Sun Team [First RMT]

[Frickett]

​

Okay so I've been playing around with LC quite a bit since early 6th gen and it's really grown on me, becoming the tier that I've had the most enjoyment with. The metagame is hella fun, much better than I first expected it to be, and using cutemons is it's own reward in itself. So far I've had a lot of success with the team (getting into the high 1400s and such), but obviously being a sun team there'll always be certain things that'll give me trouble, and working around that can be difficult.

@ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Nature: Bold
EVs: 132HP / 196Def / 36SpA / 76SpD
-Flamethrower
-Energy Ball
-Will-O-Wisp
-Confuse Ray​

Obviously with it being a sun team there's going to be Vulpix so not much needs to be said about it. I've gone for a defensive set instead of an offensive one to make sure it can take a hit for whenever I plan to use it for anything other than making it sunny, and with drought the flamethrower would be doing decent damage regardless. Flamethrower over Fire Blast because if I'm in a situation where I'm using Vulpix then the accuracy is going to be more important than damage output. Energy Ball is just for coverage (if only it got Solar Beam), realistically though it doesn't get used but I feel as though it's needed. Originally I was using Substitute but felt that it wasn't very useful on a defensive build as it can take a hit already; making use of Substitute would also require some devotion to keeping Vulpix in play more frequently, which just eats up the amount of turns that Bellsprout/Bulbasaur have to get some kills.

@ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Nature: Timid
EVs: 76Def / 196SpA / 36SpD / 196Spe
-Solar Beam
-Sludge Bomb
-Weather Ball
-Sleep Powder​

Bellsprout, in my opinion, is easily the best sun sweeper in the tier with its access to Weather Ball and high offensive stats, with it's only obvious issue being the poor defenses. I've opted for a special moveset instead of a physical one so I can abuse Solar Beam / Weather Ball, although a physical set was considered. The problem with a physical set is that it couldn't do "that" much without getting up SD, which is pretty tricky considering it has poor defenses even if were to have an Eviolite, which also explains why there's no Growth on this special set. Although there's good coverage it's obviously not perfect, so Sleep Powder is to be used on anything that can't be KOed (fire types, various Eviolite users, etc) so that I can get a 2HKO and preserve the offensive pressure without having to switch into a counter. Timid > Modest because LO Bellsprout already hits like a truck and the added speed lets me outspeed more Scarfed pokes.

@ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Nature: Modest
EVs: 240SpA / 240Spe
-Solar Beam
-Sludge Bomb
-Hidden Power Fire
-Growth​

Bulbasaur is my second sun sweeper and functions quite differently from Bellsprout. Lack of Weather Ball (with Chlorophyll, anyway) means that HP fire is to be used instead; having this power drop means I'm using Growth to give it (and everything else) a boost. Growth means that I'm free to have an Eviolite instead of a Life Orb, which compliments Growth as it means I'm able to take a hit in order to set it up. Modest instead of Timid because it already reaches the same speed as Timid Bellsprout so I'm able to give it more damage output. Bulbasaur usually functions as the secondary sweeper because Bellsprout has the advantage of being able to apply pressure without the use of a setup move. This works quite well with the fact that by the time I'm finishing up with Bulbasaur their team is likely to be weakened so that it may not even be necessary to use Growth to finish things up. Sleep Powder has been considered but I'm not a fan of having it on both of my sweepers and Bellsprout is definitely the preferred candidate for using it.

@ Berry Juice
Ability: Volt Absorb
Nature: Bold
EVs: 76HP / 212Def / 148SpA / 60Spe
-Volt Switch
-Scald
-Ice Beam
-Heal Bell​

Chinchou is invaluable to the team as it cockblocks a lot of things which threaten the sweepers, with the most popular threat being Fletchling. I've opted for a bulky build rather than using a Scarf because a slow Volt Switch allows me to go into a sweeper safely. Ice Beam is to hit the obvious ground switch-ins that predict Volt Switch, Heal Bell is a relatively new addition and means that Chinchou can support the sweepers in a way other than just dealing with Fletchling/fire stuff. Berry Juice instead of Eviolite because recovery > bulk, but I guess it just comes down to preference. Being able to switch into and handling unboosted priority moves that Bellsprout can't handle is pretty useful, with the exception of Sucker Punch which is one of the teams weaknesses (Mienfoo handles Sucker Punch users quite well). Overall Chinchou does amazingly well at supporting Sprout and Bulba.

@ Berry Juice
Ability: Defeatist
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 76HP / 190Atk / 196Spe
-Acrobatics
-Earthquake
-Rock Tomb
-Defog​

Another poke that stops me from getting wrecked by Fletchling because of how badly it tears Sprout and Bulba to pieces, but it differs from Chinchou in that it won't flop to EQ, although speed tying with jolly Drilbur is unfortunate because it's Rock Slide will KO. Archen's main use is to keep things that the sweepers can't handle in check, and so there's no Stealth Rock here (the horror!) because setting it up would make me lose a lot of needed momentum. If, however, lacking Stealth Rock becomes noticeably horrible then I'll throw it on somehow. Rock Tomb is beautiful here, just don't use it on an incoming Pawniard because only Mienfoo will survive +2 Sucker Punch. I would say that Archen is definitely the weakest link in the team but also one that I can't seem to part with because of the huge Fletchling threat this team has. If I do end up taking this guy out, it'd have to be something that also keeps Fletchling in check.

@ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Nature: Impish
EVs: 156HP / 116Def / 196SpD
-Fake Out
-Drain Punch
-Knock Off
-U-turn​

Mienfoo, one of the most useful pokemon to have in your team. Although Mienfoo doesn't directly support the sun core as noticeably as Chinchou and Archen, it has a lot of things going for it which would otherwise be lacking if he wasn't here, being the only thing with priority and knock off. Once the sun is gone, Mienfoo is usually the go-to guy to get some cheap damage and knock off some stuff before getting back on the offense. He's pretty much needed here to deal with Pawniard, whilst also having synergy with the rest of the team in the form of U-turn which ties nicely with Chinchous Volt Switch as well as safely going into Bellsprout if I'm outsped. I'm using this guy over any other fighting type in the tier due to the amazing staying power it has, one of the bonuses of this is that I can go into it instead of Chinchou/Archen (if the matchup isn't terrible) and preserve their Berry Juice and overall health.
EDIT: Special bulk added (thank you Corporal Levi) so I have answer to Omanyte as well as having an easier time facing Misdreavus.

Threat List​

Snover/Hippopotas - Changing the weather is obviously gonna screw things over, Bellsprout and Bulbasaur become pretty useless. With Snover I can switch into Vulpix and be pretty safe (aside from a HP rock) to get the weather back up or KO with Mienfoo, but realistically I'm gonna be heavily slowed down until it's dead. Hippopotas is way more difficult to kill due to it's bulk and recovery, but Archen is safe assuming it's only damaging move is EQ and Mienfoo can Knock Off to make it easier to deal with. Good thing about all of this is that Snover and Hippopotas aren't too popular.
Fletchling - KOs Bellsprout and Bulbasaur (and Mienfoo) but can be managed quite easily with Chinchou and Archen.
Drilbur - Drilbur can be an issue because they're likely going to lead with it, meaning I can't start right off with Vulpix -> Bellsprout. At best I can wear it down with Mienfoo or risk a speed tie to KO with Archen, assuming it's LO.
Pawniard - Specifically, Sucker Punch is the threat because Weather Ball / HP fire deals with Pawniard. The safe option against Pawniard is to go for Sleep Powder so Sucker Punch doesn't kill the valuable Sprout.
Priority - Bellsprout is too fragile to take hits well (especially with LO), Chinchou and Mienfoo can take priority hits nicely though.
Fire types - Not exactly a threat to a team but just a threat to the sweepers, they can be dealt with pretty easily although they can slow me down depending on what the fire type is.

 

[birdcrest]

Why Rock Tomb instead of Rock Slide/Stone Edge? I mean, I can understand wanting perfect accuracy, but come on.

 

[Frickett]

Rock tomb is for whenever the opponent is obviously going to switch out so that I can guarantee to outspeed, and accuracy is needed on something like Archen since missing can mean it drops down to Defeatist.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Why Rock Tomb instead of Rock Slide/Stone Edge? I mean, I can understand wanting perfect accuracy, but come on.

I hope that you are not saying that Rock Tomb on Archen is bad, sir! I have been using Rock Tomb, the same set even, for a few weeks now and it works wonders. Sure, it isn't as strong as Rock Slide or Stone Edge, but it has it's benefits. The speed drop allows for so many extra KO's that you normally would not be able to get.

Of course now that I actually have to write about it all the examples of times it has come in handy have blanked my mind, but one example that occurs fairly often is with Misdreavus. Archen switches into an attack, and with Stealth Rock up and the damage from the attack it's yummy Berry Juice activates. Tasty. The opponent can't handle Archen, so they switch to Missy to tank it's attack and hit back with the super effective Thunderbolt (or any other move). However, you use Rock Tomb on the switch, lowering it's speed one stage, and therefore allowing you to outspeed that ghost and KO with Acrobatics. Now they have a dead ghost. They thought they could counter, but no. Even if Archen can't stay in to get the KO, you could switch out to something else that could KO, and if your pokemon might normally slower, it is now faster and can safely get that kill. There are so many of these situations that occur, and they are not just a gimmicky ones either; they occur way more often than you would think. So yes, Rock Tomb has slightly less power than Rock Slide. Yes, it doesn't have the end all power of Head Miss Smash. But sometimes you don't need that little bit of extra base power; sometimes you need that strategic speed drop.

I do not mean to say that Rock Slide is at all a bad choice though. It definitely has it's merits and is a great choice at times. I just wanted to point out and give an example of why Rock Tomb is not a bad move.

(I'll add some calcs in a bit to show that it still has enough power. I can't get on PS at school... :( )

I can understand wanting perfect accuracy

Rock Tomb doesn't even have perfect accuracy... It has 95% accuracy... lol

I know this didn't help out with teambuilding at all, so I apologize. I just wanted to defend Rock Tomb like I said.

EDIT: Sash Abra! Take a hit, drink that yummy Berry Juice, and use Rock Tomb to break the sash and lower speed. With the speed drop you can now KO Abra without taking damage and being put into defeatist range!

 

[Frickett]

Aaron's Aron sums it up pretty nicely, the utility Rock Tomb provides is way too useful to not at least be considered over Rock Slide/Stone Edge

 

[Corporal Levi]

This is a really nice sun team! With that being said, there are some Pokemon that your team will have trouble with, a few of which you mentioned yourself.
Drilbur can pose as a huge threat with its STAB Earthquake and possibly Swords Dance. Misdreavus can threaten your team with boosted STAB attacks while your sweepers are unable to OHKO in return. Timburr and Archen will be difficult to switch into. Omanyte, once it sets up a Shell Smash, will be able to easily sweep your team.
With all of these taken into consideration, I think giving Mienfoo a more defensive spread would help immensely. Changing its EV spread to 156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD with an Impish nature will allow it to hit the next eviolite number in Special Defense, drastically increasing its special bulk, and allowing it to check Omanyte and certain variants of Misdreavus much more easily.
To deal with Timburr, I would like to recommend Snubbull over Bulbasaur. Even with a defensive spread, Vulpix's innately low defensive stats coupled with a lack of Eviolite and a weakness to Stealth Rock mean it'll often have difficulty lasting; as such, one sun sweeper will likely suffice, and Bulbasaur is far less potent offensively than Bellsprout. Snubbull can also serve to some degree as an offensive check for Drilbur and Archen, especially since Drilbur gets worn down quite easily.
Snubbull @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Crunch / Close Combat
Play Rough is Snubbull's fairly powerful STAB move, while Earthquake provides excellent coverage alongside it. Thunder Wave and Crunch are to threaten Misdreavus, but Close Combat could also be used for the OHKO on Pawniard.
I also think Vulpix should be changed to more offensive variant. Without any defensive items, Vulpix will still be extremely frail, so I don't think its given moveset/EVs will help it a ton; on the other hand, its raw damage output under the sun is immense, and should be taken advantage of. Blizzardy's analysis lists the spread as 52 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe. As for moves, Confuse Ray is an unreliable option; instead, it might be a good idea to put in a more powerful Fire-type attack such as Fire Blast or Overheat as your filler, for when you need the raw power. Alternatively, HP Rock could be run alongside one Fire-type move to hit opposing Fire-types (and Archen, although Will-o-Wisp would probably be more crippling under most circumstances).

That's it for now. Good luck!

 

[Frickett]

This is a really nice sun team! With that being said, there are some Pokemon that your team will have trouble with, a few of which you mentioned yourself.
Drilbur can pose as a huge threat with its STAB Earthquake and possibly Swords Dance. Misdreavus can threaten your team with boosted STAB attacks while your sweepers are unable to OHKO in return. Timburr and Archen will be difficult to switch into. Omanyte, once it sets up a Shell Smash, will be able to easily sweep your team.

Thanks, I'm glad you like it! Switching into Drilbur safely is near impossible outside Mienfoo, in practice Drilbur has only been an issue as a lead so far, other than that I've managed to deal with it pretty easily. Bellsprout and unboosted Bulbasaur fails to KO Misdreavus but Misdreavus also fails to KO back, I can only see it causing problems if it gets a chance to boost, which has never been the case as of yet. Omanyte is something I haven't encountered much (if at all), but yeah it is very problematic for the team.

With all of these taken into consideration, I think giving Mienfoo a more defensive spread would help immensely. Changing its EV spread to 156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD with an Impish nature will allow it to hit the next eviolite number in Special Defense, drastically increasing its special bulk, and allowing it to check Omanyte and certain variants of Misdreavus much more easily.

This makes a lot of sense, I hadn't put too much thought into my current spread and I shall change it right away, thank you!

To deal with Timburr, I would like to recommend Snubbull over Bulbasaur. Even with a defensive spread, Vulpix's innately low defensive stats coupled with a lack of Eviolite and a weakness to Stealth Rock mean it'll often have difficulty lasting; as such, one sun sweeper will likely suffice, and Bulbasaur is far less potent offensively than Bellsprout. Snubbull can also serve to some degree as an offensive check for Drilbur and Archen, especially since Drilbur gets worn down quite easily.
Snubbull @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Crunch / Close Combat
Play Rough is Snubbull's fairly powerful STAB move, while Earthquake provides excellent coverage alongside it. Thunder Wave and Crunch are to threaten Misdreavus, but Close Combat could also be used for the OHKO on Pawniard.

Despite Vulpix's frailty, 2 sun sweepers has been really good for me so far, losing Bellsprout early on without a backup has always led to me losing, mainly due to focusing the team around it rather than using Vulpix+Bellsprout as an independant sun core. I never let Vulpix die unless I'm making use of both sweepers because Vulpix very rarely sees any actual battle. Getting a Growth boost in the sun allows bulbasaur to do a lot more than what Bellsprout can do, having a lot more KO potential (for example Mienfoo) and even having 43.8% chance to KO Misdreavus.

Snubbull is certainly an interesting choice though, I'm currently looking at replacing either Chinchou or Archen with something to check Drilbur without losing a check to Fletchling. I'm liking how it threatens a lot of other things which have the potential to ruin me as well.

I also think Vulpix should be changed to more offensive variant. Without any defensive items, Vulpix will still be extremely frail, so I don't think its given moveset/EVs will help it a ton; on the other hand, its raw damage output under the sun is immense, and should be taken advantage of. Blizzardy's analysis lists the spread as 52 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe. As for moves, Confuse Ray is an unreliable option; instead, it might be a good idea to put in a more powerful Fire-type attack such as Fire Blast or Overheat as your filler, for when you need the raw power. Alternatively, HP Rock could be run alongside one Fire-type move to hit opposing Fire-types (and Archen, although Will-o-Wisp would probably be more crippling under most circumstances).

That's it for now. Good luck!

Originally I preferred a defensive spread but I'm beginning to lean towards an offensive set, the bulk has been noticeably insignificant when there's no Eviolite to buff things up. HP rock is interesting, I like the sound of it actually, thank you again.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Of the two, I think Chinchou is more expendable than Archen; otherwise, you're incredibly weak to diglett + bird cores. My main qualm with replacing Chinchou is that the likes of physical Ponyta and especially Magnemite might become significantly more difficult to deal with. If you choose to remove Chinchou, I would suggest replacing either Acrobatics or Rock Tomb with Stealth Rock (Earthquake is necessary to hit the very threatening Pawniard on the switch, as well as for general coverage, and defog is needed for a team that relies so heavily on switching) to break Magnemite's Sturdy and weaken Ponyta. The spread should be changed to 76 HP/156 Def/76 SpD/196 Spe with a Jolly nature to account for Archen's more supportive nature, while also allowing it to take a +2 itemless Acrobatics from Fletchling after Stealth Rock now that Archen is your primary Fletchling check; the item can remain as Berry Juice.