Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Enjoyment: 3
Balanced: 3
Tiering: 1 (i'm against quickbans by principle)
Gliscor: 5 (Cheapest mon ever since celesteela)
Manaphy: 1 (Manaphy is cheese)
Gholdengo: 5 (GTFO silver surfer)
Waterpon: 5 (Waterpon is stupid even without tera. Excellent coverage without being subject to 4MSS)
Sneasler: 1 (sleep hax 16% lol stop crying. Walled by gliscor and dengo. Let's see once both suckers got the hammer)
Kingambit: 2 (It's fine)
Tera Blast: 4 (Nice question. This will kill offensive teras like regieleki, or stupid shit like tera fairy kingambit)
 
Enjoyment 2
Balanced 2


This meta is still garbage. Banning Moon made it even worse IMO. Now we have one less check to Gambit and Ogerpon-W.

Gliscor: 3 this mon is probably broken but I use weather teams so he’s mostly just a waste of time stalling pointless turns:

Gholdengo: 2 String cheese man is not broken.

Gambit: 5 I am so fucking sick of this thing. This tier is not serious rn.

Manaphy: 3 Manaphy is just not very good. The real issue here is Stored Power as a move is broken and needs the Baton Pass treatment.

Waterpon: 5 how this mon exists but Moon is gone is beyond me. This is one dumb broken piece of crap.

Sneasler: 2 this mon sucks. Dire Claw is a dumb move (reason it gets a 2) but the mon overall is not good.

Tera Blast: 5 Listen, anything associated with Tera needs to go and never come back. The mechanic has poisoned competitive mons. It has invalidated the typing matrix upon which this game was created. Mons will not be serious again until Tera is dealt with.

Other issues: Stored power can kick rocks.

and BAN TERA.
 
Gliscor: 5
>70 turn stall in Balance v Balance is not fun to play against
>Walls damn near everything in the game that isn't Manaphy or Waterpon
Gholdengo: 5
>Singlehandedly deleted every form of hazard removal by simply existing (court change doesn't count because if doesn't remove anything)
Kingambit: 3
>Not much of a problem without tera
Manaphy: 2
>Requires setup to be any type of good and gets eaten by Waterpon
Waterpon: 4
>Offensive moveset is pretty strong and has become more of a problem with the banning of Roaring Moon
Sneasler: 2
>Feels like playing slots except you get statused randomly but otherwise it's kind of a shitmon
Tera Blast: 2
>Only an issue with something like TFairy Gambit and Regieleki
 
Okay, I kinda forgot my responses, so this is me trying to remember.

Quickbans: 8/10. I think the council can be a little more proactive on votes for Quick Bans, but they don't need to vote on everything all the time every week or anything like that. I love the transparency that we are getting this generation. I think the council should feel confident in taking some action on clearly problematic things. (Blood Moon was a great win for the community with it's whopping ban %, but I'm confident the Council would have reached the same consensus.) It's important to balance the combination of Council Quick Bans with Community Suspect Tests, so that this doesn't feel like "oh well my say as a player doesn't matter" and I think the past few months have been good at showing the Council take a step back to allow the community's collective voice(s) to be heard.

:Gliscor: - 4/5 Look, I get it. Should I have voted 5/5? Probably, but I said 4/5 for this. I don't really have a justifiable reason, just wanted to save the only 5/5 for :Gholdengo: since I hate the gold thing more.

:Manaphy: :Ogerpon-Wellspring: :Sneasler: - 3/5 They are probably problematic, but we have bigger proverbial fish to fry (none of which are fish). I also might've only said 2 on :Sneasler: but I don't really remember or care about any of these while the rest of our Steel Overlords rule the tier.

:Gholdengo: - 5/5 it's simple: I hate this thing. I don't think I need to further justify the walls of text I wrote about it previously.
:Kingambit: - 4/5 I hate this, too, but not as much as :Gholdengo: However, I don't think :Kingambit: is worth suspecting a second time, because that would feel like time wasted (just as in Gen 8 with the multiple re-suspects post-DLC for Cinderace iirc). I think this one would have to be a council QB, or we're stuck with it until DLC2.

I think the Council has done a great job this generation, and I love having this survey so quickly after the results of :Roaring Moon:

Other thoughts: yeah, not worth getting into further discourse in the forums lol

EDIT: Right, Tera Blast - 2/5 It'll probably be broken from something dumb in DLC-2, but it's basically just Gen-9 Hidden Power (which is a move I've always hated, but was fundamental to years of competitive play as coverage). I don't think it's the problem or the solution to any problem right now. The problem with tera isn't tera blast coverage, it's (six and a half pages of forum debate later)
 
Enjoyment: 6
Should give 4 or 5 though. The current ou is just so crazy. Booster energy Iron Valian, Iron Moth, Walking Wake. Water Ogerpon. Kingambit. And all other mosters running around, making the current UU like post gen OU. Couldnt imagine how power creep do all this.
Balance: 4
As to be said. The booster energy abusers and other crazy things is not balanced.

Glicor: 5
Why wouldnt you ban this?

Manaphy: 5
Maybe im being too much, but I generally hate this.

Gholdengo: 5
It always feels like post gen landorus-t to me. It's one central base of the environment. Definitely ban worthy.

Ogerpon-Wellsrping: 5
It's overpowered. Why wouldnt you ban this?

Sneasler: 2
It's basically post gen hawlucha, but gets dire claw and generally better.

Kingambit: 5
I'm not here to play the rock-paper-scisor guessing game. And that is what kingamit make me to do every game it showed up.

Tera/Tera Blast:1
I actually like tera. It explores a whole dimension of fun in pokemon battle. More competitive players may hate it, because it is just too easy to make surprsie out of an ordinary team.
 
My answers and discussion on the format at hand:
How enjoyable is the format: 2/10.
I really dislike the format. It's very polarised between the hard aggressive teams and the stallier teams. Most that reside in the middle get roughed up by the extremes.

How competitive is the format: 2/10.
Little in the format that's competitive. Most games with Kingambit usually end in a reverse sweep, hazard control is relatively low thanks to the threat of Ghold, the distribution of knock off makes boots strats harder in a low hazard control meta, valiant revenge kills most things, and acts as a near perfect duo with Kingambit. Also, I find there is massive variance on the ladder. There are so many things to check, you easily lose games to stuff you couldn't fit an answer, or an answer that has the tech to beat your answer. Yeah, needs a few bans.

Quickbans: 7/10.
I think the council has been far too conservative this time with QBs. BM ursa was showing signs of being way too much early on, yet it had a suspect, and one of the fastest suspects in recent memory.

Gliscor: 1/5.
I really don't see the issue. Spikes are big, but that's down to other factors. It is a mon that learns toxic, but that's another problem reduced availability. Yeah, that one gliscor checkmate existed, but I feel its to do with other factors.

Manaphy: 3/5.
Not over the top, but needs an eye on it. Its very potent, but usually has flaws with longevity if the lefties are removed. I don't think its the big one to look at currently, but slap it on the radar.

Gholdengo: 5/5!!!
Needs going asap. If Spinning was an option vs it, then it would be fine. However, blocking Defog, Rapid Spin and Mortal Spin leaves the hazard meta in a choke hold. I decided to have a look at the NDOU suspect and see the reasoning there. I mean, if anything, more hazard control options in NDOU should mean that Gholdengo shouldn't be an issue, right? On the contrary, there is a Spike problem there, and having similar Gholdengo based hazard issues. And, if NDOU, a tier with far more options for the hazard meta, is struggling, then I really don't see how the limited options of SV OU is doing anything to help. The mon's ability to spinblock is straight crazy, and its influence on the meta is a problem. QB, and let the remainder of the format be a litmus test for future Ghold action in DLC2.

Waterpon: 5/5.
A fairly potent SD setter, Waterpon is very lacking in switch ins. Trailblaze sets are brutal to offensive teams, while encore sets are rough for defensive teams to handle. Given it has a very potent STAB, and sustain in Horn Leech, its quite over the top. Very few true counters, and most rely on Tera, usually the Dragon type, to check it. It also compresses the FWG type core into only 2 mons, so add on your fire of choice (Cinderace and Ceruledge seem popular) and its quite potent. When the likes of Kingambit are gone, it's a tough cookie to revenge kill, or even handle defensively. I think it needs a QB, but maybe wants suspecting

Sneasler: 1/5.
What's all the fuss with Sneasler. Tbh, I am using a more stallier/defensive team, and have extreme phys walls to keep it in check. Corv, Glisc and Dozo kinda keep it in check. Especially Glisc, absorbing the status hits from Dire Claw. Dire Claw is the only bit I see that is brutal, but I think it needs the format to calm down a bit before it truly shines. However, the amount of defensive options into it seem fine imo. Opinions can change, so I'll need to see it in action

Kingmabit: 5/5!!!.
It was a mistake letting this remain unbanned. It's so broken, it should have been a QB. It's the ultimate revenge killer, and is the reason for so much Encore and Sub strats. This thing currently is what I find makes the meta a hellscape. You can be winning, having made some amazing predictions, then SO 5 sucker punches all over you, and all the hard work is nothing. It's absolutely broken, and no amount of Tera tiering is going to make it any less potent. It should have gone in the last test, and should have been tested over Roaring Moon first. Needs to go, ASAP.

Tera Blast: 3/5
I'm not sure where to stand on this. 3/5 is enough that, its good that it provides some plays vs mons, and I see it in the same vein as Hidden Power. On the flipside, I think a ban on it could ease up some of the Tera issues, but not all. Plus, most mons aren't using tera blast, solely cause it forces them to use Tera, or be with a sub-par move slot. However, I have seen mons that use tera blast to beat certain things. Saw a tera ice

Other things to look at:
  • Booster Energy (I feel its a little too much for some mons. Especially the speed boost, which is such a critical stat that gets boosted. Strong for both Valiant and Roaring Moon)
  • Iron Valiant (Stupid revenge killer, and has so many sets, its hard to get a specific mon to deal with it. Might be worse after Gambit and Ghold bans, but yeah).
  • Rillaboom (Currently, Grassy Surge, with very little terrain counterplay. You have to allow it its terrain. Plus, Tera banded wood hammer in terrain is just ridiculous).

Yeah, overall, I'm not a fan of the meta. There's too much stranglehold on the meta. And that's coming from someone who's a fan of VGC, where everything is fair game, but is currently a better meta.
 
I honestly think Weavile deserves to be in OU at this point, it was absolutely pivotal in a team I used to get to 1800s(peaked 178 on ladder) and it functioned incredibly well. Struggles most against Zam, BE Moth, and Dozo, but there are some really interesting interactions I've noticed that bode well for it in this metagame!
First, Ribombee:
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ribombee: 290-350 (111.1 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ribombee: 232-280 (88.8 - 107.2%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
With Loaded Dice, which you should absolutely give a try on Weavy, you are getting semi-consistent shutdowns on a very common setup mon.

Chunk the everloving hell out of Corv
+2 252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 275-330 (68.9 - 82.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 220-264 (55.1 - 66.1%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 370-440 (92.7 - 110.2%) -- approx. 62.5% chance to OHKO
You literally have a favorable chance to one shot Corv with Tera + SD which is WILD

Takes the Feared Gambit Punch
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 138-162 (49.1 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
And kills back of course
+2 252 Atk Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 700-828 (205.2 - 242.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Does rather well against offensive Gholdengo
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 314-372 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
But chunks defensive variants rather well too
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 224-266 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Got Iron Valiant Low? Weavy for the job!
252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 67-81 (23.1 - 28%) -- 82.1% chance to 4HKO
Think Iron Valiant might switch in predicting a knock off?
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 168-204 (58.1 - 70.5%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 210-255 (72.6 - 88.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
You have a solid shot at killing Valiant if you bait it into switching in

You might not consistently be killing Manaphy, but you can sure as hell get it close
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Remember, she has to set up too!

There's a lot more I could pull out in regards to this mon and the fun I've had with it, but at the end of the day all I have to say is this: Give it a try, Weavile will pleasantly surprise you!
 
as a curious outsider im just wondering what exactly a gholdengo ban is supposed to do as far as the hazards meta goes aside from making corviknight somewhat better. fact of the matter is that when we look at the removal options in lower tiers, theyre either never gonna be good enough to see any significant usage in ou regardless and/or theyre not actually any good at removal, bar maybe mandibuzz. meanwhile the most common remover in the tier already hits gholdengo super effectively. i suppose that to me it just seems really obvious that it's the combination of very few ou-worthy mons having removal options and spikers being ridiculously good, i mean, the ease with which gliscor/ting lu/samurott barf spikes puts ferrothorn to shame. but perhaps im missing something here, so id love to be enlightened.
Time for my regularly scheduled "Just Corviknight" response post.

Even if I grant that Corviknight is the only "direct" beneficiary of a Gholdengo ban on Hazard Removal (Mandibuzz has been cited though), the fact that Corviknight is still comfortably OU despite one of its primary utility moves being literally useless (despite theoretically being at more of a premium with the move culling) says that this would be massive because it's adding options to a common OU Pokemon, not simply trying to elevate an RU/UU Pokemon to deal with the Hazard situation. We know from experience that a single Pokemon can have massive presence or influence on the game (the most extreme part of the scale is GSC Snorlax or our infamous 50%+ Usage glue Pokemon, or many suspect subjects for the unhealthy side of this influence), so I don't want to undersell the gains from one Pokemon gaining in options (heck look how many Pokemon got significantly better with 1 move from a mid-Gen tutor update).

One of the reasons Tusk is the most common Hazard Removal in OU is because what other option do we HAVE in a Gholdengo meta? The options are narrow and a lot of the few we have on paper are kept down by Gholdengo: Corviknight is good/decent in OU, but it is NOT hazard removal while Good as Gold exists. This also goes the other way: Great Tusk and Cinderace are the only viable hazard removal we have, making them RIDICULOUSLY easy to prepare for between how overburdened the former is as a Glue (if that given Gliscor constricts a moveslot) and their highly telegraphed roles on a team that values keeping their hazards up as much as the other team needs them gone. Gliscor exacerbated things because it compresses the Spiker role into the same slot as the "kill Tusk/Ace" slot, but this would have been a 3 mon core before DLC that one of the Spikers could still "soft" perform in the role (like Hamurott being the Spiker and having the option to soft-check/scare Tusk with Hydro Pump or just predicted switch-in to a Water STAB in general). Compounding this is the fact that Tusk's match-up into Gholdengo is like a 60-40 skew in that Tusk could be called a "check" at best if you don't consider the Hazard roles and just focus on him killing Ghold before the reverse (the SpD is a major weak spot there so Tusk needs the initiative), nevermind that a turn or two to kill Ghold remains turns where Hazards stay up, when Hazard removal is already by nature a momentum-sinking action, even on pivots like past-Gen Landorus or U-Turn Corv.

The big issue Gholdengo creates that I think makes it unhealthy is that in a meta where Setting is already more common than Removing, he also makes it exponentially harder to remove than set hazards (one could argue the inverse being the nature/problem of Gens 7 and 8, where hazards had a lot of users but required pressure to keep down against the large number of Defoggers).
 
rough takes on stuff

-booster energy barely breaks any pokemon that isn't Valiant. Valiant should be banned anyway.
-I need kingambit gone until Tera is dealt with. HE should NOT be turning Great Tusk into a subway footlong sandwich with how he wraps him up.
-i don't like gholdengo he should gholdenGO
-gliscor must be taken out back and shot
-actually keep Gambit and free Volc that'd be funny
-manaphy is healthy and balanced (abuses double dance manaphy)
 
Enjoyment: 7
Balance: 5
Tiering philosophy: 4, I think it's fine as is, the only situation in which I think tiering was too aggressive was Volcarona but idc enough to hold an at-length conversation about it, I get why it happened, I disagree

:gliscor: 4 - suspect worthy, but I think is more of a problem when facilitated by Gholdengo - the mon is ridiculous on its own however. I think tiering action should go in the order of Gholdengo > Gliscor

:manaphy: 3 - not the priority right now, while quite annoying, there's more to focus on that needs tiering action

:gholdengo: 5 - incredibly restricting mon, central part of the hazard stacking problem that's ongoing, needs to be gone

:ogerpon-wellspring: 2 - she's fine, overall very good mon would find it hard to call her broken

:sneasler: 3 - cheesy mon, is probably out of place in the meta but again, more problems are around

:kingambit: 5 - lol

Tera Blast: 4 - 120BP no drawback move isn't balanced, what a surprise.

I just would like to pivot back to the point of people talking about Gen 8 being boring which, while it was a little slow, I think is a testament to it being one of the most balanced generations we've ever had.

I also wanna talk about what whether anyone sees a future in which we sort of copy what Game Freak have done with Ogerpon in that it always Teras into a specific type. Is there any thoughts for whether that can work for all mons? The mon will always Tera into its secondary type unless it is monotype.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tera Bug Lokix Leech Life vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 150-178 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
Gliscor: 5
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 458-542 (145.3 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gholdengo: 1
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix Axe Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 620-732 (181.8 - 214.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gambit: 1
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 272-322 (79.7 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Bug Lokix: 291-343 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Manaphy: 5
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Bug Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 316-372 (104.9 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Wogerpon: 1
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tera Bug Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 204-242 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sneasler: like, 24
Tera Blast:
Screenshot 2023-10-30 at 11.37.44 AM.png

Why would you ever use that move wtf????
-2/5
Other: Ban Iron Valiant
 

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658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Aggressive tiering action is needed to handle the hazard situation. There is no point in having 4 back-to-back suspects on Gholdengo, Gliscor, Samurott-H, and Ting-Lu, which are all bound to be problematic with our removal distribution options being extremely limited.
Honestly just removing Ghold/Gliscor would solve our hazard issue since Mandi and Corv match up well with most of our current spike setters. Also none of the other spike setters have the same excellent survivability as Gliscor does so Tusk can reasonably live long enough to keep hazards off the field.
 
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Gliscor can definitely be annoying and unfun but I really think it would be a poor tiering choice to target it first. If hazards are the biggest issue, while Gliscor is the best spiker, it's also a hazard resistant mon that you don't have to run boots on, and can force progress with sd and knock. I think a lot of the gliscor vs gliscor 100 turn mirrors happen a lot more due to poor building than stalling in front of each other actually being the most effective strategy. Targeting gholdengo first allows for the proliferation of corviknight, who beats every gliscor set that exists in the current meta, and clefable. Both can be effective stops gliscor, and maintains the benefits gliscor adds to the meta without it being overly centralizing. While Gholdengo isn't purely negative in the meta (stall/fat breaking, checking ID zama), going after Gliscor first over it just turns the clock back to a meta where hazards were already a problem, now with just more added issues due to DLC (sticky web proliferation, more viable spikers, way more knock off). I could be sold on the idea that Gliscor could be broken with or without Gholdengo, but I think it would poor tiering order of operations to go after it first.
 
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Aggressive tiering action is needed to handle the hazard situation. There is no point in having 4 back-to-back suspects on Gholdengo, Gliscor, Samurott-H, and Ting-Lu, which are all bound to be problematic with our removal distribution options being extremely limited.
I wouldn't be surprised if hazards are still an issue even after Gholdengo/Gliscor are gone, but I feel like it's important to at least see how the meta develops after those two are removed rather than jumping headfirst into removing two setters which may be fine once Gholdengo isn't around to keep hazards up infinitely. Just seems really really aggressive to assume Samurott-H/Ting-Lu will need to go when banning Gliscor & Gholdengo would result in a pretty drastic meta shakeup already.
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
big wall of text incoming!

:gholdengo: - 5/5. the return of ribombee and especially gliscor have skyrocketed its viability, especially considering how reliable they are at laying down their hazards and their ability to beat/cripple common means of hazard removal used against gholdengo. with these two around its pretty much impossible to remove hazards with this piece of shit around if it wasnt already hard enough, given gholdengo is incredibly hard to switch into and deceptively hard to wear down. the recent bans have also have nothing but positive for it as well, with ogerpon-hearthflame, bloodmoon ursaluna and roaring moon all having massively threatened it in the past but are now no more. even with RM around i still found gholdengo to be immensely constraining and hard to deal with but having it banned certainly does not help anti-ban arguments whatsoever. ideally it gets banned ASAP until the indigo disk redistributes defog to much more reliable pokemon like moltres and landorus-T. but one can only hope and for now? get it outta here.

(yes i am aware i look ridiculous talking about gholdengo being broken w/ a corviknight-themed username & profile shhhh dont mention it)

:gliscor: - 5/5. extremely obnoxious, extremely hard to break, impossible to switch into, is always forcing progress. it only exacerbates the hazard issue this generation, since its always laying down spikes because it lives forever and can cripple everything that dares switch in. maushold is too niche and gets obliterated regardless of what its switching into, cinderace and great tusk do not have the longevity to keep dealing with its hazards and corviknight is good into gliscor but not good as a defogger. this is all only taking the standard spikes set into account too, SD can completely turn the tables on most switch-ins to the more common spikes variant. genuinely curious, what reason is there to not ban this thing?

:kingambit: - 4/5. kingambit still does kingambit things and can still run teams over if given the right opportunity. tera flying uses gliscor as setup fodder whereas ive been seeing (and using) tera fire since it completely turns the tables on cinderace, iron moth and heatran, and it still can run tera ghost, fairy, dark, etc. to give itself more leeway for its sweep (the latter also jacks up its dark STAB to crazy heights). its still problematic and i find that a retest is not out the realm of possibility. i used to think its presence was essentially "broken checks broken" but considering some of the broken pokemon its supposed check are even more banworthy than it (such as gholdengo) i dont see any issue in getting it out of here, especially if gholdengo does end up getting banned.

:manaphy: - 3/5. can snowball out of control but i find that it can be stopped from getting going quite reliably if you act fast. its also quite susceptible to moves such as encore used for the likes of kingambit, and the prominence of ogerpon-wellspring in the meta seriously hurts it and forces it to burn tera or die. it could be looked at in the future since i dont find action on manaphy to be urgent at this time.

:ogerpon_wellspring: - 3/5. defensively it is hard, and i mean hard to deal with if its positioned itself well. with that being said i still find that bulkier teams have adapted to its presence quite nicely with the increased usage of amoonguss, usage of tera grass/dragon on defensive walls such as dondozo and corviknight, faster threats like tornadus-T making apperances on stall teams as an emergency check to ogerpon-wellspring. and offensively its not very hard to just outspeed and run it over with the myriad of faster threats, or they could opt to pick it off with priority. the latter has also started to see further increase in usage given the resurgence of rillaboom and players starting to catch onto weavile (who tbf already outspeeds and threatens ogerpon). i think it should be kept in mind going forward but for now i think the meta can at least handle it decently.

:sneasler: - 3/5. this one is weird since my opinion on it depends almost entirely on what the council does with gliscor and gholdengo. i would give this thing a 4/5 if gliscor and/or gholdengo get banned, 2/5 if not since i feel like dire claw can just fuck over defensive counterplay from stall/balance/BO teams not running gliscor or gholdengo...but the thing is is that they are usually wanting to run gliscor or gholdengo (tho gholdengo isnt very common on stall). but the OTHER thing is that these two should not be here, at least imo. so if the council decides to act on them and get either or both banned then a sneasler suspect should probably happen sometime afterward. if not then it can stay, just something to keep in mind for the future.

tera/TB - 1/5. i find that the only problematic abusers of tera left are kingambit and perhaps manaphy. most other pokemon who hard abused this mechanic have already been banned, and the pool of tera abusers who typically ran tera blast are substantially lower. though i believe we banned all the major abusers of it (espathra, volcarona, regieleki) too, in which case i see no point in going after TB. tera itself could see a suspect but i think that should be put on hold until DLC2 reveals what exactly the new tera type is supposed to do, and if that is what pushes it over the edge.
 
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Fun level - 5/10! Gliscor and Ghold are the obstacles here but I've picked up a new playstyle and am really enjoying it, and feel confident about how I am improving at the game! Losing matchups at preview also impedes the fun level - strain in the builder from the threats below & Tera is the culprit here imo.

balance level - 3/10. Tier pretty much revolves entirely around the Pokémon on this survey

Quickban Philosophy - 7/10. My feeling is, trust your judgment. I think it's totally ok for the council to continue quickbanning, and if the council is confident a Pokémon deserves a quickban it probably does, eg Volcarona, or Gliscor. Poor players might get salty but they get salty about bans either way. I don't think a massive purge is really necessary though so I didn't vote higher, cannot get behind the "we should quickban everything rated A or above" gang, nor the ones advocating for "Kokoloko tiering" after hearing about it for the first time a month ago

:Gliscor: 5/5. Fuck this thing, please quickban this, I have spoken at length about how it's definitely a problem with or without Gholdengo and will not spend time and space in this post repeating myself

:Gholdengo: 4/5. My issues with Gholdengo are pretty unrelated to how it interacts with hazards as Cinderace exists, Tusk is a good but not infallible option, Maushold is viable, Gliscor doesn't even need a Ghold, sure corviknight is bad but it's not as though defog is impossible, Talonflame and Gweez are solid options that threaten Ghold or can defog in its face. I really can't get behind the idea of "I should be able to click defog with zero thought and get rid of all hazards," and I don't think that not being the case is indicative of an issue. However many players (mostly but not entirely also unqualified players) take issue with (but somewhat overstate) how this Pokémon interacts with hazard removal and "5" on the survey is "tiering action needed" not "ban needed" and I voted for 4 because I believe a two week suspect is a good avenue to provide players the time and space to analyze how this Pokémon interacts with the metagame and whether it is truly an issue. I also really do hate matching up into it, not for hazard reasons, but because of Trick, Nasty Plot, or Psyshock sets, matching into Ghold is basically a game of "what fucked up thing is it going to do to me" that you have to play so quickly that trying to scout it out essentially always benefits the Gholdengo player. If you assume it's trick and it's not (they sometimes run lefties or boots not just balloon!) then you need to deal with it having a nasty plot up or being paralyzed with thunder wave, if you incorrectly guess it's not trick then you've lost your Blissey and probably the game too. Stall's best counterplay for Trick is "choose who gets the scarf and hope they get knocked later" which is very difficult to play around, especially with the urgency Gholdengo inspires. I also am not a fan of how psyshock sets force Tera dark and shadow ball on Blissey when seismic toss allows her to make much more progress and match up better into moth, glimmora, and others, and Tera water matches up much better into wake. Not being able to be worn down with toxic is not great either, this Pokémon is more than anything just a huge threat

:Manaphy: 3/5. Tail Glow is literally fine, easy to speed check, wear down, unaware, haze, etc. Take heart is more annoying because then you can't wear it down with toxic and it's difficult for most things to get a knock on it. Not a priority at this time imo but a suspect is worth considering

:Kingambit: 2/5. Really can't see this Pokémon as a priority right now, its reverse sweeping capabilities are worse than ever rn and most players are prepared to play around its Tera. Last man standing reverse sweeps are stupid when they happen, I considered voting 3, but they don't seem to happen much these days. The idea of a second Kingambit suspect so soon is pretty absurd and it definitely doesn't warrant a quickban either, so 2 it is. By the way I find it hilarious that Smogon users use the term "failed suspect" to describe any suspect they didn't agree with the result of

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: 4/5. This thing loved the roaring moon ban and can present many "lose at team preview" situations for stall, basically any time it's paired with another "you have to Tera to win" threat (mostly the Pokémon listed above or Rilladouche) stall cannot win because you have to Tera Dozo to get through this thing and you can't Tera Blissey or Torn-T if you Tera this. You also Have to essentially trade Dozo for this because of knock, and running Tera grass or dragon means you lose to Tera dark Kingambit without Talonflame. Tera fighting can win but much less reliably since the stabs 3HKO. Very limiting Pokémon with a small pool of counterplay.

:Sneasler: 3/5. Can't say I'm a fan! Unburden sets are the most problematic, balloon puts the opponent into a position of "I can't hit it or it gets unburden, I can't switch into an ohko because it gets a swords dance, and if it Teras I lose either way." Grassy seed spares the opponent this dillema but turns Tera sneasler into the absurd threat it already is, but somehow also bulky? Pivot sets seem a little worse but I will take any opportunity to remove a Switcheroo user from the game. Only voted 3 as I believe Ghold Gliscor and Waterpon are much more pressing. By the way dire claw is a shit move, has nothing to do with what's wrong with sneasler

Tera Blast: 4/5. I'll be honest, I have yet to see Tera blast on ladder since the dlc dropped. I hated what this move brought to HOME as well as how it allows Pokémon to choose and kill its own counterplay. We shouldn't have a move that gives any Pokémon a third 80 BP stab of its choice, activated by the "free setup turn" button. I don't ever see it though nowadays - does anyone have high level replays of it being stupid?

i also wrote in Ting-lu and Samurott, they are problematic hazard setters too. The former is completely eclipsed by Gliscor but its bulk is pretty ridiculous, this thing stands toe to toe with Ubers and gets its spikes up. Ceaseless Edge is ridiculously strong too, and Samurott's toolkit is incredible between taunt encore SD flip turn knock sucker punch etc. Once these three are gone though I cannot imagine spikes being remotely problematic, otherwise we are getting into YouTube comment tier "hazards are broken because they're threatening and important." I cannot envision a world in which Clodsire or Meowscarada using spikes is a problem requiring tiering action even with Ghold. This is my issue with "if we ban 1-3 broken setters then people will just use other spike setters" or "the quantity of spike setters is the problem, ban spikes," I would actually say the quality of spike setters is the problem, not quantity (and also HDB literally exist and are great items, and are balanced out by knock)

I also wrote in Rillaboom, way too strong under terrain, requires stall to run Talonflame because torn is a fake ass check that takes 90 from wood hammer, and requires trading for a knock off at that, and enables cheese such as grassy seed sneasler and hatterene. Gterrain teams are a blight on this meta.
 
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My opinions on the tiering survey, which im not sure is valid due to my below average GXE

fun level 2.5/5 sticky web makes things so boring, apart from that opposing gliscor aren’t broken, just reptitive

balance level 2/5 yeah this meta is chaotic as hell, and sticky web doesn’t help that one bit

quick bans 2/5 sometimes they are important, but at rare times its overkill, its mainly 2/5 because of all the quickbans, im glad the council gives the community a voice in these things
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2- would probably be 3 if it weren’t such a crucial part of my team, yall please go light on him

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3 - sometimes its a pain in the ass to deal with, other times its a breeze

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5 - i used to be ok with it, but now its ruining ou, it and ribombee make sticky web near impossible to get off the field and ribombee ain’t exactly uber material, ban this to ubers, and don‘t let it out until the metagame shifts to a point where webs aren’t protected from most hazard removal apart from cinderaces court change and freaking mausholds tidy up (what about furret guys)

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5 - this thing to more defensive teams is like what gholdengo and ribombee are to more offensive teams, you basically can’t wall it, which is fine for pokemon like tapu lele, crawdaunt and other wallbreakers because they don’t have 110 base speed and ogerpon gets trailblaze, if it switches into a slow mon, it will most likely get a ko, dealing with it defensively is straight off the table, only faster mons can counter it, in my opinion its very restricting

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1- some people may say its broken, but i could not care less, when ever i face grassy terrain teams, i always stop the sneasler sweep idk why , it should be a beast on paper but in practice, its not all that to me

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4- sometimes its a pushover, other times it rips your team apart, this is because of sucker punch mindgames, attack when it cleaves, you win, use a status move when it cleaves, you die, attack when it sucker punches, you also die, after a swords dance, beating it is basically a coin flip sometimes, other times your great tusk or iron valiant completely fold it, most mons like it are 3 to me, but its 4 because what happen when it wins the coin flip

tera blast is actually pretty healthy for lower tiers, and its not used by most broken tera pokemon in ou, apart from espathra, so i not only its fine, but am completely against any tiering action against it, tera is a 2/5 for me but tera blast is a flat out zero, understand where anti tera blasters are coming from but i disagree with them alot

booster energy isn’t here but i just think its ok, not too strong and not too weak
 
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