Seems like you didn't quite finish your thought here? Curious to what you'd suggest instead. I don't think open tera types is necessarily a perfect fix either, it's just a middle ground between those who are frustrated with 50-50 tera typings and those who are ok with tera as it is now. The way I see it, open team sheet/open tera types is like having open decklists in a TCG tournament-- lists are there so you know generally what to expect, but of course you can't know exactly what's in your opponent's hand or what they'll choose to play on any given turn, which cuts down on "gotcha" moments while preserving the skill expression of making reads and responding to plays properly.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Choice scarf skeledirge. Funnily enough, it outspeeds jolly meowscarada by one speed point. Kinda like shell smash torterra against dragapult, which is also a mon I like using. It has a lot of suprise factor and I just like seeing the croc outspeed most of the tier.
I believe an important part of skill expression in Pokemon is to figure out your opponents' sets based on team composition or by adjusting your expectations as the match progresses based on what is revealed. Being handed that information gives too much information and limits competition in a competitive meta in my opinion.
For a similar reason, Open Tera types/Tera Preview can increase the number of stomp match-ups by letting your opponent infer exactly how you plan on outplaying a bad match-up, and I believe this is still bad for the meta and too information for the players. I think basic team preview at start is the way Pokemon should be played.
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Gliscor doesn't need Gholdengo support though, it can keep getting multiple layers up reliably even if they are successfully removed multiple times. Why are some of the best teams right now, Supa Gmoney Unaware Clef Stall, and Xavgb Milotic Balance, succeeding with Gliscor and no Ghold? How are they able to successfully maintain hazard pressure without Gholdengo if it's truly what's tied to Gliscor's brokenness? Why is staying in on Ice Spinner Tusk to get a toxic on it then using protect before switching a legitimate play that ends in gliscor's favor long-term?
if we ban Ghold but not Gliscor then we guarantee all teams run Gliscor and no other setter as other setters are carried by Ghold much more due to worse matchups into and less capability to threaten prominent hazard removers. Regardless of how you feel about Ghold, Gliscor is #1.
I agree with this. I was originally a proponent of Tera preview but the information leak it provides in revealing defensive holes in a team has soured me on the idea.
As someone who is well versed in competitive TCGs it is important to remember part of the reason deck lists are given out is for fairness. If I'm a known player or part of a team people are going to try and figure out what my list is which puts certain players at a disadvantage especially early. I don't know about recent events, but I know deck lists didn't become public until after round one since that is when players could have scouted for information advantage. The same holds true in VGC. If you're in an event with Wolf people are going to try and see what he's running and this removes the element of surprise from his choices. All players should be at the same level in big tournaments in terms of the information war and this is the only way to control for that.
I think I generally agree with you here, and like I said I don't necessarily think open tera is a perfect solution, it was just my middle ground suggestion for those who feel Tera is too much of a gotcha at times. For the record, I like the Tera mechanic and I'm perfectly fine with being outplayed by a tera type I didn't expect (and have won a few games off unusual tera combos myself).
that does seem kinda heat actually, especially because there's a very low chance of any of those popping a tera if you bluff correctlyThe meta has issues
Ive been using Zoroark-Hwith quite a lot of success. Expert belt, it easily OHKOs lures the following: Gliscor, Gholdengo, Great Tusks, Hatterene and it hits like a truck while outspeeding a big bunch of falks. Also great typing.
Set is:
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot
- Flamethrower
- Icy Wind
BECAUSE TEAMS ARE BUILT WITH GHOLD IN MIND, NOT USING GHOLD DOESN’T MEAN THAT EVERYONE ELSE ISN’T BUILDING WITH IT IN MIND ANYMORE
this is true, but why are teams not also built with gliscor in mind? (the answer is because gliscor has no real answers)
Ice Beam Clefable and Corviknight are good checks to Spikes Gliscor, but Gholdengo suppresses the usage of both those mons because of how much it owns them. Maybe Gliscor will still be a problem with Gholdengo gone, but Gholdengo enables Gliscor more than the other way around even in an indirect way with its influence on the meta when they're not paired together, which is why I believe a Gholdengo ban should come first. If Gliscor is still an issue, we can always quickban it later.
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Again, my main argument here is that Ghold should 100% be tested before Gliscor. Removing Ghold from the meta allows people to experiment with Gliscor checks that otherwise wouldn't be viable due to Ghold's presence. I couldn't begin to tell you what those checks might be as this is a metagame discussion, not a theorycrafting one. That being said, any discussion of checks or counters goes completely out the window in a tera meta....
? Ghold isn't suppressing ice beam clef. It's just less useful than flamethrower/tbolt. Ice/fairy is rather redundant coverage.
It may not be the best coverage move, but in a Gholdengo meta, Ice Beam is a completely dead slot as is. With Gholdengo gone, Ice Beam hits Gliscor, Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, Enamorus, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Rillaboom, and Amoonguss in one slot, which makes it usable to an extent even if it's bad vs. Corviknight, which would be its most common switch-in. You also don't need to necessarily use SR on Clefable even though it's one of the better Stealth Rock users and can fit something to hit Corviknight and Kingambit with.
I'm thinking something along the lines of Ice Beam, Moonlight, Moonblast/Flamethrower, Encore would be ideal in a post-Gholdengo meta with Gliscor as the top dog although this is all moot if Gliscor gets banned.
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Yeah, modest might get a few more KOs but not sure if the speed tier drop would be too much... Probably not.
Definitely agreed, information is a big part of the battle and in tournaments hiding your list from the competition is huge in not getting hard counterpicked/counterplayed. As far as the average ladder experience is concerned I don't think open teams/open Tera is necessary, it just seems to me that a lot of the argument against Tera is that it's so much of a wildcard since it could potentially be any type on any mon, and I felt open tera is an easy-to-make middle ground that cuts down on the frustration of gambling against tera possibilities. That said, I'm down to let the council and/or community cook on different solutions that aren't an outright ban on the tera mechanic, and I'm interested to see how the discussion progresses after DLC2 mechanics are revealed
Corv, hatterene, clef, reg slowking, and tech moves like worry seed amoonguss or skill swap ribombee are all very prone to ghold.
Other answers like torn t or dondozo aren’t extremely weak to ghold, but are nerfed by its presence (torn t is forced to run heat wave > focus blast, dozo can’t use curse sets because it has to choose between being unable to hit oger-w or ghold).
Goated take, using Tera requires skill. Its pretty annoying seeing Rands complain about Tera being too unexpectable, Something is Meta for a reason meaning that those sets/tera more common + are often paired with the same mons. Thats the reason you don't see any Tera Bug Ceruledge. Just by the team composition its pretty easy to tell what the Tera is unless they are running some "Heat". People run Meta things for a reason meaning that they are more common + are often paired with the same mons. I remember when I used to be stuck in the 1300s, I could never get the Tera predict on Skeledirge right, but learning how to scout/position really helps predicting what the Tera is + when Tera is going to be popped. For example, Protect/Fake-Out scouting is really good as well as safe plays help really well. Learning Metagame trends are also really helpful as most Teras are switched to counter the current meta. Thats why we saw a HUGE rise in Tera Blast Fairy Kingambit in the pre-dlc Meta to hit Great Tusk and Iron Valiant (Huge Bulk + Encore). but now we don't see it anymore. Loosing your Grass resist when Rillaboom is a really common form of opposing priority is bad. Now, we are seeing a rise in Tera Flying again. Also Tera Rock Banded Meow in pre-home to counter the birds. Maybe more mons will slot Tera Blast Ice for Gliscor.
On the topic of Tera Blast, Its a 1 for me. You have to commit a moveslot, which is really tough when Tera is everywhere so you loose coverage as well as committing just to use it. Just the fact that you need to burn Tera to use this move is what makes it balanced. Its nothing like Hidden Power as you can just click that for free. Burning your tera already makes a team really predictable meaning that its not as effective anymore.
Or maybe this is the first format I ever played idk.
Hatt is no better at blocking hazards in a nonvhold metagame. Clef is literally used on Gliscor teams, regular slowking is struggling for reasons that have little to do with ghold. And worry seed amoonguss? Come on.
Torn and don are not answers. They're toxic bait. And don not being to run curse (it still can lol) is just metagames development. It's not a sign of Ghold or anything. That's just reaching.
Ice beam clef has been a staple for multiple generations. Ghold definitely suppresses clef in general as it can't really hinder it with any of it's utility moves and the opportunity cost of constantly letting in a hard hitting setup mon freely is extremely high.
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Yeah, I heard that the OU council was lobbied by Big Stall to ban Gliscor for spamming Toxic against Dondozo and Alomomola. You simply can't trust a council that is sympathetic to Toxapex.
Has it? I can't recall the last time I saw it even thinking last gen. I'm used to seeing thunder/fire as secondary coverage.
Stopped reading right here. There is nothing in this world more valuable than a Clefable moveslot, Ice Beam Clefable is a problem not a solution
You know I get the feeling that's not the only reason can't begin to tell us where these so-called new Gliscor checks would be (it's literally just Corv, and Gliscor already loves knocking it off, getting another spike off, protect as necessary, then u-turn out)
Even when that's not the case now, eg when someone is using defog Corv despite it being very unreliable, Gliscor succeeds at maintaining hazard pressure with team support and with the new adaptation U-Turn because Corv has other challenges (defog sets are passive)
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scarf hsamu and colbur berry glowking are some of my favorites. specs wo chien is also very funny and is surprisingly not terrible. definitely bad, but not terrible.
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Galarian weezing loses to gholdengo but has a winning matchup into gliscor. Defogs, is immune to toxic, immune to earthquake OR screws up poison heal with neutralizing gas. Good defensive mon against rillaboom, samurott, zamazenta and several other physical attackers too so it's hardly a niche pick
I wanna talk a bit about Gholdengo and the hazard problem, not in direct response to anything, mostly just as a ramble. I feel a lot of players miss the forest for the trees when speaking about Gholdengo's impact on the hazard metagame.
The basics
To start with, let's get the obvious out of the way. With Good as Gold + Ghost typing, Gholdengo is the best removal blocker ever, no questions asked. It helps that it has great typing, very useable bulk and of course Recover. Being able to completely wall the main otherwise-Defogger Corviknight is obviously huge; it makes Defog Corv a liability in many matchups or, at the very least, hugely inconsistent.
Why Good as Gold isn't really a problem for the hazard meta
But the thing is, it's really just Defog Corv. If you look at everything else that learns Defog and would be/is viable in OU assuming Gholdengo was banned - and I will be using a generous definition of viable for this - you've got Mandibuzz, Talonflame maybe?, Galarian Weezing. The former is already decent on certain teams, particularly that popular Stresh squad, but it doesn't Defog and honestly wouldn't be great even if it could - it needs that IDef + Foul Play combo to be an effective physical check on that team. The latter two are just straight up bad, but they already beat Gholdengo anyway; Talonflame with STAB Fire moves and Galarian Weezing just ignoring Good as Gold altogether. The reality of the Defog situation is just that distribution is incredibly low and is limited to Pokemon that are not good in OU other than Corviknight.
Rapid Spin isn't much better. Pretty much everything that learns it already has a strong Gholdengo matchup save for things that would just not be remotely useable regardless like Forretress. People often tout that Great Tusk is the only removal that gets used because it's the only remover that threatens Gholdengo adequately, but that's simply not true; Iron Treads, Quaquaval, Cyclizar, and even Brambleghast can appropriately threaten a Gholdengo. The issue isn't that those guys are bad hazard removers, it's just that they're bad Pokemon.
If you contrast this to the options available for actually laying hazards, that's when the problem becomes pretty clear. Between immortal Ground-type setters in Gliscor and Ting-Lu, the offensively inclined Glimmora, Sandy Shocks and Hisuian Samurott, the classic "I can spike on a switch"-ers in Greninja, Meowscarada and Ogerpon, and backup plans should everything get banned in Garchomp, Clodsire, Gastrodon- those are all ok-to-great Pokemon that easily lay Spikes, and multiple layers at that. You're really not left wanting for rockers either, considering Clefable, Great Tusk, Empoleon, Ting-Lu again, Garganacl, Heatran etc. can all do that just fine. And of course, we finally have a consistent Sticky Web setter with Ribombee too.
The bottom line
If you ban Gholdengo, the hazard meta realistically will not change much. Corviknight is a good Pokemon, but it's a highly abusable one and not something that will ever peak super high in usage. There are too many strong hazard options for it to truly keep up, and there's not much else in the dex to handle the hazard issue at all. Spinning in theory becomes slightly easier, but the Ghosts this gen are potent enough that if your opponent doesn't want you to spin, you won't be spinning - see Dragapult, Ceruledge, Skeledirge, Sinistcha, and niche options like Gengar, Basculegion, and just Tera Ghost with the Spikers themselves - esp Ting-Lu.
I do not believe there is much to be done here without extreme measures that would probably not be allowed under tiering policy (e.g. banning Spikes). In DLC2, I believe options to improve the hazard metagame should be explored, especially if we don't get extra Defog/Rapid Spin options. Right now it does not feel like a problem that can be solved within an acceptable timeframe, though I do think banning Gliscor would be a step in the right direction for alleviating at least a little bit of pressure. Until then, I think we kind of have to accept the Boots spam stuff - not because banning Gholdengo would be a "mistake" or whatever, just because I don't think it realistically fixes the problem at all.
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