Dude, I want Gambit banned too, but let's not act as if Smogon's voting system was rigged for that one instance. Disagree with the DNB voters all you like, but the supermajority threshold was 100% not new and plenty of other stuff got banned. These rules were always in place. No one was complaining when other stuff got banned with that rule in place. Well, they were, but Smogon users complain about everything and it wasn't so insistently brought up like this. Point being, not only was this rule something that existed before the Gambit suspect, it's not one I recall you complaining about until something you wanted banned wasn't. Settle down a bit. Parroting 55% isn't going to help the cause.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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I didn’t say it needed to be changed or that it was rigge. I am just stating the facts; Gambit was voted ban by 55%. 55% means most players dislike its presence in the tier. Just echoing the sentiment here.
Tera is dumb. Gambit is cancer. And right now everything on the survey is some form of broken checking broken. Don’t shoot the messenger.
I personally like using Moon. And gave my reason for liking it. That’s how a lot of people are thinking and voting these days. Preferential brokenness. Gambit and Tera make this tier feel unserious.
You can say you're mad that it wasn't banned. That's fine. That does not hurt your argument or make me look down on you. I am also mad it wasn't banned. There's no need to back it up and go "Well MOST people want it banned so I'm just saying what we're all thinking". What you're saying is you're upset Gambit was banned even though it got 55% of the vote. What I'm saying is I don't think it's right to complain about how voting is done when it's always been like this and that's never been a problem until now. You know, I actually agree with everything you're saying. I don't like Tera and I think Gambit needs to go to Ubers. I just think your reasons for saying it are bad and I want to not be associated with them when I say similar things.
the vote doesn't have to be "rigged" for it to be total bullshit. it's stupid that gambit wasn't banned, it's stupid that people voted dnb to hold the meta hostage and demand a tera suspect as ransom, it's stupid that they were allowed to do that and get off scot-free even though voting like that is actively tampering with the suspect process, it's stupid that the council is pretending that it's even remotely ok for such a blatant cheatermon to be here because the suspect failed, it's stupid that they're dragging their feet on it because the volcarona decision was poorly received by a vocal minority of people even though quickbanning it was the correct decision, it's stupid that i have to resign myself to waiting for gen 10 and hoping the bisharp line gets perma-dexited because dlc2 is probably going to start with the same dumbass "man, this meta looks too balanced, let's drop these obviously broken ubers" decision that smothered crown tundra in the crib and we'll spend the whole rest of the gen cleaning that mess up and re-banning things that should have stayed banned instead of banning things that have deserved a ban since day fucking one. it's all bullshit. fuck kingambit
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damn ya'll, ya should try like, lowert gens or something if y'all hate OU this much. Thats what we did back in the good old days. Not saying it to disrespect Finch and all the others that have to deal with the shit GF has been serving up in terms of balance
I'm Curious RaikouLover, Do you think gambit would be fine in a non-tera metagame? I think it probably would be since it would have real answers in the tier if it can't click tera to bypass those answers and get a free SD to sweep your team, and thus while still something you have to account for not unreasonable like it is now. I think while probably still like S rank material in a non-tera meta, it would be a lot more reasonable to deal with. Gambit is very much like Volc in my eyes, being that just like Volc it probably doesn't belong here if tera is allowed.
Not RaikouLover, but I think gambit could be fine in a non-tera meta because it dies to any fighting move and has no way to threaten tusk outside of iron head and it still get's ohko'd. I also has no way to threaten/live hits from specific mons like valiant and other gambit checks.
i don't hate ou, i hate that even with the council working faster and harder than ever before we're going to be heading into dlc2 with unsolved balance issues, and i know that the council hates that fact just as much as i do. and i despise kingambit. we need to start using kokoloko tiering instead of "the traditional system but faster"
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It's called respecting the results of a vote. No one is denying it's problematic, but the time simply isn't right to retest it.
Whether it was correct or not is irrelevant, not to mention subjective. Council trying to be more transparent and connected with the community by taking time to get community input first isn't "dragging their feet".
UU this gen is actually pretty heat but then they banned Ceruledge who is my boy so I'm back here in the shit pit out of stubborn loyalty to my dumbfuck edgy son.
Also, I liked pre-Teal Mask OU, so it's not like I went into this with anything but fresh dislike.
Do you have any idea how bad it would look if the council banned Gambit as a sudden one-off thing, when it failed to get banned in a suspect test (I don't care by how much or why, people got reqs fairly and voted and the total wasn't enough by the same rules that were there in every suspect before it), and apparently it was voted as less contentious than Roaring Moon this survey? Really, really imagine. If this was about something else like Waterpon, you'd agree that it would be completely insane, right? A blatant abuse of power that isn't just not working with the community, but actively overturning their decisions? What you are asking the council to do is torpedo their reputation and the trust they've earned from the community for the sake of one ban that they don't even agree is the biggest problem in OU right now.
The Volcarona situation is way worse than you seem to be remembering it. There were at least twelve new pages on the board in less than 24 hours just from back and forth complaining over it. No one was happy. People were posting insane conspiracies about whether or not one person who voted for the quickban was even a real person. To this day, people still bring it up as the ultimate example of apparent power abuse from the council. Certainly, it's a vocal minority now who care about it, but back then? It was a huge deal. Don't downplay it to make them sound unreasonable.
For sure Gambit would be fine in a non-Tera meta. Still will be a strong af OU Pokémon but at least it won’t straight up laugh at half the shit we attack it with. That’s been my issue with most of the OU ban list to this point. There will still be bannable mons but not on some cheap “I just foil my checks’ counterplay” energy.
At this point I imagine people are just fatigued by the endless bans being instituted ad-nauseum. It hasn't even been a year, and already we're looking at the 18th ban of Gen IX, with even more on the way through both what's currently present alongside what's likely to come in DLC2. It's exhausting, and speaks to a deeper question I think of how sustainable Smogon really is now when it's force to endlessly ban stuff just to try and achieve some kind of simulacrum of a normal metagame.
the council improved A LOT with with this dlc, with the "old" format probably at this time we was at the point of MAYBE suspecting oger flame; i don't know what changed but now they are acting really fast with suspects, which is really good
all the thing u said are about a metagame that does not exist anymore and the current one can die in less than 2 months; no idea why the priority should be to retest gambit if there are 3+ more stronger pokemon that deserve to be tested and tera is still on hold since april 2023
don't be mad about a metagame u probably even play, no idea if u troll just stop it
That's just the nature of staggered releases like Home, DLC etc. that come with modern games. Making adjustments to the metagame via the community with suspect tests is literally what makes the game sustainable.
Been keeping an eye on this as DLC1 dropped. Been seeing a lot of... Interesting comments here. Thought I'd ring in my two-cents as a garbage player from the outside.
Tera - While I enjoyed Tera as a mechanic pre-DLC1 (and moreso pre-HOME), I'm finding that with a larger and larger selection of mons available to us, that Tera is becoming increasingly problematic. There's a lot more that can effectively weaponize it and it's causing more problems and headaches than is really worth it. While it isn't anywhere near as broken as D/GMax, I think it might be time for it to go. If not soon, then post DLC2 is when it should be tested again (especially with Rainbow Tera coming in.) It was a fun and useful gimmick when the dex selection was limited but now... Probably time to say goodbye.
Ogerpon(s) - I'm not surprised to see multiple Ogerpons being tested. It's kinda wild that they get a 1.2x power boost, a stat boost that works on each switch-in, and an immunity to Knock Off (plus having an amazing move pool.) I haven't personally played with it yet (as I haven't built any teams to slot it onto while trying to find a comfortable Gliscor/Empoleon core to play with) but I've seen it in replays and on opposing IG teams. IG I've had little issues addressing it, but I know that things can be unhealthy without being a problem for some people.
Gliscor (3) - Honestly, I find Gliscor's problem to be Gholdengo. Gholdengo has always had such a strangehold on the hazards metagame since day 1. I looked at it and went "That thing is busted, it's most likely going to get itself banned" -- and I'm not far off with the current talks. Immunity to both Spins and Defog is insanely powerful, leaving only Court Change and Tidy Up (where my Tubesock Furret friendos at?) as hazard control that goes through Ghost/GAG. Gliscor itself I haven't seen as a problem, both using it and going against it. Yes, it has insane utility, and yes it has multiple sets... But if we banned a Pokemon based on that alone, there's so many other Pokemon that should've been hit too. (Which is a really bad take, I know.) I'd rather look at Gholdengo over Gliscor first.
Roaring Moon (3) - This one surprised me. I've never had a lot of success with RM, and it getting Knock Off hasn't changed my views on it. I've ran it on a few teams (mostly Tera Flying Acrobatics DD), and I've never really found that it was an overbearing mon -- the opportunity cost to set up was just never there. The best I could really do is either threaten what's on the board with a Booster: Speed, or get a +1 off DD and take one mon down with it and dent another. That was it.
Gholdengo (4) - See: Gliscor. Dengo is just one wild mon, honestly... and is a major glue for hazard stacking teams. I've ran it a handful of times in Balance with SR or SR + Spikes... Almost never had any Spin/Defog blocks. More often than not I'd wind up using it to stop an incoming status (usually Spore) or bait Garg with Cloak and laugh. But still, this thing does everything and the kitchen sink.
Kingambit (4) - Still think this thing is dumb and wildly unbalanced. Seeing as how Supreme Overlord is only on this mon, and it's what really breaks it (coming from someone who uses AV Gambit damn near religiously when using Gambit at all), Gambit really should go at some point. It's just too dumb.
Ursa Bloodmoon (4) - On paper this thing was... Okay. In practice with using it, it was mid (bulky CM set.) Going against it... Was 50/50. If my team was actually able to respond to it, then it did very little to scare me, but if my team was crippled/RNG was not kind/wasn't set up to handle it, it ran train. (Keeping in mind that I wasn't building to beat it specifically.) Glad that it's gone, big bear belongs in the big house.
Manaphy (2) - Kind of silly with Tera and Take Heart, but otherwise I either haven't seen it, or I've punished it to an extreme degree. Haven't piloted with it yet, maybe some time down the line. Overall, not really much of a thing I pay attention to unless I see it in preview.
Sneasler (2) - This used to be a 4/5 for me. But with Poison Heal Gliscor, Sneasler is now completely F'd. Gliscor absolutely walls the hell out of this thing if it doesn't carry SD. If Gliscor goes, then Tera Ghost Corvi is the next best thing (which then dies to Dire Claw.) Or maybe Tera Ghost Clefable. Overall, checkable.
Other notes: Not much to say aside from MAH BOI AZU GOT SUBPUNCH BACK! LES GOOOO! That was my JAM in BDSP. So much fun to screw around with.
Edit: Thought of a funny.
Gliscor is in court against GameFreak. Gliscor sits at the stand and the prosecutor brings a Gliscor doll to the stand asks them to "Please show us on the doll where they nerfed you."
Gliscor points to the feet on the doll and says "There. They took away my ability to Roost."
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man kingambit doesnt need paldea anymore, even after 2 months after the suspect ended he is living rent free on peoples heads
see, this is why we should do all the bans up front and drop them individually instead of the other way around
now why would you ruin a perfectly reasonable post with this. you were making good points and i was fine with what you had to say until you started flinging those allegations at me. you disrespect me by insinuating i don't play the game, that i can take, but you insult me by accusing me of trolling when i'm not. if i were trolling, you'd be either laughing or seething too hard to even type up a response. you haven't seen trolling until you've seen me do it. i am the concept of trolling given flesh and i will not stand for someone accusing me of doing what i'm best at when i'm trying to be earnest for once.
i was. one of those at least 12 new pages contains me saying that volcarona was a pimple on the behind of ou and i was glad it was finally popped
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"Just how things go?"
Again, 18 bans. We are 18 bans in, and Gen IX still won't be a year old for another month. Rounded up, that is two mons being banned every month. This is something with a destructive influence on the culture and morale of the community, because now everyone is just burdened with the fatigue of knowing that it's never enough, that what one ban amounts to is just another step in an ambiguous effort to achieve some kind of theoretical normality with no true end-point. At some point one just needs to stop I think, and reconsider if any of this is really worth the struggle.
Sorry if I sound pessimistic. Just speaking my thoughts on the matter.
I completely get being burnt out because of this, and I am also the same way to a certain extent. But like, are our alternatives much better? Not banning stuff and making OU this disorganized mess where the only thing that stops your broken shit is some other broken shit and no one has fun doing anything but cheesing it? Giving up and just... not doing OU this generation? Either option sets a terrible precedent for the next generation, knowing that we have a "give up" threshold that was met once before and will have people calling for it again no matter what.
A challenge that I see for Maushold is that it can’t run Boots if you want Wide Lens for reliable Population Bombs. A hazard remover that’s susceptible to every hazard out there is difficult to rely on. Particularly one that is also frail.
That's kinda why I say this is calling the sustainability of Smogon into question, because none of the options present to keep things running are good ones. It's very much something which needs a broader and more nuanced conversation, rather than just slapping a band-aid on a bleeding wound.
I mean, Gen IX is pretty unprecedented in some of the stuff it's introduced, and besides those things, a lot of those bans were just straightforwardly overtuned things like FM/Palafin. Notice how people have been complaining about the same few mons (Ghold, Ival, Gambit, occasionally Sneasler) all gen, not counting the stuff given to us by DLC obviously. I think getting rid of those big threats, along with whatever stupid stuff DLC2 inevitably brings, and getting rid of Tera (opinions may vary wildly on this one though), will help the tier a lot. SV has a lot of potential to be a good meta and I don't think it will turn into finding a new broken threat every week once the dust settles, not any more than any other OU at last
At the end of the day this is a game meant for entertainment. If you feel fatigue and burden from this generation of competitive mons then maybe (and I mean this in the nicest way possible) it’s time to take a break. Go for what makes you happy and take care of yourself.
As far as the endgoal, generally speaking I think people just want an enjoyable meta. And this, to me, seems quite feasible. Maybe Gen 9 forbids perfect balancing, but I believe it’s still possible to have fun in an unbalanced meta. The OU mods seem to be working hard at suspecting, getting community input, etc. Each ban is an improvement, and clearly people are enjoying themselves along the way, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. Also keep in mind that OU is still technically in its infancy since we have been shaken up by HOME and DC1. I think things will stabilize a bit more after DC2.
says you, buddy. this meta could, in my opinion, be fixed with a combination of kokoloko tiering and early-bw-style mass suspecting:
step 1: send out a survey including every mon in the tier, to prevent any potential personal biases from including or excluding certain things on the survey
step 2: quickban anything scoring above a certain threshold (lower than usual)
step 3: wait a week or two for the meta to settle; if any mons become problematic during that time, qb them as well
step 4: send out a survey on all the banned mons
step 5: using the survey data, conduct a simultaneous suspect on all the banned mons the community has deemed unbanworthy
step 6: drop everything that the community votes to drop, then tier normally from that point onward
i think this is what should be done in the immediate aftermath of dlc2, immediately followed by a second tera suspect. yes, it's an incredibly heavy-handed approach, but i believe it's necessary for the sake of efficiency—it would relieve a lot of pressure on the tier at once
considering finch and the rest of the council have said that mass suspects are not an option, the shorter suspects are probably the best we're gonna get. I think they're a good idea esp for things that have been around a while so it's harder to say "just adapt bro"
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