. As you said, Surf is for Gliscor and Hippowdon, both of which will not like a Grass Knot (in fact Hippo takes more from it) while Gliscor will often switch out anyway. The only kill you will lose is the immediate kill on Heatran and possibly Infernape, but both are likely to switch out, and chances are Heatran won't be OHKOed anyway. Thunderbolt will also help against Specially Defensive Skarmory, who will find a lot of chances to come in and set up Spikes. For instance, with Air Slash as Togakiss' only move, it can easily come in, set up and phaze you out. And of course, Scizor is easily walled by Skarmory. Even a +1 Jirachi won't kill Skarm with Thunderbolt, and since Mence lacks Fire Blast, it can wall it almost infinitely. Since you are running HP Fire, you can drop the Speed EVs just enough to beat MixApe, as you have no hope of beating opposing Latias anyway. 200 Def / 124 SpA / 184 Speed Timid, may seem like an extreme measure, and for the most part it is, but it is an optimal spread for beating Gyarados, as much more likely than not, you will survive a LO Stone Edge, KO back with Thunderbolt, and still be alive with 1 HP. The Defense EVs also mean you take 56% at the most from CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, which means even after Stealth Rock and some Life Orb recoil, you can still take the Bullet Punch and kill Scizor.

As others have suggested, a Choice scarf Rotom-H can work over Salamence. If you do choose this option, then I suggest using 248 HP EVs to more effectively counter Gyarados. However, Choice Scarf Rotom-H gives Dragon Dance Tyranitar a chance to set up, which would be bad. Those with Babiri Berry will run through this team. Your only Pokemon who can survive is Jirachi who will not OHKO with Flash Cannon. In order to beat Tyranitar, you'd have to sac Jirachi or Scizor (thus removing Tar's babiri berry) and then finishing it off with the other. Although there are some things you can change to counter Tyranitar, it be easier to just not let it set up. For this reason, I would not use Rotom-H over Salamence. You could of course go really wacko and give Scizor an Occa Berry, Salamence a rock resist berry, or make Jirachi a ScarfRachi, but I think this is a bit too specific. Something else you could do is replace Heatran with a Metagross, but Skarmory will really have fun with that unless you give Gross explosion.

Good luck yoshi.

EDIT: Best way I see to beat CM Latias (those with HP Fire) would be to give either Togakiss or Jirachi Thunder Wave. You could also give Scizor Occa berry... meh.

 

[YTP]

Where would that fit in though? It sounds like an interesting idea but its really hard to fit on a team like this. Rachi has a chance to paralyze with thunderbolt if that's worth anything, lol.

Updates from testing:

- The idea of Scarf Rotom-H over mence has been very worthwhile, he has saved me a few times. The only thing that really hurts is the lack of a second water resist... when you're going against Rain Dance that really hurts x_x. I've managed to beat most rain dance teams with prediction between Latias and Scizor though. Most likely will be implemented.

- Expert belt Latias did what it was supposed to do... get a few surprise kills. Worked well. Probably will be implemented.

--

Gonna test the idea of CM Three Attack Rachi.

EDIT: Thanks MetaNite. Will test.
EDIT2: I think Mence just may be more useful than Rotom-H after further testing. Gonna continue testing that. The Rachi has been great.

 

[Philip7086]

Hi yoshi.

This team has a pretty large weakness to Life Orb Gyarados. Latias without Thunderbolt cannot OHKO, while a LO Stone Edge will come very close to OHKOing it (after SR and LO). Earthquake will kill Jirachi, while Stone Edge beats Togakiss and Salamence. Although at first, it may seem as though Gyarados is set up fodder for Salamence, due to its large bulk and Intimidate, I think you'll find it is the other way around, as Salamence must use the fairly weak Dragon Claw. One on one, Gyarados will win. However, you will probably then be able to revenge kill Gyarados with Quick Attack from Scizor, but this is far from reliable.

A simple way to overcome this is to give Latias Thunderbolt and some Hit Point EVs. Thunderbolt can replace Surf pretty well. As you said, Surf is for Gliscor and Hippowdon, both of which will not like a Grass Knot (in fact Hippo takes more from it) while Gliscor will often switch out anyway. The only kill you will lose is the immediate kill on Heatran and possibly Infernape, but both are likely to switch out, and chances are Heatran won't be OHKOed anyway. Thunderbolt will also help against Specially Defensive Skarmory, who will find a lot of chances to come in and set up Spikes. For instance, with Air Slash as Togakiss' only move, it can easily come in, set up and phaze you out. And of course, Scizor is easily walled by Skarmory. Even a +1 Jirachi won't kill Skarm with Thunderbolt, and since Mence lacks Fire Blast, it can wall it almost infinitely. Since you are running HP Fire, you can drop the Speed EVs just enough to beat MixApe, as you have no hope of beating opposing Latias anyway. 200 Def / 124 SpA / 184 Speed Timid, may seem like an extreme measure, and for the most part it is, but it is an optimal spread for beating Gyarados, as much more likely than not, you will survive a LO Stone Edge, KO back with Thunderbolt, and still be alive with 1 HP. The Defense EVs also mean you take 56% at the most from CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, which means even after Stealth Rock and some Life Orb recoil, you can still take the Bullet Punch and kill Scizor.

As others have suggested, a Choice scarf Rotom-H can work over Salamence. If you do choose this option, then I suggest using 248 HP EVs to more effectively counter Gyarados. However, Choice Scarf Rotom-H gives Dragon Dance Tyranitar a chance to set up, which would be bad. Those with Babiri Berry will run through this team. Your only Pokemon who can survive is Jirachi who will not OHKO with Flash Cannon. In order to beat Tyranitar, you'd have to sac Jirachi or Scizor (thus removing Tar's babiri berry) and then finishing it off with the other. Although there are some things you can change to counter Tyranitar, it be easier to just not let it set up. For this reason, I would not use Rotom-H over Salamence. You could of course go really wacko and give Scizor an Occa Berry, Salamence a rock resist berry, or make Jirachi a ScarfRachi, but I think this is a bit too specific. Something else you could do is replace Heatran with a Metagross, but Skarmory will really have fun with that unless you give Gross explosion.

Good luck yoshi.

EDIT: Best way I see to beat CM Latias (those with HP Fire) would be to give either Togakiss or Jirachi Thunder Wave. You could also give Scizor Occa berry... meh.

Gyara can usually be handled with the use of Intimidate and Latias. If not, after it is dwindled down a bit, Quick Attack (for Orb versions) will suffice. Also, Scarf Rotom doesn't really allow DD TTar to fully set up on it. The point is to switch Rotom out on the DD, and then force TTar to attack vs. something like Scizor. Then Rotom can come back in, outspeed, and Trick or use HP Fight or something.

Also, just a note to you personally, GK barely tickles Gliscor, though in this situation, Dragon Pulse does a good number on it anyways.

And to August's suggestions: I was really torn between Recover and Surf for the longest time. The thing that bugged me, was without Surf, this team did not have a cold counter to Heatran. I do agree that Recover is overall the better option, but I wanted to try out 4 attack Orb Latias with Wish support from Rachi to see if it could work out, seeing as both can freely switch between eachother with their resistances. I will recommend here for YTP to switch to Recover Latias, but I do not think changing the Jirachi would be a good idea. Right now Rachi serves as a last ditch resort to beating stall should something happen to Togekiss. I do not feel like the coverage gained with Grass Knot surpasses the utility of having a Wish user on the team. Though, admittedly, putting Recover on Latias diminishes the need for Wish slightly. Thanks for the rates guys.

 

[Flashstorm1]

After looking through this team, I can't really find much that will give this team immediate problems. You have a very solid and effective core, so I do not find a need to improve on that. However, I would like to offer some suggestions that could help the slight Gyarados weakness that MetaNite pointed out.

Now, I realize that you are keen on testing the SuperAchi set that is currently up in the opening post, but I'd actually think that switching back to a more defensive set with Wish would help out your team a bit more than your current set-up, if not to at least help with your Gyarados weakness.

The set itself looks like this:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Serene Grace | 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spe
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
Calm Mind / Wish / Psychic (or Flash Cannon) / Thunderbolt

Running this set ensures that Jirachi will be surviving a Life Orb Earthquake from +1 Gyarados about 70% of the time, and the large investment in Defense means that Swampert will deal an average of 46.53% with Earthquake, meaning that Jirachi could potentially set up on Swampert if you play your cards correctly. Heal Bell support from Togekiss also ensures that status will not be a problem.

In any case, if you change to the Jirachi set I mentioned, I think you could also go ahead and give this Salamence a try over your current set:

Salamence @ Leftovers
Intimidate | 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe
Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
Dragon Dance / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Roost

Using this spread over your current one gives your team a little bit of help in dealing with Special threats that Latias has trouble defending against, such as Rotom-A. This spread ensures that you can even set up on Swampert, which can only muster a maximum of 67% against Salamence with Ice beam. As with Jirachi, Rotom-A's Will-O-Wisp is unlikely to be a problem either so you can set up on it.

My main concern with implementing these changes is that Swords Dance Lucario could be a little more troublesome for your team. However, Salamence will never be KOed by a +1 LO Close Combat after Stealth Rock damage thanks to the investment in HP, and even then, you have Scizor as a decent check to Lucario after a few Defense drops (which you made note of yourself).

Another thing I suggest would be to test Lava Plume over Magma Storm on Heatran. Magma Storm's 70% accuracy is a bit risky to rely on, while Lava Plume's 100% accuracy + 30% Burn rate could easily help you against physical sweepers as well as getting that 1HKO on Azelf through the Focus Sash if you are lucky.

Anyways, very good team here. I hope my changes are of help.

P.S. Oh, and let me know if you are still up for building the suspect team with me!

 

[YTP]

Some very interesting alternative spread options there, Flashstorm1.

Lava Plume has been heavily considered for this team because of Gyara being able to come in on Heatran and set up (Assuming Jolly Dragon Dance). So It'll be tested for sure.

Will test and stuff.

P.S: I'm up for it if you are (its a sad, sad, day when I can't build teams alone ;o).

Also keep the rates coming!!!!

 

[Maci12]

This team is very solid and has some very powerful offensive and defensive cores. However, I think there are some changes you can make:

Heatran

• Fire Blast > Magma Storm. Fire Blast has 15% more accuracy, has the same power. You do lose the power to trap opposing pokemon, but as a lead, I don't see the value in that anyways.
• You say Taunt helps you against LO DD Gyarados. From my experience, they almost always run Jolly, meaning they beat your Taunt, get off a DD, and proceed to sweep your team. There are more effecient Taunters than Heatran if you want a Taunt lead (Azelf, Crobat, Aerodactyl, Weavile, Ambipom, the list goes on.)
• The lack of Leftovers does not feign a Choice set on LeadTran. If I see LeadTran I assume Shuca Berry. I would be far more surprised to see a ChoiceTran as a lead =P.

I would suggest running this Heatran over your current set:

Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)

~ Stealth Rock
~ Fire Blast
~ Hidden Power [Grass]
~ Will-O-Wisp

This set is much more affective and accomplishes the goals of your Heatran. Any Gyarados attempting to set up on you will be greeted with Will-O-Wisp, and switch out immediately. Hidden Power [Grass] allows you to 2HKO Swampert leads while they don't OHKO with STAB Water Attacks or STAB Ground Attacks. Fire Blast is the essential STAB which OHKOs Metagross & many other leads. This set alleviates the problems I mentioned and allows you to keep the goals you want.

I have no problems with the sets (because of the edits) up until...Salamence...

Salamence

I'm sorry, but based on the things you mentioned in the reasons you like Bulky DDmence (not revenge killable via Scizor, and able to really screw with Lucario), Bulky DDNite is better.

Dragonite is outclassed at full-out sweeping with straight DD, but Bulky DDMence & Nite are support sweepers, who open up gaps for other sweepers. With Dragonites significantly better bulk, this job is best left to him. It also gives you an answer to a Scarfed Iron Head-Happy Jirachi, as they deal poor damage & cannot flinch Dragonite. Without further ado. I present:

Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 224 HP/84 Atk/200 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)

~ Dragon Dance
~ Light Screen / Earthquake
~ Roost
~ Dragon Claw

This set clearly shows a huge advantage. Dragonite can set up on things like Vaporeon, Swampert, and Milotic, because with Light Screen, they all fail to 2HKO, meaning Roost + Dragon Dance stall them to hell and back. You are able to set up on a much wider variety of pokemon due to Light Screen & Dragonite's significantly better defensive capabilities, and with LS + DD + Roost, you can set up many more times, meaning that this Dragonite outpower BulkyMence who can't use Dragon Dance as many times.

Light Screen can be replaced with Earthquake for type coverage, but you lose the ability to set up on the bulky waters I mentioned. Even with Earthquake, BulkyDDnite has a significant advantage over BulkyMence.

Jirachi

I'm not sure if you had this set originally, but this set really kicks ass, especially on a team such as yours. I recently discovered this Jirachi set & love it: it allows it to act as a team player and a support sweeper. If you are content with your current Jirachi sent, that's fine, I just think you would benefit from this set as well:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)

~ Calm Mind
~ Wish
~ Psychic
~ Thunderbolt

This jewel of a set screws with the minds of so many players who don't know what to do with it. They can't tell if its a support set, a CM set, or what, and it works wonders. It also gives great team support with Wish. Wish Support + Bulky DDNite is a huge plus over no wish support and BulkyDDmence, so just consider this option if you choose to go with Bulky DDNite.
============
This is a very solidly built team; great work on it. It has great offensive and defensive synergy, which is why I didn't want to screw with any of that. You'll notice that everything I suggested kept the exact same type synergy, and 2/3 times it was just a set change. Great job on the team =).

 

[Philip7086]

This team is very solid and has some very powerful offensive and defensive cores. However, I think there are some changes you can make:

Heatran

• Fire Blast > Magma Storm. Fire Blast has 15% more accuracy, has the same power. You do lose the power to trap opposing pokemon, but as a lead, I don't see the value in that anyways.
• You say Taunt helps you against LO DD Gyarados. From my experience, they almost always run Jolly, meaning they beat your Taunt, get off a DD, and proceed to sweep your team. There are more effecient Taunters than Heatran if you want a Taunt lead (Azelf, Crobat, Aerodactyl, Weavile, Ambipom, the list goes on.)
• The lack of Leftovers does not feign a Choice set on LeadTran. If I see LeadTran I assume Shuca Berry. I would be far more surprised to see a ChoiceTran as a lead =P.

I would suggest running this Heatran over your current set:

Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)

~ Stealth Rock
~ Fire Blast
~ Hidden Power [Grass]
~ Will-O-Wisp

This set is much more affective and accomplishes the goals of your Heatran. Any Gyarados attempting to set up on you will be greeted with Will-O-Wisp, and switch out immediately. Hidden Power [Grass] allows you to 2HKO Swampert leads while they don't OHKO with STAB Water Attacks or STAB Ground Attacks. Fire Blast is the essential STAB which OHKOs Metagross & many other leads. This set alleviates the problems I mentioned and allows you to keep the goals you want.

I have no problems with the sets (because of the edits) up until...Salamence...

Salamence

I'm sorry, but based on the things you mentioned in the reasons you like Bulky DDmence (not revenge killable via Scizor, and able to really screw with Lucario), Bulky DDNite is better.

Dragonite is outclassed at full-out sweeping with straight DD, but Bulky DDMence & Nite are support sweepers, who open up gaps for other sweepers. With Dragonites significantly better bulk, this job is best left to him. It also gives you an answer to a Scarfed Iron Head-Happy Jirachi, as they deal poor damage & cannot flinch Dragonite. Without further ado. I present:

Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 224 HP/84 Atk/200 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)

~ Dragon Dance
~ Light Screen / Earthquake
~ Roost
~ Dragon Claw

This set clearly shows a huge advantage. Dragonite can set up on things like Vaporeon, Swampert, and Milotic, because with Light Screen, they all fail to 2HKO, meaning Roost + Dragon Dance stall them to hell and back. You are able to set up on a much wider variety of pokemon due to Light Screen & Dragonite's significantly better defensive capabilities, and with LS + DD + Roost, you can set up many more times, meaning that this Dragonite outpower BulkyMence who can't use Dragon Dance as many times.

Light Screen can be replaced with Earthquake for type coverage, but you lose the ability to set up on the bulky waters I mentioned. Even with Earthquake, BulkyDDnite has a significant advantage over BulkyMence.

Jirachi

I'm not sure if you had this set originally, but this set really kicks ass, especially on a team such as yours. I recently discovered this Jirachi set & love it: it allows it to act as a team player and a support sweeper. If you are content with your current Jirachi sent, that's fine, I just think you would benefit from this set as well:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)

~ Calm Mind
~ Wish
~ Psychic
~ Thunderbolt

This jewel of a set screws with the minds of so many players who don't know what to do with it. They can't tell if its a support set, a CM set, or what, and it works wonders. It also gives great team support with Wish. Wish Support + Bulky DDNite is a huge plus over no wish support and BulkyDDmence, so just consider this option if you choose to go with Bulky DDNite.
============
This is a very solidly built team; great work on it. It has great offensive and defensive synergy, which is why I didn't want to screw with any of that. You'll notice that everything I suggested kept the exact same type synergy, and 2/3 times it was just a set change. Great job on the team =).

I think you misunderstood the point of Magma Storm on Heatran. It is there because it kills Focus Sash leads on the turn you use Magma Storm. This means Azelf has a choice to either Taunt you and not set up SR, or set up SR and not Taunt you. Taunt is on the set mostly to prevent Smeargle from walking all over you. However, there have been many situations where Blissey switches into Magma Storm, and then gets Taunted on the turn it tries to ThunderWave/Wish/Softboiled. Then you are free to switch in something like Scizor and Blissey cannot scout your moves with Protect anymore, nor can it effect you with a status effect. It can merely stay in and risk a Superpower, or switch out, taking huge damage from Magma Storm + no Leftovers recovery (which is cancelled out by Magma Storm's effect) and Pursuit. This basically means Blissey is not coming in anymore at all. Believe me, I have been using a WoW Heatran lead since January, and I have found Taunt to be far superior in this metagame, especially considering this team.

In regards to the Bulky Nite over Bulky Mence suggestion, I am fully aware that Dragonite has more natural bulk than Salamence. However, there are two things we considered when choosing between the two. First of all, Bulky Dragonite cannot counter a SD Stone Edge Lucario, which is fairly common. It comes in and is OHKO'd by Stone Edge after the SD. Salamence, on the other hand, comes in with an Intimidate, and outspeeds Adamant Lucarios for the OHKO with EQ. Jolly Lukes will also not be able to OHKO Salamence with Stone Edge after an Intimidate. The second reason Mence was chosen over Dragonite was because of Intimidate. Through careful switching, Intimidate can really help out against physical threats, should our normal counters be eliminated. Bulky Nite has advantages over Bulky Mence, but it would be naive to think that it always fills roles better than Bulky Mence.

The alternate Jirachi spread is definitely something I think is worth trying out though. I like the idea of surviving an EQ from Gyara and being able to hit back w/ Tbolt.

Thanks for the rate, and I hope my response helped provide more undersatnding as to why certain choices were made for this team.

 

[YTP]

Bump. I'm deciding to wait on more opinions about the Scarfed Rotom-H decision over Mence as most of these rates are more focused on the team with Mence. Still testing flashstorms suggestions.