Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Avira]

I can't agree with you, Lily, that banning Gholdengo would only slightly improve the hazards situation. Just look at NatDex in which we have every Defogger that ever existed, and Gholdengo is still a problem in that format because of how difficult it makes it to clear hazards. Gholdengo can also Tera to OHKO Great Tusk if it thinks it can stay in to kill Gholdengo if the match-up allows for that, and that's one reason why I believe Gholdengo could be healthy in a Teraless meta since it can't just shed its weaknesses to eliminate counterplay to it.

However, Gholdengo is an overbearing sweeping threat and hazard removal denier all with one set in this current meta in which Tera is legal with no ability to address random Tera Ghost spinblocking before the next Tera suspect test, and that is why it should be banned to relieve the chokehold it has over building. Yeah, Skeledirge, Dragapult, Ceruledge, Skeledirge, Sinistcha, and Basculegion are all usable to good spinblockers to various degrees, but they are for more the most part, a lot more exploitable either due to various reasons, such as more exploitable typings (see Skeledirge and Ceruledge who need to Tera to not get dumped by Great Tusk), lower bulk (252 Atk Headlong Rush can do 90% to Dragapult and does a ton to Basculegion), or lack of reliable recovery (Sinistcha) despite whatever useful niche as hazard removal they have.

I don't agree that you just won't be able to spin if your opponent doesn't want you to with Gholdengo gone. All of those spinblockers are clearly worse at doing their job than Gholdengo is aside from Tera Ghost Ting-Lu due to its Giratina-level bulk. I get that you want Gliscor banned, but I will not accept any downplaying of Gholdengo's negative effect on the hazards game in a format with Terastal legal. Ban Gholdengo first. If need be, ban Gliscor as well. There is no need to downplay Gholdengo's effect on the meta.

Judging by your post though, I'm assuming Gliscor was the highest-scoring mon on the latest survey, so a ban is likely incoming. The hazards situation will still be shit with Gliscor gone since we're not addressing Gholdengo in a meta with Tera legal and Tera Ghost spinblocking in general. Corviknight is highly abusable as you say, but having one consistent option for hazard removal is better than having 0 consistent hazard removal. I feel you're the one missing the forest in the trees with your insistence to not see that having 1 close to guaranteed removal option (watch out for Taunt) is better than what we have now. The root problem with the meta is Terastal inflating the power level of all the offensive mons as well as shitting on hazard removal.

 

[Finchinator]

. Just look at NatDex in which we have every Defogger that ever existed, and Gholdengo is still a problem in that format because of how difficult it makes it to clear hazards.

You realize this just proves Lily's point though, right?

She listed every Defog user and how it is only Corviknight that is truly shafted in terms of OU, but National Dex has access to every Defog user, which widens the scope of possible things for Gholdengo to block. National Dex may have more possible "checks" or "counters" to Gholdengo, but it has more possibilities it can stifle, too. Those possibilities are not present in OU as Lily listed.

Personally I am in favor of suspecting Gholdengo due to its overall presence, but I really think you should think through this bit as it really does not work in your favor and proves what Lily was saying.

 

[Avira]

You realize this just proves Lily's point though, right?

She listed every Defog user and how it is only Corviknight that is truly shafted in terms of OU, but National Dex has access to every Defog user, which widens the scope of possible things for Gholdengo to block. National Dex may have more possible "checks" or "counters" to Gholdengo, but it has more possibilities it can stifle, too. Those possibilities are not present in OU as Lily listed.

Personally I am in favor of suspecting Gholdengo due to its overall presence, but I really think you should think through this bit as it really does not work in your favor and proves what Lily was saying.

The way I see it, having 1 reliable hazard control option in Corviknight is better than having 0 reliable removers like we do now. If Great Tusk were reliable, there wouldn't be so many people running Cinderace and Great Tusk on the same team. Gholdengo is the one preventing the meta from having a consistent unblockable-aside-from-Taunt removal option in Corviknight, who also has Pressure to outlast hazard setters. Yes, I realize that Corviknight is a highly abusable Pokemon that doesn't fit on every team, but having the option to use Defog Corviknight without thinking about whether you wasted a moveslot on Defog 1/3 of the time would noticeably improve the meta.

 

[Finchinator]

The way I see it, having 1 reliable hazard control option in Corviknight is better than having 0 reliable removers like we do now.

I am not saying that is not true. I am saying that your National Dex comparison does not prove your point at all, but rather it proves Lily's commentary on the metagame.

The impact Gholdengo has on the Defog metagame is noteworthy, but also the strong position it has in the balance match-up with NP + Recover sets, the ability to block Defog, and the other merits of Good as Gold also are going for it.

The fact of the matter is Corviknight is not entitled to Defog freely -- nothing is and this standalone does not break Gholdengo (or else it would arguably break Magnezone, too, for example). It can be a major contributing factor, sure, but I think we need to consider context more in terms of other things Gholdengo can do as well as things Gholdengo cannot do.

 

[RaikouLover]

Boy I'm just racking up the pointless battles right now.

Cosmic Power Jirachi setting up on Banded Sam-H?
Kommo-O setting up on Zapdos' Hurricane?
Manaphy setting up on Banded Meowscarada?

Just another day in Gen 9 OU.

 

[Heatranator]

So I've been theory crafting a bit, and I think that if tangrowth were in the game, it would be a huge help. Two sets that I've come up with are pretty good into the top metagame threats.
First is the full Defense set that counters Gliscor, Kingambit and Ogerpon-Wellspring

Tangrowth @ Lum Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Worry Seed
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake/Focus blast

Tera type depends on personal preference but this moveset can make these threats much more managable.

Wall of calcs

Gliscor matchup
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 119-140 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Kingambit matchup
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 124-146 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 428-508 (125.5 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ogerpon-Wellspring matchup
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 167-197 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Next is the assault vest set that is good against the general threats of the metagame

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast

Again, tera type is varied, but it does do well against Gliscor, Gholdengo, Manaphy and Iron valiant.

Another wall of calcs

Gliscor matchup
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
Gholdengo matchup
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-174 (46.3 - 55.2%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 150-178 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Gholdengo Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 70-84 (17.3 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 310-366 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Manaphy matchup
252 SpA Manaphy Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 57-68 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 141-167 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 176-210 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 433-510 (107.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 278-328 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Iron valiant matchup
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 133-157 (46 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah, sorry to anyone that read all that, but TLDR Tangrowth is amazing into all of the top meta threats.

 

[Finchinator]

Surveys are at the heart of our OU tiering. I logged the recent results and what they led to.

This started witn the competitiveness of the metagame here, but also evolved into each individual Pokemon and the cause-and-effect we saw occur here.

These are as transparent and detailed as possible, so I implore everyone to take a look. It explains how we got here and what is coming next at length.

 

[tommytt22]

So I've been theory crafting a bit, and I think that if tangrowth were in the game, it would be a huge help. Two sets that I've come up with are pretty good into the top metagame threats.
First is the full Defense set that counters Gliscor, Kingambit and Ogerpon-Wellspring

Tangrowth @ Lum Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Worry Seed
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake/Focus blast

Tera type depends on personal preference but this moveset can make these threats much more managable.

Wall of calcs

Gliscor matchup
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 119-140 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Kingambit matchup
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 124-146 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 428-508 (125.5 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ogerpon-Wellspring matchup
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 167-197 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Next is the assault vest set that is good against the general threats of the metagame

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast

Again, tera type is varied, but it does do well against Gliscor, Gholdengo, Manaphy and Iron valiant.

Another wall of calcs

Gliscor matchup
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
Gholdengo matchup
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-174 (46.3 - 55.2%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 150-178 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Gholdengo Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 70-84 (17.3 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 310-366 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Manaphy matchup
252 SpA Manaphy Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 57-68 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 141-167 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 176-210 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 433-510 (107.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 278-328 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Iron valiant matchup
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 133-157 (46 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah, sorry to anyone that read all that, but TLDR Tangrowth is amazing into all of the top meta threats.

Tangrowth is the pokemon i miss most physdef sets are incredible

 

[KamenOH]

Surveys are at the heart of our OU tiering. I logged the recent results and what they led to.

This started witn the competitiveness of the metagame here, but also evolved into each individual Pokemon and the cause-and-effect we saw occur here.

These are as transparent and detailed as possible, so I implore everyone to take a look. It explains how we got here and what is coming next at length.

Been a day since I voted on the actual recent survey, was the quickban vote 10 for more qbs or 1 for more qbs since I remember voting 1 on that but not what 1 was

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Surveys are at the heart of our OU tiering. I logged the recent results and what they led to.

This started witn the competitiveness of the metagame here, but also evolved into each individual Pokemon and the cause-and-effect we saw occur here.

These are as transparent and detailed as possible, so I implore everyone to take a look. It explains how we got here and what is coming next at length.

speaking as the one of the most prominent voices in the "ban gambit" movement, i think it's fucked up that people are trying to rig the survey in favor of my position with spambots. that's a scummy thing to do and it'll ruin things for everyone. people doing that, if you're reading the forums, know this: you are losers and you're only doing that because you lack the talent, charisma, personality, or community goodwill to influence the vote in any legitimate way. stop it.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

So I've been theory crafting a bit, and I think that if tangrowth were in the game, it would be a huge help. Two sets that I've come up with are pretty good into the top metagame threats.
First is the full Defense set that counters Gliscor, Kingambit and Ogerpon-Wellspring

Tangrowth @ Lum Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Worry Seed
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake/Focus blast

Tera type depends on personal preference but this moveset can make these threats much more managable.

Wall of calcs

Gliscor matchup
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 119-140 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Kingambit matchup
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 124-146 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 428-508 (125.5 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ogerpon-Wellspring matchup
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 137-162 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 167-197 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Next is the assault vest set that is good against the general threats of the metagame

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast

Again, tera type is varied, but it does do well against Gliscor, Gholdengo, Manaphy and Iron valiant.

Another wall of calcs

Gliscor matchup
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 36.6% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal
Gholdengo matchup
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-174 (46.3 - 55.2%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Tangrowth Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 150-178 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Gholdengo Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 70-84 (17.3 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 310-366 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Manaphy matchup
252 SpA Manaphy Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 57-68 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 141-167 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 176-210 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 433-510 (107.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 0 SpA Manaphy Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 278-328 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Iron valiant matchup
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 133-157 (46 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Tangrowth: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah, sorry to anyone that read all that, but TLDR Tangrowth is amazing into all of the top meta threats.

Tangrowth doesn't exist in SV

 

[Finchinator]

Been a day since I voted on the actual recent survey, was the quickban vote 10 for more qbs or 1 for more qbs since I remember voting 1 on that but not what 1 was

10 was more aggessive, 1 was more conservative

 

[Finchinator]

speaking as the one of the most prominent voices in the "ban gambit" movement, i think it's fucked up that people are trying to rig the survey in favor of my position with spambots. that's a scummy thing to do and it'll ruin things for everyone. people doing that, if you're reading the forums, knock it off

It has happened before with other Pokemon -- it just is the major flaw of google forms and why we are likely to pivot to a more official, forum based infastructure one day soon!

 

[KamenOH]

It has happened before with other Pokemon -- it just is the major flaw of google forms and why we are likely to pivot to a more official, forum based infastructure one day soon!

>be me
>be u/finchinator
>post survey thread where everyone can post their responses to the survey
>have to weed through literal cesspools for some juicy data
>over half the replies aren't even formatted correctly
>in the end people still complain that kingambit isn't quickbanned

 

[Finchinator]

 

[ausma]

did finch LEAK the plan!?!?!??!?!?!
Corrupt ou council moment

 

[Shinto7654]

Confirmed Finch takes an hour to put away laundry

 

[Lily]

I get that you want Gliscor banned, but I will not accept any downplaying of Gholdengo's negative effect on the hazards game in a format with Terastal legal. Ban Gholdengo first. If need be, ban Gliscor as well. There is no need to downplay Gholdengo's effect on the meta.

To be absolutely clear on this - I don't think I actually really want Gliscor banned, I just think it's a reasonable way to tackle the hazard issue which has felt worse post-DLC because it's by far the most long-lasting Spiker. I'm also not trying to downplay Gholdengo's effect on the meta. It's really really strong, but that's mostly because of how good it is at breaking and how few long-lasting checks there are to its NP sets, not because of its effect on the hazard meta. If that balance breaking is enough to make it worth getting rid of, then by all means go for it - I don't know if I have a fully formed opinion on that yet, but it's probably something that at least deserves a suspect test.

My core argument boils down to the fact that hazards in their current form are strong enough and widespread enough that if you want to build a hazard stack team, you'll be able to keep them up much easier than your opponent will keep them off. In previous generations this dynamic wasn't rlly present because there were more Defoggers and less Spikers.

Finch covered pretty much everything else I wanted to say.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

did finch LEAK the plan!?!?!??!?!?!
Corrupt ou council moment

inb4 it's a qb and this was a bait
please

 

[kosecant]

To be absolutely clear on this - I don't think I actually really want Gliscor banned, I just think it's a reasonable way to tackle the hazard issue which has felt worse post-DLC because it's by far the most long-lasting Spiker. I'm also not trying to downplay Gholdengo's effect on the meta. It's really really strong, but that's mostly because of how good it is at breaking and how few long-lasting checks there are to its NP sets, not because of its effect on the hazard meta. If that balance breaking is enough to make it worth getting rid of, then by all means go for it - I don't know if I have a fully formed opinion on that yet, but it's probably something that at least deserves a suspect test.

My core argument boils down to the fact that hazards in their current form are strong enough and widespread enough that if you want to build a hazard stack team, you'll be able to keep them up much easier than your opponent will keep them off. In previous generations this dynamic wasn't rlly present because there were more Defoggers and less Spikers.

Finch covered pretty much everything else I wanted to say.

While you’re here Lily, I wanted to ask you something. What’s the general consensus on Tera in UU? It’s not a meta I’m active in, but there’s been a lot of back and forth here about whether or not it leads to a disproportionate amount of bans in lower tiers. What do you think as the current UU leader?

 

[Lily]

While you’re here Lily, I wanted to ask you something. What’s the general consensus on Tera in UU? It’s not a meta I’m active in, but there’s been a lot of back and forth here about whether or not it leads to a disproportionate amount of bans in lower tiers. What do you think as the current UU leader?

Probably not the best topic for this thread tbh it's probably better here, but it's much less polarising than in OU; there are definitely a fair few Tera haters but for the most part it seems either liked or at least accepted by most of the community. In general I've found that lower tier communities are much more likely to "take what's given" if that makes sense, which is not a shot at OU players or anything at all. I imagine the mentality is mostly just a byproduct of being at the mercy of shifts all the time lol

 

[ayevon]

don't really feel like writing something long but i strongly disagree with lily's sentiment that the addition of defog corv and weezing wouldn't be massive differences in terms of alleviating the stress of hazards on the metagame, or that they, especially corviknight with ID, are incredibly passive and easy to take advantage of. If both Gholdengo and Gliscor are that closely rated on the survey, I think it's genuinely awful order operations to suspect Gliscor first.

 

[heileone]

I just want to see a world where corv could click defog without worrying about letting ghold in for free and also not removing hazards. Like how are gliscor or ting lu going to keep hazards up vs corv? It can just come in every time they try and defog them away instantly. Or you can go into a strong breaker that threatens them(read: waterpon) on the first spike and then come in with corv on them later. Of course stuff like sammy and shocks would still be excellent spikers, but they are much frailer.

 

[SittinGamer]

don't really feel like writing something long but i strongly disagree with lily's sentiment that the addition of defog corv and weezing wouldn't be massive differences in terms of alleviating the stress of hazards on the metagame, or that they, especially corviknight with ID, are incredibly passive and easy to take advantage of. If both Gholdengo and Gliscor are that closely rated on the survey, I think it's genuinely awful order operations to suspect Gliscor first.

Whatever the case, the qualified playerbase has Gliscor multiple tenths of a point ahead of Gholdengo in terms of the necessity of tiering action.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

don't really feel like writing something long but i strongly disagree with lily's sentiment that the addition of defog corv and weezing wouldn't be massive differences in terms of alleviating the stress of hazards on the metagame, or that they, especially corviknight with ID, are incredibly passive and easy to take advantage of. If both Gholdengo and Gliscor are that closely rated on the survey, I think it's genuinely awful order operations to suspect Gliscor first.

i disagree with the sentiment that more defoggers wouldn't be a huge change too, but i still think that gliscor is bullshit enough on its own merits that we have to kick it out before we do the same with ghold

anyway, i'm going to bed now, if i wake up and there's no suspect thread i'm gonna make fun of finch for taking too long to put away laundry