Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Cuddly]

Disappointed that the “Iron Boulder” Clause I suggested earlier (the one where both parties replace Iron Boulder’s sprite/model with anything more appealing) wasn’t on here, and neither was the ”Enamorus“ Clause (specifically that genie from Palworld replacing Enamorus).

Anyways expecting sleep to get a high score along with Kyurem, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire.

 

[EpicGuy321]

I gave Gouging Mid a 2. Yeah it has DD or whatever, but it's not that strong, and sun sets can 2HKO Dondozo, but are slow and EQ weak. It can be threatening, but I haven't had a problem with it.

 

[Pokenar]

I gave Gholdengo and Kyurem a 4, Sleep a 5, and everything else a 3 or lower.

 

[Eeveeto]

Sleep: 3
Tera: No action.

Kyurem: 3 (up from 2 in last survey, I recognize and respect its power, wouldn,t be honest if I put lower)
Gouging Fire: 5
Roaring Moon: 5
Archaludon: 1 (what did this bridge even do to be on the list?)
Gholdengo: 5
Kingambit: 3
Deoxys_S: 4

Won,t elaborate.

 

[Magcargo]

I still gave Kyuren a 3/5. I get how ppl see this mon as a nuisance but I am still unsure as to what makes this Pokemon so oppressive. All its sets got noticeably worse from last gen, where it was banned by a hair iirc. Specs still 2 taps most threats, but in a hazard meta like SV, is on a ticking timer and can't play a long game well, even with support. Boots is better at this game, but has far more switch ins due to the power drop. It is an annoying mon in the builder for sure but, I'm not sure it's removal would be the best idea atm, esp since it's good into rain.

Arch gets a 3. I love this pokemon but it trades far too well on rain and can very easily snow all out of control with stamina and electro shot. Not uncommon to see him trade 1-2 or 1-3 consistently. I would prefer other avenues to banning my boy, but he brings back memories of bloodmoon and annihilape.

Gouging is a 4. Already elaborated my thoughts on this mon earlier.

Moon is a 2, there are bigger issues rn.

Ghold = 1, mon is down bad!

Gambit is 2. Encore usage is down a cliff so this mon is back to doing its old tricks. At the same time, we might need the king more than ever for the dominant rain and sun.

Sleep is 4. I don't give a shit what happens to this anymore. Ban darkrai, ban hypnosis, ban all sleep moves, I don't care.

I am neutral on Tera, but we need action soon I think. Maybe after the Gouging / kyuren / arch questions are dealt with.

 

[Ehmcee]

Sleep: 5

: 5
: 4
: 5
: 1
: 2
: 1
: 1

Only the top 3 mons are remotely quickban/suspect worthy at the moment to me apart from sleep, want to see how the meta settles once any of em leave.

 

[EpicGuy321]

I think tera needs to go, if you notice the broken stuff in the meta, you have Kingambit (tera abuser), Roaring Moon (can abuse tera if needed), Kyurem can tera fairy, Volc now has coverage(!)

 

[CobsonYaoi]

Sleep: 5
Tera: No action. (I'm not against looking into Tera at some point, we just have bigger fish to fry at the moment.)

Kyurem: 4
Gouging Fire: 2
Roaring Moon: 3
Archaludon: 2
Gholdengo: 4
Kingambit: 3
Deoxys-S: 1 (lol)

 

[Srn]

What are they agreeing to in the middle of the battle? MeepBard's agreement can happen easily at the top of the battle. At the start we agree to this: If I sleep a pokemon, I will not click my sleep move again unless the original mon is no longer asleep or I am 100% forced to . Simple enough. Players are agreeing to suboptimal plays because that is the agreement for proper competitive play. Its suboptimal to not bring Flutter Mane.. but that is the rules we agree to. (I know the Uber comparison is a little bluhh but it helps me make my point)

Gonna try to make this clear one more time. What I just bolded is entirely different from agreeing to not bringing certain mons/moves to the battle. Agreements to make specific plays and actions DURING THE BATTLE are bad, they go against the spirit of competitive play. If the objectively correct play for me is to Spore again while I am Encore'd into it, why in the world would I agree to not make the objectively correct play?

Rules to not bring xyz to the battle is completely different from rules to not make certain plays in battle. If you think the difference here doesn't matter, I'm not sure what else to say.

If Unova Lilligant is really a problem, I would like to hear about it more. I don't see it being a problem considering you are locked into only 2 coverage moves. What Tera Blast it is is the real question for me. Tera Fire? Most Dragons + Fires wall you hard as well as Slowking Galar/Clodsire. Tera Ice? You are hard walled by Kingambit + most steels, still most Fires, and still cant break Slowking Galar. Tera Ground? That's where the flyings start to come in and mess you up. Plus Blisseys always around. Yeah you can sleep the answer, but like Mr. Zamazenta its really not hard to find yourself having multiple Grass answers, although ig this still depends on Tera Type. And even then there's priority. That's impressive, but home meta was a while away at this point, so a lot has changed. But if it really is an issue I'd like to see it, genuinely. If even Unova Lilligant is a problem, that might change my perspective on sleep in this meta to see it like how y'all see it no joke. I just haven't seen that be an issue yet.

1) Weaker sleep abusers (Unova Lilligant) won't be a problem until the stronger ones are banned, and banning the stronger ones is the worse course of action to begin with.
2) Sleep abusers don't have to be overwhelmingly powerful for sleep to be worth banning.

I think 2) is really lost in the discussion sometimes. "Uuh I'm not winning every game with this, just accept the rng bros it's not even that good!" Is missing the entire point. Aislinn posted here about her experiences laddering and note that she broke even in elo! The important takeaway is that this mechanic just lets you bypass counterplay by rolling the dice, with very reasonable odds of success, not what it's overpowered or will win every game.

I have taken the time to note down the results and actions taking from each survey below more so as a reference than anything else and is not meant to draw ire to the decisions of the council. While the vast majority of instances have been community driven, i've highlighted some in red to back up my point of some decisions being discretionary:

Survey results Dec10 - 2022

- Annihilape received a qualified score of 3.5 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Chi-Yu received a qualified score of 3.5 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Cyclizar received a qualified score of 3.3 (resulted in quickban action @ 8th Jan)
- Espathra received a qualified score of 3.0 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.0 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jan28 - 2023

- Chien-Pao received a qualified score of 4.105 (resulted in suspect test @ 8th Feb)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.059 (resulted in no action)
- Espathra received a qualified score of 2.980 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Feb16 - 2023

- Espathra received a qualified score of 4.25 (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Feb)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.44 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 2.09 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Feb26 - 2023

- Garganacl received a qualified score of 3.29 (resulted in no action)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 2.97 (resulted in no action)
- Shed Tail received a qualified score of 3.10 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Apr22 - 2023

- Shed Tail received a qualified score of 4.30 (resulted in quickban action @ 15th May)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.05 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 2.92 (resulted in no action)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 2.41 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jun22 - 2023

- Chien-Pao received a qualified score of 4.63 (resulted in quickban action @ 7th Jun after no action decided 4th Jun)
- Zamazenta-Crowned received a qualified score of 4.4 (resulted in quickban action @ 7th Jun after no action decided 4th Jun)
- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 3 (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Jun after no action decided @ 4th Jun)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of NULL (resulted in quickban action @ 11th Jun after no action decided @ 4th Jun)
- Zamazenta-Hero received a qualified score of ~3.7 (resulted in suspect test @ 11th Jun)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 3.15 (resulted in no action)
- Ursaluna received a qualified score of 2.68 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Jul22 - 2023

- Volcarona received a qualified score of 2.89 (No action taken to reinstate)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.46 (resulted in suspect test @ 26th Jul)
- Garganacl received a qualified score of 2.98 (resulted in no action)
- Iron Valiant received a qualified score of 2.42 (resulted in no action)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 3.05 (resulted in no action)
- Baxcalbur received a qualified score of 1.86 (resulted in no action)
- Samurott-Hisui received a qualified score of 1.77 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Sep12 - 2023

- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.51 (higher score indicating more desire to drop) (Vote to be held
to reinstate but I can't find it so don't know if happened or not or what the results were)

- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 2.49 (higher score indicating more desire to drop) (no action taken)

Survey results Sep20 - 2023

- Baxcalibur received a qualified score of 4.64 (resulted in quickban action @ 17th Sep)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.34 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 3.69 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 1

- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 4.02 (resulted in quickban action @ 23rd Sep)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 2.21 (resulted in no action)
- UrsalunaB received a qualified score of 2.79 (resulted in suspect test @ 7th Oct)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.3 (resulted in no action) (marked red)

While I agree with the outcome, suspecting UrsalunaB instead of Manapahy was not data driven based on the survey results.

Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 2

- Roaring Moon received a qualified score of 3.68 (resulted in suspect test @ 28th Oct)
- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.37 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.22 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.28 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.11 (resulted in no action)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.39 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Nov1 - 2023 Part 3

- Manapahy received a qualified score of 3.19 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.18 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.62 (resulted in no action)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.72 (resulted in no action)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.99 (resulted in suspect test @ 11th Nov)

Survey results Nov23 - 2023

- Sneasler received a qualified score of 4.39 (resulted in quickban action @ 18th Nov)
- Gholdengo received a qualified score of 3.85 (resulted in no action)
- Kingambit received a qualified score of 3.29 (resulted in no action)
- Manaphy received a qualified score of 3.26 (resulted in no action)
- Ogerpon-Wellspring received a qualified score of 3.10 (resulted in no action)

Survey results Dec12 - 2023

For this survey, lower scores favored staying uber and higher scores favored going into OU

- Annihilape received a qualified score of 2.29 (resulted in staying uber)
- Baxcalibur received a qualified score of 2.71 (resulted in staying uber)
- Ogerpon-Hearthflame received a qualified score of 2.14 (resulted in staying uber)
- Landorus received a qualified score of 2.28 (resulted in staying uber)
- Palafin received a qualified score of 2.28 (resulted in staying uber)
- Sneasler received a qualified score of 2.62 (resulted in staying uber)
- Ursaluna-B received a qualified score of 1.87 (resulted in staying uber)
- Urshifu-S received a qualified score of 2.14 (resulted in staying uber)
- Urshifu-R received a qualified score of 2.58 (resulted in staying uber)
- Zamazenta-Crowned received a qualified score of 2.66 (resulted in staying uber)
- Gliscor received a qualified score of 3.15 (resulted in going to OU)
- Roaring Moon received a qualified score of 3.19 (resulted in going to OU)
- Volcarona received a qualified score of 3.66 (resulted in going to OU)
- Darkrai received a qualified score of 3.37 (resulted in going to OU)

Survey results Jan2 - 2024

No action taken with the highest suspected mon being roaring moon with 3.24



Bracing myself for the angry response

View attachment 594751

Below is from Finch from the first survey:
View attachment 594752


I don't think i've used this forum based survey you're mentioning but I'll reserve by judgement on it until I try it out. There are ways I could think of to manipulate survey responses but I will refrain from saying those publicly for obvious reasons. If you want to discuss those privately, feel free to dm me.



I am open to being swayed that sleep, in its current state, has reached a critical threshold for uncompetitiveness - I would disagree with you because I think the issue is with the top 3 abusers (in particular Darkrai) and not the moves themselves but I am open to being persuaded.

To pivot onto something we both agree on (I think), we both in our personal opinion find tera to be uncompetitive and I think we can also agree this exacerbates the problem with sleep. Why are we focusing our attention on sleep and not tera when we have already banned multiple mons for their tera capabilities? Many users inside and outside of this thread have highlighted how the intense scrutiny on sleep has seemingly come out from thin air (or from Darkrai being released). If we as a community are collectively unsure of sleep and tera as healthy mechanics, why are we pursuing sleep first when there is more precedent for tera being more unhealthy than sleep by looking at the list of banned mons? Weren't we also promised a re-evaluation of the tera mechanic? Wouldn't it make more sense to tackle the matter that has historically caused more problematic issues first?

This is what I meant when I mentioned that some decisions by the council could be seen as autocratic though I appreciate it's a difficult position to be in.

I think council using discretion at times is good! Even though ursaluna-BM got a low survey score, they were smart enough to get a suspect test going anyway, and they were completely justified in doing so. This can backfire at times (volcarona qb), but by and large what the track record shows is that surveys strongly guide council actions but don't bind them, and that's good. If we didn't value council discretion, there wouldn't be any need for a council at all, we would just have 1 guy putting up surveys and systematically deciding to qb or suspect accordingly. I'm sure that's appealing to some, but I don't love that idea, I think it would take too long at times to kick obviously unhealthy elements out of the tier. I think council has made way more good decisions than bad this gen, and I'd like to keep their discretion in the picture for the time.

With regards to tera, I will quote myself from the past

As the self-proclaimed #1 tera hater, I actually do not want a tera suspect anytime soon. Ideally we try the most popular half-measure first, which would be to suspect tera blast, and then see if tera is still a problem with a cut and dry ban/no ban vote. I want to see if the meta can develop in a healthy manner with tera first, to give it a fair chance, and I would like to treat a tera suspect as a last resort after several efforts of balancing the meta have failed, rather than some chore to "get it over with."

Quite frankly, if I'm seeing several surveys with 7.5+ scores in competitiveness and enjoyment, there might not ever be a need to suspect tera and I'll gladly shut up about it.

Tera ban aint gonna happen anytime soon, no matter how uncompetitive you or I think it is, so I'd rather wait it out to see if community support waxes or wanes depending on meta development. If you're on the ban tera team, then our best move is to wait and see how many pokemon make themselves banworthy thanks to tera. Only if we see a ton of bans happen will we have enough evidence to make the case again. There will not be a 3rd tera suspect test, make the 2nd one count.

Anyways I'm beggin yall to vote 5 on sleep go team go.

 

[June Heat]

Enjoyment: 1. Competitiveness: 4, this is easily the worst the meta has been for me since even the beginning of SV. New Toy Syndrome has warn off, and the cracks are becoming glaringly obvious. There are just far too many threats to prepare for, and if your team is less than perfect it feels like you just get steamrolled by X threat you didn't fully account for. Out of the games I'm currently playing Pokemon Singles is easily the least fun I have between them.

Sleep: 1, I just feel like the Pro Ban side has done a piss poor job, or frankly most haven't even tried, to explain to me why in its current form Sleep is uncompetitive. Really just explaining how two, maybe three, Pokemon are busted with Sleep and nothing else(also love how Darkrai and Iron Val weren't even on the list that sure isn't gonna skew votes). As far as Tiering Policy goes I don't own nor will I ever own SV. As someone who experiences Gen 9 solely through Pokemon Showdown 100% cart accuracy means very little to me. I would much rather see a compromise, and restructuring of Sleep Clause to please the Cart Accurate crowd, but unfortunately this is a forgone conclusion and Sleep is donezo.

Tera: No Action, I think we need Tera more than ever in this metagame. There are just far too many threats to account for with Pokemon alone, and I feel like you need defensive Tera just to try and patch the inevitable holes in your team. Ban the abusers keep the mechanic. We need it just to stay afloat.

Kyurem: 5, Ice+Ground+FreezeDry coverage too strong.
Gouging Fire: 4, under Sun this Pokemon is incredibly difficult to defeat.
Roaring Moon: 3, not the worst offender on this list to be honest. Still rough some times, but can be handled.
Archraludon: 1, I hate it, but it's not broke.
Gholdengo: 3, still bullshit, but as of right now there are more pressing issues.
Kingambit: 4, honestly still difficult to deal with, and it's swing potential is unmatched.
Deo-S: 1, lol

 

[redninjapuffle]

Welp time to put my thoughts together for this
Tera: no action rn, feels its more of the tera abusers and its pretty nice at the moment, though it might change in the following months
Pokémon cuz I'm saving sleep for last:
: 5, Specs set has no reliable switch-ins, and is annoying to deal with under snow and veil, get him outta here.
: 3, haha funni buttons go brrrrrrrrrrrrr, band set is strong but can be exploited, and the DD sets have 4MSS, wanting fire stab, dragon stab, eq, and morning sun, still suspect worthy.
: 4, Still doing the same shit as he did in DLC1, spamming knock-off and being a very strong win condition in the endgame, tera also makes it hard to predict what its going to tera into.
and : both a 2, still doing the same stuff as normal, but there are more ways to deal with gholdengo, and kingambit isn't as strong as it was in DLC1 either.
: 1, not a threat lmao
: 2, may need to be looked at but its fine right now, really good on rain but is still overall fine.

Sleep: 5, I am very tired after the last 20 or so pages of people arguing the same god damn points over and over from BOTH SIDES, and things just felt as if everyone's collective sanity dropped after the sleep discussion. I'm voting ban but I am so god damn tired of the sleep discussion and just want it to end. A ban on sleep would be best imo as sleep clause is one, very old and thus is not compliant with modern tiering policy, and two, while we have two major abusers at the moment, banning them would cause people to run new pokemon that could abuse sleep, its an endless cycle unless we cut it off right now. Sure it may be seen that the two major abusers can be banned and sleep turns out fine, but we don't really know for sure, I would rather just pull the plug on this and be done with it.

 

[niersighted]

Survey opinions!


Sleep: 5

I feel like there is no reason not to tackle Sleep. The mere fact that Sleep Clause exists is a testament of how uncompetitive Sleep itself is. We have a plethora of other ways to debilitate Pokémon (Burn, TWave, Stat reduction to name a few) so i do not think the status will be missed in the slightest.

No action for Tera is necessary at this time.

Not worried about Tera atm, it's as simple as that.

Kyurem: 5

The first of the Three Asshats, it's an extremely punishing mon with good coverage and bulk, making it both hard to switch into and hard to kill. The most pressing issue in the tier, in my opinion.

Gouging Fire: 3~4 (voted 3)

The least problematic of the Three Asshats, but still definitely problematic enough to warrant a suspect at least. Very bulky mon that can be tough to kill before it gets out of hand, but it also punished very hard by status.

Roaring Moon: 4

The last of the Three Asshats, he's still doing what he was banned for. Still hard to wall and can easily run away with games after even just 1 DDance. Since I play a lot of balance, I pray to every diety unser the sun that it's not the Taunt variant, otherwise it will be so extremely difficult to stop. Kyurem should go first, but I want this guy gone right after.

Archaludon: 2

Despite Arch under rain being very scary, that's pretty much the only time I'm worried about it. It requires more aggresive plays but rarely have I felt so overwhelmed by it to call for action. Nonetheless, I am open to discussion about it since it is pretty scary under rain, which is where I imagine most of the complaints come from.

Gholdengo: 2

I fucking hate this mon, but even I have to admit that it's the worst it has ever been currently. All the same, I still do not think a mon like it can truly br called healthy and would like action upon in the future, however unrealistic that may be. It's just not as much of an issue as the Three Asshats, so he gets away today.

Kingambit: 3

We've gotten used to him but I still think he's a dick who should go. Just not a fun mon to fight in the slightest. Like Gholdengo though, he's not as much of an issue as the others.

Deoxys-S: 1

Lol


Beyond these survey candidates, I hope we see push for Raging Bolt in the near future. If anything, it will get talks about Kingambit going again which is still a win in my book.

I hope everyone has a good day today, I typed this up while at the VGC Regionals in Charlotte, NC! :]

 

[Pinecoishot]

Sorry for grammar on mobile

Sleep : 5 - The uptick of sleep powder Lilligant and hypnosis valiant has shown to me that this is not a darkrai issue but a sleep issue.

Tera - Ban.

Kyurem- 5 QB immediately. Balance and BO teams are unable to consistently answer this. Insane builder pressure

Gouging - 2. Bigger issues for now but potientially broken

Moon- 3. Taunt DD Acro Knock farms teams without gambit. Having to use gambit to answer this isn’t a good arguement for staying. There are bigger issues though


Arch- 5. This makes rain broken. No actual answers as Clodsire can get two shot by EQ restricted to building as you can’t use things that let it come in on offense

Ghold- 1. Non issue. Maybe later it’s banworthy but not now

Kingambit - 3. Same as always. Tera can beta any answer and makes building hell. Not the biggest issue

Deoxys-S. 1. Mediocre mon in general non factor

Raging Bolt. 4- not on survey but no answers when on rain (already broken style). Outside rain still insane. Very restrictive to building.

Gliscor. 2 not on survey. Find restrictive to builder. Not a big issue but keep and eye out down the line

 

[Anchor9]

why Turd2 did you have to send this thread to the abyss of sleep discussion?!

 

[658Greninja]

Personally I’ve been having a lot of fun building in SV OU. Finding unique niches in Pokemon like regular Slowking, Volcanion, Hydrapple, Slither Wing, Empoleon, Magnezone, etc. Even playing around with sets and EVs of OU staples feels fun and new, because teambuilding options this time are much wider. That being said, there are a few broken elements that should be addressed.

I want it banned so we don’t have to deal with 40 pages of sleep discussion. Jokes aside, I think sleep clause is outdated and sleep moves should be banned, rather than trying to preserve a broken mechanic. Plus people have been spamming sleep all over ladder. I’ve seen fucking Venomoth of all things. Players are fishing for sleep for cheap wins and counterplay against it this gen is much lesser than Gen 6-8, especially with Darkrai in the tier.

I would hold off on touching Terastallization until we start seeing 10-20 more Pokemon become problematic even after a wave of bans. We don’t see Great Tusk or Cinderace breaking the tier with Tera. People may compare it to Gems from Gen 5, which allowed for cheap wins, but I think Tera is more smartly designed than Gems. For one, you can only Tera once a game, and two, there is more of a risk/reward to using it. Terastallizing your Weavile to 2HKO Skarmory is a high benefit, but the cost is you can’t defensively Tera to react to a setup sweeper or stop something from snowballing you. Terastallizing Gliscor to remove your Ice weakness now leaves you vulnerable to spikes.

Second only to another mon on the survey, I want this gone ASAP. Its incredibly limiting for bulkier builds. Pigeonholing Balance/BO to Gking + Steel or Volcarona. It also has other sets besides Specs that are equally broken like HDB, and Dragon Dance. Kyurem could also tech Stone Edge to snipe Volc or Tera Ground Earth Power for Gking and Steels. You could make the argument that we need a strong wallbreaker in the tier, but the tier is not lacking those .

(Weavile, Specs Keldeo, Darkrai, Great Tusk, Azumarill, Samu, Heatran, Hydrapple, Gholdengo)

Banning Kyurem would actually allow more room for wallbreakers. If Kyu gets banned we could simply substitute it for Weavile, Raging Bolt, or Hydrapple.

Not everyone will agree with me, but Gouging Fire might be broken, after spamming CB sets with Slither Wing on ladder. I wrote it off as just a one-trick pony, but it’s more than that. Unlike its predecessors CB Victini or CB Darm, G-Fire is much bulkier. It 2HKOs the entire tier under Sun while having physical bulk that rivals Toxapex, and outspeeds Great Tusk by a few points. If you’ve seen that replay I posted on the forums of CB G-Fire ripping apart an entire team even after Gliscor clicks Tera Water, you’ll understand. With its bulk it could easily take hits and claim a kill. The broken part is that they won’t know its CB or DD until it’s too late.

Ban this shit. Nothing has changed to make it not broken. Your only form of counterplay is to either run Dozo, hope Weavile kills it, use Skarm, or get off a Toxic with Gliscor, the latter of these gets shutdown by Taunt variants and Weavile doesn’t even fucking kill it with rocks + Tera Ice.

252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 220-260 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Moon also can get safe opportunities to set up because of its solid bulk and defensive typing. It also could tech + Speed Proto to outrun Iron Boulder and Adamant Barra after a DD, so no, revenge killing it is hardly an option at times. Even without the additional power boost from + Attack Proto, you still shut down Skarm and Gliscor with Tera Flying Taunt. Unhealthy and adds nothing to the tier.

Compared to the other three, Arch doesn’t seem as immediately broken. However the Ape/Blood Moon comparison Magcargo made is painfully true. Under Rain it can pick up 1-2 kills at worst because it’s so tanky with Stamina + Assault Vest, and is difficult to OHKO. Steel/Dragon only has a weakness to Fighting and Ground. Fighting types cannot switch into Arch at all and Ground Types either can’t switch into Draco or don’t do significantly enough damage of stop it from just racking up Electro Shot boosts and putting them in Draco range.

Though now that I think about it, Arch is more of a 3 than a 4. Offensive teams have enough horsepower to one shot it, and SpD Lando, Ting-Lu are bulky enough to take it on. Also stuff like Treads and Excadrill who rose in popularity due to their ability to check Raging Bolt.

I think Ghold is healthy, despite it’s chokehold on the hazard metagame. Most Tusks are offensive these days, so spinblocking becomes more challenging. There are also six fucking offensive Dark types right now, so Ghold is easier to offensively pressure. Volcarona is a fantastic check to it, as well as its old check Ting-Lu. Spike stacking HOs are rarer because the current spike leads either only get 1 layer a game due to being frail/slow, or get shutdown by Hatt, so HOs use Ghold less. Ghold even ditch coverage like Focus Miss or Psyshock more frequently, because making use of its defensive merits with Recover is more important to help teams check Zama, Boulder, Valiant, and Kyurem. Its a fantastic defensive glue that also acts as a breaker.

I don’t mind Gambit that much tbh. May be a little stupid into Skarmless builds, but Gambit’s pick and choose nature goes from the reason it was broken to the reason it’s not. Raging Bolt is tanky enough to eat a Sucker and win the 1v1 with its own Sucker Punch, also severely punishes Tera Flying. Volc and Tran can punish non-Lum/Tera Fire variants with burns. Tera Dark is scary, but Zama and BU Tusk have no problem checking you. Dozo is more common on fat builds thanks to Wogre’s usage dipping. There is also Arch which is rarer on non-Rain builds, but punishes Gambit amazingly well.

Funny how we all agreed that Deo-S isn’t broken. Offensively, it lacks defensive utility, and there are other strong fast threats like Pult who can do its job. As a spiker, Hatt shits on it and most teams prefer fatter spike setters, or Samurott. Needs Life Orb to be threatening which makes it easy to pivot around. I like what it brings to the tier though. Outspeeds DD G-Fire and other annoying stuff.

Volcarona is not on the survey but I’m surprised it wasn’t even mentioned. Later down the line it could be broken since Tera Ground Blast/Fiery/Bug Buzz hits almost everything, but rn you could play around it with T-Wave Pult, RillaTran, Toxic Gking, etc.

Also wanna mention that as of rn, I am currently top 250 on the ladder in my main even though it didn’t show on the survey.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

High enjoyment. Kyurem 3 as the highest for me other than ghould(4) who I'm still most willing to suspect and see how good defog meta is.

Sleep 5.

If sleep mod stays make a freeze clause of no freeze

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Tera: No Action, I think we need Tera more than ever in this metagame. There are just far too many threats to account for with Pokemon alone, and I feel like you need defensive Tera just to try and patch the inevitable holes in your team. Ban the abusers keep the mechanic. We need it just to stay afloat.

Use the problem to fix the problem. This is the problem with gen 9 in regards to tera, we wouldn't need it if those mons were banned in the first place. And it's not like they're not at least suspect worthy without tera. Kingambit, Roaring moon, volcarona, dragonite, iron Valiant, Garganacl. The list of abusers Is massive, and game to game changes.

 

[senorlopez]

As someone who has looked at the data and the outcomes here

if you're a qualified voter and you want to actually make change or keep the status quo vote 1 or 5 - don't bother mid-grounding, you're wasting your vote.

If you're not a qualified voter and you want to actually make change or keep the status quo, get qualified then do the above.

Won't elaborate.

 

[YubelVT]

As someone who has looked at the data and the outcomes here

if you're a qualified voter and you want to actually make change or keep the status quo vote 1 or 5 - don't bother mid-grounding, you're wasting your vote.

If you're not a qualified voter and you want to actually make change or keep the status quo, get qualified.

Won't elaborate.

Instructions unclear: skill issues not resolved

How do I proceed from here

Use the problem to fix the problem. This is the problem with gen 9 in regards to tera, we wouldn't need it if those mons were banned in the first place. And it's not like they're not at least suspect worthy without tera. Kingambit, Roaring moon, volcarona, dragonite, iron Valiant, Garganacl. The list of abusers Is massive, and game to game changes.

I've gotten off of some of my shit and have realized that Kingambit is not banworthy without tera. Volc will be the matchup moth and dragonite will be much more handleable. Garg hasn't been banworthy since pre-home and Roaring Moon needs to go anyway.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

I've gotten off of some of my shit and have realized that Kingambit is not banworthy without tera. Volc will be the matchup moth and dragonite will be much more handleable. Garg hasn't been banworthy since pre-home and Roaring Moon needs to go anyway.

I agree with everything here except with garg and Roaring Moon. Garg forced the tier to run Covert cloak on a variety of mons, and was difficult to deal with offensively. The only reason it fell off is because the options used to deal with it happen to also be effective vs Kingambit sucker punch games. Despite the adaptations it still is viable and able to win games due to its curse set, ability and general bulk. Roaring moon I'm not sure of because dd uses tera and cb hasn't seen much use recently. I could see it being problematic but I'm not sold.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I'm surprised people are having trouble with G fire, sure it's really hard to deal with on sun after a dd but in practice it's just exploitable enough to be fine honestly

I have given Kyurem and Roaring Moon a 5 for obvious reasons as well as sleep, all 3 are problematic

 

[Welcome to mars]

this might sound very odd but i gave most of the stuff put up for trial here a 2 or 1 and im not 100% on gambit being a 3

i don’t really see much wrong with the metagame and i have been enjoying it

skill is actually required and i feel this is easily the best version of generation nine overused

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

enjoyment: 7
i'm still having a lot of fun in this meta, even with the obvious issues in it such as the broken dragon-types and the meteoric rise of stupid sleep cheese teams. i would've thought the fun would die down by now but if it weren't for a couple things i'd probably be having as much fun, or more, than i was on day 1 (although for different reasons)

competitive: 6
not as balanced as it initially appeared, but i don't think it's ludicrously unbalanced like some people seem to. there are only a few things i see and think "i can't build around this" or "i can't play around this without dedicating too much teamspace to answering it". hazards are still stupid

sleep: there are not enough atoms in the universe to even convey the concept of the size of the number i would put here
i always saw sleep as low-key uncompetitive but i initially didn't see it as a big problem worthy of discussion outside of hypnosis darkrai being dumb cheese (exactly like i predicted), but then it started extending to other mons like valiant (which i also predicted), strats like sun sleep—hilligant, venusaur somehow, i swear i saw an exeggutor once—and other flavors of cheese like red card amogus. then i started reading up on policy and tiering philosophy to be better informed about the debate and realized that we should have banned sleep twenty years ago. it's finally time to wake up and put this nonsense to bed so we can all rest easy

tera: no action
i think tera is healthy, fits very well into the tier, makes matches a lot more engaging, and has defensive utility that's preventing the meta from being "oops! all offense". removing tera is a very risky move and would probably end up being a disaster because it's likely that we'd just end up with a bunch of stupid breakers and sweepers that liked tera but never relied on it vs. a bunch of defensive mons that absolutely rely on it. i still think an eventual suspect would probably be a good move just to get a firm and permanent answer to the question, but i don't think it would succeed, and now's definitely not the time

5
it's doing the same dumb special-breaker nonsense it did last gen but now it also has the option of running loaded dice multi-hit physical sets, and going tera ground to boost earth power (for special sets) or give it a pseudo-eq with tera blast (for physical sets) while turning its rocks weakness into a resist, plus it's got the snow buff now. it's like an unholy fusion of last gen's kyurem and baxcalibur and it needs to go

4
this thing's a menace, especially in sun. the ddance set has very limited counterplay, all of which is mashed into the dirt by the band set. band 2hkos dozo in sun and 6-0s stall on preview, ddance ravages offense and still murders stall if you play well and get unaware/mola/pex out of the way. if you try to predict which one it is and guess wrong, you die

4
the good news is that nothing about roaring moon has changed since dlc1. the bad news is that nothing about roaring moon has changed since dlc1. except that sneasler, one of the few things that could challenge it offensively even after two ddances, is now gone (good fucking riddance). i think bringing it back was the right decision just to see if it was still a problem, but we've had our time to test our hypothesis, the results have come in, and all signs point to yet another salamence ban

2
i've personally had absolutely zero problems taking care of this thing, but i've been running a lot of sun so i haven't actually seen a rain team perform the way rain teams are supposed to in a while. even outside of that, the mon just… i dunno, it just doesn't feel broken to me. other people are raising a big stink about it, saying it's the second most broken thing in the meta, comparing it to dracovish, but i just think it's too rain-reliant to be broken, even if it's very strong. that said, i can't in good conscience rate this a 1 because the amount of skilled people insisting it's broken is too large to ignore

5
hazards still stupid, ghold still stupid, kill it. i know it's never going to score enough on a survey to do anything about it but i don't care, i'll rate this thing 5 as many times as it comes up

5
fuck this mon

1
this thing fell off. it turns out that fast spikes is usually not as good as fat spikes, its damage output leaves a lot to be desired even with nasty plot, and even its speed isn't the nightmare many of us thought it would be. it's a good mon, no doubt, but its strengths aren't as strong and its weaknesses are weaker than anticipated

 

[P3DS]

Pretty simple, not a fan of the current format. It's a bit meh.

On sleep, I'm on the ban Darkrai and Valiant side. It's all down to a high variance format, and I think it's not something we need to deal with now outside of banning the abusers. We didn't do this with Shed Tail (we hit Cyc then banned it) and we didn't do it with Last Respects (We banned Houndstone, then banned it when Basc dropped post HOME). We also banned Annihilape instead of Rage Fist, and haven't seen Primeape rise up. So, we ban Darkrai and Valiant inline with the precedence. I think banning sleep moves is just another knee-jerk reaction - follow precedence, and kick these 2. Valiant would likely go in the long run anyway, or Booster Energy. I think sleep is something that needs a bit more thought.

On tera, we're too early. Tier out the broken bs first, then we can check it.

As for the other Mons, pretty much think everything needs tiering action on it in one way or another, and mentioned Darkrai and Valiant/Booster.

 

[CD56]

I don’t see How

is remotely problematic even still, in fact it has gotten more and more tame in my opinion as time has progressed. Yes its bulky and can potentially sweep you but it has to weaken a team considerably before going for the sweep. It can trade well into everything, but then the opponent can likely respond to it in time afterwards, even with morning sun. Morning Sun’s low PP can also sometimes be a detriment to the DD sets against defensive teams, and it struggles vs unaware pokemon like dondozo. If you are running booster energy, you must run strong anti-hazard measures such as hatterene or multiple spinners, limiting usefulness. If you do not employ these measures, it gets shredded by rocks and can no longer sweep or trade effectively. HDB is the better item on it and is a great fit but it can lack power without a boost from its ability. It has ways to get around all types of counterplay, but it cannot get past every avenue of counterplay all at once, therefore I find it to be NOT broken at all. I find that

is the much bigger problem here. Much more unpredictable and hard to stop after one turn than something like Gouging Fire or even Roaring Moon, who still has similar answers on most of its sets for the most part even if STAB Knock Off is insane. Kyurem can be physically or specially oriented, making it way more dangerous, not to mention the HDB are also excellent on top of specs and DD. If you guess the set wrong you auto lose most of the time. The other things on this list dont have this problem, therefore I find Kyurem to be banworthy and i think everything else is fince except maybe roaring moon but im not 100% sure about that.