Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Magcargo]

Anyone want to talk about how powerful Waterpon is right now? Now that Arch is banned this thing can go berserk. It slots excellently onto rain and synergizes nicely with Barraskewda by taking advantage of opposing Dozo and Mola. Meanwhile, rain boosts Ivy Cudgel to nuclear damage levels.

So this is what an Archless metagame looks like....

Anyways, on a more serious note, I am still pissed that Raging Bolt wasn't suspected before Archaludon, but I am starting to warm up to the mon... somewhat. STABs have major holes in what it hits, mon has a bit of 4MSS issue, and can be played around in a similar way to Kingambit with tech like Sub. Thunder Clap is a good move but worse priority than Sucker Punch. I haven't seen too much rain since Arch was banned, so I can't comment on how well its doing in the current metagame, but I assume that since players don't need to deal with checking the combination of Raging bolt +Arch, focusing on handling one (in this case, Bolt) is easier. Incentivizing Iron Treads / Exca usage also isn't a terrible thing either, at least to me. IMO it should be looked at in the future, but its not a priority. Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, and Waterpon are all issues that we should address before Raging Bolt.

Speaking of Iron Treads, I know that people think this Pokemon should drop to UU after arch ban, but I think this mon is still good, maybe a little better now. Lots of non-rain teams are using Treads for a simple reason - its a good ass mon. Booster Speed hits a really good speed tier (outspeeds speedsters like Deo-S or +1 Volcarona for example), its damage output isn't too bad now that people have stopped running Defensive Tusk, and its defensive profile is arguably better than Tusk vs some key threats like Iron Crown, Slowking-G, Raging Bolt, etc. I think it'll continue being an OU superstar for the forseeable future.

 

[Heatranator]

Idea, sand and snow boost rock and ice types moves respectively by 50%. Gives a lot more diversity for teams as stone edge is now a nuke, while ice spinner mons can fit easier onto snow teams. Increases diversity a lot.
No, this is not a propaganda post to try and get kyurem banned because I am still a little salty it wasn't banned.

 

[EpicGuy321]

The funny thing is you COULD add it to the list of Spinners that get past Gholdengo at that point if it was legal

252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 189-223 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hates the lack of coverage but that alone would lead someone to use it as a Spinner

Timid Eleki is cool because it outspeeds Booster Valiant by 2 points (548 vs. 546)

 

[awyp]

Been playing a lot and I have some free thoughts, 3 dragons:

Raging Bolt: This mon is an absolute joke in regards to how easy it is to throw in a team with minimal support, I think it's QB worthy but if the community doesn't think so that's fine, I can't wait to go the suspect route and vote ban.

Gouging Fire: This mon is literally a 2 in 1, a physical sweeper that can act as a wall....this mon has the ability to reach 414 HP / 375 DEF with 252 invested into both + Def nature. I know people have seen the low effort Fat Breaking Swipes sets that seem impossible to kill. This mon is another quickban worthy mon, but I don't know if the community is sold on this one.

Roaring Moon: Same ole dude nothing changed, definitely overwhelming but not infront of the 2 above in my eyes in terms of action, this mon will sit in the back IMO until the 2 mons are both dealt with. I don't think this mon is QB worthy tbh.

also kinda wild how I see no rain now on the ladder? hmmm maybe arch wasnt broken

 

[somebodyuknow2]

also kinda wild how I see no rain now on the ladder? hmmm maybe arch wasnt broken

What is your logic here? Of course if a broken mon most abused by one team style gets banned, you would expect that style to see a significant drop in viability and usage. Note how alolatales screens HO is also significantly rarer after ban. Does that mean Bax wasn't broken?

 

[awyp]

What is your logic here? Of course if a broken mon most abused by one team style gets banned, you would expect that style to see a significant drop in viability and usage. Note how alolatales screens HO is also significantly rarer after ban. Does that mean Bax wasn't broken?

/sarcasm

 

[weirdo faye]

Been playing a lot and I have some free thoughts, 3 dragons:

Raging Bolt: This mon is an absolute joke in regards to how easy it is to throw in a team with minimal support, I think it's QB worthy but if the community doesn't think so that's fine, I can't wait to go the suspect route and vote ban.

Gouging Fire: This mon is literally a 2 in 1, a physical sweeper that can act as a wall....this mon has the ability to reach 414 HP / 375 DEF with 252 invested into both + Def nature. I know people have seen the low effort Fat Breaking Swipes sets that seem impossible to kill. This mon is another quickban worthy mon, but I don't know if the community is sold on this one.

Roaring Moon: Same ole dude nothing changed, definitely overwhelming but not infront of the 2 above in my eyes in terms of action, this mon will sit in the back IMO until the 2 mons are both dealt with. I don't think this mon is QB worthy tbh.

also kinda wild how I see no rain now on the ladder? hmmm maybe arch wasnt broken

when u making new rmt that peaked ladder or something we ordinary folks need new broken cheese for free elo uwu

 

[Smokeyjet21]

Ban freeze, too OP:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2065844307-b2zr5so1du75f7094b3mc2c3qs7oyvapw

Now seriously, what pokemons in your opinion would be better in case of a Gouging Fire ban?

 

[Conflux123]

Ban freeze, too OP:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2065844307-b2zr5so1du75f7094b3mc2c3qs7oyvapw

Now seriously, what pokemons in your opinion would be better in case of a Gouging Fire ban?

Maybe CB Roaring Moon since it would be a replacement for gouging.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Roaring Moon destroys at +2. Dragonite at +2 destroys the tier. Anything at +2 destroys the tier.

And my point was that the extra bulk from snow might allow gouging to get that more effectively and consistently. What's yours?

Yknow, to add onto that, your posts are almost always derogatory one-liners that frequently if not always miss the point of the post they are replying to. You'd do well to re-read the post before you reply, and make sure your argument actually makes sense.

 

[EpicGuy321]

what pokemons in your opinion would be better in case of a Gouging Fire ban?

Slowking-Galar because sun would lose its biggest physical threat

 

[viivian]

n

This is insane.

Ban freeze, too OP:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2065844307-b2zr5so1du75f7094b3mc2c3qs7oyvapw

Now seriously, what pokemons in your opinion would be better in case of a Gouging Fire ban?

i don't know what it is with darkrai landing ice beam freezes all the time. i swear it's like bad dreams secretly gives you an increased chance to freeze

on another note, nothing has really indicated that we're even getting a gouging fire suspect test soon. i'd put the theorycrafting on hold for now

 

[UnusualBoy]

Ban freeze, too OP:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2065844307-b2zr5so1du75f7094b3mc2c3qs7oyvapw

Now seriously, what pokemons in your opinion would be better in case of a Gouging Fire ban?

Dragonite. It competes with GG for the bulky dragon dancer role and while Dnite hits harder and has ESpeed, it fears being burned by Burning Bulwark, actually other physical attackers would benefit from GG leaving the tier.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

It can sometimes just win games it shouldn't of with supreme overlord and sucker punch. It requires you to keep your counters at full health like tusk in order to not get a late game gambit sweep and that is not really healthy. I'm tired rn, I have to go to work soon at it's 6:30 where I am so sorry for the short description. It is easier to handle rn than DLC1, but it still isn't too healthy.

Why shouldn't it? If Kingambit's opponent doesn't prepare for Kingambit, or doesn't preserve their checks, wastes their tera, or plays poorly vs sucker punch, why is the win "undeserved?" Being able to revenge most bullshit sweepers with sucker punch makes the tier so much more bearable, pretty much every broken sweeper stays in the tier with the justification "well you can beat it with priority" - without Kingambit that all goes away. Kingambit's defensive and offensive presence is invaluable for this tier.

I wonder if we can attach Garganacl to this comment. I feel like this was pre dlc and now we are in post. Ban Garganacl please

This is an absurd comment given how condescending you are towards anyone who wants any other ban

 

[ianlazerbeem]

This is what I was worried the OU tier would is becoming. It's what Heatranator described earlier on the thread, a Memento sacs game where if you position your Kingambit, you win the game. It doesn't matter if you have a good team because the other guy has a Kingambit + threats like the ones you are describing Kingambit is keeping in check except now you have Raging Bolt who is typically being played at the end, after your Ground types are dead. It's not healthy for the tier so one has to go.

Pretty hard to claim "the game is becoming" this when Kingambit isn't even on 2/3 teams. Positioning your sweepers and eliminating threats to them is literally how this game has always been won

 

[j0nathan]

Pretty hard to claim "the game is becoming" this when Kingambit isn't even on 2/3 teams

its still the second most used pokemon, dont act like nobody uses kingambit
edit: just looked it up. it was #1. sorry for that mistake haha

 

[Heatranator]

Why shouldn't it? If Kingambit's opponent doesn't prepare for Kingambit, or doesn't preserve their checks, wastes their tera, or plays poorly vs sucker punch, why is the win "undeserved?" Being able to revenge most bullshit sweepers with sucker punch makes the tier so much more bearable, pretty much every broken sweeper stays in the tier with the justification "well you can beat it with priority" - without Kingambit that all goes away. Kingambit's defensive and offensive presence is invaluable for this tier.



This is an absurd comment given how condescending you are towards anyone who wants any other ban

Gambit's checks you have to keep at relatively full health. That is the unhealthy part because in this meta when you have to account for everything else, your tusk is going to be chipped. Only bulky resists at +50% health can take on a gambit late game. The exception is valiant which 4x resists it. It would be alright if they had to keep at +30% health, but keeping a mon at 50% health is extremely hard. That means you have to keep your gambit counter out of the game so they can take on gambit, which the gambit user can exploit by using mons that your gambit check also has to take on, which is a lose-lose scenario. Or, you put two dedicated gambit counters on your team, which I don't think is healthy.
Also, while gambit is not on 2/3 of teams, it is still the number one mon in usage, so I think that's a poor argument.
Gambit is easier to deal with now, yes, but that doesn't mean it cannot win games it should have no right to.

 

[Welcome to mars]

WELCOME, WELCOME TO EARTH

today was quite the welcome to earth day, and in this euphoric state, i finally reveal the prototype of the cobalion set i have been teasing

double dance cobalion?


Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Iron Head/ Tera blast

So, what does this set do?
ever since archaludon was captured and chained up by the OU council, the rain community has been desperate to replace their arrested king, something that can also boost defensive and attack,

iron defense boosts cobby‘s phsyical bulk and swords dance boosts the attack, it can either basically go for a double bulk up or boost up a stat twice, either way its going to get some value in almost all games, as long as you play it right, against certain styles like BO, it might even sweep late game, tera fairy is always useful for taking advantage of cobalions usable special bulk as much as possible and if you have the balls to run tera blast, you can beat dangerous dragon types like dragapult and raging bolt and improve your already solid great tusk match up (even though it like, hits you super effectively)

so overall, for an RU pokemon, this seemly gimmicky set is actually good, however some physical and special attackers can‘t be cheesed through , take specs walking wake and most gouging fire sets for example, so know when and when not to send it out so you can utilise in the best way you can

i‘d love to hear feedback in how to improve it since this is an early set i built and may be more flawed than i think

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Pretty hard to claim "the game is becoming" this when Kingambit isn't even on 2/3 teams.

you're leaving out important context again: gambit is the single most used pokemon in the entire tier. number 2 on low ladder, number 1 on mid ladder, number 1 on high ladder by more than 10 percentage points, and number 2 in spl. in the case of pokemon usage statistics, "1/3 of teams have it" matters a lot more than "2/3 of teams don't have it"

 

[veti]

While I am Choice Scarfs #1 Hater, Scarf Ribombee is a cool mon. Use it. Save Sticky Web.

The Bee (Ribombee) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Ghost / Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Trick
- Stun Spore
- Moonblast

Choice Scarf allows Ribombee to set Sticky Web against Weavile and Deoxys Speed. This alone can shut down some teams that rely on denying webs in the lead matchup, while you can also snipe Weavile T1 with Moonblast instead and set webs later if your team wants Weavile gone more than Webs up earlygame. Scarf Stun Spore and Trick let The Bee™ ruin boosted Pokemon like +1 Volcarona, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, and various other boosted threats (everything slower than booster boulder as ribombee ties it). Trick makes Ribombee not useless vs stall especially if you have mons that can benefit from Glowking, Blissey, and Clodsire being locked into moves, and can lock opposing offensive Pokemon into unfavorable moves for its teammates to have very free setup opportunities, similar to an Encore Iron Valiant. Scarf Ribombee unfortunately comes with one major downside of not having Skill Swap for Hatterene, although maybe you could tech it over Stun Spore or Moonblast? I haven't experimented with Swap+Scarf yet.

 

[Soiramio3000]

I hope the upcoming gen 5 remakes will either be released until december or in worst case scenario they will not allow to trade pokemon between with gen 9.

December should be way more than enough for us to figure out the metagame and make the necessary votes.

several pokemon were not suspected tested in time this gen because the dlcs and home were around the corner.

who knows, maybe kingambit will get the bannhammer if he gets suspect tested again.
he came very close last time.

something unrelated:

do you think that skarmory may drop?
I can't recall the last time I saw it.

 

[Ehmcee]

do you think that skarmory may drop?
I can't recall the last time I saw it.

Skarmory will not drop, it's still extremely common and one of the most reliable spikes setters in the metagame, it's one of the only real Roaring Moon checks, the best non Tera Ghost Kingambit counter, and counters Rillaboom, while checking Weavile and Meowscarada. It's probably the best physdef reliable tank in the meta currently.

Edit: It's currently ranked #21 in usage, I'd be incredibly surprised if it dropped all the way to 46th or lower

 

[Heatranator]

I hope the upcoming gen 5 remakes will either be released until december or in worst case scenario they will not allow to trade pokemon between with gen 9.

august should be way more than enough for us to figure out the metagame and make the necessary votes.

several pokemon were not suspected tested in time this gen because the dlcs and home were around the corner.

who knows, maybe kingambit will get the bannhammer if he gets suspect tested again.
he came very close last time.

something unrelated:

do you think that skarmory may drop?
I can't recall the last time I saw it.

I hope that Gen 5 remakes will not be compatible with Gen 9, we don't need more bs mons in the tier. (Still hyped for them and hope they don't ruin it like BDSP lmao).
Also, skarmory ain't dropping, Corv might, though that also seems unlikely. It can set up spikes easily, can check a lot of threatening mons such as gambit and meow, can be a soft check to most attackers with sturdy + whirlwind and can become a sweeper even with id+bp. The only issue it has is that it can struggle to fit all the moves it wants into its moveset, but it doesn't worry about that too much.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

WELCOME, WELCOME TO EARTH

today was quite the welcome to earth day, and in this euphoric state, i finally reveal the prototype of the cobalion set i have been teasing

View attachment 607299
double dance cobalion?


Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Iron Head/ Tera blast

So, what does this set do?
ever since archaludon was captured and chained up by the OU council, the rain community has been desperate to replace their arrested king, something that can also boost defensive and attack,

iron defense boosts cobby‘s phsyical bulk and swords dance boosts the attack, it can either basically go for a double bulk up or boost up a stat twice, either way its going to get some value in almost all games, as long as you play it right, against certain styles like BO, it might even sweep late game, tera fairy is always useful for taking advantage of cobalions usable special bulk as much as possible and if you have the balls to run tera blast, you can beat dangerous dragon types like dragapult and raging bolt and improve your already solid great tusk match up (even though it like, hits you super effectively)

so overall, for an RU pokemon, this seemly gimmicky set is actually good, however some physical and special attackers can‘t be cheesed through , take specs walking wake and most gouging fire sets for example, so know when and when not to send it out so you can utilise in the best way you can

i‘d love to hear feedback in how to improve it since this is an early set i built and may be more flawed than i think

i like where your head is at. normal cobalion sets don't really have much use on rain. ironpress cobalion tends to be outclassed by ironpress zamazenta in general (has anyone tried this in rain yet actually? seems like neat anti-waterpon tech), and utility sets are just kind of a downgrade from treads for rain teams specifically. but swords dance and tera blast might potentially give it a better damage output than zamazenta against fighting resists/immunities, so i'm interested to see where this goes

 

[MilkyWay]

WELCOME, WELCOME TO EARTH

today was quite the welcome to earth day, and in this euphoric state, i finally reveal the prototype of the cobalion set i have been teasing

View attachment 607299
double dance cobalion?


Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Iron Head/ Tera blast

So, what does this set do?
ever since archaludon was captured and chained up by the OU council, the rain community has been desperate to replace their arrested king, something that can also boost defensive and attack,

iron defense boosts cobby‘s phsyical bulk and swords dance boosts the attack, it can either basically go for a double bulk up or boost up a stat twice, either way its going to get some value in almost all games, as long as you play it right, against certain styles like BO, it might even sweep late game, tera fairy is always useful for taking advantage of cobalions usable special bulk as much as possible and if you have the balls to run tera blast, you can beat dangerous dragon types like dragapult and raging bolt and improve your already solid great tusk match up (even though it like, hits you super effectively)

so overall, for an RU pokemon, this seemly gimmicky set is actually good, however some physical and special attackers can‘t be cheesed through , take specs walking wake and most gouging fire sets for example, so know when and when not to send it out so you can utilise in the best way you can

i‘d love to hear feedback in how to improve it since this is an early set i built and may be more flawed than i think

Prior to Arch’s release, I’d used some niche stuff on rain to patch up some common rain weaknesses that had been somewhat successful high ladder (Tauros-Aqua for gambit + bax; Toxicroak for waterpon + rillaboom).

On paper, Cobalion has potential to fill a similar role cuz it can check gambit, rillaboom, and kyurem, all who also can give rain a lot of trouble.

For your set, I’d experiment with Volt Switch > Swords Dance so Cobalion could function as a pivot to get dangerous rain sweepers in rather than try to sweep itself (I do like iron defense + body press tho cuz it makes Cobalion less passive). Potentially stealth rock (role compression)/thunder wave/taunt are worth testing over iron head as if you find yourself not clicking it that often since those are solid utility moves.

Secondly, an assault vest set would allow Cobalion to survive a kyurem specs earth power even if it predicts the switch in correctly while maybe blanket checking more things. Jolly 152 spe / 248 hp / 108 atk with volt switch, close combat, iron head, and stone edge or Timid 152 spe / 248 hp /108 def with volt switch, body press, flash cannon, and vacuum wave is where I’d start testing (evs for jolly Kyurem)

EDIT: yeah Cobalion seems like a budget treads for rain, but has the niche of checking gambit and rilla if you rain team struggles to fit answers to them