Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[OhioGengar]

Hello Everyone,

As you may or may not know me as Ultra Swole Slam on PS, I have created a wondrous (yet, maybe, stupid) invention of......

Choice Specs Great Tusk

Yes, what you saw just above is not a technical glitch, it is news that I have brought.

You may call me a madman but I, kind of and may have (not just yet), have changed the meta from its old perceptions. Now, I present to you the set:

Great Tusk @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground/Psychic/Steel/Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Psyshock
- Hyper Beam

As you can see, this is a fully special oriented set with nothing given to the attack stat, plus, since its highest stat now is its speed, under sun you basically get a choice specs + choice scarf attacking mon. Also, this set does rely on Terastallization a lot, so try to save your Tera as much as possible. But, it does catch people off guard and can basically stop Weak Armor abusing players in their tracks. This set is mainly, I advice, more useful on sum teams to receive the sun boost (A team based on that will be published as soon as possible by me). This set can use various Tera Types like Ground, Psychic to boost the main moves. And Hyper Beam is just a filler, if you have found any better move to fit in, you can do it to increase to experience

Damage calculations to prove the point:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Great Tusk Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 218-260 (50.4 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Great Tusk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 178-210 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Great Tusk Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey: 462-544 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Great Tusk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Great Tusk Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 270-318 (93.4 - 110%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

(Note: This set is inspired by previous attempts, as far as I've heard, who have not picked up popularity. I hope this can make a bigger impact than previous attempts)

I hope this can excite a few people and kindly please suggest what this set is incapable of so that I can highlight in a follow-up post.

 

[G-Luke]

Agree, if quick claw were busted you could give it to Rampardos or Luxray to be good but those mons are still bad because if quick claw doesn't proc they are dead, while the mons in this team just trade health if quick claw doesn't proc, just like you say, quick claw just makes the play that needed to be done better, while frail and slow mons depend on it.

https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/toxapex/
Stuff like this is why scald teambuilding restrictions are bad, on gen7 the main Pex set was full special def, so what is the best way to deal with it? Physical attackers but when you can't bring them safely agaisnt it then you were screwed (no teleport on that gen so no slow pivots into pex) while the Pex user had no reason to no click scald 90% of the time. At least gen 7 still had the full dex and other tools like megas or z moves to get around this, but with a limited dex scald limitations feel like they are too much.

This is a Pex issue, not a Scald issue. It's too good at abusing Scald, which I agree with, fuck Toxapex. All of your arguments are centered around Pex doing this or that, not how game changing Scald in and of itself is.

 

[IExistYouDont]

Why are you all crying about quick claw. Its not even that bad it only just literally get luckier. dont ban it or i cant get 2k again

 

[Divine Retribution]

My position with these kind of things is simple: if everyone is able to abuse something that is broken/luck reliant/unhealthy, I want it out. If only some people are able to use with consistent results something broken/luck reliant/unhealthy, then I want it in the meta to frustrate the dominant players that are not able to use that strategy well.

I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest thing I've read on these threads in a long time, and this kind of attitude is poison to building a healthy, enjoyable metagame, not to mention blatantly contradicts tiering philosophy.

There's also literally no situation where only "some people" would be able to abuse something luck reliant. Either it works consistently for everyone or it doesn't. Dominant players are dominant for a reason, and if some new luck-based set starts making waves, they will learn to use it a lot better than your average player will.

The problem with many luck-based mechanics isn't that they're too consistent or that they upset metagame trends, it's that they're not consistent; they take an element of control of the match completely out of the player's hands. This is completely antithetical to the core concepts of a competitive game. If you like luck-based mechanics, maybe try Blackjack or something.

 

[IExistYouDont]

There's also literally no situation where only "some people" would be able to abuse something luck reliant

Are you saying my luck isnt real? 2k with 86 gxe in 3 days is not normal for a guy normally in 1700s. Who else is abusing it better

 

[Divine Retribution]

Are you saying my luck isnt real? 2k with 86 gxe in 3 days is not normal for a guy normally in 1700s. Who else is abusing it better

Sir, please put down the crack pipe.

 

[Karxrida]

monoclaw is just a symptom of overall meta trends. if fat (read:stall. how tf does standard monoclaw break tera dozo+pex?) were more common, monoclaw would still be a gimmick, but you know why fat isn’t more common? tera. it all comes back to tera. i really can’t understand how people still try to defend tera when the OU meta is as godawful as it is right now. like, this is clearly the centralizing factor??? very clearly the source of the problem???

You know stall being less common is a win for a lot of people, right? To them it's a feature, not a bug.

Plus stall has a lot of issues outside of Tera this Generation.

 

[Mega Breloom]

This is a Pex issue, not a Scald issue. It's too good at abusing Scald, which I agree with, fuck Toxapex. All of your arguments are centered around Pex doing this or that, not how game changing Scald in and of itself is.

That was a trend on all the walls with access to scald, they would invest most or all of their evs on special def and hp because they can just cripple physical attackers that try to get rid of them since the special attackers couldn't break them usually, just like Piplz mentioned, when the ideal play can went wrong on 70-30 odds then there is no way to call it balanced. And again, that could be played around back then with access to all the tools avaliable, with a limited dex is just harder to it. Similar to salt cure, if we had all the magic guard mons then it wouldn't get many mentions that often, but with the limited dex the counterplay against a well played Garg is rather suboptimal or limted to certain team structures, which it can beat with the right set.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

You know stall being less common is a win for a lot of people, right? To them it's a feature, not a bug.

metas without stall are metas with broken offensive threats/playstyles. the viability of stall is a sign of a meta’s health: imo the healthiest metas have stall as a B-/B tier playstyle, and metas like this one where it’s fringe and unviable are just like, kinda unbearable tbh. but that’s just my opinion ig

 

[kosecant]

monoclaw is just a symptom of overall meta trends. if fat (read:stall. how tf does standard monoclaw break tera dozo+pex?) were more common, monoclaw would still be a gimmick, but you know why fat isn’t more common? tera. it all comes back to tera. i really can’t understand how people still try to defend tera when the OU meta is as godawful as it is right now. like, this is clearly the centralizing factor??? very clearly the source of the problem???

Stall lost way too many tools to be good for Tera to be its main issue (for example, no magic guard users, recovery move nerfs, loss of valuable moves like toxic, heal bell, and knock off, higher hazard distributions with less removers, etc). In fact, Tera would be one of its biggest boons if it weren’t for all the aforementioned problems stall is already facing. Something like blissey would be an absolute monster using defensive Tera for a better typing to hard counter some matchups

 

[Tay26]

Somewhat unrelated, but wasn't Quick Claw banned all the way back in the Netbattle days? When did it get unbanned? Or are my memories playing tricks on me?

 

[G-Luke]

I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest thing I've read on these threads in a long time, and this kind of attitude is poison to building a healthy, enjoyable metagame, not to mention blatantly contradicts tiering philosophy.

There's also literally no situation where only "some people" would be able to abuse something luck reliant. Either it works consistently for everyone or it doesn't. Dominant players are dominant for a reason, and if some new luck-based set starts making waves, they will learn to use it a lot better than your average player will.

The problem with many luck-based mechanics isn't that they're too consistent or that they upset metagame trends, it's that they're not consistent; they take an element of control of the match completely out of the player's hands. This is completely antithetical to the core concepts of a competitive game. If you like luck-based mechanics, maybe try Blackjack or something.

Ngl I didn't even clock that is what blud said, how can I take anything they say ever after that seriously

 

[G-Luke]

That was a trend on all the walls with access to scald, they would invest most or all of their evs on special def and hp because they can just cripple physical attackers that try to get rid of them since the special attackers couldn't break them usually, just like Piplz mentioned, when the ideal play can went wrong on 70-30 odds then there is no way to call it balanced. And again, that could be played around back then with access to all the tools avaliable, with a limited dex is just harder to it. Similar to salt cure, if we had all the magic guard mons then it wouldn't get many mentions that often, but with the limited dex the counterplay against a well played Garg is rather suboptimal or limted to certain team structures, which it can beat with the right set.

What walls do this with the level of efficiency of Toxapex? Certainly not the likes of Alomomola or the Slowtwins. Running SpD Slowbro is dogshit, Alo just sucks outside of VERY fat squads and is easy to take advantage of and Slowking obviously doesn't have the facilities for that. I can't even think of any other viable defensive Scald abusers in Modern Gen OUs (6 to present) outside of these Pokémon. Seriously I need to know if it's Scald or Toxapex is the issue. Because nothing is doing what you are describing anywhere with the same efficiency as Pex.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

What walls do this with the level of efficiency of Toxapex? Certainly not the likes of Alomomola or the Slowtwins. Running SpD Slowbro is dogshit, Alo just sucks outside of VERY fat squads and is easy to take advantage of and Slowking obviously doesn't have the facilities for that. I can't even think of any other viable Scald abusers in Modern Gen OUs (6 to present) outside of these Pokémon. Seriously I need to know if it's Scald or Toxapex is the issue. Because nothing is doing what you are describing anywhere with the same efficiency as Pex.

This isn't actually true. Spdef Bro has been used to incredible success in multiple OU tours and even tour finals; it's not a "dogshit" set, and the same can be said for King considering Physdef King has been used to much success. Pex itself is an entire different mon, though, and never should have Scald again. Just way too much versatility in one slot for a defensive mon, and honestly, it highlights literally everything people hate G8 for (Knock spam, Scald spam, Regen Wars, Toxic spam).

 

[G-Luke]

You're right, I was being hyperbolic. But SpD Slowbro and SpD Pex are different beasts man. The level of their ability to consistently wall shit ain't comparable

 

[ant4456]

Stall lost way too many tools to be good for Tera to be its main issue (for example, no magic guard users, recovery move nerfs, loss of valuable moves like toxic, heal bell, and knock off, higher hazard distributions with less removers, etc). In fact, Tera would be one of its biggest boons if it weren’t for all the aforementioned problems stall is already facing. Something like blissey would be an absolute monster using defensive Tera for a better typing to hard counter some matchups

not stall player, but balance player

the issue with balance is lack of role compression, mostly due to move drops, and this leading to the incapability.

for a good balance, you need (well, want at least almost everything of):

A wincon.
A cleaner.
A wallbreaker.
A physical tank.
A special tank.
A pivot.
A phaser/hazer/NotLoseToSetupSweepers
A hazard setter.
A hazard remover.

notice how this list has 9 things listed. This is not that hard in most metas, in fact you can even find yourself with extra space. For instance, the famous Gen 8 Lando-T: Pivot, hazard remover, temporary tank.

Zapdos can be a pivot with hazard removal, and a tank. This is great for Balance. Now it is only a Pivot and a tank, meaning you need another Pokemon for that role.

You do not have the slots for everything because there is a major lack of role compression. And Pokemon like Corviknight, which could really help, have one of their roles straight-up denied by one of the most popular Pokemon in the format (Gholdengo)

This was at least salvageable with Hatterene, as it can be a Calm Mind wincon for balance and hazard denial, but

1. It has bad longevity. You need to force a lot of free turns, and few Pokemon in the tier cannot damage it well with uninvested hits.

2. Samurott-Hisui exists now

obviously you can be successful with Balance but it feels like ass to teambuild and I'm sad :(

 

[IExistYouDont]

Sir, please put down the crack pipe.

Sir im not smoking anything im simply more skilled nothing you can do

 

[Alternator]

There is no reason to keep an item that has no use other than to fish for random odds.

There is one reason, though: bans are undesirable. Necessary, yes! But undesirable, because there is inherently a slippery slope.

Banning evasion set a precedent that bans for pure RNG are acceptable, which is what leads to support for a Quick Claw ban. Quick Claw isn't nearly as powerful as evasion, of course; going first is much less impactful than negating the opponent's turn entirely, but this is the first time Quick Claw has found a viable team (a viable team, literally only one of them right now) and so RABBLE RABBLE BAN THE RNG.

Serene Grace exists purely to increase the RNG inherent to secondary effects. Are people going to make a case that Serene Grace is uncompetitive, when it also has zero functions outside increasing a random element? It's clearly not overpowered (it led to Shaymin-Sky being kicked into Ubers due to Seed Flare), but neither can you make that claim on Quick Claw, since the (singular) team that uses it is viable (and probably superior) without it. If "boost RNG" means Quick Claw should go, then so should Serene Grace.

Do we ban Quick Draw for consistency? It's only on one mon, but if 'randomly go first' is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then we need to nuke it entirely for consistency: it doesn't matter if it's powerful or widespread, if it's deemed uncompetitive, it needs to go.

Do we start acting on other sources of RNG? Flame Body, Static, Poison Point, and Effect Spore are all passive, like Quick Claw: if you have them, they function, no need to spend turns. Poison Point just works, the counterplay is switching to an immunity. How about Paralysis and Confusion in general, since they give you a chance to just lose a turn - which is in some ways even stronger than evasion, since evasion only affects attacking moves, and there are a handful that don't check accuracy.

There's valid reasons we haven't banned all those, of course, and I'm not suggesting we actually act on any of them, but if "ban RNG" is the new hotness, then sooner or later there's going to be a push to nuke them all. There's already been one (not entirely serious, as best I can tell) suggestion in this thread to ban the status moves, or mod them away from cart mechanics to remove the random elements.

PS: For the record, I'd have banned Cloyster and not King's Rock. That was a power issue, as shown by no wider action being taken against flinches, just this one very specific source. Jirachi with a 60% flinch chance isn't a problem (he's never been Ubers), so a 41% flinch chance on a single mon isn't "uncompetitive", it's just too strong on Cloyster.

 

[Mega Breloom]

What walls do this with the level of efficiency of Toxapex? Certainly not the likes of Alomomola or the Slowtwins. Running SpD Slowbro is dogshit, Alo just sucks outside of VERY fat squads and is easy to take advantage of and Slowking obviously doesn't have the facilities for that. I can't even think of any other viable defensive Scald abusers in Modern Gen OUs (6 to present) outside of these Pokémon. Seriously I need to know if it's Scald or Toxapex is the issue. Because nothing is doing what you are describing anywhere with the same efficiency as Pex.

But I'm not trying to say that scald makes any wall Pex level, I'm talking about the effects that scald has on builder, if Slowbro/King (running their oppposite best defensive evs), Pelipert, Mantine or other niche walls can just nulify physical attackers while walling the special walls then there is an issue. Pex itself is the reason why those mons aren't used more in the first place, if Pex wasn't as good they would be used more. The fact that even Fini would run scald a lot of times (to catch bullu/rilla changing the terrain or flying types) says how good the move is even when it looks suboptimal in some scenarios.

 

[pulsar512b]

what happened to make quick claw banworthy suddenly??

it was never not banworthy its just nothing's been done about it yet (i think because in the grand scheme of things its not super super suuper important) and the ou discussion thread is bored today and decided to start their once a month debate on this

 

[Mega Breloom]

it was never not banworthy its just nothing's been done about it yet (i think because in the grand scheme of things its not super super suuper important) and the ou discussion thread is bored today and decided to start their once a month debate on this

This, can't wait for the taunt debate the next month.

 

[MrE]

Taunt is obviously broken and should be banned, what do you mean I can't just set up for free on your shitmon?

 

[zReptar]

Taunt is obviously broken and should be banned, what do you mean I can't just set up for free on your shitmon?

Lmao

 

[Shurtugal]

Kingambit is incredibly broken. This Pokemon has very limited counterplay, as it is able to reverse sweep any team for almost free under the right circumstances. There's no way to counter its ability, which rewards the Gambit player for essentially playing bad, and its speed tier is just relevant enough to jump all the fat Pokemon that would want to outspeed it like Corviknight. So many games on the ladder have been boiling down to Sucker Punch 50-50s, it's incredibly insane how unskillful these interactions have felt. Winning or losing so many quantity of games stemming down to 50-50 sucker, or losing to King because they saved Tera to ensure your counter didnt work. It feels especially oppressive in the teambuilder, where it feels like you have to go out of your way to respect it at every step. It can brute force bulky teams, not even unaware is saving them, and offensive teams get punished for killing the enemy team by having to deal with 3/5 boosted Kinggambit's sucker punches.

What's annoying about it is that this Pokemon is rewarded from the player Losing the game, rewarded for letting teammates faint. Then having to toss a coin at whether or not you can attack this thing. Then the best part is, this Pokemon is so absurdly bulky, especially access to Tera (if you didn't manage to bait it out earlier in the match), allow this thing to pretty much guarantee taking 1-2 Pokemon down with it. Especially because this thing is reserved for the lategame, you're forced to never use your Kingambit counters for the entire match, opening up holes in other areas in the team. you could say that Kingambit's weakness is that it's primarily stronger at endgame, but no it's bulk is really good and can be used as a pivot around Pult, & even having an Overload boost of 2 is plenty for Kingambit to be effective earlier in the match. It doesn't matter if you lose too much health, because so long as it doesn't die, it can be backed up by a free 5+ Sucker Punch at endgame. Seriously, this thing is ridiculous.

I'd compare this thing to XY's Mega Mawhile, except Kingambit is actually far better than Maw.

This Pokemon has been used way more than the current suspected Pokemon, which I'm not even confident is broken. I wouldn't be upset to see it go, but I rarely stumble into it, and it feels like I don't have to warp teambuilding around it.

But yeah -- I just wanted to voice my concern about Kingambit, I'm assuming I can't be the only player realizing this.

 

[Avira]

You're definitely not the only person to see this, Shurtugal. Kingambit with Tera is an incredibly stupid mon to face due to how Supreme Overlord works. If Tera was banned, revenging Kingambit would be a lot simpler rather than your revenge kill attempt giving the Kingambit user the chance to further set up and sweep your team. Kingambit is yet another mon broken by Tera.