"if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." you can't say "no tiering decision will please everyone and therefore we should do nothing" because the choice to do nothing is also a decision that won't please everyone. in fact, it'll please no one
pretty wild that you decided to switch positions from "wrong about gliscor" to "wrong about gliscor for the exact opposite reason"
I should have communicated this better. You will have set precedent for banning a core universal game mechanic partly or wholly on merit of cart accuracy which will put pressure on other tier leaders to do the same.
Problematic is not clear and is discretionary. If there was a clear metric (if there is then tell me, that's what I was trying to find before) that outlined what problematic meant, then I wouldn't have an issue with that. This doesn't begin to touch on the point that surveys (and consequently the data sourced from them) can be easily manipulated and should only be preferred to a community suspect when we don't have enough time for a suspect (which we do).
Why does it matter if sleep has already been nerfed before? We have had a solution to sleep for over a decade now which has arguably kept it in check. It's a fine compromise between keeping a core mechanic of the game and balancing how egregious it would be if left uncheck. if it's unbalanced as is, suspect test it. If we want to get rid of it because it's outdated then why have we not modified other clauses such as species clause to accommodate for the plethora of new forms? I'm just asking for consistency.
"If you don't decide, you've decided" is the insane political ramblings i'd never expect from this forum lol. Besides, im pretty sure it will please the people that do think the current system is fine.
It's about how many people you will piss off. At the end of the day, there will always be someone or a collection of people who will not be happy with a decision, even if it was to say cure cancer, there will be one person out there who will hate it. Don't know who, but they will. If a decision will piss off a large majority of the playerbase, then maybe we shouldn't make that decision, but that's why we have a community survey and vote to decide these things. If you didn't vote in it, you have to accept that the people who did vote made that decision. It's alright if you can't get voting requirements, but don't complain and have a tantrum if you don't like the decision.
I think this pressure is being overstated, and action against sleep won't be taken unless it's a problem in that generation.
I take it you're not too familiar with how tiering surveys have been run in SV OU? Read it all here. Everybody votes on a certain mon/mechanic from 1-5, 1 being balanced, 5 being banworthy. Qualified votes (voters who have played in tours, qualified for suspect tests, are at the top of ladder, etc) are the ones that get the most attention. When something gets above a 4.0 qualified score, that's generally quickban territory, and pokemon like Ogerpon-Hearthflame and Baxcalibur are examples of this. This has been a great time-saver, much better than a drawn out suspect test but also not completely "autocratic."
I guess it doesn't really matter if it's been nerfed before or not, because it should have never been nerfed to begin with. I bring up baton pass more as a cautionary tale, something that should have never been complex banned to begin with, but because it was, the argument to just ban baton pass outright got much stronger. I really don't see why we need to hang on to "core mechanics" if our silly complex nerf is no longer keeping it in check. If you want to modify species clause to accommodate new forms, I'd recommend starting a policy review thread, that's out of my jurisdiction.
Probably not, because mixed attackers don't usually work that well. The only mixed attacker that actually works right now is iron valiant using cc on special sets. Sticky webs is also not that great right now, so it probably isn't the best. Still, a cool idea and maybe with some tweaks, it could work.
nooo! I read this and I actually thought you were going to talk about Minior for a sec. If you can't tell by the profile pic and signature... MINIOR BEST.
First argument I've heard like this (aside from Cuddly's post which I read at the same time as this; I'm responding to this cuz its a bit more fleshed out) so the "idk whats so hard to get" is hard to say when its an argument not being made (to me at least). Really I haven't seen enough discussion on MeepBard's implementation of Sleep (greying out) at all, it seems largely ignored from what I can tell. As far as I am aware, they have proposed solutions to the issues people suggest. Choice Trick or Encore into spamming sleep moves only works in a scenario where they cannot switch, if they can just switch they would in that scenario. In cases where they are trapped or they are the last mon, MeepBard's suggestion of just allowing the second sleep to get off does not seem to break anything at all. If the opponent is going out of their way almost to force them to spam sleep moves, than they should have to deal with multiple pokemon asleep. The only realistic scenario this would happen in would be in cases where the sleep user is the last mon, in which case why would they encore them into a sleep move?
This scenario defeats the purpose of the 'gentleman's agreement'. "The optimal play is to keep Sporing" does not really matter in cases where you already agreed at the top of the battle to not sleep more than one pokemon. By the same logic, the 'optimal' play is to bring Flutter Mane and just click buttons. If youre saying the optimal play is to break the gentleman's agreement, youre not really talking about OU anymore.
Baton pass is a similar situation but not exactly the same. In this case, you're phrasing it as 'we only knew three pokemon were uncompetitive with Baton Pass'. But if you go back and look at past threads around the banning of baton pass, you'll realize it was far more than just Scolipede, Espeon, and Smeargle being talked about. There were other pokemon that were causing problematic scenarios and even additional pokemon you could mention in the way of: "If we ban Scolipede, don't we still have a similar problematic issue in Ninjask/Yanmega". There were far more than three pokemon that were broken with Baton Pass at the time. In the sleep discussion, it really is just three anyone is talking about. You might not want to waste more time finding out if new ones crop up, but there is no one even close to the horizon of popping up. And who would it be? Unova Lilligant? Vivillon? Are we still debating Amoonguss? I really don't feel the list of broken pokemon is that high, and the ones that do exist don't seem to add as much to the metagame as every possible Baton Pass user did (like 20% of the meta at the time, including necessary walls, so it really made no sense to ban pokemon specifically and not baton pass.)
Your appreciation of Minior is infectious. I had to go for the pun.
if pokemon_asleep >= 1:
sleep_move_allowed = falseThere is no gentlemen's agreement. You can spam spore to your heart's content in simulator and if you already sleeped something, it "fails" via sleep mod. If there was a gentlemen's agreement, the whole box would be grayed out aside for some niche cases such as encore or being pp stalled. This is not similar to bringing an Ubers mon (there isn't even a similarity lol).
Change your avatar to Walking Wake because you clearly overcooked DaddyBuzzwole under Sun
"Grey out the move unless there is literally no other option" still works. But by that point we should just drop the Clause anyway.
Honestly, probably not. But Sleep Clause has been on the Councillors' minds for a good while now, so this is the perfect opportunity to make it consistent with tiering policy.
Eh calling Wojaks better is quite the statement
After dropping a line like this...
... I don't really think you have much room to talk about what is or isn't a good meme to be honest.
Heatran is such a good Pokemon. 75% of the time.
what about 10% form
that's called silvally
Smh maybe that OU monarchy guy had a point
Voting 5 on Finchinator in the upcoming survey, alongside Sleep.
