Metagame Suspect Discussion - Baton Pass

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Camden

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This should be in OU lol. BP in LC is nothing more than a gimmick that takes very little effort to be unless you're 100% unprepared for it, which can actually be naturally done by there mere usage of offensive pressure. BP isn't OP here and I'm not entirely sure why so many people want it gone. Input from those ppl would be nice.
The issue is that it's not really a gimmick. It's an actual team archetype, and is proven to be very effective at times. Like mentioned previously, numerous LC players have used BP to great success in tours and on the suspect ladder. Sure, it's not the greatest team type (has really shitty matchups vs more offensive teams), but it's viable.
 
The issue is that it's not really a gimmick. It's an actual team archetype, and is proven to be very effective at times. Like mentioned previously, numerous LC players have used BP to great success in tours and on the suspect ladder. Sure, it's not the greatest team type (has really shitty matchups vs more offensive teams), but it's viable.
I ninjaed you so glad you said something worth bringing up. What tours have bp actually been used in, except room tours which are a mediocre sign of skill as most people fail to take them seriously.
 
Apologies for the brevity of my previous post, those were simply my first impressions and I wanted to get my opinion out there. In this post I will cover legitimate arguments against Baton Pass and why they are nonsensical.

Before I begin this post, I'd like to apologize for my previous actions advocating the nerf of Baton Pass. At that time, I believed that the number of teams that had to rely on luck-based tactics, i.e. going for crits, was enough to make the argument that Baton Pass is uncompetitive. Now, however, I recognize that, if a playstyle is a threat, then the player has a responsibility to prepare for it, packing something like TauntFoo or Whirlwind Hippo in the same way that Porygon and Gastly are run as stops to voltturn.Now that I have that out of the way, allow me to answer the questions in greater detail:

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

The precedent for banning things, for lack of a better term, is only if they are either 1) uncompetitive or 2) overcentralizing. Thus, those who want to ban BP have to prove that it is either one of those things.

Firstly, there is no argument that BP is overcentralizing. It's not. This is a strategy that shows up in roughly one percent of high level battles. The simple fact of the matter is that virtually no one prepares for niche things like this. Even if BP were sleeper OP, it wouldn't be banned because it's not overcentralizing.

The second argument against BP is of course that it's uncompetitive. Frankly, I fail to see how it is uncompetitive in the slightest. Due to the vast number of checks to it, it frankly requires more skill to play than most playstyles. Uncompetitive, as defined by Policy Review, "take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive." There is no way in which Baton Pass removes autonomy any more than any other playstyle. Against Baton Pass, I may paint myself into a corner and have to go for critical hits to break the chain, one might argue, but if one is making this argument, then there is literally never any autonomy in Pokemon since users are obligated to make their best plaly 100% of the time. Nothing a Baton Pass team can do removes autonomy; I'm not going into further detail because I'm tired at the moment, but in a tl;dr: Baton Pass ≠ broken.


2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

No. Baton Pass is, in my experience, a fairly euphoric playstyle to use for the BP user, and really there is nothing "not fun" against playing Baton Pass either- I find it extremely interesting to play against other Baton Pass teams because it requires me to think a good deal about what both my and my opponent's best plays are and playing around that. I can't speak for anyone else, but Baton Pass is fun to play on both ends in my opinion.


3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Until multiple people come forward and say that they were deterred from playing Little Cup, the accepted answer should be that no, Baton Pass is not deterring individuals from playing Little Cup. There's literally no way to prove this except through having users state whether or not they were deterred from the metagame specifically by BP being not fun.


4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

We are banning a completely viable and unbroken playstyle. I've already established that Baton Pass isn't broken, and if we do ban this then we're literally just restricting the metagame for no reason. There's a reason that we didn't just quickban Baton Pass after OU banned it, and that's because it's not broken in LC. By banning Baton Pass, we're limiting two distinct playstyles: Torchpass, which is a completely viable playstyle, and FullPass, which is ranked at E in the team archetypes viability ranking thread for a reason. Seriously, I have no idea why people voted for a BP ban, but it's completely nonsensical that people want to ban an E rank strategy.
 
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I'd
The issue is that it's not really a gimmick. It's an actual team archetype, and is proven to be very effective at times. Like mentioned previously, numerous LC players have used BP to great success in tours and on the suspect ladder. Sure, it's not the greatest team type (has really shitty matchups vs more offensive teams), but it's viable.
The reason some players did well with it is because these teams popped out of nowhere. Has bp been successful in LCPL? It hasn't. Has it even been around long enough for people to understand how to beat it? Hardly.
 

Camden

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I ninjaed you so glad you said something worth bringing up. What tours have bp actually been used in, except room tours which are a mediocre sign of skill as most people fail to take them seriously.
I'll give you that one, it's mostly room tours I see it in, but what I look out for in room tours are individual match-ups within the tours. Yea, the tour on a whole doesn't matter, but when I see 2 skilled players putting a strong effort in a good match, I use that as evidence.
 

Holiday

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kingmidas BP is definitely a gimmick lol. It isn't a successful strategy against well made teams, and more or less wins through absurd means.
I wouldn't agree with this. Well made BP chains (and the users behind them) can go toe to toe with good teams. QuickPass also isn't really a gimmick since boosting and passing isn't something absurd.
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Baton Pass is a decent tactic in Little Cup but is by no means unmanageable for any style of play. Offense is the most common playstyle in Little Cup and Pawniard + Fletchling by themselves absolutely murder full Baton Pass teams, not to mention that Taunt is now the most common fourth move on Mienfoo, the Pokemon which has the highest usage in the metagame.

In short, the idea of Baton Pass in LC being broken is preposterous and is kept in check by some of the most commonly used threats in the game, threats that would be common whether Baton Pass existed or not. The fact this is even being suspected is hilarious.
 
I wouldn't agree with this. Well made BP chains (and the users behind them) can go toe to toe with good teams. QuickPass also isn't really a gimmick since boosting and passing isn't something absurd.
I said nothing about quickpassing being a gimmick. I'm talking about chains. well made BP teams are still gonna fail versus aforementioned threats. If such a strategy can't handle common mons, it ought to be consisted a gimmick, no different than FEAR mons and company.
 

leremyju

Banned deucer.
Who cares Pokemon is a shit game anyways

Baton pass more like Baton pASS
1) Is Baton Pass broken?
No. Taunt/Encore/Phazing are excellent ways to slow it down. Another strategy is to Shell Smash or Dragon Dance vs. the obvious Torchic lead. This forces them to either sac Torchic (haha no) or double protect. Now it becomes a 1/3 chance to get +2 while you can still Shell Smash again. This only a single example of how you can deal with Baton Pass. A well built Baton Pass team can pose a threat but it is neccessary for players to make good plays in any game, regardless of whether the opponent is using Baton Pass.
2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
Kinda, I don't like facing it but it isn't hard to beat.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Not anyone experienced, we probably came here to play because other tiers or dumb, we wanna use small pokemon, or they're cute af.
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?
Limiting the number of Pokemon with BP to 2 or 3.

Lol look at how short this post is why are we even suspecting this how about arguing on Shadow Tag/Arena Trap's uncompetitiveness guys.
 

Berks

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1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Uhm, no, not really. If Natu's Magic Bounce + BP was legal, then maybe, just maybe, yes. Hwever, that is not the case. As such, many viable things can stop a large majority of BP teams (looking at lordBP Infamy here).

To be fair though, most of the battles i've won against better players (room tours, private challenges, random ladder matchups) came from BP.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

This is the clincher for me. Playing against full BP can be super incredibly disheartening or super incredibly boring. Either you win in eight turns by setting up, or you lose in 30 by being set up on. Not being fun is especially deterrent to newer players looking to enter the tier, as they are generally ill prepared to handle it. As many have stated, lead matchup plays 99.9% of the game for you; only a chance crit could save you in the off chance you led incorrectly. I'm convinced that the current full BP makes LC not fun whenever it's encountered.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Here's my main point. I've played pretty extensively with BP. It's how I developed my current anti-Cottonee bias. Hell, one time I even tried to ladder using solely BP on my alt B&PBerkeley. If you look up my stats, they weren't super great. Team was suboptimal, player was suboptimaler, but my main thing is this: the number of people I met on the low ladder who said something to the extent of "oh there's no bp clause here? lame" was staggeringly large. These people would then be turned away from LC. Perhaps it is the stigma that OU set with its truly broken BP, but the general scrub consensus seems to be that we should have some sort of thing in place to control bp, even if it isn't truly broken. Frankly put, 2 alone is deterring people.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

I'd suggest a 4 BPmon limit; that way, BP (which, to be honest, isn't that broken) retains viability while still allowing it to function. Heck, only having 4 BP mons could actually lead to innovation on BP teams. I feel like that would be a great way to make LC more fun while still retaining something which shouldn't have to leave completely.

Have some replays:

vs. Mambo
crits trash worlds http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-218095144
WoW hax, Cotton, and setup Tirt trash worlds http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-218095948
subs give BP a hard time [url]http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-218098086[/URL]
 
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While baton pass isn't broken (common ways to beat, ie sd fletch, taunt foo, as well as as encore and phasing have been mentions), full baton pass chains are an uncompetitive nuisance and they make the tier a lot less fun to play, even if they are relatively uncommon (or were uncommon untill these discussions happened, as now its seeing more usage). I have no problem with quick pass torchic teams, and those are by no means gimmicky. However, full bp teams dont bring anything positive to this meta, and i think itd be better off with some sort of nerf on baton pass. (either limit baton pass to 1 mon on a team, or 2 or 3, so as to not get rid of the quick pass torchic style teams). This would stop these uncompetitive and annoying teams from existing, but wouldnt stop people form wanting to use a torchic passing speed to their physical sweeper
tl dr: full baton pass is annoying, limit how many mons can use it on a team
 
While baton pass isn't broken (common ways to beat, ie sd fletch, taunt foo, as well as as encore and phasing have been mentions), full baton pass chains are an uncompetitive nuisance and they make the tier a lot less fun to play, even if they are relatively uncommon (or were uncommon untill these discussions happened, as now its seeing more usage). I have no problem with quick pass torchic teams, and those are by no means gimmicky. However, full bp teams dont bring anything positive to this meta, and i think itd be better off with some sort of nerf on baton pass. (either limit baton pass to 1 mon on a team, or 2 or 3, so as to not get rid of the quick pass torchic style teams). This would stop these uncompetitive and annoying teams from existing, but wouldnt stop people form wanting to use a torchic passing speed to their physical sweeper
I mean, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be banned. I understand that Baton Pass can be annoying, but there's nothing inherently broken about it, so I am opposed to any sort of nerf to the strategy.
 

gali

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Writing posts sucks.

Anyway, I think Levi's post hit the nail on the head - it explains perfectly why I think Baton Pass is deserving of a nerf. A lot of the stuff has been addressed in the metagame discussion thread, so I don't feel like reposting that either. Basically, the reason I think Baton Pass is deserving of a nerf is twofold: 1) If you make any mistake at all vs it, you lose, and 2) the game is determined 99% of the time by the lead matchup. These two elements imo make full Baton Pass uncompetitive and stupid, to quote myself. I'll post more in the morning, but I've had a long day and I want to get some sleep.
 
In my opinion I don't believe baton pass to be broken, firstly with torchic being the bread and butter of BP teams it becomes fairly obvious what your opponent is trying to do first thing in team preview. From what I've seen full baton pass chains are difficult to actually pull off and require skill to use effectively and from my experiences aren't very common on the ladder. It can be dealt with with strong priority attackers such as Fletching and Pawniard's sucker punches, in addition to taunting and phazing.
 
Writing posts sucks.

Anyway, I think Levi's post hit the nail on the head - it explains perfectly why I think Baton Pass is deserving of a nerf. A lot of the stuff has been addressed in the metagame discussion thread, so I don't feel like reposting that either. Basically, the reason I think Baton Pass is deserving of a nerf is twofold: 1) If you make any mistake at all vs it, you lose, and 2) the game is determined 99% of the time by the lead matchup. These two elements imo make full Baton Pass uncompetitive and stupid, to quote myself. I'll post more in the morning, but I've had a long day and I want to get some sleep.
I don't see how making one mistake would throw you the game. Baton Pass is fairly predictable; as long as you don't make blatantly dumb plays throughout the course of the match, assuming you have ways to answer it, like a Taunt user or a phaser, you shouldn't be in a bad position. (before any one calls that over centralizing, it's perfectly healthy to carry a check to a play style)

I agree that match up is definitely a factor in facing Baton Pass, as long as you have the correct ways to combat it, and don't play dumb, you should be fine.
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Full Baton Pass is honestly not hard to handle if you know what you're doing. You don't even need luck to win, just common sense. You can tell from Team Preview if your opponent is using a full Baton Pass team or not, and Torchic by itself paired with a physical powerhouse such as Cranidos or Cubone is another red flag that any aware player should recognize and be able to easily win against. The only time I have ever flat out lost to a full Baton Pass team was back when Meditite and Gligar were legal, and the reason I lost was not because of Baton Pass itself but because the receivers were broken, evidenced by the fact that they are no longer usable.

I'd really like to see replays of Baton Pass itself getting over against a decent player. Pawniard and Mienfoo (as stated before has Taunt as its most commonly used fourth move) are S-rank for crying out loud and full Baton Pass has no Flying resists on top of that.


Edit: About this apparently being matchup-based from turn 1 or whatever, if the opponent is clearly running Baton Pass and you consciously choose to give the opponent free turns and free boosts/Substitutes by leading with your hazard layer or something, you deserve to lose for making what is obviously the wrong choice at the beginning. If it is said that stall has trouble against full Baton Pass, it's because of Substitute, not Baton Pass itself. The inability to Thunder Wave and Leech Seed the opposing team to mess up their chain is what the problem is there, and I don't think anyone wants to ban or complex ban Substitute.
 
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i love how people are calling baton pass a gimmick when aerow got reqs with that alone. calling it a gimmick is just sheer ignorance.
also, match ups influece literally any game stop acting like theres something different about match ups vs bp please.
however bri i have won with baton pass against quality players with better matchups. earlier today aerow and i were testing and i beat her ziggy team with bp, cant link it bc im on mobile tho. bp can beat its checks ad counters, but you have to play really well to do so.
 

leremyju

Banned deucer.
I am a decent player (i hope) and lost to it. Honestly I should have led better but basically I forced a speed tie and a double protect, and he got the double protect. Had he not won that, I won the game from there. I don't have the replay but I was pretty dissapointed when I lost because it was a game I should have won. Baton Pass forces you to win several 50/50's and play basically a perfect game. Something I have not yet seen is baton pass teams leading something not Torchic that beats the opposing team's baton pass beater or whatever you wanna call it.

I think that Baton Pass makes you think more about your plays and how to beat it, but you should be thinking in any game.
 
1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Baton Pass isn't "broken" but it's annoying as shit. TBH I've never thought of it as broken but I've definitely had matches against it where I've kicked myself for not bringing a proper check.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

It is extremely not fun to play against. If you get a poor matchup, you either end up forfeiting in the first few turns or sit there and watch yourself lose. However if you have a great matchup you get to laugh in their face. i.e matchup based.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Not necessarily. It isn't very common but when it is used it is pretty annoying to face especially if your isn't prepared for it (even though most teams are) or if you make a mistake early game and get screwed over the rest of the match. However if a newer player fought a full BP team they might get discouraged or frustrated and not want to play LC because such teams are allowed.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

If we "ban" baton pass, we are implementing a baton pass clause. In other tiers, such as OU, such a clause exists and limits one's team from containing only one baton pass user. For example, if you have have Baton Pass on Mienfoo, that is the only user of Baton Pass you can have on your team. However I feel like BP is a lot more balanced in LC, so a 2-mon limit would probably still be good, since it stops full BP teams but allows small chains.
 
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reserved for a long, long post later

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
No. Baton Pass in LC is definitely not broken. LC doesn't have many good users of BP, unlike the upper tiers. We have many users of Taunt, Roar, Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, and etc. that are frequently used. The combination of these two make BP a very niche strategy and few players succeed in it. When you don't have a counter or check to BP, it can seem broken, but that's for every pokemon in the meta. You need a counter for Fletch, Foo, and Zig. You just need one more, and many of the above moves are good to carry anyways.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
Probably not. Veteran players can easily wreck BP and win, or lose and just sigh once and move on. However, new players might find it hard and not fun. It's really up to your experience and how you can deal with BP.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
This is more debatable. For skilled and veteran players of LC, or players who have a good understanding of the meta, BP can be easily dealt with Taunt, Whirlwind, Roar, etc. However, players new to LC can easily be deterred because BP can be easily seen as broken. Personally speaking, many of my friends are completely turned off of LC because of BP and other such tactics that aren't common in the upper tiers. I'm not saying that we should appeal to new players; I'm just saying that BP can be a deterrence to new players.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?
Nerf it to 2~3 mons, since quickpass can be easily dealt with, and isn't much of a deterrence for new players.
 
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blinkie

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
1) Is Baton Pass broken?
From my experience, it definitely was not. As most others have said before me, you can easily know what to expect straight from team preview. Then its just a matter of leading with the right mon, and using the right moves. For example, vs Torchic you lead with Scarf Drilbur, etc. If you use Stall, Hippo is usually a staple so you always can just spam Whirlwind. Not to mention a lot of teams carry Taunt, which basically autowins from the start. So, IMO it is not broken. It is your own fault if you let the BP user get up to +6 in everything, and even then you can still get lucky with crits etc...
2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
No, it is usually not too hard to beat, and its not like BP in OU where it was almost down to a formula, due to the metagame being pretty offensive in LC BP is not too hard to beat. Not to mention that BP is not used much, for example some broken mons like Mega Kangaskhan were on every team in OU etc, that is not fun, but when people know BP is no good and barely even use it, it really doesn't make a difference on the meta.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
No, I went into LC thinking it was all offense, I didn't even know people actually used BP here. I guess maybe for a totally new battler it may not be fun to get run over by a insanely boosted Munna, but as a new battler I learned a lot from the first battle I had with BP and was prepared for it the second time, when I basically autowon against the same person I played the first time. So nope, I would definitely not quit cause BP. Although maybe if you were new from say OU and didn't really know how to play too well, you would think BP in LC is like pre-nerf OU, but after playing a while its obvious it is nowhere near the level of OU BP.
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?
Not really sure about this, as I have heard that Torchic quickpass to stuff like Cubone is actually the more dangerous form of BP. However, as I never saw it once on the ladder, and it still seems not too hard to stop, I don't want a complex ban cause they are just dumb in general.
So yeah probably just limit to 3 or 4 mons.
 
<snib>

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

This is the clincher for me. Playing against full BP can be super incredibly disheartening or super incredibly boring. Either you win in eight turns by setting up, or you lose in 30 by being set up on. Not being fun is especially deterrent to newer players looking to enter the tier, as they are generally ill prepared to handle it. As many have stated, lead matchup plays 99.9% of the game for you; only a chance crit could save you in the off chance you led incorrectly. I'm convinced that the current full BP makes LC not fun whenever it's encountered.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Here's my main point. I've played pretty extensively with BP. It's how I developed my current anti-Cottonee bias. Hell, one time I even tried to ladder using solely BP on my alt B&PBerkeley. If you look up my stats, they weren't super great. Team was suboptimal, player was suboptimaler, but my main thing is this: the number of people I met on the low ladder who said something to the extent of "oh there's no bp clause here? lame" was staggeringly large. These people would then be turned away from LC. Perhaps it is the stigma that OU set with its truly broken BP, but the general scrub consensus seems to be that we should have some sort of thing in place to control bp, even if it isn't truly broken. Frankly put, 2 alone is deterring people.

<snib>
For the most part, I agree with the parts I didn't snip, but this part is what I don't want people to think. People continue to say that match up basically decides the game, but realistically, playing well and having the proper weapons to take on a Baton Pass team is the biggest factor in the match's outcome. A single Taunt user, a Spike stacker, a powerful wallbreaker that doesn't need boosts (Gastly, Houndour etc.) are only just a few things that are helpful in beating Baton Pass. People keep saying that match up is so important, but that is blatantly false.

Another thing is, that Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun doesn't really matter. The question is if it's uncompetitive and if that in itself deters people from playing the tier. Personally, saying that the tier isn't fun because of a decent strategy is simply bizarre. Any decent team, if played correctly, should be able to beat Baton Pass without the influence of luck (decent meaning that it's a solid team, and carries answers to Baton Pass, which shouldn't be a problem at all). As you say, facing Baton Pass is disheartening and boring, but personally, knowing that Baton Pass is mediocre and basicay a free win, I don't really mind much. Either way, that's not a reason to nerf it.

(i know u didn't wanna ban it, but these are some prime examples on what you shouldn't think)
 
Baton Pass:
Baton Pass in LC is most certainly not overly difficult to deal with; I don't think anybody is genuinely considering that. In fact, it's arguably not even that good; if you played a large number of games with a Baton Pass chain and then a large number of games with a team that is considered "standard", you would probably be able to win significantly more games with the standard team. If the opposing team packs Cottonee or Tauntfoo or Onix or Whirlwind variants of Hippo/lax, of course it's still possible to win, but unless you have one of the very specific Pokemon to beat said threat, you'll be fighting a very, very uphill battle. Furthermore, all of these are viable choices, and most teams can afford to fit at least one of them (offensively leaning teams can use Cottonee or Tauntfoo, and defensively leaning teams can run a phazer).

The issue here arises if you lack one of those four Pokemon, which isn't all that unreasonable; there are a lot of things Mienfoo wants to do with its fourth slot, or you might want to use a different Fighting-type. The other three Pokemon are somewhat difficult to fit onto the average team due to their very noticeable drawbacks; Cottonee's lack of reliable recovery and exploitable double weakness often renders it a shaky check to many threats that it's supposed to beat despite its overall excellent utility, Onix is weak, specially frail, is easily worn down, can really only do a few things that may not have much of an impact in the overall match, and simply isn't very good, and Whirlwind Hippopotas/Munchlax are a bit too slow and defensive to be able to fit onto teams that appreciate momentum. If you also lack something from a larger and more versatile pool of threats that is able to force a positive match-up against specific Pokemon that Baton Pass chains often lead with, then you're usually pretty much done for. Admittedly, this is a less reasonable situation now that Baton Pass has been established as a legitimate threat.

Examples of Pokemon that are able to beat certain Baton Pass leads but not others include Chinchou, which can severely threaten Torchic but struggles against Gothita, Shellder, who can Rock Blast Torchic but is taken out by Gothita, and Houndour, who traps Gothita but is Substitute bait for Torchic. In the case that the team facing Baton Pass runs one of these, turn one becomes a risky coinflip. If the Baton Pass user picks an unfavourable wrong lead, then a great deal of momentum is lost, the Baton Pass user might lose a key team member, and the chain will probably fall apart without it. However, if the Baton Pass user picks correctly, then the Baton Pass user gains a very large advantage over the opponent from the get-go, be it an important check being picked off or a free Substitute being set up, which will usually snowball into a situation where the Baton Pass chain cannot be stopped. Essentially, the game is decided on turn one, and that's neither competitive nor very fun.

The main difference between having to pack a check for Baton Pass chains and having to pack a check for other archetypes like Zigzagoon offense or Birdspam is that even if you do not have a dedicated check to Zigzagoon offense or Birdspam, you can still pull off a clean win by sufficiently pressuring the opponent's team and baiting out and removing their win conditions. On the other hand, if you lack a Baton Pass check and you're up against a Baton Pass chain, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose, bar factors that are irrelevant to decisions made by the players. Being forced to rely on hax or the Baton Pass user's misplays isn't at all a valid argument because it's completely out of the player's control, and frankly, an opponent who is unable to make the incredibly basic plays that Baton Pass requires to be effective in such a scenario will probably lose regardless of the team used. Because of how straight-forward using Baton Pass or fishing for hax is, both sides are more or less reduced to auto-pilot; little to no strategy is involved.

The best way to nerf Baton Pass would probably be just to limit the number of Baton Pass users per team to two or three. By preventing chains from running all of the tools they need to get around important impediments to the Stored Power sweep, the methods available to play around Baton Pass throughout the match increases dramatically, which makes fitting several effective Baton Pass checks onto a team much easier to do. Furthermore, because of the decrease in available stat passers on the team, Stored Power becomes less potent, turning the act of actually playing around the chain into a genuine possibility. This way, the much more legitimate Quickpass teams, where Torchic merely acts as a solid offensive support Pokemon, will still be available.

tl;dr Baton Pass deserves a nerf, not because it's too good, but because it has the tendency to decide the outcome of games too early for strategy to come into play, even against competent teams.
44 Pokemon in LC have access to Taunt, Encore, or Whirlwind and are currently ranked C- or higher in the viability rankings. Onix, Cottonee, Mienfoo, Hippopotas, and Munchlax are not the only options. Yes, it's not common to see these moves on many of these Pokemon, but that doesn't mean its bad. During LC Open I ran Taunt Fletchling because I was weak to smashers, I know Sweep has used Taunt Abra before, and it's actually standard on less used Pokemon like Purrloin or Shelmet to run one of these moves. There are legitimate reasons to use Taunt, Encore or Whirlwind outside of beating Baton Pass. There are also plenty of set up Pokemon that may easily run through a BP team it's ridiculous. Some may be crippled by WoW Torchic, but not all and BP does not have have tools to deal with many of them. Sometimes even a strong wallbreaker is sufficient to break through Baton Pass.

Your analogy to Zigzagoon teams doesn't exactly work. Yes you can beat Zigzagoon teams without a dedicated counter, but the only way to do this is to build a team that either has no Pokemon that Zigzagoon can set up on, relies on soft checks, or you just play much better than your opponent. In the same way, you can structure your team to deal with Baton Pass. Only difference here is that you can pick exactly which Pokemon you want to check Baton Pass and lead it against anything. You don't need to build your entire team with the threat in mind, you just need one Pokemon. If you fail to actually consider Baton Pass at all in teambuilding and somehow build a team that doesn't incorporate a single user of Taunt, Encore, or Whirlwind, doesn't have an appropriate set-up Pokemon, doesn't have an appropriate wallbreaker, AND you lead the wrong Pokemon, why should you win? The only reason Baton Pass is ever successful is because people are not prepared for it. It needs to be considered at least somewhat when teambuilding and that's something that applies to all strategies. There is no need to nerf something that is so easily accounted for and has a terrible match up against any team that has done so.
 
1) Is Baton Pass broken?
Baton Pass definitely isn't broken, as there's always Taunt/Encore, phazing, etc. There are also a lot less pokemon for BP teams that can effectively block others from stopping the BP chain, and thus a full BP team usually comes down to stupid 50/50s. It doesn't restrict teambuilding too much, as most teams already carry some form of Taunt/Encore/Status/Phazing.
2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
BP is pretty much a gimmick, but it really makes it unfun for both the user and the opponent, as most of the time it comes down to chance, rather than skill. However, it isn't too often seen on the ladder, so as a whole, it doesn't make Little Cup unfun.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Uh no. It's not a super dominant strategy, and it doesn't take away from the fun of regular LC

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?
If we do nerf BP, then we should probably nerf it to only having 1-2 pokemon able to use Baton Pass, thus breaking those full Baton Pass teams, but still allowing it to be used, maybe like Quickpass or something
 
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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Quick question. Can people that aren't on the council list nomination thing post here?
 
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