Supreme Court's decision on Obamacare

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At least here in Missouri, police, fire, and car insurance are not mandatory. If you choose to not pay the EMT tax they will literally, and I do mean literally, stand there with their firetruck parked on your lawn and drink beer while your house burns. As for car insurance, its mandatory if you drive a car, but the government doesn't force anyone to buy or drive a car.

I actually do think this could be a good thing, coverning poor people is definitely a good thing, but I don't like the idea of the government forcing people to buy any product. In fact, the Supreme Court ruled it wasn't "forcing citizens to buy a product, but rather a tax", but that's just a line of crap. It would be exactly as if they forced those of you here on this site who don't own cars to purchase car insurance. Tax my butt. Taxes go to the government. The revenue here goes to private companies. This looks to me, and many other people, like the government forcing its citizens to buy products they may not need. Beyond that, if a product is mandatory the companies that sell it can charge whatever they want. You've got to buy it.
this is a good post. people need to realize that people dying of preventable illnesses, like houses burning down, is never a good thing.

the new bill seems like a bizarre attempt to compromise between the philanthropic "health care for everyone" side and the capitalist "no new government taxes ever" side.

still, baby steps.

>conservatives against obamacare health policy
>threaten to move to canada
>...
>...
it kind of astounded me how popular this sentiment was on twitter. imagine the shock they're in for when they realize that canada's president is black too. :evan:
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
it kind of astounded me how popular this sentiment was on twitter. imagine the shock they're in for when they realize that canada's president is black too. :evan:
you were surprised by stupidity on twitter? clearly you need to get around the internet more.

E: DM i'm confused. On the one hand you advocate the single-payer system but on the other hand you acknowledge that the commerce clause has been extrapolated to hell and back, how do you reconcile these views? Constitutional amendment? Scrapping the constitution? Under a conservative interpretation of the commerce clause (which is what it appears you adopt, correct me if wrong) there's no way as of current to justify a single-payer system. How would you like to see one implemented then?
 

DM

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E: DM i'm confused. On the one hand you advocate the single-payer system but on the other hand you acknowledge that the commerce clause has been extrapolated to hell and back, how do you reconcile these views? Constitutional amendment? Scrapping the constitution? Under a conservative interpretation of the commerce clause (which is what it appears you adopt, correct me if wrong) there's no way as of current to justify a single-payer system. How would you like to see one implemented then?
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I am either for or against Obamacare, I didn't intend to do so. I'm really just here commenting on the SCOTUS decision as a legally-trained observer.
 
I'm so glad they put that in there. There's no way they're going to abuse the fact that people must buy their product now.

and what the heck does 6 have to do with anything is this list for real??
1. Just wondering how else they can abuse the fact. I don't really see any other way beyond rate increases (in case you didn't realize there's more than one insurance company).

2. Number 6 provides Americans with the means to make informed choices when it comes to what they put in their body. Helps fight obesity which is a prime offender of increased healthcare costs. It obviously isn't a magic bullet - it just helps.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I am either for or against Obamacare, I didn't intend to do so. I'm really just here commenting on the SCOTUS decision as a legally-trained observer.
Mm, ok. I was thrown off by your comment of "yup, Trax, baby steps," i guess.

1. Just wondering how else they can abuse the fact. I don't really see any other way beyond rate increases (in case you didn't realize there's more than one insurance company).
Competition doesn't necessarily mean that prices will remain low. While it's certainly a helpful factor in doing so, equally important is the option not to purchase. Knowing that if their product is too high priced, a customer would rather go without is what keeps prices low - you need customers, after all, to first consider buying the product before they decide who to buy /from/. Without the need to attract customers, insurance companies are much more free to exploit them - and without the option to quit paying if prices get too high, getting robbed is a real possibility. Just look a cigarette companies for an example of this in action.
 
Without the need to attract customers, insurance companies are much more free to exploit them - and without the option to quit paying if prices get too high, getting robbed is a real possibility. Just look a cigarette companies for an example of this in action.
But when insurance prices rise to a price that you cannot afford in your budget, you are eligible for government care without paying a tax penalty.
 
As for car insurance, its mandatory if you drive a car, but the government doesn't force anyone to buy or drive a car.
Here's the thing; you have an option to buy a car or not, and if you choose not to, you don't have to buy car insurance. You don't have the option to choose not to have a body.
 
He didn't vote liberally, that was the most brilliant conservative move I've seen from the supreme court since United States v. Lopez.

Seriously, proponents of this thing have no idea what they're in for now.
 
First, I want to make the disclaimer that I do not follow politics much, so do not take my opinions on the ObamaCare bill too seriously.

Anyway, my main concern with the bill is how it will impact the small businesses that are still in the process of recovering from the recent recession. Since ObamaCare now requires all businesses to provide health insurance to their employees - at least from my understanding - it may force the smaller ones who run the biggest risk of shutting down to lay off anywhere from two to four employees in order to save money and be able to offer the insurance to everyone else. Though I don't know the exact figure, I've heard the tax for businesses that don't provide health insurance by 2014 is quite steep. If indeed it is, it would make sense for the small business to opt to lay off some of its employees to avoid paying the tax. Multiply the number of employees laid off by each business by the total number that are financially struggling and you could face an ever bigger problem with unemployment.

For the record, I currently do not support universal health care, which ObamaCare is laying down the foundation for, if only because the government or its citizens - it doesn't matter who because the government gets its money from its citizens - cannot afford to pay for it. I would rather that the country focus on cutting down its debt before it tries to take on such financial risks as this.

* If it hasn't been made evident, I am practical by nature and thus view idealistic pursuits such as ObamaCare with skepticism.
 

VKCA

(Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)
2. Number 6 provides Americans with the means to make informed choices when it comes to what they put in their body. Helps fight obesity which is a prime offender of increased healthcare costs. It obviously isn't a magic bullet - it just helps.
I could be completely wrong on this, but hasn't this plan backfired everywhere in america? Particularly poor districts? Like, people start buying as many calories as they can as cheaply as they can?
(also this might be just a bit silly, but maybe the government could ensure that people actually know what a calorie is, or maybe the education system?)

Anyway, my main concern with the bill is how it will impact the small businesses that are still in the process of recovering from the recent recession. Since ObamaCare now requires all businesses to provide health insurance to their employees - at least from my understanding - it may force the smaller ones who run the biggest risk of shutting down to lay off anywhere from two to four employees in order to save money and be able to offer the insurance to everyone else. Though I don't know the exact figure, I've heard the tax for businesses that don't provide health insurance by 2014 is quite steep. If indeed it is, it would make sense for the small business to opt to lay off some of its employees to avoid paying the tax. Multiply the number of employees laid off by each business by the total number that are financially struggling and you could face an ever bigger problem with unemployment.
http://thanksobamacare.org/index.php?id=12
There's going to be a tax credit to small businesses, to help them deal with this stuff. Not that I'm saying it will completely fix everything, but this is something that the government is thinking about.

For the record, I currently do not support universal health care, which ObamaCare is laying down the foundation for, if only because the government or its citizens - it doesn't matter who because the government gets its money from its citizens - cannot afford to pay for it. I would rather that the country focus on cutting down its debt before it tries to take on such financial risks as this.
Is something like this that expensive? The other good countries of the world can afford it, I guess they're not several trillion dollars in debt though.
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
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Taxes go to the government. The revenue here goes to private companies. This looks to me, and many other people, like the government forcing its citizens to buy products they may not need. Beyond that, if a product is mandatory the companies that sell it can charge whatever they want. You've got to buy it.
EXACTLY. This is reason #1 why I hate this ruling on the Affordable Care Act. Say hello to privitized profits on public utilities. You don't have to have a Poland Spring(tm) water line directly into your house, but you still have to pay if you don't! It's a new water tax! Holy shit these companies must be salivating over these new opportunities.

Health should never be a money issue in a civilized society.

For the record, I currently do not support universal health care, which ObamaCare is laying down the foundation for, if only because the government or its citizens - it doesn't matter who because the government gets its money from its citizens - cannot afford to pay for it. I would rather that the country focus on cutting down its debt before it tries to take on such financial risks as this.
The Affordable Care Act is laying the foundation for universal health care...by forcing people to buy private insurance with their own money? How does that make sense?

And you're right that the debt should be cut. The bill will save us billions of dollars every year, which is huge considering we spend more on health care than any other nation yet we get nowhere near the level of quality *on average*.

(also this might be just a bit silly, but maybe the government could ensure that people actually know what a calorie is, or maybe the education system?)
There's plenty of education available already. I think the public education system has bigger responsibilities at the moment, like why kids can't do math in an economy where you need a college education to get an entry level position.
 

DM

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Mm, ok. I was thrown off by your comment of "yup, Trax, baby steps," i guess.
Ah, right, I forgot I made that comment. Most of the thinking behind that comment was "that is the only way anything gets done in this country, we'll take what we can get."

He didn't vote liberally, that was the most brilliant conservative move I've seen from the supreme court since United States v. Lopez.
I wouldn't call Lopez a brilliant move by any stretch of the imagination. Guns in school zones have absolutely no rational relation to interstate commerce. Congress went too far in that case, and the Court rightfully stepped in and said "now hold the fuck UP a second."
 
The Affordable Care Act is laying the foundation for universal health care...by forcing people to buy private insurance with their own money? How does that make sense?
My point was that I wouldn't be surprised if the government took control of health insurance away from private companies in the future. It would be easier to do if everyone already had insurance.
 
That makes no sense.
I don't see why it doesn't. Let everyone get settled in with their insurance plans first. If the government buys out the private companies and keeps the same plans in effect, less people are likely to complain about the change in who is in control.

But anyway, perhaps I see things differently, so I won't touch upon the subject any more.
 
I don't see why it doesn't. Let everyone get settled in with their insurance plans first. If the government buys out the private companies and keeps the same plans in effect, less people are likely to complain about the change in who is in control.

But anyway, perhaps I see things differently, so I won't touch upon the subject any more.
Due to the fact that we already have a privatized health care system established, it is, in my own opinion, better to utilize what we have through implementing strict regulations and creating a public option than to blow up an age old industry. It takes a lot of stress from the government's budget. The public option creates a safety net that the consumers can fall upon.
 

San_Pellegrino

the eternal dreamer
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the problem is that the poor get the absolute worst of the deal by paying for services that they could otherwise use the emergency room for, while the rich don't get their money's worth from the HMO style plan. Healthcare is expensive - and making it a government provision is a sad attempt at equalizing American lives.
 
One thing that I do like about this bill if anything else is that I can stay on my parents' insurance plan until I'm 26, or so I've heard.
 
that article affirms my point, thank you
You said that the emergency healthcare system was enough to compensate for the coverage disparity among the poor and this article shows that is far from the truth so I'm confused as to why I affirmed your point. Under the new legislation, the poor are covered by the US's Medicaid program. If I affirmed your point that government run healthcare is inefficient, then I don't agree. Without the emergency room, the poor would have absolutely no chance in receiving any healthcare they need under any circumstance and would die before owing anyone anything. Although it is very badly thought out, it is much better than having nothing in place at all. The healthcare reform seeks to fix the problems the currently unregulated system suffers from. I am still wondering as to why Republicans think this is "bad law" beyond the mandate and other rebuked statements they have made in the past, though. I wish they would bring their legitimate concerns to light so they can be discussed instead of just saying no to everything without real reason besides "not wanting it".
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Perhaps your problem is looking to an online pokemon community for substantive debates and deep political knowledge. I, personally, have already engaged in a lengthy, educated debate about the merits and pitfalls of PPACA but have no desire whatsoever to do so in a community such as this one.
 
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