i would literally rather free skymin. base 125 speed hypnosis is more uncompetitive than base 127 speed serene grace air slash. the former has a 60% chance to generate a minimum of one free turn including on mons that outspeed you, while the latter has a 57% chance to generate a maximum of one free turn exclusively on mons that are slower than you. people don't understand just how good fast sleep moves are. and that isn't even darkrai's best set
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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NabboCheTesta
Gniubbo come sempre
IMO Espathra has no place in a competitive meta and is best kept confined in whatever tier it's completely unviable in.
It's the ultimate example of a mon that either does nothing at all or wins the game virtually by itself.
I beg your pardon o_O
Bloodmoon currently is being suspected. Now I want you to tell me: does Bloodmoon do anything more than setup/kill things? Hell, all offensive pokemon are like this. My brain doesn't compute with this reasoning. Please prove me wrong.
Iron Valiant is fine. There are mons that serve as a good initial pivot to Iron Valiant to scout the set such as Amoonguss, Toxapex specially defensive Corviknight, Gliscor, and Clefable. As far as teambuilder constraining mons go, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, Gholdengo, and Manaphy are all harder to deal with than Iron Valiant, making it not even one of the Top 5 hardest to account for in the builder.
And there are definitely ways to force it in and waste its Booster Energy as people have indicated, which lessens its threat level.
And there are definitely ways to force it in and waste its Booster Energy as people have indicated, which lessens its threat level.
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My most used solution for fresh Iron Valiant has been to switch Ting-Lu and Whirlwind to waste the Booster Energy, activating Tera Ghost if the set is revieled to be SD. After that Zama is free to Heavy Slam it or insert any faster mon or scarfer able to kill it
Are you kidding? Is this a joke? Are you doing a bit? First of all you've said yourself you haven't played this metagame so just stop. Second there's a difference between a setup sweeper that has 113 HP, 135 Def, and 0 switch ins, and iron valiant who folds to the slightest breeze. This reply is a joke. Ladder more post less.
I beg your pardon o_O
Bloodmoon currently is being suspected. Now I want you to tell me: does Bloodmoon do anything more than setup/kill things? Hell, all offensive pokemon are like this. My brain doesn't compute with this reasoning. Please prove me wrong.
Yea this doesn't really make sense to me. At best with darkrai you sleep 1 mon and then (insert faster mon) comes in and steals your bitch. At best with skymin you can flinch through even a full team of its checks/counters. Oh yea also hypnosis doesnt do damage (ig 12.5% if u want to count bad dreams) but air slash can hit like a truck and generates value even when it doesn't flinch. Most importantly, Hypnosis becomes useless once a mon has been slept and you give up a valuable moveslot while skymin is running air slash as its stab regardless. In terms of uncompetitiveness its not even a competition.
You're literally just looking at 60% > 57% and making a nonsensical argument when skymin is obviously more bs to face.
not to mention iron valiant already has a very fast hypnosis and more offensive options than darkrai
On paper Valiant has a many sets but in reality its only using couple cause most of them either suck or have big opportunity cost.
Physical Valiant used to be the go-to but ever since the introduction of Clef, Gliscor, and Mola, they’ve been dogshit at actually cleaning games. Mixed sets are decent suffer from a lack of horsepower that would’ve otherwise be achieved with the other sets. Same with Scarf but it can at least cripple a wall with Trick.
Imo the best Valiant set is CM with Specs as a runner up. Specs has good immediate power in this metagame and a good mu against builds lacking a sturdy fairy resist. CM only needs CM/Moonblast/Sball and the choice between Psyshock, Encore, or Substitute.
Physical Valiant used to be the go-to but ever since the introduction of Clef, Gliscor, and Mola, they’ve been dogshit at actually cleaning games. Mixed sets are decent suffer from a lack of horsepower that would’ve otherwise be achieved with the other sets. Same with Scarf but it can at least cripple a wall with Trick.
Imo the best Valiant set is CM with Specs as a runner up. Specs has good immediate power in this metagame and a good mu against builds lacking a sturdy fairy resist. CM only needs CM/Moonblast/Sball and the choice between Psyshock, Encore, or Substitute.
Saying Air Slash hits like a truck and that a sleep move is a wasted moveslot once you slept something has gotta be some of the funniest shit i've read on Smogon in awhile, this thread just keeps on giving
Things like these are why we need a "true" reaction button on Smogon. Mans be spitting straight facts
And no, this isn't the first time I seen this. This was just the most recent one
From exp....Skymin feels far more uncompetitive than even 80% Dark Void Darkrai ever did.
Darkai sleeping one mon vs repetitive 57% chances to not interact, while taking consistent damage on top of other things like leech and sub isn't even a contest in what is more annoying to face.
Any fast mon with a "good/consistent" sleep option will be insane. Thing is 60% Hypnosis isn't good....or consistent.
We've got a quite a few mons similar to this...Cloyster, Polteageist..etc. It always comes down to coverage moves and power. Espathra doesn't have much of either and it's stab isn't hard to find a resist to.
The only coverage it needs is dazzling gleam, psychic resists drop to stored power after enough boosts
you're right! hypnosis has lower risk and higher reward, so it's pretty clear-cut which one is less skill-based
then why does valiant run it sometimes?
60% isnt 80%, while sleep is powerful, 60% is pretty low, and a miss can lose you the game. Meanwhile shaymin can use that 57% flinch while ALSO peppering the opponent with damage.
Espathra would not even be remotely broken with Tera banned. Without Tera, I don't think it'd even have UU level usage given how weak Dazzling Gleam is without STAB and how it wouldn't have any way of breaking Steel-type Pokemon. Espathra would probably be RUBL in a Teraless meta and would be nowhere close to needing tiering action in OU.
????????????????
My brother in Christ, you cannot seriously be saying that hypnosis is lower risk than air slash. That is lunacy
That dazzling gleam is realistically coming off of one or multiple calm minds and as i said, stored power once boosted enough takes care of everything that isn’t a dark type
I know that I’m assuming that the espathra is already set up in this scenario. This is because you either bring in a dark type immediately when espathra hits the field (which does force it out, yes, but it can just come back later once the dark type is removed) or the dark type loses to boosted dazzling gleam + espathra has it’s teammates to deal with the dark types it can’t beat
It might not be broken without tera but it would certainly not be as bad (as in not good) as you seem to think it would be
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Cerulege is a fvcking demon on sun teams. Very underrated mon. Unfortunately, Poltergeist wasn’t all that helpful in playtesting. It can even be a liability (knock off is still one of the best moves in the game).
This is max Spatk Espathra after 2 Calm Mind + 1 Speed Boost on Bold Corv. This is not dropping resists....Almost every meta relevant Steel atm beats Espatha. UUBL at absolute best and this is probably pushing it.
Thinking in a vacuum hurts more than it helps.
Free turns are fun sure, but now ask....how many of these do you see and what happens when those people that run it sometimes miss....
LOL, why would Espathra only be at +1 Speed after two Calm Minds? You do realize that it has Speed Boost, and it often runs Substitute and/or Protect to help rack up boosts? I'm going to assume you've never actually played against the ostrich
the kind that shifts the topic away from dropping darkrai because i'm tired of people parroting their bullshit lines about it being "overlooked" or "power-crept". the best way to stop a stupid discussion is to start an even stupider one
There is plenty of counterplay to Garganacl outside of Covert Cloak. With Shaymin-Sky, it basically forces you to either out-offense it with a faster mon or use Covert Cloak to not be flinched to death. If people used to think Jirachi's Iron Head was annoying, Shaymin-S's Air Slash is far more oppressive coming off its higher Base Special Attack and better attacking type in Flying (Steel is the second worst attacking type in the game) that is non-contact.
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