Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[tigers jaw]

can people stop arguing with finch for like a day or two, so my very Good & Funny posts can get the reacts they deserve. you are depriving me of dopamine, which is basically assault.

edit: omg u gentle souls… right into my veins

 

[Finchinator]

Ngl it was good at first when there was a lot to explain and go over, but now it’s just going in circles, yea.

 

[Scarfire]

I also like pokemon

 

[Mega Breloom]

My dumb and unsolicited suggestion, why not do what ubers is doing with Caly-S? It is officially baned and cannot be used on tours but there is a retest going in the ladder so the players can decide if it can stay or not after the quickban.

 

[Finchinator]

My dumb and unsolicited suggestion, why not do what ubers is doing with Caly-S? It is officially baned and cannot be used on tours but there is a retest going in the ladder so the players can decide if it can stay or not after the quickban.

Ubers bans all have to be done this way and generally play under a different set of rules than OU. But we are willing to do a ladder retest after Zama-H if the next survey supports it, so this is an option

 

[KamenOH]

The survey got Zamazenta-C and Chien-Pao banned.

And then completely unrelated to that survey, Volc and Urshifu were banned

I’ve already committed multiple times to creating a survey when the Zamazenta-C test is over. And I have committed to discussing Volcarona’s OU prospects further.

And where are the fruits of those labors? If its a matter of it being too soon, then when is appropriate? A commitment is one thing, but when it goes nowhere, people will naturally ask questions.

You’re responding this to a post that shows survey results have determined every single pre-HOME tiering decision.

I'm almost certain the recent Volc outrage was because Volc wasn't the primary, or even visible, concern on the most recent survey. And of the one that did have Volc, it wasn't the highest rated threat of the meta. That, iirc, was Garganacl.

Finally, I would like to ask, why is it that you seem to avoid this statement, not just by the quoted individual, but just in general.

Shifu got "middling support" for a ban -- less than pre-home Garg. Volc wasn't even on the most recent survey. It can't be said that the community played a role in this action.

Please, explain why you claim the community had a role in Volc's banning, when the last few surveys indicate they didn't have that role.

As always, thanks for the transparency.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I think the concerns about the quickbans are valid, and I'm happy to see that the council is genuinely interested in addressing these. What I don't really understand is the aggressive backlash or the insinuation that the council has overstepped in any way. This follows existing precedent and tiering policy. I happen to disagree with the decisions that were made but it's important to keep in mind that the vote was unanimous. The surveys were added as a courtesy and have obviously helped guide tiering policy. They do not shift authority on tiering policy to the user base and they certainly don't forbid the council from making decisions that don't align with the most pressing results from the survey
Honestly I have to point out that the amount of impact individual opinions and contributions have on tiering policy is higher now than it has ever been. So while as I stated I'd be inclined to agree with the sentiment that the quickbans were somewhat ill advised, I don't think the council was out of line. And the rationale for a ban certainly exists. I don't want to totally derail but the threats of violence are totally pathetic. If it upsets you that much, go play VGC where there is no tiering policy.

 

[serperiorr]

sad to see volc go, it was 100% broken as it is every gen but admittedly i am dishonest and spam it anyways.

Anyways, anyone else agree that Lando is kinda mid (Like B+ to A- ish)? As a defensive mon it's kinda outclassed by tusk who has spin, meaning it is way more automatic to add onto a team. Spdef lando is extinct rn since koko doesnt exist and tran is a lot easier to switch into now + Chomp is a better tran switchin and gets spikes anyways. Also spdef (AV) tusk is better than spdef lando imo because of spin + suprise factor. Scarf lando is decent but I'd argue even scarf tusk is better since it gets spin + knock. Unironically the best set I've used was CB with terablast flying, still it wasn't anything amazing. Ground immunity and U-turn are nice but not really giving up that slot when I can just use tusk or another ground.

 

[depressi0n cherry]

You’re responding this to a post that shows survey results have determined every single pre-HOME tiering decision. We ran into an unprecedented release and we are working to improve how to handle that, but community input has and will continue to play a big role.

As a result of the (positive) change in transparency and the precedent set by survey results determining every single pre-Home tiering decision, players have come to expect that surveys/community input will make an impact on every tiering decision. Maybe it's not "required" by Smogon policy, but that has become the expectation because of the increased transparency and requests for feedback.

When you create a precedent that community input matters, then go against that precedent, there's naturally going to be backlash.

I see now that you don't find any merit in the numerous complaints that quickbans against the wishes of most players are problematic, so I'm not gonna argue about it. It's just disappointing to see

 

[Finchinator]

And then completely unrelated to that survey, Volc and Urshifu were banned

I mean I said I wish we did another survey, but I didn’t have time and it was a very awkward frenzy after the release. I pretty much spent every spare minute awake on this shit last week, but I should’ve found a way to budget it all better. I agree there should be more frequent surveys after new releases and I plan on implementing this. Another survey would’ve covered Volc and Shifu better after the prior wave of bans and given input one way or another.

And where are the fruits of those labors? If its a matter of it being too soon, then when is appropriate? A commitment is one thing, but when it goes nowhere, people will naturally ask questions.

As they should. People should (respectfully) hold us accountable.

Please, explain why you claim the community had a role in Volc's banning

I never said this though. I can say that the council had unprecedented public and private support with many posts, but I never said the community dictated Volc’s ban. the community also didn’t determine Regi or Gear, but obviously they’re worse than Volc.

All I said was that the survey results were misrepresented and there perhaps should’ve been another, which I plan to implement in the future. People keep asking me to change the past and I really can’t, but I can improve the future.

 

[Finchinator]

I see now that you don't find any merit in the numerous complaints that quickbans against the wishes of most players are problematic, so I'm not gonna argue about it. It's just disappointing to see

I have said a half dozen times I intend to change policy pertaining to this moving forward. Clearly if there’s a change being implemented, it is because I take issue with something.

It is not my fault you are continuing to go on and on when I have answered you numerous times. The useful life of this interaction is done. I am happy to admit when we can improve our process, and this is one of those times!

 

[MilkyWay]

No hate to the council, but what is voted on in quick bans should be less aggressive in the future.

For example, Light Clay was voted on multiple times and received a fair share of "Ban" votes from council members. Actually quick banning Light Clay at the time of these votes would've been ridiculous considering 1) Plenty of broken threats were still around abusing it, 2) There was no precedent for banning it from OU, and 3) There was no clear community-wide consensus.

In a way, the Light Clay situation is similar to Volcarona, except Volc was actually banned. No one complained about it at the time, but given that council members had been voting in favor of "controversial" quick bans, it was only a matter of time until something like this happened.

At the same time however, I appreciate that the council was listening to people complain about Light Clay in this forum and acted quickly to put it up for a transparent vote because of that.

In the future, council votes should result in immediate suspect tests instead of quick bans when there is no clear community consensus (consensus can objectively be determined from survey results). As other have stated, quick bans should be for egregious mons (Magearna) or when there is otherwise widespread support (Espathra).

 

[Mega Breloom]

sad to see volc go, it was 100% broken as it is every gen but admittedly i am dishonest and spam it anyways.

Anyways, anyone else agree that Lando is kinda mid (Like B+ to A- ish)? As a defensive mon it's kinda outclassed by tusk who has spin, meaning it is way more automatic to add onto a team. Spdef lando is extinct rn since koko doesnt exist and tran is a lot easier to switch into now + Chomp is a better tran switchin and gets spikes anyways. Also spdef (AV) tusk is better than spdef lando imo because of spin + suprise factor. Scarf lando is decent but I'd argue even scarf tusk is better since it gets spin + knock. Unironically the best set I've used was CB with terablast flying, still it wasn't anything amazing. Ground immunity and U-turn are nice but not really giving up that slot when I can just use tusk or another ground.

I would say that it just got better with Urshifu gone since it actually can do a decent job as a physical mons check thanks to the intimidate drop. With Urshifu it was on an awkward spot since it needed a second physical wall as a back up or else Urshifu was going to get a free kill everytime it gets into the field.

 

[Baloor]

me and my friend mark are going to stop playing

 

[Finchinator]

For example, Light Clay was voted on multiple times and received a fair share of "Ban" votes from council members.

Light Clay only really ever got 1 or 2 votes and the community supported it pretty heavily here. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being inclusive right after releases, but again ideally more surveys will help guide us there

 

[AlexIGuessNotFound]

Lately, there has been growing support for a re-suspect of Tera, and I'm somewhat confident another suspect test would end in the banning of Tera and the presumed unbanning of Volcarona and perhaps Espathra. Obviously, the Zamazenta H suspect comes first but I haven't heard anything from the council about another potential suspect. Are there any plans to suspect Tera after the suspect of Zamazenta Hero?

 

[Magcargo]

Seeing as I complained about the process being too slow for Chi-Yu and Ape in the last thread, I'd be a hypocrite if I criticize the council for being too fast on the rules now lol. I have always hated Volc too so def bias there.

There is too much variance in what the players want + the meta is shifting at a rapid pace so opinions become outdated quickly. The council has been doing a solid job at managing the landscape. A few bans I disagree w/ don't change most of the good they've done this gen imo.

 

[Empress Mobile]

As a result of the (positive) change in transparency and the precedent set by survey results determining every single pre-Home tiering decision, players have come to expect that surveys/community input will make an impact on every tiering decision. Maybe it's not "required" by Smogon policy, but that has become the expectation because of the increased transparency and requests for feedback.

When you create a precedent that community input matters, then go against that precedent, there's naturally going to be backlash.

I see now that you don't find any merit in the numerous complaints that quickbans against the wishes of most players are problematic, so I'm not gonna argue about it. It's just disappointing to see

Honestly posts like this really just disincentivize the council from utilizing the survey in the first place. There is absolutely recognized merit in the feedback. That doesn't mean they are going to reverse the decision they made just because there are complaints. What kind of message does that send? "Well, if we want to reverse a quickban, all we have to do is accuse the council of manipulating tournament results and send them death threats". I know there are complaints outside of this, but many of those are really pushing it on the decency metric. There is no precedent that requires the council to implement survey results or even seek them out in the first place.

 

[Archer Kirby]

Honestly I think the best way to accommodate both sides at this point is just more clarity. I think its pretty clear that regardless of the side of the fence that you are on, that this ban is staying put for now.

So the next question is, can we get like, some sort of timeline for a Volc test? Like for example, if we were told something like Zama test first, then Volc test next when during its test its gonna be legal on ladder, I think that would quell at least some of the discontent.

Gives time without Volc allowing us to see the meta without it and then just allows us to use it again during the test.

And also guys, look, I'm not happy about Volc either but the rage is pretty wild. I could not be Finch and sponge all of that lmao, I'm honestly amazed he's even been replying at this point and has defo been pulling the weight in regards to council opinions and views. Let's be grateful for that at least because we'll miss that further down the line.

 

[WildWave]

Until we get a retest later, I have found the solution people:

 

[JHoxha]

i will now run tera blast on lilligant-h and then throw my computer out the window when i miss on turn 2

 

[hidin]

if yall want a meta where volc and shifu aint banned natdex is here for yall, play it so yall cannot whine here anymore

 

[Athyestic]

me and my friend mark are going to stop playing

Wtf, you’re friends with the FE7 Tactician? How the hell do they even have mons in Elibe?

 

[1LDK]

me and my friend mark are going to stop playing

Fun fact: the ratings after that promo plummeted around 2 million people and RAW never recovered since that day

Good thing this is not gonna be the case am I right boys?

Anyway, daily reminder that Sylveon hard counters any special set, and you need +2 to ohko so shitty cc mix sets are also useless. And has a good roll in OHKO

Aside from that, how you guys are checking valiant right now?

 

[Da Pizza Man]

me and my friend mark are going to stop playing