Considering what I have heard and read about past metagames, it sounds and looks way more like the Gens actually being explored and developed much more with the benefit of a much smarter and experienced playerbase and trying to shove most of those changes onto solely using Spikes better feels disengenuous at best. Would probably help if you gave examples of what you're talking about and don't just go "trust me, Spikes is evil and bad everywhere". Especially if you're gonna reference Gen 5 since thats the gen that feels the most liberal with just throwing out much bigger bans in spirit like all of sleep or Gems as a whole, so if Spikes actually was fucking up the tier as much as you claim, I feel like I would be able to find evidence of that much easier since I can easily find stuff about every other thing I can think of
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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How is Ogerpon anywhere close to the others?
a day ago if you told me the moon was banned, i would be devasted but now? Another big threat to my team cleared
zamzenta isn’t that bad either, especially compared to KINGAMBIT
I do think one or both of Gliscor and Gholdengo has to go. However, I think the real problem this generation is the distribution of hazards vs the distribution of defog being incredibly skewed to the former, and to some extent that’s not something we can fix. All we can do is remove the most powerful setters and removal deterrents and hope it works out for the best unless Game Freak throws us a bone in DLC2 and gives us a Defog TM.
Speaking of Hazards stack team aside from Gliscor and Gholdengo who are the usual team mates? Also how it deals with HO and stall teams? I have a grasp on how it works but I want to know more about it.
Clefable to set up your Rocks and provide utitlity via a mix of sticky barbs, knock off, trick or encore. A ghost switch in. A moth / fairy switch in (if thats not already covered by your ghost switch in). Pult is pretty common (usually wisp set) as it provides speed control, makes great use of hazards, can check Waterpon and helps in those late game scenarios vs gambit. Then you just slap boots on everything but Clef and Gliscor and get to stacking.
Dengo isnt actually a necessary element of these teams since most people have given up trying to defog anyways and u can just wear their tusk down over time (dengo doesnt love switching into tusk anyway). Youre often playing the long game with these teams but it depends on how offensive youre building them.
You can watch this SCL game to get a feeling for team structures and general gameplay. Personally I didn't love the team carkoala brought to the table here cause it doesn't commit to the gameplan of just getting hazards stacked on both sides. Heatran bears a huge burden in countering a lot of special attackers while also being very prone to being worn down if hazards are up especially when having to switch into Ghosts so while Rilla helps with that you are still required to spin. But offensive booster energy tusk isnt gonna spin more than once per game and your team isnt fast enough for that to be sufficient since the game slows down whenever gliscor or clefable enter the field and the opponents Gliscor gets a layer of spike up whenever u send the former out. I feel like if you run a structure like that you at the very least need ice fang on your gliscor or at least uturn and something that can immediately threathen Gliscor.
Maybe I'm just trying to force carkoalas team in a category it doesnt want to be in in the first place but I figured by illustrating my thoughts on how to approach a game on an example you'll maybe getter a better feel how to build a hazard stack team.
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Anyone saying hazard stack wasn't overcentralizing before gliscor and therefore it's clearly gliscor that's the issue, not gholdengo, consider this:
Every time we had a drop coming up we basically said "well the meta sucks but x will change it" so we put up with hazard stack in hopes that better defoggers would be released. What's changed isn't gliscor, it's that we have finally lost hope/ realised there's no defoggers coming that can decently threaten ghold. So we've stopped making excuses for hazard stack, and by association blamed gliscor
Every time we had a drop coming up we basically said "well the meta sucks but x will change it" so we put up with hazard stack in hopes that better defoggers would be released. What's changed isn't gliscor, it's that we have finally lost hope/ realised there's no defoggers coming that can decently threaten ghold. So we've stopped making excuses for hazard stack, and by association blamed gliscor
This metagame is miserable to play, the hazard control in this metagame is shithole. The best teams this metagame is hyper offense and balance/stall/bulky offense team with 5/6 pokemon that have HDB.
Gliscor doesn't have a reliable counter or pokemon that stop Gliscor from set Spikes up because Knock Off can cause pokemon lose HDB and they take a lot of hazard damage. Toxic allows Gliscor beat supposed Gliscor checks / counters in a long term. Balance/BO teams need like 5/6 pokemon with HDB depend on teams so you don't rely on Great Tusk alive to remove hazards. Heavy offense is the playstyle that least bothered by hazard stacks because it punish Gliscor well and they are faster than Gliscor can set Spikes up.
Gliscor have ground immunity, electric immunity, knock off absorption, status immunity, physical wall, spikes, Toxic / U-turn / Knock Off and it just can't die in one slot. Gliscor is toxic effect on the metagame. carkoala vs Sylveon is so cute is the replay you want to see how Gliscor effect on the metagame. Both teams have Gliscor where they have set up 3 layers and can start to PP stall each other when neither player is using stall teams. Both teams that has Gliscor often leads to Gliscor stalemate because Gliscor is Gliscor's best counter OU can have unless Gliscor run SD Facade or Ice Fang. If the surveys are up, I would vote 5/5 on both Gliscor and Gholdengo because how toxic effects they have on OU metagame.
Gliscor set up Spikes as Corviknight come in. Gliscor switch out for Corviknight answer while Corviknight use Defog. Corviknight has to switch out after Gliscor switch out for Corviknight answer. Not only problems Corviknight have, Corviknight have a poor synergy with Gliscor, Zapdos and other pokemon. Corviknight completely folds to Gholdengo.
Gliscor doesn't have a reliable counter or pokemon that stop Gliscor from set Spikes up because Knock Off can cause pokemon lose HDB and they take a lot of hazard damage. Toxic allows Gliscor beat supposed Gliscor checks / counters in a long term. Balance/BO teams need like 5/6 pokemon with HDB depend on teams so you don't rely on Great Tusk alive to remove hazards. Heavy offense is the playstyle that least bothered by hazard stacks because it punish Gliscor well and they are faster than Gliscor can set Spikes up.
Gliscor have ground immunity, electric immunity, knock off absorption, status immunity, physical wall, spikes, Toxic / U-turn / Knock Off and it just can't die in one slot. Gliscor is toxic effect on the metagame. carkoala vs Sylveon is so cute is the replay you want to see how Gliscor effect on the metagame. Both teams have Gliscor where they have set up 3 layers and can start to PP stall each other when neither player is using stall teams. Both teams that has Gliscor often leads to Gliscor stalemate because Gliscor is Gliscor's best counter OU can have unless Gliscor run SD Facade or Ice Fang. If the surveys are up, I would vote 5/5 on both Gliscor and Gholdengo because how toxic effects they have on OU metagame.
concept: alotales + 5 tera ice mons with tera blast so you can deal with gliscor at any point and never have to give it a free turn unless it burns tera
Even better, use 6 Freeze Dry Mons in case Gliscor Tera Waters. One of the 6 Freeze Dry Mons has to be Glaceon, of course.
Well, considering that gliscor has very bad matchup against sub thundurus-t, that i find very very strong in sticky webs, and gliscor Never hit me as a superbe mon. It got spikes. It lost roost. natdex gliscor would Be the goat. Well It isn't. gliscor a Good mon, But these.immunities are also available on Other mons like thundurus-t, tox immunity via sub or Tera poison from any mon, knock absorbtion is a very optional use, only useful in Stall imo. And ok, it's a very Good mon but like hdb is not on "5/6mons" since like li, leftovers, rapid spin exist and is better on offensive mons. Stall is 5/6 hdb, but fgs not ho. Webs team don't run hdb, and most bo have a way to remove hazards.
Idk if it is the right place to discuss next bans that should take place after roaring moon ban but nonetheless I will share what I think is the correct order that should be followed for future actions:
--> Ubers
--> Ubers
--> Ubers
I)
Now there are countless things that could be said about this golden boi.
People really be using
, what can easily be assessed as a low tier UU mon, soley for gholdengo. Now when a mon this bad for OU standards* gets used so much to be A tier in viability rankings you know something is wrong. Gholdengo is a pokémon that considering stats, movepool and typing is already very good. I'd say that just with those qualities it meets OU standards. Make it rain is an extremely good signature move that further enhances its amazing 133 base special attack stat. You then have a ghost typing that is great both offensively and defensively. The speed while not great is super workable as with scarf you outspeed
and you also have the ability to trick it. Furthermore you have alot of great options like nasty plot, recover, thunderwave, focus miss for gambit etc etc.
In short:
is already great by itslef.
Now the ability is total bullshit. Here we really start to get down into a spiral of madness in my opinion. A mon this good to begin with should not have this kind of ability. Blocking all status is insane and an ability this powerful should be given to a mon with some kind of drawback. There is not much to say about that: Gholdengo is just toxic. Not being able to remove hazards at all blocking rapid spin, mortal spin and defog is just extremely unhealthy. Especially in this gen where the options to set up hazard seem almost infinite as we got
and in general alot of mons got access to spikes. It is even more evident now as we have
flying over OU spiking and rocking teams to oblivion with Gholdengo preventing any kind of counterplay.
II)
Gliscor is really a mon that, imo, is not well designed from the start. Being immune to all forms of status and having permanent +12% health that cannot be knock offed is insanely good. Now it can spike (huge buff) and rock up freely with gholdengo's support. The longevity and options this thing has are, in my opinion, problematic. When facing gliscor I always end up having a PP war. Nothing can come in on this trash as knock off + toxic and its moderately strong eq make switching into this thing not that easy. Chipping it down to then get koed feels almost an impossible task as not only it has the above mentioned poison heal but it is also completely immune to spikes and t spikes being only normal weak to rocks. Coupled with other mons like
gliscor really creates nasty cores, and lets not talk about Gliscor v Gliscor, this is just a stupid situation to say the least. Gliscor is just a mon that fits too many roles into one slot and there is literally 0 drawbacks using it unless you run HO.
III)
This is the easiest one to spot as ban material. It has 0 natural counters. The only shot you have at """""""""""walling""""""""" this are tera grass
or tera flying
. It is not even true walling as Ogerpon has tons upon tons of options, most notably encore, spikes, knock off and taunt. It has super decent bulk for its role and has more than decent speed tier. Grass/Water on a mon that has built in 1.2 damage on every move is just too much. Having 0 counters and all of the above perks I think that it's pretty clear this mon should be removed. It is not as clearly broken as its fire counterpart as it has not the built in 1.5 attack boost on tera but in the end it really makes up in other areas (better defensive typing and you still get 1.5 spef boost that can really help for things like
).
*Cinderace is trash argument: Cinderace rarely used court change the past gen cause the move was not that good on such a frail mon and Cinderace was much better spent as a sweeper. Now with Libero nerf and the generally increased power level cinderace is extremely bad as a sweeper and is used soley because of the capability of using court change. As we said cinderace never ran court because it is objectively a mediocre if not outright bad move on a mon this frail, it is used just because we have accepted that in this meta gholdengo exists and coupled with other mons like Ting lu, glimmora and especially Gliscor Cinderace can be a good mon to run. Again I think this thing can absolutely be an RUBL mon this gen considering the power level, so having it that high in OU because of Gholengo is just the sign of an unhealthy meta.
I)
Now there are countless things that could be said about this golden boi.
People really be using
In short:
Now the ability is total bullshit. Here we really start to get down into a spiral of madness in my opinion. A mon this good to begin with should not have this kind of ability. Blocking all status is insane and an ability this powerful should be given to a mon with some kind of drawback. There is not much to say about that: Gholdengo is just toxic. Not being able to remove hazards at all blocking rapid spin, mortal spin and defog is just extremely unhealthy. Especially in this gen where the options to set up hazard seem almost infinite as we got
II)
Gliscor is really a mon that, imo, is not well designed from the start. Being immune to all forms of status and having permanent +12% health that cannot be knock offed is insanely good. Now it can spike (huge buff) and rock up freely with gholdengo's support. The longevity and options this thing has are, in my opinion, problematic. When facing gliscor I always end up having a PP war. Nothing can come in on this trash as knock off + toxic and its moderately strong eq make switching into this thing not that easy. Chipping it down to then get koed feels almost an impossible task as not only it has the above mentioned poison heal but it is also completely immune to spikes and t spikes being only normal weak to rocks. Coupled with other mons like
III)
This is the easiest one to spot as ban material. It has 0 natural counters. The only shot you have at """""""""""walling""""""""" this are tera grass
*Cinderace is trash argument: Cinderace rarely used court change the past gen cause the move was not that good on such a frail mon and Cinderace was much better spent as a sweeper. Now with Libero nerf and the generally increased power level cinderace is extremely bad as a sweeper and is used soley because of the capability of using court change. As we said cinderace never ran court because it is objectively a mediocre if not outright bad move on a mon this frail, it is used just because we have accepted that in this meta gholdengo exists and coupled with other mons like Ting lu, glimmora and especially Gliscor Cinderace can be a good mon to run. Again I think this thing can absolutely be an RUBL mon this gen considering the power level, so having it that high in OU because of Gholengo is just the sign of an unhealthy meta.
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oh fuck, glaceon is unironically a really solid matchup against gliscor. was player j a prophet? are wo-chien and gengar going to rise to ou next? find out the answer on the next episode of ou (spoiler: to find out the answer, turn the word "ou" upside down)
Precisely the best strat starter ever, uber previous gen, this is as accurate as fox newsPeople really be using, what can easily be assessed as a low tier UU mon, soley for gholdengo. Now when a mon this bad for OU standards*
*Insert a grass Type* While its presence is overwhelming, your points are exageration, as brute bonnet walls It *lol* and can tank hits Even at +2, can gunk shot It i think, While It may have a niche in a team. I agree on the ban, but not particularly the argumentsIII)
This is the easiest one to spot as ban material. It has 0 natural counters. The only shot you have at
also, got to admit It, meta change upon generations. Scarf lando/lando at All is rare this gen, While very very common the last 3-4 gens. clefable was trash.in gen1. Suicune is nO longer the goat It used to be. weather is not that oppressive anymore. Meta change upon gens. Also, cinderace as a sweeper was very good, but its pivoting ability plus speed was Too much. Look at me in the eyes and dare sAY that cinderace sweeps more easely than a z-gyarados, altho z-gyar never been ubers (oubl, anw)
Please be intellectually honest. The ability that made it broken had a huge nerf. So your sarcastic tone really feels out of place.
Ok well let me see, i can see gren, HUGE, COLOSSAL, GIGANTIC nerfed mon, in what, like, OU? and no, gren isn't good because of ghold. It is good because of the variety of moves It has, its unpredictability, and protean is Still viable.
First of all greninja now runs another ability like 90% of the times if not more. So bringing it up in this argument makes 0 sense. Furthermore greninja has little to nothing to do with gholdengo as it is a strong sweeper regardless of gholdengo thanks to its new ability and offensive typing. Cinderace is ran only and soley for court change, that's a fact. Why people all of a sudden start running court change over standard hazard removal? The question is pretty easy to answer.
Did you know that Ou tiers dont care about what's overwhelming and what's not? Why do every team in gen2 has a snorlax? Why do every team in gen2 have a roar or a whirlwind? And Still snorlax is gen2OU. In any case ogerpon w is more broken than ghold Even tho An action must be taken. I agree on the idea, but not on the arguments
Back with more dumb shit from SCL, here's a great replay between top talents Fogbound Lake and fan-favorite Storm Zone. As we can see, Fog has loaded Corviknight against Gliscor Hazard-stack, a Gliscor Hazard-Stack with no Gholdengo no less! Literally the dream matchup. No way Gliscor is gonna completely take over this game, surely!
Of course Fog got unlucky, but how unlucky really with how many Ice Fangs Corviknight was inevitably going to eat that game? I've seen SD Gliscor's freeze through/PP Stall Unaware Clef, an on-paper "hard counter" to set-up sweepers, multiple times in this meta. This is the future Ghold prioritisers want.
To be serious for a moment though, if you want to call this an outlier be my guest, but if you're going to do that I really recommend you take a scroll through the SCL Replays thread. It's like an art gallery of Gliscor completely dictating the flow of nearly any game it's in.
***
As a side-topic of discussion to make this post more substantive than just ultimately absurd-replay-posting, I want to bring up Magnezone. If Gholdengo were to get banned over Gliscor, we would almost certainly see Corviknight jump to incredibly high usage, considering even with Ghold the mon is quite strong (B+ on the VR), and with that comes inevitable Magnezone. What then? Shed Shell won't work since you're usually coming in on a Gliscor Knock. You can Tera and Roost on the hit before switching I suppose, but does that mean that if you don't want to lose to Gliscor Hazard-Stack you not only must run Corv, but you also have to use your Tera on it? That's insane.
I would once again like to recommend everyone gives Gliscor a "5" on the next survey that arrives. If it gets a 4 or higher it can get quickbanned. We can do it guys. I believe in you. Even the Buzzwole guy.
Of course Fog got unlucky, but how unlucky really with how many Ice Fangs Corviknight was inevitably going to eat that game? I've seen SD Gliscor's freeze through/PP Stall Unaware Clef, an on-paper "hard counter" to set-up sweepers, multiple times in this meta. This is the future Ghold prioritisers want.
To be serious for a moment though, if you want to call this an outlier be my guest, but if you're going to do that I really recommend you take a scroll through the SCL Replays thread. It's like an art gallery of Gliscor completely dictating the flow of nearly any game it's in.
***
As a side-topic of discussion to make this post more substantive than just ultimately absurd-replay-posting, I want to bring up Magnezone. If Gholdengo were to get banned over Gliscor, we would almost certainly see Corviknight jump to incredibly high usage, considering even with Ghold the mon is quite strong (B+ on the VR), and with that comes inevitable Magnezone. What then? Shed Shell won't work since you're usually coming in on a Gliscor Knock. You can Tera and Roost on the hit before switching I suppose, but does that mean that if you don't want to lose to Gliscor Hazard-Stack you not only must run Corv, but you also have to use your Tera on it? That's insane.
I would once again like to recommend everyone gives Gliscor a "5" on the next survey that arrives. If it gets a 4 or higher it can get quickbanned. We can do it guys. I believe in you. Even the Buzzwole guy.
gliscor is like zygarde 50% imo. Comparable influence, spikes.was Too.much for one, gen8 Too much for the Other one. Assume power creep guys. gengar Still not ru After 9 gens
Only Dondozo and Alomomola? So are we just gonna ignore Rillaboom, Zapdos, ID Corviknight, Amoonguss, Physically bulky Clef, base form Ogerpon and every Dragon-type? It doesn't even have the wild card of having an unknown item, since it cannot change it, which means you can always revenge kill it with a faster mon (as long as it doesn't Trailblaze).III)
This is the easiest one to spot as ban material. It has 0 natural counters. The only shot you have at """""""""""walling""""""""" this are tera grassor tera flying
. It is not even true walling as Ogerpon has tons upon tons of options, most notably encore, spikes, knock off and taunt. It has super decent bulk for its role and has more than decent speed tier. Grass/Water on a mon that has built in 1.2 damage on every move is just too much. Having 0 counters and all of the above perks I think that it's pretty clear this mon should be removed. It is not as clearly broken as its fire counterpart as it has not the built in 1.5 attack boost on tera but in the end it really makes up in other areas (better defensive typing and you still get 1.5 spef boost that can really help for things like).
Remember when people here used to say that Pao was not a problem cause "Azumarill walls it"? We literally have Sap Sipper Azumarill that completely walls Ogerpon-Wellspring, and yet not a single soul is using it as a counter to it because there's simply no need to.
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Invoking gen 2 Snorlax is an awful argument to not ban something - gen 1-3 was a very different time for Smogon and things were very rarely banned, if generation 2 was the current gen Snorlax would certainly be banned under current tiering policy.
Thundurus-T can't even switch into Gliscor unless you predict it's going to use EQ. Gliscor can use Knock off or Toxic on Thundurus-T switch in, now what?
Gliscor makes half the tier become useless or not good pokemon and Gliscor forced Great Tusk to run Ice Spinner. Gliscor still beat Ice Spinner Great Tusk with Toxic / Protect and still set Spikes up regardless. Cinderace completely folds to Gliscor, Pyro Ball doesn't do shit to Gliscor and still set Spikes up.
We have to run HDB on many pokemon as possible as we can. Carkoala's team had a lacking the immunity to hazards and actually tried to deal with hazards via Great Tusk. His pokemon without boots falls over to the Spikes and it was really easy for Gliscor set up Spikes on that game. Sylveon's team didn't make any attempts to remove the Spikes and overwhelmed carkoala's team with Gliscor's Spikes.
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